Page 1
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` UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
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` CENTRAL DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
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` WESTERN DIVISION
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` CASE NO. 2:14-CV-00486-SJO-(PJWx)
`
`BLACK HILLS MEDIA, INC., )
` )
` Plaintiff )
` )
`VS. )
` )
`SONOS, INC., )
` )
` Defendant )
`--------------------------------
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
`
` Boston, Massachussets
`
` Tuesday, December 9, 2014
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`REPORTED BY:
`
`Sandra A. Deschaine, CSR, RPR, CLR, CRA
`
`Job No. 12950
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`depo@transperfect.com -- 212.400.8845
`
`SONOS 1015 - Page 1
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`
`
` UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
`
` CENTRAL DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
`
` WESTERN DIVISION
`
` CASE NO. 2:14-CV-00486-SJO-(PJWx)
`
`BLACK HILLS MEDIA, INC., )
` )
` Plaintiff )
` )
`VS. )
` )
`SONOS, INC., )
` )
` Defendant )
`--------------------------------
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
`
` Boston, Massachussets
`
` Tuesday, December 9, 2014
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`REPORTED BY:
`
`Sandra A. Deschaine, CSR, RPR, CLR, CRA
`
`Job No. 12950
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`depo@transperfect.com -- 212.400.8845
`
`SONOS 1015 - Page 1
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`Page 2
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` DECEMBER 9, 2014
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` 9:20 A.M.
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` Deposition of Ivan Zatkovich, taken
`
`on behalf of the Defendant, at the law
`
`offices of Hayes Messina Gilman Hayes LLC,
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`200 State Street, Boston, Massachusetts, on
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`Tuesday, December 9, 2014, before Sandra A
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`Deschaine, Certified Shorthand Reporter,
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`Registered Professional Reporter, Certified
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`Live Note Reporter, and Notary Public for the
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`State of Massachusetts.
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`SONOS 1015 - Page 2
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`Page 3
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`APPEARANCES:
`
`ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFF:
`
`HAYES MESSINA GILMAN HAYES LLC
`
` JAMES IACONIS, ESQ.
`
` 200 State Street, 6th Floor
`
` Boston, Massachusetts 02109
`
` T. 617.439.4200 F. 617.443.1999
`
` jiaconis@hayesmessina.com
`
`ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANT:
`
`McCONNELL BOEHNEN HULBERT & BERGHOFF LLP
`
` SEAN M. SULLIVAN, ESQ.
`
` RORY P. SHEA, ESQ.
`
` 300 South Wacker Drive
`
` Chicago, Illinois 60606
`
` T. 312.913.0001 F. 312.912.0002
`
` sullivan@mbhb.com
`
` shea@mbhb.com
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`(Appearances continued)
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`SONOS 1015 - Page 3
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`Page 4
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`APPEARANCES (continued)
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`ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANT:
`
`SONOS, INC.
`
` PAUL A. KADAFAR, ESQ.
`
` In-house counsel
`
` 223 E De La Guerra
`
` Santa Barbara, California 93101
`
` T. 805.308.8234
`
` paul.kadafar@sonos.com
`
`Also Present: Leonard Laub
`
` Sean Budd, Videographer
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` I N D E X
`
`---------------------------------------------
`WITNESSES: PAGE
`--------------------------------------------
`
`Ivan Zatkovich 7
`
` By Mr. Sullivan
`
`---------------------------------------------
`EXHIBITS: DESCRIPTION PAGE
`---------------------------------------------
`
`ZATKOVICH EXHIBITS
`
`Exhibit 1 Rebuttal Expert Report of
` Ivan Zatkovich 10
`
`Exhbiit 2 Expert Report of Andrew
` Wolfe 31
`
`Exhibit 3 Table of Contents 32
`
`Exhibit 4 Wheeler Patent No. '283 34
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`Exhibit 5 Goldberg Patent No. '740 35
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`Exhibit 6 Chang Patent No. '517 35
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`Exhibit 7 Chang Patent No. '739 35
`
`Exhibit 8 McAulay Patent No '910 59
`
`Exhibit 9 Lipscomb Patent No.
` 2002/0026411 78
`
`Exhibit 10 Central District of
` California, Civil Minutes -
` General 106
`
`Exhibit 11 Edens Patent No. '537 157
`
`Exhibit 12 Kowalski Patent No. '410 186
`
`Exhibit 13 Microsoft Dictionary,
` Fifth Edition 204
`
`Exhibit 14 Thomas Patent No. '773 244
`
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`SONOS 1015 - Page 5
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the
`
`record. This is the video operator
`
`speaking Shawn Budd, with TransPerfect
`
`Legal Solutions. Today's date is
`
`December 9, 2014. And the time is 9:20
`
`a.m. We are here in Boston,
`
`Massachusetts, to take the video
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`deposition of Ivan Zatkovich in the
`
`matter of Black Hills Media versus
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`Sonos, Inc.
`
` Would counsel please introduce
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`themselves?
`
` MR. SULLIVAN: Sean Sullivan from
`
`McDonnell, Boehenen, Hulbert & Berghoff
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`on behalf of Sonos.
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` MR. SHEA: Rory Shea from
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`McDonnell, Boehnen, Hulbert & Berghoff
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`also on behalf of Sonos.
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` MR. KAFADAR: Paul Kafadar,
`
`in-house for Sonos.
`
` MR. IACONIS: James Iaconis
`
`representing Black Hills Media. Also
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`with me is Leonard Laub.
`
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: And the court
`
`reporter is Sandy Deschaine.
`
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`SONOS 1015 - Page 6
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` Would you please swear in the
`
` witness?
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH, Deponent, having
`
`first been satisfactorily identified by the
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`production of his Florida driver's license
`
`and duly sworn by the Notary Public, was
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`examined and testified as follows:
`
` EXAMINATION
`
`BY MR. SULLIVAN:
`
` Q. Good morning. Is it Zatkovich?
`
`Am I pronouncing that right?
`
` A. Zatkovich, yeah.
`
` Q. Are you currently employed?
`
` A. I am.
`
` Q. By who?
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` A. eComp Consultants.
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` Q. How long have you worked at eComp
`
`Consultants?
`
` A. Approximately ten years.
`
` Q. Where did you work before that?
`
` A. Prior to that I worked at Smith &
`
`Nephew.
`
` Q. And what kind of business is Smith
`
`& Nephew?
`
` A. Smith & Nephew is in medical
`
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`SONOS 1015 - Page 7
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`Page 8
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`supplies.
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` Q. Did you say it was eComp?
`
` A. eComp.
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` Q. And what kind of consulting does
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`eComp do?
`
` A. eComp does technology consulting
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`project management for software integration,
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`as well as doing some litigation support.
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` Q. How big is eComp?
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` A. eComp? Five employees and about a
`
`dozen consultants.
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` Q. What position do you hold there?
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` A. I'm the principal consultant.
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` Q. I take it there's only one
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`principal consultant?
`
` A. That's correct.
`
` Q. Have you given any testimony
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`before at trial in a deposition?
`
` A. I have.
`
` Q. How many times?
`
` A. Approximately 18 or 20 depositions
`
`and five or six trials.
`
` Q. Okay.
`
` So you probably know the ground
`
`rules for the deposition so I won't go
`
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`SONOS 1015 - Page 8
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`through those in any detail today.
`
` Is there anything preventing you
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`from giving complete and accurate testimony
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`today?
`
` A. No. Just getting over a cold so
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`I'm a little congested, but aside from that,
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`I see no reason why not.
`
` Q. If you need a break at anytime
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`today, just let me know. Okay?
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` A. Okay.
`
` Q. Have you discussed this lawsuit
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`with anyone other than Black Hills Media's
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`lawyers?
`
` A. Yes. I've had two or three
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`consultants that I work with on this case.
`
` Q. Okay.
`
` Who are they?
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` A. Leonard Laub, Nick Zatkovich, and
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`Marvin Scaff.
`
` Q. And Leonard Laub is the gentleman
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`sitting in this room?
`
` A. That's correct.
`
` Q. And who did the other consultants
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`work for?
`
` A. They all work through eComp
`
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`Consultants.
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` Q. Is Nick your son?
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` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Did you talk with anyone else?
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` A. Not that I recall, no.
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` MR. SULLIVAN: Okay. I'm going to
`
` mark...
`
` THE REPORTER: You're going to do
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` it?
`
` MR. SULLIVAN: Yeah, I'll do it.
`
` Oh, you like to do it? I'm not use to
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` such fancy service but.
`
`(Zatkovich Exhibit 1, Rebuttal Expert Report
`
` of Ivan Zatkovich, marked for
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` identification.)
`
`BY MR. SULLIVAN:
`
` Q. Okay.
`
` I'm showing you what I've now
`
`marked as Deposition Exhibit 1. Ask you to
`
`look at that, please.
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` MR. SULLIVAN: I only brought one
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` copy for you.
`
` MR. IACONIS: That's fine.
`
`BY MR. SULLIVAN:
`
` Q. Take your time and look through
`
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`SONOS 1015 - Page 10
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`that. But my question for you is going to be
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`if to you know what that is?
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`(Witness reviewing document.)
`
` A. I do.
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` Q. Can you tell me what it is?
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` A. It is the report that I prepared
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`in rebuttal to the Wolfe Invalidity Report.
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` MR. SULLIVAN: W-o-l-f-e.
`
`BY MR. SULLIVAN:
`
` Q. So that's your Rebuttal Report for
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`this litigation; correct?
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. Let's take a look -- do you see a
`
`couple tabs there at the end of that Exhibit
`
`1?
`
` A. I do.
`
` Q. Can you tell me what Exhibit 1 is?
`
`Or the Tab 1 to Exhibit 1 is?
`
` A. Tab 1 is my CV and a list of cases
`
`where I testified in the last five years, I
`
`believe.
`
` Q. Okay.
`
` Is this CV accurate and up to
`
`date?
`
` A. Yes, I'd say so.
`
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` Q. Is there anything you're aware of
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`that's missing on this CV?
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` A. No, I don't believe so.
`
` Q. If you would turn to the list of
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`cases in your CV.
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` A. Sure.
`
` Q. First of all, it says, "Sample
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`Cases."
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` Do you see that?
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` A. Oh, in my CV.
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` Q. Yeah. I'm sorry. It's in your
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`CV.
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` A. Yes, I see that.
`
` Q. What did you mean by "Sample
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`Cases"?
`
` A. Just a cross section of cases that
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`I've worked on.
`
` Q. Are there other cases that you've
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`worked on recently that aren't listed here?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Do you have a complete list of
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`cases that you've worked on in the last,
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`let's say, four years?
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` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Where would that be?
`
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` A. That would be at the end of my CV.
`
` Q. Is this a complete list for the
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`last five years?
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` A. Yes, I believe so.
`
` Q. So just looking at the sample
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`cases.
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` Zomora Radio Case. Do you see
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`that?
`
` A. I do.
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` Q. It seems to indicate here that
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`this case involved a broadcast or
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`broadcasting; is that right?
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` A. Yes, Internet broadcasting.
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` Q. Did you provided a definition of
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`broadcast in that case?
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` A. I don't recall.
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` Q. Did you issue a report, an expert
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`report in that case?
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` A. I did.
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` Q. Were you deposed in that case?
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` A. I was.
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` Q. How about trial testimony, did you
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`give any in that case?
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` A. No.
`
` Q. And the next case down is Vtran
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`Media Case.
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` Do you see that?
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` A. Yes.
`
` Q. It looks like the term "channel"
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`is mentioned there as one of the issues
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`involved in that case?
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` A. Correct.
`
` Q. Did you provide a definition of
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`"channel" in that case?
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` A. I don't recall.
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` Q. How about any reports or testimony
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`for that case, did you have any?
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` A. I was only the consulting expert
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`on that case.
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` Q. So no reports, no testimony?
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` A. Correct.
`
` Q. Then how about the eBay (Skype)
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`case? Do those cases involve network address
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`resolution and data routing?
`
` A. That's correct.
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` Q. What is network address
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`resolution?
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` A. The ability to identify the
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`location of a URL, and URI, or an IP address
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`based on a link provided within a web page.
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`SONOS 1015 - Page 14
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` Q. Okay.
`
` What's a URL?
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` A. A URL is Universal Resource
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`Locator. It's also known as a web address.
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` Q. And how about a URI?
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` A. A URI is a more broad type of web
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`address. It complied to documents, pages,
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`resources. It looks similar to a URL.
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` Q. What does URI stand for?
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` A. Universal Resource Identifier, I
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`believe.
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` Q. Did any of the cases that you
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`worked on, as far as you can recall, involve
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`ad-hoc networking?
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` A. I do recall -- actually, it's one
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`that I just completed the report for. Here
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`it is. Certus versus S&N. We had some mesh
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`networks involved in that technology.
`
` Q. Okay.
`
` Is that listed in your testimonial
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`history here, or is it in the "Sample Cases"?
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`I'm just having a trouble finding it.
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` A. It's in the testimonial of
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`history.
`
` Q. Whereabouts?
`
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` A. The last page, third from the
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`bottom.
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` Q. Have you been deposed in that
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`case?
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` A. No.
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` Q. I think you said you did issue a
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`report in that case?
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` A. Correct.
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` Q. Did you define the term "ad-hoc
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`networking" in that case?
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` A. No, I don't recall. It was a
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`secondary technology.
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` Q. What was the primary technology?
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` A. Geolocation and being able to
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`identify underground facilities.
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` Q. And how was ad-hoc networking
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`related to that?
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` A. Primarily, it was a means for the
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`geolocation and location devices to
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`intercommunicate. Mesh network was one of
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`the methods that could perform that.
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` Q. Was there a particular protocol
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`they used to communicate with each other?
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` A. 802.11 was the base protocol that
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`was used.
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`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
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`SONOS 1015 - Page 16
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` Q. Do you have any expertise with
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`Bluetooth?
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` A. I do.
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` Q. What expertise?
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` A. I've had the opportunity to work
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`several different projects involving
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`device-to-device connectivity, involving both
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`ad-hoc networks and Bluetooth communication.
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` Q. Is Bluetooth and ad-hoc networking
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`technology?
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` A. Bluetooth in certain
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`circumstances, can be used to develop an
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`ad-hoc network but in very specific
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`situations.
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` Q. What are those situations?
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` A. Well, wireless ad-hoc network must
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`be both peer-to-peer connectivity, as well as
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`each node participating in the routing.
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`Bluetooth, by default is a point-to-point
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`device communication. You can also establish
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`what's called a piconet, p-i-c-o-n-e-t, that
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`is a master slave, that's not a true wireless
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`ad-hoc network. But in some circumstances
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`you can use Bluetooth to create a
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`peer-to-peer network where both nodes can
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`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
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`SONOS 1015 - Page 17
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`participate in the communication.
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` Q. Don't both nodes in a peer-to-peer
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`Bluetooth connection always participate?
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` A. Bluetooth, by default, is not a
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`peer-to-peer network.
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` Q. Why is that?
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` A. Because it's set up as
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`point-to-point, by default, connecting two
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`devices, and, in some rare circumstances, you
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`can expand it in a piconet and even more rare
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`circumstances you can develop it as a
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`peer-to-peer.
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` Q. Okay.
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` What's the difference between
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`peer-to-peer and point-to-point?
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` A. Point-to-point is just too
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`modes -- two specific destinations. Peer to
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`peer is when two nodes want to establish a
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`channel of connectivity. That could be a
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`point-to-point as well, but peer-to-peer
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`network is generally a multipoint
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`connectivity.
`
` Q. Have you heard the term
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`point-to-multi-point?
`
` A. Not specifically, no.
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`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
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`
`SONOS 1015 - Page 18
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` Q. So that's mentioned in the
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`BlueTooth specification; you agree?
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` A. There's one of many noticed. I
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`don't recall the actual term
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`point-to-multi-point. There's a master
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`slave, which I believe you're referring to.
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` Q. Master slave would be
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`point-to-point; right?
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` A. Master slave can be point-to-point
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`or one to many. One master to many slaves.
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`That, for example, would not be a wireless
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`ad-hoc network.
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` Q. But a point-to-point BlueTooth
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`connection would be an ad-hoc network;
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`correct?
`
` A. Some people call it a BlueTooth
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`ad-hoc network. It would not be what's
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`considered in the industry a wireless ad-hoc
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`network.
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` Q. There's a difference between a
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`wireless ad-hoc network and BlueTooth ad-hoc
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`network?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Is BlueTooth a wireless
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`technology?
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`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
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`
`SONOS 1015 - Page 19
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. So what's the difference, in your
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`opinion, between a BlueTooth ad-hoc network
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`and a BlueTooth wireless?
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` A. Well, as I mentioned before, in
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`the industry, the wireless ad-hoc network
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`peer-to-peer connectivity with each node
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`participating in the route. That's not
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`possible with a BlueTooth master slave or
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`point-to-point network.
`
` Q. Again, I guess I'm having trouble
`
`understanding your difference between
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`peer-to-peer and point-to-point.
`
` When you only have two devices, is
`
`that a point-to-point connection?
`
` MR. IACONIS: Objection as to
`
` form.
`
` THE WITNESS: A point-to-point by
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` definition is two and only two
`
` connections. Peer-to-peer could be two,
`
` three, four, five.
`
`BY MR. SULLIVAN:
`
` Q. But would it not be true that when
`
`there's only on two devices connecting to
`
`each other, that that point-to-point
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`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
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`SONOS 1015 - Page 20
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`connection is also a peer-to-peer connection?
`
` A. It's possible, but, again, in the
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`industry, peer-to-peer means you establish a
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`set of connectivity rules such that multiple
`
`entities can participate.
`
` Q. Multiple entities can participate
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`in BlueTooth; correct?
`
` A. By default, it would be master
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`slave.
`
` Q. But those roles can be exchanged
`
`freely in BlueTooth; correct?
`
` MR. IACONIS: Object to form.
`
` THE WITNESS: I don't believe
`
` that's true.
`
`BY MR. SULLIVAN:
`
` Q. You don't believe in BlueTooth
`
`that the master slave roles can be exchanged?
`
` A. Not dynamically.
`
` Q. So you said there was a couple
`
`projections you worked on where BlueTooth was
`
`involved?
`
` A. BlueTooth and mesh networks, yes.
`
` Q. Do you know how long ago that was?
`
` A. One project was approximately a
`
`year-and-a-half ago and the other project was
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
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`SONOS 1015 - Page 21
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`probably six or seven years ago.
`
` Q. And were there any other projects
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`that you've worked on where BlueTooth was
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`involved?
`
` A. Well, projects where BlueTooth
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`devices were used, but I wasn't designing or
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`developing any BlueTooth protocols.
`
` Q. Have you ever designed or
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`developed a BlueTooth protocol?
`
` A. Yes, in the projects that I
`
`discussed.
`
` Q. Were those projects that involved
`
`BlueTooth, were they litigation in nature?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Are they identified in your CV?
`
` A. They might be. Well, one was done
`
`as part of utility consulting for eComp, and
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`the other one was done as part of a Darwin
`
`project that I did for a client. They would
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`be done both at eComp. I don't know if those
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`projects were listed specifically.
`
` Q. Well, you have your CV in front of
`
`you.
`
` Do you recognize those projects as
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`being identified?
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
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`
`SONOS 1015 - Page 22
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` A. No, we just have general
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`categories of consulting. I don't list the
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`specific clients or projects.
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` Q. What category of consulting the
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`BlueTooth technology fall under?
`
` A. Patent litigation consulting for
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`telecommunications and Internet technology
`
`patents.
`
` Q. But this work you did for
`
`BlueTooth technology, you said wasn't related
`
`to litigation?
`
` A. It was related to patents but not
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`litigation.
`
` Q. Do you consider yourself an expert
`
`in BlueTooth technology?
`
` A. I consider myself knowledgeable in
`
`BlueTooth technology.
`
` Q. But not an expert?
`
` A. I consider myself knowledgeable.
`
`I don't know what level of expertise you
`
`would be looking for in that, but I
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`understand the protocol, and I can compare it
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`to other protocols.
`
` Q. You don't understand the term
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`"expert"?
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`depo@transperfect.com -- 212.400.8845
`
`SONOS 1015 - Page 23
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` A. I do.
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` Q. Well, I mean, with your
`
`understanding of the term "expert," do you
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`consider yourself an expert in BlueTooth
`
`technology?
`
` A. Sure.
`
` Q. And that expertise is based on
`
`these two projects?
`
` A. These two projects and the study
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`of various communication protocols.
`
` Q. Have you studied BlueTooth?
`
` A. Sure.
`
` Q. Have you read the specification?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. In its entirety?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. When was the last time you did
`
`that?
`
` A. Oh, probably -- probably the last
`
`time I read the spec in its entirety was
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`about six years ago when I worked on the
`
`first project.
`
` Q. When is the last time you read any
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`portion of the BlueTooth specification?
`
` A. Probably yesterday.
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
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`
`SONOS 1015 - Page 24
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` Q. What is your compensation for the
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`work you're doing in this case?
`
` A. I'm sure I listed it. I believe
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`it's $475 an hour.
`
` Q. Is that your usual and customary
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`rate?
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