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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` __________
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` __________
` SONY COMPUTER ENTERTAINMENT AMERICA LLC
` Petitioner
` v.
` APLIX IP HOLDINGS CORPORATION
` Patent Owner
` __________
` Case No. IPR2015-00533
` Case No. IPR2015-00476
` Case No. IPR2015-00396
` Patent No. 7,218,313
` __________
`
` DEPOSITION OF DR. GREGORY F. WELCH
` VOLUME I, PAGES 1 - 87
` AUGUST 19, 2015
`
` (The following is the deposition of DR.
`GREGORY F. WELCH, taken pursuant to agreement of
`counsel, at the Hyatt Regency Orlando International
`Airport Hotel, Orlando, Florida, commencing at
`approximately 9:57 o'clock a.m., August 19, 2015.)
`
`STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES
`MINNEAPOLIS, MN 1-800-553-1953 info@stire
`
`

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`APPEARANCES:
` On Behalf of the Petitioner:
` Abran Kean
` ERISE IP
` 5600 Greenwood Plaza Boulevard, Suite 200
` Greenwood Village, Colorado 80111
`
` On Behalf of the Patent Owner:
`
` Robert J. Gilbertson
` GREENE ESPEL PLLP
` Campbell Mithun Tower, Suite 2200
` 222 South Ninth Street
` Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402-3362
`
`ALSO APPEARING:
`
` Callie Pendergrass, Senior Technical
` Advisor, Erise IP
`
` I N D E X
`EXHIBITS DESCRIPTION PAGE MARKED
`Ex 2006 Four-page excerpt of Willner
` Patent 5,874,906 with handwritten
` notations 74
`
`Page 3
`
` P R O C E E D I N G S
` (Witness sworn.)
` DR. GREGORY F. WELCH
` called as a witness, first duly sworn,
` was examined and testified as follows:
` ADVERSE EXAMINATION
`BY MR. GILBERTSON:
` Q. Welcome back, Dr. Welch.
` A. Thank you.
` Q. You've been retained as an expert witness by
`Sony Computer Entertainment America and have provided
`declarations or direct testimony in seven IPR
`proceedings relating to APLIX; is that right?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. That includes IPR proceedings relating to
`the '245 and '692 patents, and you gave your
`deposition on those two declarations on July 28 and 29
`here in Orlando; is that correct?
` A. That sounds right. I don't remember the
`dates, but I'll take your word for it.
` Q. Okay. And you also represent SDEA in
`connection with three different IPRs challenging U.S.
`Patent No. 7,218,313, and for the record I'll just
`note those are IPR2015-00396, IPR2015-00476, and
`IPR2015-00533; is that right?
`
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`STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES
`MINNEAPOLIS, MN 1-800-553-1953 info@stirewalt.com
`
` A. That's correct.
` Q. And you're here today to give your
`deposition in connection with those three declarations
`that you submitted in those three IPRs.
` A. That's correct.
` Q. And just for the record, by agreement of the
`parties we'll have one deposition and one transcript
`for all three of those. All transcripts from the case
`can be filed as exhibits in all of the IPRs. I think
`the idea was that that would reduce the burden on
`witnesses and reduce duplication. Many of the
`references at issue in the '313 IPRs are the same as
`references that were at issue in the '245 and '692
`IPRs, so we don't necessarily have to cover everything
`every time.
` Are you ready to begin, Dr. Welch?
` A. Yes. Thank you.
` Q. Do you have in front of you the three
`declarations? And for the record I'll note in the
`00396 IPR it's Exhibit 1013, in the 00476 IPR it's
`Exhibit 1009, and in the 00533 IPR it's Exhibit 1008.
`Do you have all those?
` A. I do.
` Q. And do those declarations contain true and
`complete statements of your testimony and opinions
`Page 5
`
`relating to these IPRs?
` A. Yes, they do, at the time of the writing for
`sure.
` Q. And is there something that's come up since
`that's caused you to believe that there was an error
`or something incomplete about them?
` A. No.
` Q. Who wrote those declarations?
` MR. KEAN: Objection to the extent it calls
`for protected information.
` A. So I don't know how much we can rely on the
`previous deposition that we did back on the 18th, but,
`you know, my answer would be the same as then, which
`is that the intellectual content -- certainly all the
`technical intellectual content came from the -- out of
`discussions. You know, some of it I may have
`handwritten, some of it someone else may have hand-
`drafted, but it's all intellectually mine. The
`legal --
` And this is -- this is not specific to this
`necessarily because I don't want to convey -- or break
`confidences in any way, but that's the way I typically
`work, is we talk, I respond to questions, I give
`ideas, and then we draft somehow together, and
`that's -- I believe that's how we did it here.
`2 (Pages 2 to 5)
`
`

`
`Page 6
`1
` Q. And just so you know, the testimony from the
`2
`'245 and '692 IPRs will be available in this
`3
`proceeding as well.
`4
` It sounds like the process you used to
`5
`create the three declarations for the '313 patent is
`6
`about the same as the process you used for the '245
`7
`and '692 declarations.
`8
` A. That's correct, yeah. As I -- as I said,
`9
`that's the way I typically work and I believe that's
`10
`the way we did it here, yeah.
`11
` Q. So as with the '245 and '692 IPRs, am I
`12
`right that your declarations in the '313 patent IPRs
`13
`do not include opinions about how particular claim
`14
`terms in the '313 patent should be construed?
`15
` A. I don't think that they do. I don't recall
`16
`that. I think I refer to proposed constructions,
`17 maybe, in the -- if I could refer to the 00533
`18
`declaration as the 00533 declaration, I think in there
`19
`I refer to proposed constructions by the petitioner,
`20
`and it's my understanding that -- since then that the
`21
`board has adopted those constructions. But beyond
`22
`that, I have not, that I recall, offered an opinion on
`23
`any claim construction.
`24
` MR. GILBERTSON: This is a question for
`25
`counsel for SDEA. It occurred to me that the
`
`Page 7
`transcripts might be more usable for the judges if,
`when we refer to the 396, 476 and 533, that the
`transcript would show those with the two zeroes
`preceding the numbers so it doesn't look like three
`different patents.
` MR. KEAN: Sure. Yeah, I think that's a
`good solution. I think that makes good sense.
` MR. GILBERTSON: Okay. Thank you.
` THE WITNESS: I'll try and refer to them in
`that way also.
` MR. GILBERTSON: I guess what I'm suggesting
`is even if you don't, that if, by agreement of
`counsel, and presuming the court reporter is okay with
`it, that the trans -- even if we say "the 533
`declaration," it will be transcribed as "00533." Does
`that make sense?
` THE WITNESS: I understand. That makes
`sense and I like it.
` MR. KEAN: Yeah. I think that's a good
`idea.
`BY MR. GILBERTSON:
` Q. Let me ask you about the 00396 declaration,
`paragraph 14.
` A. Okay.
` Q. In this paragraph you list materials that
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`STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES
`MINNEAPOLIS, MN 1-800-553-1953 info@stirewalt.com
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`Page 8
`you analyzed in connection with your work on the 00396
`declaration; is that right?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. And I'm going to have some questions for you
`today about Pallakoff and Ishihara. They're listed in
`the 00396 declaration as Exhibits 1006 and 1007; is
`that right?
` Are you having trouble finding them?
` A. I'm having trouble finding Ishihara.
` Q. It's the next one right below Pallakoff.
` A. Yes, I see it. Okay. It doesn't --
` "Certified English Translation..." I got
`it. Thank you.
` Q. And just for the record, I'll note that
`Pallakoff is Exhibit 1004 in the 00476 IPR and also
`Exhibit 1004 in the 00533 IPR, and Ishihara is not
`used in the 00476 IPR but is Exhibit 1005 in the 00533
`IPR.
` Dr. Welch, how did Pallakoff initially come
`to your attention?
` MR. KEAN: Objection to the extent it calls
`for privileged information and protected information.
` A. I don't recall, as I think I've said before.
`I looked at and discussed a lot of art -- which is
`typical for me if I do something like this -- with the
`Page 9
`petitioner, and together decided that some was better
`than others for this purpose. But specifically, I
`don't recall.
` Q. Same answer for Ishihara?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Let me ask you to turn in --
` Actually, please turn to the 00533
`declaration to paragraph 33.
` A. Okay.
` Q. And this paragraph appears within the
`section of your 00533 declaration on Background of the
`Technology. You cite a couple of exhibits in -- well
`let me back up.
` Paragraph 33 of your 00533 declaration has
`to do with touchscreens generally; right?
` A. Generally, yes, I believe that's correct.
` Q. And you cite a couple of exhibits in that
`paragraph, one of which is referred to as Sears,
`Exhibit 1026; is that right?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. If you could have a look at the third
`sentence of your declaration that begins, "The use
`of..."
` A. The third sentence in 33, paragraph 33?
` Q. Yes.
`
`3 (Pages 6 to 9)
`
`

`
`Page 10
`
` A. Okay.
` Q. And just so it's easy for someone reading
`the testimony, I'll read that sentence into the
`record. Quote, "The use of sliding gestures on touch
`surfaces for various applications, including games,
`was common at least as early as 1990, and was
`understood to offer 'a more powerful method of input
`than either target selection or direct manipulation.'"
`Did I read that correctly?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And for that proposition you cite both of
`the exhibits noted in that paragraph, the first of
`which is Sears, Exhibit 1026, at page 17; is that
`right?
` A. I believe that is correct.
` Q. That's what it says on the page; right?
` A. That's right.
` Q. Okay. Let me hand you just now a copy of
`Exhibit 1026, which is Sears, and ask you to look at
`page 17 that you cited in the declaration. Let me
`know when you're there.
` A. Okay.
` Q. And the part of Sears that you quote in the
`sentence I read from your declaration appears in the
`first full paragraph on internal page 17 of the Sears
`Page 11
`
`reference -- the Sears article; is that right?
` A. "Internal" means the --
` Do you mean the original page numbers in the
`article as opposed to the exhibit page?
` Q. Yeah. That's the issue with these exhibits
`is --
` A. Okay.
` Q. -- it's exhibit page 18 but the internal or
`intrinsic page is 17.
` A. Okay.
` Q. And the part that you quoted is in that
`first full paragraph on page 17 of Sears?
` A. Yes, that appears to be correct.
` Q. And that paragraph does not specifically
`refer to sliding gestures; does it? Instead, the
`words that it uses are "free hand input;" is that
`correct?
` A. That's correct. That sentence starts with
`"Free hand input...," which is, in my mind, defined
`earlier in the preceding paragraph on the preceding
`page, which would be -- would be the last paragraph of
`the intrinsic page 16, where, for example, it says,
`"Free hand input allows users to move their hands
`across the screen with every location they touch being
`used as input." And the next sentence says, "Gestures
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`Page 12
`allow users to draw shapes or letters which are used
`as input." So just as one example, you know, those
`would all involve sliding gestures, as would the -- I
`guess it's the fourth sentence, which says, "Free hand
`input includes tasks like drawing in a graphics
`package...," and so on, which would all involve
`sliding your finger across the screen.
` Q. The part from Sears that you quoted includes
`the phrase "target selection." Do you see that in the
`first full paragraph on intrinsic page 17 of the Sears
`reference, Exhibit --
` A. I do.
` Q. -- 1026?
` A. I do.
` Q. That's not referring to targets of a game;
`is it? That's talking about something you find on a
`screen that you want to do something with.
` A. I don't recall. And I could look further
`through Sears for a definition, but what I say, that
`seems plausible. So it could include something in a
`game but more generally would be as you described, I
`think, just -- you know, sitting here right now just
`reading that sentence without looking further in the
`Sears exhibit.
` Q. And the paragraph we're talking about, the
`Page 13
`first full paragraph on intrinsic page 17 of Sears,
`Exhibit 1026 in the 00533 IPR, that comes up in the
`context of talking about input generally. There's
`nothing specific in that context about games; is
`there?
` A. I don't recall. I would have to look more
`carefully. But, you know, based just on the title of
`the article, which is "A new era for touchscreen
`applications," I believe the methods described would
`be universal or pervasive across any applications, but
`I don't recall that there was any specific application
`beyond the ones I just mentioned, like drawing or
`graphics packages.
` Q. In section 4.4 of the Sears reference,
`Exhibit 1026 in the 00533 IPR that starts on intrinsic
`page 16 and finishes on intrinsic page 17, that
`section isn't specific to games; is it?
` A. That is correct. I don't think that it's,
`you know, specific to anything. It appears to be --
`and again, this is just based on a quick read here --
`general teaching about different -- as it says, many
`novel applications, but not -- nothing specific that I
`can see about games.
` Q. Let me ask you about your 00533 declaration,
`paragraph 34, the next paragraph after the one we were
`4 (Pages 10 to 13)
`
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`

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`Page 14
`just discussing. Do you have that in front of you?
` A. I do.
` Q. The first sentence of your paragraph 34
`reads, quote, "It was generally recognized that using
`touchscreen input mechanisms with any computing device
`created usability issues, including lack of precision,
`high error rates, figures obscuring detain on the
`screen, and the screen smudging." Did I read that
`correctly?
` A. You did.
` Q. And you cite for that the Preece document
`that's Exhibit 1011 in the 00533 IPR; is that right?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. Let me show you a copy of that exhibit. The
`one I'm handing you happens to be from the -- it
`happens to be an exhibit in the 00396 matter, which is
`Exhibit 1016, but it's the same document. And you
`cited page 218 of Preece. Can you turn to that page
`within the Preece exhibit, please.
` A. Okay.
` Q. So I think the material we're talking about
`appears in the second paragraph on intrinsic page 218
`of the Preece exhibit, 00533 IPR Exhibit 1011.
` And I think we've figured out the typo that
`we talked about in connection with the other IPRs
`Page 15
`where your declaration uses the word "detain." Am I
`right that you meant to say "detail?"
` A. That sounds entirely plausible. Where is
`that in my declaration?
` Q. It's in that sentence I just read, first
`sentence of paragraph 34.
` A. Oh. Yes. Absolutely. It must be "detail."
` Q. And then in the middle of the second
`paragraph of intrinsic page 218 of Preece it uses
`similar language, including fingers obscuring detail
`on the screen. Do you see that?
` A. I do.
` Q. Okay. Obviously, no big deal on the typo, I
`just wanted to make sure we were looking --
` A. Yes.
` Q. -- at the same thing.
` Preece cites the usability issues that you
`note in your declaration and it also cites one more:
`arm fatigue; is that right?
` A. That's right. The first part of that
`paragraph is describing good things, and starting at
`that point Preece is describing bad things, and you're
`right, he also describes arm fatigue in the next
`sentence.
` Q. So of the bad things or downsides of
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`STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES
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`Page 16
`1
`touchscreens, if you put the touchscreen on the back
`2
`of a device, would I be right that that might do
`3
`something about fingers obscuring detail on the screen
`4
`and screen smudging, but wouldn't in itself do
`5
`anything about the lack of precision, the high error
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`rates or the arm fatigue? Is that correct?
`7
` A. That's a -- you know, that's a very broad
`8
`question, so I would say broadly that all of those
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`things depend on every aspect of the system, not any
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`one thing, so -- and, you know, I think Preece would
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`agree that those are very broad, general
`12
`characterizations. So it would depend on what was
`13
`drawn on the screen, you know, how the device was
`14 meant to be held and all sorts of other things. So
`15
`it's hard to answer with any definitive answer. It's
`16
`a very broad question, it depends on a lot of
`17
`different factors, some of which are listed here, but
`18
`not all of them.
`19
` Q. Well it's easy to say that if you put the
`20
`touchscreen on the back, you won't have fingers
`21
`obscuring the detail on the screen; right?
`22
` Isn't that issue one where you've got a
`23
`finger between your eyes and the screen?
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` A. That's true. Your physical finger,
`25
`absolutely, would not be in front of the screen. If
`Page 17
`there's a screen on the front of the device and your
`hands are on the back of the device, then obviously
`your fingers would not be obscuring anything on the
`display. If the display is opaque that is; you know,
`for example, is not transparent.
` Q. But that step of taking a touchscreen and
`putting it on the back instead of the front, you can't
`say that by itself that would do anything to deal with
`the other problems that Preece identified: lack of
`precision, high error rates, and arm fatigue.
` A. It's -- it's hard to say. I wouldn't say
`that it can't. It might play a role. What I mean to
`say is that there's nothing here that I can think of
`sitting here right now, aside from the potential point
`that you just mentioned, that would exclusively or by
`itself address those problems, that the mitigation of
`any of those problems is usually done by a combination
`of a lot of different design factors.
` Q. The Preece exhibit, 00533 IPR Exhibit 1011
`at intrinsic page 218, also notes that there was a
`survey that implied that of various cursor control
`devices studied, touchscreen was the fastest but least
`accurate; is that right?
` A. I'm sorry, can you point me to that on that
`page?
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`Page 18
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` Q. Yes. Just the next sentence after the one
`2
`we've been looking at before.
`3
` A. Oh, I see it. Sorry.
`4
` Q. So Preece cites this study about
`5
`touchscreens perhaps being the fastest but least
`6
`accurate of the cursor control devices studied.
`7
` A. That's right, as of 1987. And Preece says
`8
`the study implied that of the various cursor control
`9
`devices studied, touchscreen was the fastest but least
`10
`accurate. So at that point in time with whatever they
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`used, that was apparently Muratore's -- I guess it is,
`12 M-u-r-a-t-o-r-e -- his or her conclusion in that
`13
`article.
`14
` Q. Okay. You can put the Preece exhibit aside.
`15
` One of your opinions or areas of opinion in
`16
`connection with the '313 patent is that you think it
`17
`would have been obvious to a person of ordinary skill
`18
`to combine the Pallakoff and Ishihara references; is
`19
`that right?
`20
` A. That is correct.
`21
` Q. And you address that in your 00396
`22
`declaration at paragraphs 50 through 56.
`23
` A. Yes, section E. That is certainly at least
`24
`one place there. It's possible that I offer opinions
`25
`about that in some way in other places, but that is
`Page 19
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`certainly one place.
` Q. That's where the heading is, isn't it, just
`before paragraph 50?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Let me hand you a copy of Pallakoff. I'll
`just note for the record that in the 00396 IPR
`Pallakoff is Exhibit 1006, in the 00476 and 00533 IPRs
`it is Exhibit 1004.
` You reviewed Pallakoff; is that right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Was size of the device a constraint that
`Pallakoff's inventor was concerned about?
` A. I don't recall.
` Q. Could you look at Pallakoff's paragraph
`0005, please.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Does that remind you that Pallakoff's
`inventor felt that size was a key constraint in the
`design of handheld devices?
` A. That is certainly what Pallakoff says there.
`I mean I think that whole section -- it's a background
`section, so he's referring to lots of different
`constraints, I think, or different criteria as any
`person of ordinary skill would understand, that size
`is certainly a consideration, as you're right,
`
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`Pallakoff says there.
` Q. Well he says it's the key constraint;
`doesn't he?
` A. He does say that.
` Q. Could you turn to the abstract of Pallakoff,
`please.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Does Pallakoff use simultaneous pressing of
`multiple keys as one of its ways of dealing with the
`size constraint?
` A. So Pallakoff --
` Your question had sort of two parts I think.
`Pallakoff certainly, as I recall -- and I'm reading
`here in the abstract -- teaches pressing buttons
`simultaneously. The second part of your question was
`about the size constraint. It's not obvious to me
`that Pallakoff teaches, either literally or as sort of
`a person of ordinary skill reading Pallakoff through
`the many embodiments in Pallakoff, that the
`simultaneous pressing of keys is somehow linked to the
`size of the device.
` Q. Well Pallakoff's device is a pretty small
`mobile phone; right?
` A. So Pallakoff, like I think all of this art,
`is not -- or any art for that matter, prior art, is
`Page 21
`1
`not one device but is several -- is many teachings
`2
`with many example embodiments that a person of
`3
`ordinary skill would take as concrete examples of
`4
`embodiments of the inventors' inventive concepts and
`5
`then would apply -- would -- would or could apply
`6
`those inventive concepts to similar embodiments or
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`variations of them that they thought were appropriate,
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`so I don't think that any one embodiment that's shown
`9
`here limits in any way the application of Pallakoff's
`10
`inventive concepts. And I think -- you know, I'm sure
`11
`Pallakoff says that somewhere; the patents usually do.
`12
` Q. Is it correct that all the figures shown in
`13
`Pallakoff depict a small mobile phone?
`14
` A. I believe it's correct to say that all of
`15
`the figures depict something that looks like a mobile
`16
`phone and probably is referred to as potentially a
`17 mobile phone or something similar. It's not obvious
`18
`to me that size is reflected anywhere. I don't see
`19
`any notion of scale. And it could -- but it could
`20
`well be. Again, it's just one --
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` They're referring to particular embodiments
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`in the -- in the patent.
`23
` Q. In your reading of Pallakoff and your review
`24
`of the figures, are you saying you can't tell that the
`25
`device shown in the figures is a small mobile phone?
`6 (Pages 18 to 21)
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`Page 22
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`1
` A. Well --
`2
` So there are two questions or two issues.
`3 One is can I tell that it's a small mobile phone. And
`4
`I'm just being objective. I can certainly tell that
`5
`it looks like a mobile phone to me. Scale is very
`6
`subjective, and I don't know what "small" or "large"
`7
`is, but, you know, it's -- I think it's clearly
`8
`intended in some way be to held in a person's hand.
`9
`But again, this was just one embodiment out of
`10
`Pallakoff's teachings.
`11
` Q. You know, you keep saying that, but actually
`12
`my questions now are just about the device shown in
`13
`the figures. You're not willing to call that a small
`14
`device?
`15
` A. I'm not willing to say it is small or is not
`16
`small. I'm saying I don't think there's anything in
`17
`the diagrams per se -- we could go look at the text --
`18
`that indicates size that I can see here, unless you
`19
`can point me to something. And again, the word
`20
`"small" is very subjective. So we can talk about
`21
`specific dimensions; maybe Pallakoff does, I don't
`22
`know. But I'm just not willing to say it is or is not
`23
`either way. I can't tell.
`24
` Q. Can you turn to paragraph 0015 of Pallakoff,
`25
`please.
`
`Page 24
`1
`you then pressed one of the keys, for example, on the
`2
`face of the device, it would do one thing; for
`3
`example, print a particular character. If you pressed
`4
`one of the modifier buttons, it would change what that
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`second key's -- the effect of that second key, so it
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`would be a different character, for example.
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` Q. Where are those modifier buttons located on
`8
`Pallakoff's device?
`9
` A. Again, there's, you know, no one device. I
`10
`believe the examples -- the exemplars, for example --
`11
`sorry -- that Pallakoff gives, they have them in
`12 multiple places: on the front, the back, the side.
`13
`And certainly in, for example, paragraph 200,
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`Pallakoff teaches that they could basically be
`15
`anywhere, including -- I mean on any of the surfaces.
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`For example, he says, "Another alternative would be to
`17
`put some or all of them on the back of the device
`18
`where the user could operate them moving one or more
`19
`fingers," the last sentence of paragraph 200.
`20
` Q. You don't cite that in your declaration; do
`21
`you?
`22
` A. I don't recall.
`23
` Q. If you could look in your 00396 declaration
`24
`in paragraph 50, --
`25
` A. Okay.
`
`Page 23
`
` A. Okay.
` Q. Do you have it in front of you?
` A. I do.
` Q. Paragraph 15 introduces the term, and quotes
`it, "modifier buttons;" is that right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And they're equated, at least in terms of
`the terminology, with the phrase "side buttons."
` A. Yes. It appears that Pallakoff says that
`he, and I assume -- I hope it's a he, --
` Q. It is.
` A. -- I'll refer to it as a he -- Pallakoff
`refers to, it appears, the side buttons or modifier
`buttons I guess synonymously. I'd have to look at the
`context to see how they're used later, but that's
`certainly what it appears to say here in the first
`sentence of paragraph 15.
` Q. And what do those modifier buttons do in
`Pallakoff's device?
` A. So I'm going just from memory here, so it's
`not quite speculation but it's from my memory. Those
`are the buttons -- or in some embodiments he teaches
`using those buttons to change the mappings on some of
`the keys, change the functions of different keys on
`the device. So without a modifier being pressed, if
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`Page 25
` Q. -- just before the figure you say in your
`direct testimony that the modifier buttons (also
`referred to as side buttons) could be on the left,
`right, or back side; is that right?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. And the citations you give for that are --
` In Pallakoff you cite four things: Fig. 1,
`the abstract, and paragraphs 0015 and 0196; is that
`right?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Could you turn to the first of those, Fig.
`1, please.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Is there anything about Fig. 1 in Pallakoff
`that shows modifier buttons on the back of the device?
` A. It's not obvious to me from looking at Fig.
`1 that there is.
` Q. Could you turn to the abstract of Pallakoff,
`please, the second of the four parts that you cite.
`Are you there?
` A. I am.
` Q. Is there anything about the abstract that
`suggests putting the modifier buttons, or otherwise
`known as side buttons, on the back of the device?
` A. Sitting here right now, I don't see it.
`7 (Pages 22 to 25)
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`MINNEAPOLIS, MN 1-800-553-1953 info@stirewalt.com
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`

`
`Page 26
`1
` Q. Can you turn then to the third of the four
`2
`parts of Pallakoff that you cite in paragraph 50 of
`3
`your 00396 declaration; in other words, Pallakoff
`4
`paragraph 0015. Are you there?
`5
` A. I am. I'm looking.
`6
` Q. Is there anything about paragraph 15 -- or
`7
`0015 of Pallakoff that suggests you can put the
`8 modifier buttons, otherwise known as side buttons, on
`9
`the back of the device?
`10
` A. I don't see anything sitting here right now,
`11
`no.
`12
` Q. And you just read paragraph 0015; right?
`13
` A. That's correct. Read it quickly, but that's
`14
`correct.
`15
` Q. Well take your time, read it as long as you
`16
`want, and let me know if there's anything in it that
`17
`suggests putting the modifier buttons, or otherwise
`18
`known as side buttons, on the back of the device.
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` A. I don't see anything in 15 sitting here
`20
`right now.
`21
` Q. Okay. And the fourth of the four parts of
`22
`Pallakoff that you cite in paragraph 50 of your 00396
`23
`declaration is Pallakoff paragraph 0196. If you could
`24
`turn to that, please.
`25
` Are you there?
`
`Page 27
`
`1
` A. I'm there.
`2
` Q. Same question: Is there anything about
`3
`Pallakoff paragraph 0196 that suggests putting the
`4 modifier buttons, otherwise known as the side buttons,
`5
`on the back of the device?
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` A. So this paragraph does say, the last
`7
`sentence, "...buttons can be added to the face," and
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`then parenthetically it says "(or even the back) of
`9
`the phone to allow users to switch between functions,
`10
`or combinations of these features can be used."
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` And I think it's important to point out also
`12
`that, as I said before in my previous deposition a
`13 month ago or so, that in all of these cases, for me
`14
`personally, and I don't know what's allowed legally,
`15
`but the cites that I provide are examples, it doesn't
`16 mean they were the only places. And as imperfect as
`17
`they may be, you know, I still stand by this, that
`18
`certainly a person of ordinary skill would understand
`19
`that Pallakoff teaches that those buttons can be on
`20
`the back, and for what it's worth, here in 196 it does
`21
`actually say that.
`22
` Q. In the sentence you referred to at the end
`23
`of paragraph 0196 of Pallakoff it's referring to --
`24
` Well it uses the term "switch between
`25
`functions." Do you see that?
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`Page 28
` A. It does. I see that. I see the phrase
`"switch between functions," yes.
` Q. And is it fair to understand that to be
`referring to the items discussed just above that about
`accessing e-mail, instant messaging, web pages,
`remotely hosted applications and other services?
` A. It could be. I don't think a person of
`ordinary skill would certainly limit their thinking to
`that, especially since other places in the patent, you
`know, it specifically says it can be. And, you know,
`again, I think what matters here, if I understand the
`proceedings correctly, is what a person of ordinary
`skill would understand the prior art to teach, so I'm
`not sure about how exactly that could be parsed, but
`when I read that, I read that as saying basically the
`buttons can be anywhere. And Pallakoff, again in
`paragraph 200, says that explicitly.
` Q. So I think you're answering a different
`question than the o