UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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` US PATENT NO. 6,321,229
`
` ---o0o---
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`SERVICENOW, INC., )
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` Petitioner, )
`
` vs. ) No. IPR2015-00523
`
`HEWLETT-PACKARD COMPANY, )
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` Patent Owner. )
`
`______________________________)
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF PAUL ONNEN
`
` TUESDAY JANUARY 26, 2016
`
`JOB No. 2221595
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`PAGES 1 - 70
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`ServiceNow's Exhibit No. 1029
`IPR2015-00523
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`001
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`
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` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` US PATENT NO. 6,321,229
`
` ---o0o---
`
`SERVICENOW, INC., )
`
` Petitioner, )
`
` vs. ) No. IPR2015-00523
`
`HEWLETT-PACKARD COMPANY, )
`
` Patent Owner. )
`
`______________________________)
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF PAUL ONNEN
`
` TUESDAY JANUARY 26, 2016
`
`JOB No. 2221595
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`PAGES 1 - 70
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`ServiceNow's Exhibit No. 1029
`IPR2015-00523
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`001
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`
`
` Videotaped Deposition of PAUL ONNEN, taken on
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`behalf of Petitioner, at WilmerHale, 950 Page Mill Road,
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`Palo Alto, California, commencing at 10:03 a.m., Tuesday,
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`January 26, 2016, before Kelli Combs, CSR No. 7705.
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`A P P E A R A N C E O F C O U N S E L :
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`F O R P E T I T I O N E R :
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` C O O L E Y , L L P
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` B Y : A N D R E W M A C E , E S Q .
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` 3 1 7 4 H a n o v e r S t r e e t
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` P a l o A l t o , C a l i f o r n i a 9 4 3 0 4
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` a m a c e @ c o o l e y . c o m
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`F O R P A T E N T O W N E R :
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` W I L M E R C U T L E R P I C K E R I N G H A L E A N D D O R R
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` B Y : J O H N P . P E T T I T , E S Q .
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` 9 5 0 P a g e M i l l R o a d
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` P a l o A l t o , C a l i f o r n i a 9 4 3 0 4
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` 6 5 0 . 8 5 8 - 6 0 5 6
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` j o h n . p e t t i t @ w i l m e r h a l e . c o m
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`ServiceNow's Exhibit No. 1029
`IPR2015-00523
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`003
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`
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` I N D E X
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`January 26, 2016
`
`PAUL ONNEN
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`EXAMINATION PAGE
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` (BY MR. MACE) 7
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` I N D E X
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` EXHIBITS FOR IDENTIFICATION
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`EXHIBIT NO. PAGE
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`Exhibit 1 Document titled "Google, 24
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` Official Blog. Jump to the
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` information you want right
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` from the search snippets"
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` dated September 25, 2009
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`Exhibit 2 Document titled "Google 27
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` Webmaster Central Blog"
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` dated Friday, September 25,
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` 2009
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`EXHIBIT NO. PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS PAGE
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`Exhibit 1001 US Patent No. 6,321,229 12
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`Exhibit 2003 Declaration of Paul Onnen 12
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` in the IPR2015-00523 case
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` Tuesday, January 26, 2016; Palo Alto, California
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` 10:03 a.m.
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` ---o0o---
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning.
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` THE WITNESS: Good morning. 10:03:21AM
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're on the record at
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`10:03 a.m. on January 26, 2016. This is the video
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`recorded deposition of Paul Onnen. My name is Frank
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`Clare, here with our court reporter, Kelli Combs.
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`We're here from Veritext Legal Solutions at request 10:03:36AM
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`of counsel for the Petitioner. This deposition is
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`being held in WilmerHale in Palo Alto, California.
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`The caption of this case is ServiceNow, Incorporated
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`versus Hewlett-Packard Company, Case Number
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`IPR2015-00717 [sic]. 10:04:00AM
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` Please note that audio and video recording
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`will take place unless all parties agree to go off
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`the record. Microphones are sensitive and may pick
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`up whispers, private conversations and cellular
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`interference. I'm not related to any party in this 10:04:09AM
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`action, nor am I financially interested in the
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`outcome in any way.
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` At this time will counsel please identify
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`yourselves for the record.
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` MR. MACE: Andrew Mace with Cooley for the 10:04:21AM
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`Petitioner, ServiceNow. 10:04:23AM
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` MR. PETTIT: John Pettit, WilmerHale,
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`representing HP and the witness.
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you.
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` The court reporter will administer the 10:04:30AM
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`oath and examination may begin.
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` PAUL E. ONNEN,
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` after having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
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` ---o0o---
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` 10:04:34AM
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` MR. MACE: Okay. Just to clarify the
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`record, this deposition is regarding Case Number
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`IPR2015-00523. It's U.S. Patent Number 6,321,229.
`
` EXAMINATION
`
`BY MR. MACE: 10:04:55AM
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` Q Good morning, Mr. Onnen.
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` A Good morning.
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` Q Can you state your full name for the
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`record, please.
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` A Paul E. Onnen, O-N-N-E-N. 10:05:01AM
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` Q Can you briefly describe your educational
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`background for me.
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` A Certainly. I received my Bachelor of Arts
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`in mathematics and physics with Honors from St. Olaf
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`College in Northfield, Minnesota in 1984. I then 10:05:14AM
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`received my Master's of Science Degree in computer 10:05:20AM
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`science in 1986 from the University of Wisconsin in
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`Madison, Wisconsin.
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` Q You worked at Google, right?
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` A That is correct. 10:05:31AM
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` Q When did you work at Google?
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` A I worked at Google from 2007 to 2009.
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` Q What was the nature of your work at
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`Google?
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` A I was Director of Engineering in the 10:05:45AM
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`Zurich, Switzerland office of Google. I was
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`responsible for infrastructure engineering in
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`Europe -- actually, EMEA, Europe, Middle East and
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`Africa.
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` Q Just sort of generally speaking, what did 10:06:02AM
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`infrastructure engineering entail?
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` A Infrastructure engineering at Google is
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`responsible from the operating system level up to
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`the applications. So my customers at Google were
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`internal groups at Google; for example, Web Search 10:06:17AM
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`group, Maps, Mobile, et cetera, et cetera. We built
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`the tools that the rest of Google used to get their
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`job done.
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` Q Were you responsible at all for
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`determining what Google's Search engine indexed from 10:06:34AM
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`Web pages? 10:06:39AM
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` A No. There are seven different focus areas
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`at Google, one of them being Web Search. Another
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`group is what they called Web Search Infrastructure,
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`so I did have a small group of people who worked on 10:06:52AM
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`that, but it was, again, purely providing the data
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`for what we call signals for the team that actually
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`is building the index to help make better selection
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`of the information that goes into an index.
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` Q You said you left Google in 2009? 10:07:09AM
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` A Correct.
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` Q Do you recall the month that you left?
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` A I believe it was May.
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` Q Since May of 2009, have you done any other
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`work for Google? 10:07:19AM
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` A For Google, no, I have not.
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` Q Have you ever been deposed before?
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` A I have.
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` Q Roughly how many times have you been
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`deposed? 10:07:28AM
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` A Twice.
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` Q And both of those times, was it as a
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`technical expert?
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` A It was.
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` Q Do you understand that you're under oath 10:07:41AM
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`to tell the truth today? 10:07:43AM
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` A Yes, I do.
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` Q Is there any reason that you cannot
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`provide complete and accurate testimony today?
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` A No reason. 10:07:51AM
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` Q If you don't understand a question, you'll
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`let me know, right?
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` A I will.
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` Q Have you reviewed any ServiceNow source
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`code? 10:07:59AM
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` A I have not.
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` Q Did you do anything to prepare for your
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`deposition here today?
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` A Yes. I did extensive preparation,
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`reviewing the '229 patent, the IPR, the prior art 10:08:10AM
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`cited as well as my own declaration I had prepared.
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` Q Did you meet with attorneys for HP?
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` A I did yesterday.
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` Q About how long was that meeting?
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` A Six hours. 10:08:33AM
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` Q Other than that meeting yesterday, have
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`you had any other meetings with counsel for HP?
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` A Oh, significant number of meetings over --
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`over a year.
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` Q And all of them were regarding your 10:08:47AM
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`preparation for this deposition today? 10:08:49AM
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` A No.
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` Q Okay.
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` And so in terms of your preparation for
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`this deposition, which of those meetings were -- 10:08:55AM
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` A Just yesterday.
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` Q Just yesterday?
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` Now, you prepared a declaration for this
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`matter, right?
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` A That is correct. 10:09:05AM
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` Q Okay.
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` You'll understand if I refer to the
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`'229 patent?
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` A I will.
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` Q Okay. 10:09:11AM
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` And the declaration -- strike that.
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` And the opinions in your declaration
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`relate to the '229 patent, correct?
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` A That is correct.
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` Q Can you tell me roughly how much time you 10:09:20AM
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`spent preparing that declaration?
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` A It was between 20 and 30 hours of time,
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`and that involved both working with counsel on
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`coming up with the outline as well as reviewing,
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`again, the material that we just discussed as well 10:09:39AM
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`as writing the declaration itself. 10:09:41AM
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` Q All right.
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` So I've handed you two documents that have
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`been previously marked. The first document was
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`previously marked as Exhibit 2003, and that's the 10:10:03AM
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`declaration that you prepared in this IPR, correct?
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` (Petitioner's Exhibit 2003
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` marked for identification.)
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` THE WITNESS: That is correct.
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` (Petitioner's Exhibit 1001 10:10:11AM
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` marked for identification.)
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` MR. MACE: And the second document is
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`marked Exhibit 1001, and that's the '229 patent,
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`right?
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` THE WITNESS: That is correct. 10:10:27AM
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`BY MR. MACE:
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` Q Have you ever used ColdFusion before?
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` A I have.
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` Q When have you used it?
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` A Oh, boy. Over 10 years ago. I'm thinking 10:10:42AM
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`the late -- late -- early 2000 time frame, I
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`believe. I can't remember exactly.
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` Q Do you recall what you used ColdFusion
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`for?
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` A Yes. We were building a website that 10:11:02AM
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`dynamically retrieved information from a database 10:11:06AM
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`and displayed it to the user once they locked into
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`the system.
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` Q And who's "we"?
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` A I was a member of a -- I'm sorry. It was 10:11:18AM
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`in 1999. I was a member of a company called
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`Punch Networks, Chief Technology Officer at that
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`time.
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` Q And just generally speaking, what was the
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`information that you were retrieving from the 10:11:34AM
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`database to build that website?
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` A We were retrieving -- it was a document
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`repository, something you're very familiar with as a
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`lawyer, so you could retrieve different versions of
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`documents stored in the -- in the repository. 10:11:45AM
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` Q And did you personally write ColdFusion
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`source code for that project?
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` A Believe it or not, I did. I wrote the --
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`there were -- there were -- it's a small startup
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`company, and I was responsible for writing some of 10:12:07AM
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`the front-end code, the code that was in the HTML
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`code, HyperText Markup Language code.
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` Q Were you involved in the decision to use
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`ColdFusion to generate those website pages?
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` A I was not. 10:12:27AM
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` Q Do you have any knowledge regarding why 10:12:28AM
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`the decision was made to use ColdFusion?
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` A I believe the founder of the company knew
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`the language and decided to use it.
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` Q Prior to your work on the website project 10:12:49AM
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`at Punch Networks, had you ever used ColdFusion
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`before?
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` A I had not.
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` Q Did you find ColdFusion difficult to
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`learn? 10:13:02AM
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` A Somewhat, yes.
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` Q If you recall, what did you find difficult
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`about it?
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` A The syntax was new to me and the back-end
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`program was quite complex. 10:13:22AM
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` Q What are you referring to when you refer
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`to the "back-end program"?
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` A ColdFusion is a software that allows you
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`to insert special tags, tags in the actual HTML
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`document, which, when the ColdFusion server, which 10:13:54AM
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`is on the back end -- it's actually attached to the
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`Web server -- reads those, it interprets that and
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`then does some business logic on the back end to do
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`something, do something for the user, and then it
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`replaces the contents of those ColdFusion tags in 10:14:10AM
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`the front end with whatever it figured out that it 10:14:13AM
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`wanted to display actually in the -- in the HTML,
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`and then it sends that HTML back to the user's
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`browser.
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` Q Okay. 10:14:35AM
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` And so when you refer to the back-end
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`program, you're referring to ColdFusion?
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` A Again, ColdFusion is -- is not just --
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`it's -- it's both. It's both the tags that are
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`inserted into the HTML document as well as the code 10:14:45AM
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`that's written on the ColdFusion server that allows
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`you to access whatever data or business logic on the
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`back end.
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` Q So what about the back-end program was
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`complex? 10:15:28AM
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` A Again, it was a new language. As I said
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`earlier, I was not directly responsible for that
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`piece. Another engineer at the company did that
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`work, but, again, you have to write custom code on
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`the ColdFusion server to access either information 10:15:42AM
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`in the database or from somewhere else and then get
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`that in the right format to send back to the user.
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` Q Okay.
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` So you weren't responsible for the piece
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`of your project that interfaced with the back-end 10:16:03AM
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`program? 10:16:07AM
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` A As Chief Technology Officer, I was overall
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`respon- -- had overall responsibility for the entire
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`front and back-end database, everything. However, I
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`did not write that code directly. Correct. 10:16:18AM
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` Q Do you recall how long that project at
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`Punch Networks took to implement?
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` A I believe it was less than a year until it
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`was in production.
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` Q All right. 10:16:45AM
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` Let's turn to paragraph 29 of your
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`declaration, which is Exhibit 2003.
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` Do you have it?
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` A I'm at paragraph 29.
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` Q Okay. 10:17:06AM
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` And I'll read it. Paragraph 29 begins:
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`"A database" -- strike that.
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` Paragraph 29 begins:
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` "A database is a program that
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` is able to store large amounts of 10:17:16AM
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` data, and which also enables the
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` ability to efficiently access that
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` data. Databases store data in
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` 'tables' which contain multiple
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` columns (sometimes called 10:17:28AM
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` 'fields'), where each column is a 10:17:32AM
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` set of values of a particular type,
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` one for each row of data in the
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` table."
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` Do you see that? 10:17:43AM
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` A I do.
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` Q Did I read that --
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` MR. PETTIT: Objection to form.
`
`BY MR. MACE:
`
` Q Did I read that correctly? 10:17:48AM
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` A You did read it correctly.
`
` Q The specification of the '229 patent talks
`
`about databases, right?
`
` A It does.
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` Q Is it your opinion that when the '229 10:17:58AM
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`patent mentions databases, it's referring to a
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`program that stores data in tables having columns
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`and rows?
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` A The '229 specification mentions databases
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`as one embodiment of it, but when it mentions -- 10:18:13AM
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`when it is using that embodiment, yes, it matches
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`the definition that's given here in paragraph 29.
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` Q The word "database" is not recited in the
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`claims, right, of the '229 patent?
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` A I would have to review the claims to 10:18:44AM
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`verify that. 10:18:45AM
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` Q Go ahead. I'll repeat my question after
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`you've had a chance to review.
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` A I have finished reviewing the claims.
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` Q Okay. 10:20:36AM
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` Now, the word "database" is not recited in
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`the claims of the '229 patent, correct?
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` A That is correct.
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` Q Nothing in the claim language of the
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`claims of the '229 patent requires a database as you 10:20:46AM
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`describe it in paragraph 29 of your declaration,
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`correct?
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` A Can you define what you mean by "plain
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`language"? I'm not an attorney.
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` Q Do you see the word "database" in the 10:21:08AM
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`claims of the '229 patent?
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` A I do not.
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` Q And when I say "claim language," I mean
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`the words of the claim.
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` A I'm sorry, I thought you said "plain 10:21:21AM
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`language." I apologize. Claim language, yes. I
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`know what claim language is, I apologize.
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` I did not see the word "database" in any
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`of the claim language.
`
` Q Okay. 10:21:31AM
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` So nothing in the claim language of the 10:21:31AM
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`'229 patent requires a database as you describe it
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`in your declaration in paragraph 29, correct?
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` A That is correct.
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` Q Okay. 10:21:46AM
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` Could you turn with me to paragraph 74 of
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`your declaration, and specifically I want to direct
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`your attention to the last sentence of that
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`paragraph which is on page 37.
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` A May I review the -- the whole paragraph? 10:22:19AM
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` Q Sure. Go ahead.
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` A I've reviewed paragraph 74.
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` Q Great.
`
` So I'd like to direct your attention to
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`the last sentence of that paragraph, and it states: 10:23:31AM
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` "Petitioner cites to the
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` description in Fox of the NAME
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` attribute and its description that,
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` if 'there's a properly labeled <A
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` NAME='jew> section in the 10:23:50AM
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` religions.html document, your
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` readers will be warped directly
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` there' with the hyperlink '<A
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` HREF='religions.html#jew'>."
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` Do you see that? 10:24:25AM
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` A I see that. 10:24:25AM
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` Q Now, the text there: "A NAME='jew'" in
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`HTML, that's referred to as an anchor tag, correct?
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` A The correct term, I believe, is a name
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`attribute, but it's commonly referred to as an 10:24:54AM
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`anchor tag, correct.
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` Q Okay.
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` And when an anchor tag has an associated
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`name attribute, as it does here in this sentence in
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`paragraph 74, it's referred to as a "named anchor," 10:25:05AM
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`correct?
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` A That is correct.
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` Q Could you turn with me to paragraph 101 of
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`your declaration. Feel free to review the entire
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`paragraph. 10:25:42AM
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` A Okay.
`
` I finished reviewing paragraph 101.
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` Q All right.
`
` I'd like to focus your attention on the
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`second-to-last sentence in paragraph 101. 10:26:39AM
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` It says:
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` "Even today, over 15 years
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` later, Google does not track or
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` allow a user to query the NAME
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` attributes within web pages." 10:26:53AM
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` Do you see that? 10:26:55AM
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` A I do.
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` Q Are you saying that in paragraph 101 that
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`Google Search engine does not track named anchors in
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`Web pages? 10:27:06AM
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` A It may track them, but it does not use
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`them in its algorithm, at least at the time when I
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`was at Google. Caveat that it was quite some time
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`ago.
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` Q And your sentence here says: 10:27:32AM
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` "Even today, Google does not
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` track or allow a user to query the
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` NAME attributes within web pages."
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` Is it your position that that is a true
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`statement even today? 10:27:45AM
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` A As far as I know. I didn't do extensive
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`research on whether it was still the case. However,
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`I know that it does not -- again, it may track it.
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`I don't believe it uses that information in -- to
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`help it create an index or adjust the page rank of a 10:28:00AM
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`particular document in the index.
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` Q You don't cite anything for this sentence
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`here that we're talking about. Is this statement
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`based on your personal knowledge?
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` A It's based on my knowledge of my time at 10:28:25AM
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`Google, and as I mentioned, I was -- one of my 10:28:27AM
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`responsibilities was Web Search Infrastructure, and
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`while I was there at Google, I did not come upon any
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`time where these named attributes, these anchor
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`tags, were used in creation of a Web index. 10:28:44AM
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` Again, as far as I know, since then, that
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`has not changed. I do know for a fact that you
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`can't do a Google Search for an anchor tag within a
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`document at this point. I did -- I did test that.
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` Q Are you aware of whether Google's Search 10:29:20AM
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`results will provide links having named anchors in
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`its search results?
`
` A The anchor is a field within an HTML
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`document. What Google does is it stores the entire
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`document -- it obviously creates an index so when 10:29:41AM
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`you search, you add a keyword. So, for example, the
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`example that you were reading before, this
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`particular document that you were searching for,
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`say, it matched that particular document about the
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`world religions in the previous sentence that you 10:29:58AM
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`read, if those keywords matched that document, all
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`Google does is return a link to the actual document.
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`It doesn't do anything to the document.
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` Now, if you click on that link, then
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`wherever that document might be stored -- it's not 10:30:16AM
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`stored on Google -- it's retrieved in its entirety 10:30:18AM
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`from the original source and displayed in the
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`browser. If that document, again, as the example we
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`read earlier, has an anchor tag, Google has nothing
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`to do with that. It's from the original source of 10:30:30AM
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`the data. All Google is doing is matching user
`
`queries to documents spread throughout the Web.
`
`That's what makes it so powerful.
`
` Q So if Google -- Google Search engine
`
`indexes a Web page that has named anchors in it, 10:30:50AM
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`will Google Search results take those named anchors
`
`into consideration when it determines the results to
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`provide in response to a search?
`
` A At -- at the time at which I was at
`
`Google, it was not a signal, what we call signals, 10:31:07AM
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`to add to the index. Can I -- I'll give another
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`example.
`
` Meta tags are tags that users can put into
`
`their HTML documents to help improve their ranking
`
`in an index. Google used to take those into 10:31:23AM
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`consideration, but people were just spamming,
`
`putting thousands of meta tags in, and so Google now
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`ignores meta tags completely.
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` So Google doesn't use a lot of content in
`
`the HTML file in order to do its -- its indexing. 10:31:38AM
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`It uses other external figures -- sorry, statistics, 10:31:42AM
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`such as page rank, which is how many people link to
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`that document.
`
` Q Are you aware of whether Google maintains
`
`a -- an official blog regarding its products? 10:32:23AM
`
` A I believe it does.
`
` Q Are you aware of whether Google maintains
`
`a blog to provide official news regarding the
`
`operation of its index?
`
` A Yes, I am aware of that. 10:32:38AM
`
` MR. MACE: Let's mark this as Onnen
`
`Exhibit 1.
`
` (Petitioner's Exhibit 1 marked
`
` for identification.)
`
`BY MR. MACE: 10:33:29AM
`
` Q I'm sorry, is it Onnen or Onnen
`
`(pronounced differently)?
`
` A Either way. I'll answer to both.
`
` Q Okay. Mr. Onnen --
`
` A Onnen is the correct pronunciation. 10:33:41AM
`
` Q Mr. Onnen, the court reporter has handed
`
`you a document that's been marked as Onnen
`
`Exhibit 1, and at the top of the page it says,
`
`"Official Google Blog. Jump to the information you
`
`want right from the search snippets." 10:33:54AM
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` A Uh-huh. 10:33:59AM
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` Q Does this document appear to you to be a
`
`post from Google's official blog?
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` MR. PETTIT: Objection; foundation.
`
` THE WITNESS: I can't tell, from what this 10:34:11AM
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`is. It's just a printout. I can't say for sure,
`
`one way or the other.
`
`BY MR. MACE:
`
` Q In the lower left corner there, there's a
`
`URL. 10:34:29AM
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` Do you see that?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q It says "googleblog.blogspot.com"; is that
`
`correct?
`
` A Yes. 10:34:38AM
`
` Q Do you know if BlogSpot was and is owned
`
`by Google?
`
` A I have no idea.
`
` Q Okay.
`
` Sitting here right now, you have no reason 10:34:51AM
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`to dispute that this isn't a post from Google's
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`official blog, correct?
`
` A No.
`
` Q You see that it's dated September 25,
`
`2009, correct? 10:35:03AM
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` A Uh-huh. Yes. 10:35:04AM
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` Q Okay.
`
` If I could turn your attention to page 2
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`of Exhibit 1. At the top, there's a sentence that
`
`says: 10:35:22AM
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` "Now, included with the
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` snippet are links to specific
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` sections within the page, covering
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` different subtopics of trans fats."
`
` Do you see that? 10:35:35AM
`
` A I do.
`
` Q Okay.
`
` And then on page 3, there's a sentence
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`that says:
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` "If you're a webmaster and 10:35:43AM
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` would like to have these links
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` appear for your web pages, take a
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` look at the Google Webmaster
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` Central Blog for info on some of
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` the things you can do." 10:35:53AM
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A I do.
`
` Q Okay.
`
` Feel free to review --
`
` A May I review the whole thing? 10:36:06AM
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` Q Sure. You can review the entire document. 10:36:07AM
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` A Thank you.
`
` I've reviewed this exhibit.
`
` Q Okay.
`
` So Exhibit 1, this official Google blog 10:37:29AM
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`post, is describing a feature of Google Search in
`
`which links to specific sections of a document are
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`provided right from Google Search results, correct?
`
` A Correct.
`
` Q Then you see that on page 3 of Exhibit 1, 10:37:50AM
`
`it says:
`
` "...take a look at the Google
`
`
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