EXHIBIT 1039
`
`Transcript of deposition of Ralph Etienne-Cummings on Dec. 11, 2015
`
`TRW Automotive U.S. LLC: EXHIBIT 1039
`PETITION FOR INTER PARTES REVIEW
`OF U.S. PATENT NUMBER 8,599,001
`IPR2015-00436
`
`
`
`Transcript of deposition of Ralph Etienne-Cummings on Dec. 11, 2015
`
`TRW Automotive U.S. LLC: EXHIBIT 1039
`PETITION FOR INTER PARTES REVIEW
`OF U.S. PATENT NUMBER 8,599,001
`IPR2015-00436
`
`
`
`
`In the Matter of:
`
`TRW AUTOMOTIVE U.S. LLC
`vs.
`MAGNA ELECTRONICS INC.
`
`___________________________________________________
`
`RALPH ETIENNE‐CUMMINGS, Ph.D.
`December 11, 2015
`
`___________________________________________________
`
`1039-001
`
`
`
`RALPH ETIENNE-CUMMINGS, Ph.D. December 11, 2015
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` ____________________________
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` ____________________________
`
` TRW AUTOMOTIVE U.S. LLC
` Petitioner
` v.
` MAGNA ELECTRONICS, INC.
` Patent Owner
` ____________________________
` Case IPR2015-00436, Case IPR2015-00437
` Case IPR2015-438, Case IPR2015-439
` ____________________________
`
` Videotaped Deposition of
` RALPH ETIENNE-CUMMINGS, Ph.D.
` Washington, D.C.
` Friday, December 11, 2015
` 9:19 a.m.
`
`Job No. CH-064908
`Pages 1 - 135
`Reported by: Michele E. Eddy, RPR, CRR, CLR
`
`DTI Court Reporting Solutions - Chicago
`800-868-0061
`www.deposition.com
`
`1039-002
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`
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`RALPH ETIENNE-CUMMINGS, Ph.D. December 11, 2015
`Page 2
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` Videotaped Deposition of RALPH ETIENNE-CUMMINGS,
`Ph.D., held at the offices of:
` STERNE, KESSLER, GOLDSTEIN & FOX
` 1100 New York Avenue, Northwest
` Suite 600
` Washington, D.C. 20005
` (202) 371-2600
` Pursuant to Notice, before Michele E.
`Eddy, Registered Professional Reporter, Certified
`Realtime Reporter, and Notary public in and for
`the District of Columbia.
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`www.deposition.com
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`1039-003
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`RALPH ETIENNE-CUMMINGS, Ph.D. December 11, 2015
`Page 3
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
`
`ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER:
` JON R. TREMBATH, ESQUIRE
` LATHROP & GAGE LLP
` 950 Seventeenth Street, Suite 2400
` Denver, Colorado 80202
` Telephone: (720) 931-3200
` jtrembath@lathropgage.com
` - AND -
` HISSAN ANIS, ESQUIRE
` LATHROP & GAGE LLP
` 10851 Mastin Boulevard
` Building 82, Suite 1000
` Overland Park, Kansas 66210
` Telephone: (913) 451-5100
` hanis@lathropgage.com
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`1039-004
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`RALPH ETIENNE-CUMMINGS, Ph.D. December 11, 2015
`Page 4
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`ATTENDANCE, Continued
`
`ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER:
` MARK CONSILVIO, ESQUIRE
` DANIEL E. YONAN, ESQUIRE
` STERNE, KESSLER, GOLDSTEIN & FOX
` 1100 New York Avenue, Northwest
` Suite 600
` Washington, D.C. 20005
` Telephone: (202) 371-2600
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
` T.J. O'Toole, Videographer
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`800-868-0061
`www.deposition.com
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`1039-005
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`RALPH ETIENNE-CUMMINGS, Ph.D. December 11, 2015
`Page 5
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` EXAMINATION INDEX
` PAGE
`EXAMINATION BY MR. TREMBATH 8
`EXAMINATION BY MR. YONAN 126
`
` E X H I B I T S
` (Attached to the Transcript)
`DEPOSITION EXHIBIT PAGE
`Exhibit 1 Declaration of Dr. Ralph 12
` Etienne-Cummings; IPR2015-00436
`Exhibit 2 Exhibit 1004, Vellacott, Oliver; 48
` CMOS In Camera, IEE Review
` pp. 111-114 (May 1994)
`Exhibit 3 Exhibit 1005, U.S. Patent 64
` 4,970,653, Issued to Kenue on
` November 13, 1990
`Exhibit 4 Declaration of Dr. Matthew A. 65
` Turk, Patent 7,994,462
`Exhibit 5 Diagram 91
`Exhibit 6 Exhibit 1002, U.S. Patent 92
` 8,599,001 for Vehicular Vision
` System, Issued to Schofield,
` et al., on December 3, 2013
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`1039-006
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`RALPH ETIENNE-CUMMINGS, Ph.D. December 11, 2015
`Page 6
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` EXHIBIT INDEX CONTINUED
`
`DEPOSITION EXHIBIT PAGE
`Exhibit 7 Diagram 100
`Exhibit 8 Article titled "256 x 256 CMOS 123
` Active Pixel Sensor
` Camera-on-a-Chip" by R.H. Nixon,
` S.E. Kemeny, B. Pain, C.O.
` Staller, and E.R. Fossum
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`DTI Court Reporting Solutions - Chicago
`800-868-0061
`www.deposition.com
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`1039-007
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`RALPH ETIENNE-CUMMINGS, Ph.D. December 11, 2015
`Page 7
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
` Washington, D.C.
` December 11, 2015, 9:19 A.M.
` - - -
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record with
`disc number 1 of the video deposition of Dr. Ralph
`Etienne-Cummings, taken in the matter of TRW
`Automotive U.S. LLC versus Magna Electronics,
`Incorporated, in the United States Patent and
`Trademark Office before the Patent Trial and
`Appeal Board, Cases Number IPR2014-01497 and 99.
` This deposition is being held at the
`offices of Sterne Kessler, located at 1100 New
`York Avenue, Northwest, in Washington, D.C., on
`December 11th, 2015, at approximately 9:19 a.m.
` My name is T.J. O'Toole. I am the
`certified legal video specialist. The court
`reporter is Michele Eddy. We are both here
`representing DTI Global.com.
` Will counsel please introduce themselves
`and indicate which parties they represent.
` MR. TREMBATH: Jon Trembath, Lathrop &
`Gage, representing the petitioner, TRW Automotive.
`With me is Hissan Anis as well.
` MR. YONAN: Daniel Yonan, from the law
`
`DTI Court Reporting Solutions - Chicago
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`
`1039-008
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`RALPH ETIENNE-CUMMINGS, Ph.D. December 11, 2015
`Page 8
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`firm of Sterne, Kessler, Goldstein & Fox,
`representing Magna.
` MR. CONSILVIO: Mark Consilvio, from
`Sterne Kessler, also representing Magna.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you.
` Will the court reporter please swear in
`the witness.
` - - -
` RALPH ETIENNE-CUMMINGS
`having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
` MR. TREMBATH: So, as a housekeeping
`matter, what he read in was maybe different from
`what I have. I think he said 2014. And I think
`it's IPR2015-00436, 00437, 00438, and 00439.
` MR. YONAN: That's correct.
` EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PETITIONER
`BY MR. TREMBATH:
` Q Could you state your name for the
`record, please.
` A Sure. My name is Ralph
`Etienne-Cummings.
` Q How would you like me to call you?
` A Ralph is fine or Dr. Etienne-Cummings.
` Q All right. Have you been deposed
`before?
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`1039-009
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`RALPH ETIENNE-CUMMINGS, Ph.D. December 11, 2015
`Page 9
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` A Yes, I have.
` Q How many times?
` A Not exactly sure, but I think it's in
`the neighborhood of ten, something like that.
` Q So you kind of know the rules of the
`game?
` A I think so.
` Q Okay. I'll reiterate the ones that I
`think are important.
` If you need a break, let me know.
` A Okay.
` Q I sometimes ask inarticulate questions.
`If you don't understand what I'm asking, just say
`so and I'll try to reformulate the question.
` A Okay.
` Q We'll try not to talk over each other.
`I think those are the big ones. Okay?
` A Thank you.
` Q As you prepared your declaration, did
`you review anything that wasn't included in the
`exhibits that you provided?
` A I do not think so.
` Q In your expert report, you indicated
`that the Vellacott reference was maybe inadequate
`to inform one how to do what it purported to do
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`DTI Court Reporting Solutions - Chicago
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`RALPH ETIENNE-CUMMINGS, Ph.D. December 11, 2015
`Page 10
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`because Donnelly, I guess, programmed the
`Vellacott device or something, that Donnelly added
`something to the mix that wasn't disclosed. Do
`you recall that?
` MR. YONAN: Objection, vague.
` A Yeah, I don't quite understand your
`question. It's a little bit convoluted.
` Q Okay. Let me see if I can find your
`testimony.
` A Sure.
` Q And then I think that will clear it up.
` While I'm looking, do you -- do you know
`about how much you've been paid for your
`engagement in this matter?
` A I don't know how much I have been paid
`because I didn't do the math, but I know how much
`time I have worked on it.
` Q How much time have you worked on it?
` A So it's something to the order of 54, I
`think, hours at this point.
` Q I think maybe what I'll do is I'll just
`go through your report and I'll get to what I
`wanted to ask you about.
` Were you told anything about Donnelly's
`development of the rearward-facing camera system?
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`RALPH ETIENNE-CUMMINGS, Ph.D. December 11, 2015
`Page 11
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` MR. YONAN: Same objection, vague.
` A "Development." What do you mean by
`development?
` Q Did anyone tell you what Donnelly did to
`make the VVL device work?
` A I have not spoken with anybody other
`than -- the only thing that I have is what's
`within the references so ...
` Q You didn't see any documents, nobody
`told you anything about how the VVL device worked
`or --
` A Well, I mean, other than -- so other
`than my understanding of the document, the
`Vellacott reference --
` Q Right.
` A -- and all the references that I've
`cited in my declarations, those are the components
`that went into my analysis to determine -- to
`understand, if I could, what the Donnelly system
`did or didn't do.
` Q So you didn't receive any information
`outside that universe that would inform you what
`the Donnelly system did.
` A Not that I recall.
` Q Perfect.
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`RALPH ETIENNE-CUMMINGS, Ph.D. December 11, 2015
`Page 12
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` Let's break out the declaration.
` Danny, would you like a copy?
` MR. YONAN: Absolutely. Thank you.
` MR. TREMBATH: Let's mark that as
`Exhibit 1. Hand it to the witness. Thank you.
` (Exhibit 1 was marked for identification
`and attached to the deposition transcript.)
`BY MR. TREMBATH:
` Q I believe Exhibit 1 is the declaration
`that you filed in this case, or that you prepared
`for this case, and I think if we can go ahead and
`jump to page 17.
` A Okay.
` Q At the top of the page, you write, "Each
`vision system is the result of conscious selection
`parameters for innumerable possibilities in an
`effort to find a uniquely effective solution to a
`particular application," and then, paren, "vision
`chips," in bold, "are always full-custom design,"
`end bold, "and full custom design is known to be
`time-consuming and error prone."
` What -- are you -- are you suggesting
`that all vision chips are full custom design?
` A So, remember, this is in the context of
`a time when we're talking about here.
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`RALPH ETIENNE-CUMMINGS, Ph.D. December 11, 2015
`Page 13
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` Q Right. Right.
` A So back in those -- at those times, if
`you look at the reference that I cited --
` Q Yes.
` A -- I believe this is the -- yes, it's
`the Exhibit 2005, which is -- just to be certain
`so that I don't give you the wrong impression -- I
`believe it's a book by Ali Moini, but let me
`verify that to be certain. Yes.
` So it's not just my opinion. It's the
`opinion of folks who were actually doing vision
`systems at that time, that pretty much every
`aspect of vision systems that were being developed
`at that time required, you know, the combination
`of design of a custom system based on the
`application at hand.
` Q What do you mean by "a custom system"?
` A So, for example, if I'm building a
`system that's going to measure movement, then I
`would have to build a system that had the entire
`componentry to allow motion to be measured. There
`was some literature that folks were, you know,
`putting out there of how one might consider
`measuring motion, for example, but there was no
`off-the-shelf component that I could go and
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`RALPH ETIENNE-CUMMINGS, Ph.D. December 11, 2015
`Page 14
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`purchase and just say I want measure motion.
`Everything had to be matched to the circumstance
`of the application at hand.
` Q So your opinion is there was no system
`out there that you could get off the shelf that
`would let you adapt it to a particular
`application.
` A So what I'm saying is that there are
`specifics about the application domain that
`ultimately one has to tune not -- one has to tune
`the design process to match that application
`domain.
` Q What do you mean by "tune the design
`process"?
` A So I mean that, ultimately, if I'm
`designing something to work in low light
`conditions, then I would have to build a design
`that works in low light conditions. If I need to
`build something that works in sunlight, then I
`have to tune it to make sure that it has the specs
`to work in sunlight. So that's what I mean. It's
`like the specs of the system has to match the
`condition in which you're applying it.
` Q And you couldn't get -- at the time
`we're talking about -- and just for clarity, all
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`RALPH ETIENNE-CUMMINGS, Ph.D. December 11, 2015
`Page 15
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`of my questions are going to relate to the time
`before the -- more than a year before the
`application was filed.
` A Sure.
` Q So at that time, there wasn't anything
`off the shelf that would let the person do that,
`get a -- there wasn't a vision system that I could
`get and tune for the application that I wanted, or
`was there?
` MR. YONAN: Objection, vague.
` A So each application at hand had to be --
`had to be tuned. So if you found such an
`application -- if you were to -- this is now
`speculation or it's, you know, hypothetical. If
`you were to find such a thing, it would probably
`work in one domain but not in another. So one has
`to be particularly careful, if one wants a
`component that works in a particular domain, that
`one picks the right set of parameters that makes
`it work in that domain.
` Q When you say "domain," what do you mean?
` A So I mean if I am working -- well, let's
`go back to kind of what we're talking about here,
`which is, you know, these references in these
`patents. If I am working on a -- if I have a
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`RALPH ETIENNE-CUMMINGS, Ph.D. December 11, 2015
`Page 16
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`system that's used to look, let's say, rearward
`from a vehicle, and then I want to now make it
`look forward, that's a completely different set of
`parameters from a perspective of what that scene
`would look like. So a camera or a system, a
`vision system, that may work looking backwards may
`not work at all looking forward.
` Q So would it be your testimony that you
`are unaware of any system off the shelf that you
`could -- that was designed, say, to look
`backwards, that you could have looked forward?
`You're not aware of anything like that?
` A You can always have it look forward, but
`will it give you anything of use? Will it do what
`it's intended to do? Will it provide the data
`that you need to do anything of use looking
`forward. That's what, you know -- that's the
`problem.
` Q So is it your testimony that you're
`unaware of any system that off the shelf was
`adaptable to be used in different environments?
` MR. YONAN: Objection. Asked and
`answered.
` A Also very vague, unfortunately.
`"Different environments," I mean, there's multiple
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`RALPH ETIENNE-CUMMINGS, Ph.D. December 11, 2015
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`different environments. What specific environment
`are you referring to?
` Q Let's say something that you could
`use -- we'll stick with the rearward camera.
` A Right.
` Q But, let's say, use that in a medical
`application.
` A So it, again, depends on the conditions
`of the environment, right? So, for example, what
`is the light level.
` Q Okay.
` A So think about it this way. I have a
`camera that's in my garage. You know, the garage
`is generally dark. So I have a system that sees
`me moving around in my garage. Now I take that
`same thing and I go outside in the bright
`sunlight. You're not going to see anything. It's
`all going to be completely saturated, completely.
` Q Okay. So --
` A It's that kind of thing, right? It's
`basically the environment in which this vision
`system has to exist has to be one where the
`parameters of that environment has to be
`considered. Otherwise, it's not going to be of
`use.
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`RALPH ETIENNE-CUMMINGS, Ph.D. December 11, 2015
`Page 18
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` Q Okay. So are you aware of any system
`that could be used -- we'll use -- we'll stay with
`rearward cameras --
` A Sure.
` Q -- which is to detect headlights. That
`seems to me to be a low light condition, right?
` A Not exactly.
` Q No?
` A No. You can look at the reference by
`Yadid-Pecht, where she argues and, in general,
`true to be the case that the headlight itself,
`that point where the headlight hits the camera is
`actually something on the order of about two or
`three orders of magnitude brighter than sun. So
`it's not a low light condition. Now, around it,
`maybe. But those two points that corresponds to
`that headlights, no.
` Q So compare that environment to a surgery
`room where I've got bright lights. Could I use
`the technology that identifies the bright lights
`of a headlight in a surgery room where I have
`steady, constant bright light but not two or three
`times the brightness of the sun?
` A Right. So --
` MR. YONAN: Objection, speculation.
`
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`RALPH ETIENNE-CUMMINGS, Ph.D. December 11, 2015
`Page 19
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` A So that was what I was -- that was
`not -- it was not part of the consideration that I
`had, right? It was not a --
` Q Right.
` A -- one of the references because I don't
`think it appears in my declaration anywhere.
` Q Right.
` A So I would have to evaluate that
`situation entirely and determine whether or not,
`you know, the system at hand could be used. But
`I'm speaking now as a -- you know, kind of based
`on my experience, based on my knowledge --
` Q Yes.
` A -- that it would not be -- it would not
`be necessarily an easy transition. It would not
`be necessarily a predictable transition. It would
`not be necessarily a known transition to use that
`camera that's been in -- used to look backwards
`on -- you know, to track headlights behind me to
`now go into the OR and try to measure lights in
`the OR. It's not something that I've given much
`thought to, to tell you the truth.
` Q Based on the research that you've done
`and your own personal experience, are you aware of
`any system that would allow you or would enable
`
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`RALPH ETIENNE-CUMMINGS, Ph.D. December 11, 2015
`Page 20
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`you to do that, to make that transition?
` MR. YONAN: Same objection.
`Speculation.
` A Based on my analysis, I didn't see
`anything that would allow me to do that, no.
` Q Perfect.
` A And just be clear about that, yes, I
`don't see anything that -- given the fact that I
`don't know the exact lighting conditions and so on
`and so forth, right, I put it in that context.
` Q Right.
` A Because that was never a point of
`analysis, right, to look at OR. I don't know how
`bright it is and so on and so forth.
` Q Right. How about this room?
` A Yes, but you've got to, you know, have
`measurements, right, measurements of the lighting
`in this room for me to know -- also, one thing you
`don't realize is that this room has a lot of
`flicker. The light is shaking back and forth.
`Can the vision system handle that? Don't know
`until you test it, until you look at the
`algorithms and you look at the camera.
` Q You don't know if the Vellacott system
`would handle the flicker and the lights?
`
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`RALPH ETIENNE-CUMMINGS, Ph.D. December 11, 2015
`Page 21
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` A No idea.
` Q On page 32 --
` A Yes.
` Q -- the last sentence in the top
`paragraph, "The comparative disadvantages of CMOS
`meant that vision system designers found CMOS
`undesirable for high-speed and high-resolution
`applications, such as vehicle vision systems."
` Do you have any citation to support
`that?
` A So let us -- this is obviously in
`context of everything that's come before, right?
` Q Right.
` A So resolution obviously is not just how
`many pixels there are but also what is the dynamic
`range, and there's no question that at that time
`folks like, again, Yadid-Pecht were working
`fervently on trying to understand how to extend
`the dynamic range of the photodetectors in order
`for it to be -- have a useful application, a
`useful, wide range of application, number one.
` Number two, and I notice that it says --
`I notice that it says, "CMOS image -- imagers of
`the mid '90s (and, in particular, PPS)" -- right,
`passive pixel CMOS image sensors -- "had
`
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`RALPH ETIENNE-CUMMINGS, Ph.D. December 11, 2015
`Page 22
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`substantial and significant disadvantages compared
`to CCDs at that time. CCDs had fewer electronic
`components in the pixels and had quieter sensor
`substrates. CCDs also have inherent tolerance to
`bus capacitance variation and common output
`amplifiers with transistor geometries that could
`be easily adapted for minimal noise."
` Then you say -- then I say, "The
`comparative disadvantage then of CMOS meant that
`vision systems found CMOS undesirable for high
`speed and high resolution applications such as the
`vehicle -- such as the vehicle systems."
` So that, again, refers back to,
`particularly, in particular PPSs, right, passive
`pixel sensors. Those were known at that time to
`be particularly bad. In fact, today, there is no
`PPS on the market, as far as I know. And by the
`early 2000s, PPSs were the last time where they
`were looked at as a potential viable CMOS sensor.
` Q Right. I believe, though, your -- your
`statement was that -- let me see if I can find it
`again -- "The comparative disadvantages of CMOS
`meant that vision system designers found CMOS
`undesirable for high-speed and high-resolution
`applications, such as vehicle vision systems."
`
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`RALPH ETIENNE-CUMMINGS, Ph.D. December 11, 2015
`Page 23
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` A Right.
` Q Okay. So the only support you have for
`that conclusion is what you've referenced,
`correct?
` A That, and my vast knowledge of -- my
`knowledge of passive pixel sensors. Plus, if you
`even look further and you look on page 35, there's
`a plot showing essentially the signal-to-noise
`ratio because signal-to-noise is related to, in
`some ways, to resolution as well. That's the
`dynamic resolution of a pixel. And you can see
`that PPS is way below that of APS and so on.
` So, in general, that was the
`understanding at that time, and, in fact, also at
`that time -- I don't know if you're familiar with
`the ISSCC, the International Symposium of
`Solid-State Circuits -- or the International
`Solid-State Circuits Conference. That's where the
`most recent developments in image sensors were
`being presented on a yearly basis. That was one
`of the place where folks were trying to solve this
`problem, trying to solve speed, trying to solve
`resolution, trying to solve ways to make the CMOS
`sensors better. So in 1995, this was definitely
`the truth -- the case.
`
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`RALPH ETIENNE-CUMMINGS, Ph.D. December 11, 2015
`Page 24
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` Q I'm focusing on vehicle vision systems.
` A Right.
` Q I get your general concept that it
`wasn't as good and -- you know, it wasn't as good
`as CCD, and active pixel wasn't there yet, and had
`a lot of problems. But you say here, "Vision
`system designers found CMOS undesirable for
`high-speed and high-resolution applications, such
`as vehicle systems."
` Do you have any evidence that CMOS was
`undesirable in a vehicle vision system setting?
` MR. YONAN: Objection. Asked and
`answered.
` A So vehicle vision requires that same
`kind of resolution and speed that I referred to,
`right? So, consequently, if the problem was with
`the speed and resolution that I've just referred
`to, then applying it in the vehicle vision system
`still had the same speed and resolution issues
`that I just referred to.
` Q Sure.
` A So, yes, so for vehicle vision systems,
`the same CMOS being used in those cases would have
`the same problems that I've articulated
`previously.
`
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`RALPH ETIENNE-CUMMINGS, Ph.D. December 11, 2015
`Page 25
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` Q What can you point to specifically, if
`anything, that CMOS was unacceptable in the
`vehicle vision system setting?
` MR. YONAN: Asked and answered.
` A So, again, I mean, I would just go back
`to reiterating my point, right.
` Q So the only thing you can say is that
`generally CMOS was not as good as CCD.
` A Or was -- was -- yes, it was not as good
`as in some -- in some aspects, PPS, in
`particular -- passive pixel sensors, in
`particular -- and there was a lot of research
`being done at that time to improve the thing and
`that conferences and workshops were being set up
`in order to try to resolve these issues and that
`vehicle vision system has particular requirements.
`And, as a result, they were not ready for prime
`time, so to speak.
` Q So, as you sit here today, are you aware
`of any CMOS system that was successfully used in
`that time frame in a vehicle vision system?
` A So you mean at that time frame.
` Q Yes.
` A So I am aware of the Donnelly
`application looking backwards through the cabin
`
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`RALPH ETIENNE-CUMMINGS, Ph.D. December 11, 2015
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`and looking at the headlights.
` Q Yes.
` A That's part of the Vellacott reference.
`However, those were particular conditions, right,
`where the car behind you had to be -- was
`essentially moving at the same rate as you are.
`The headlights, if you will, on those image
`sensors tend to almost stationary relative to what
`you are using.
` So, yes, so there, I imagine, is a
`scenario where it is in a vehicle vision system,
`but the conditions -- and that's what I keep
`referring back to earlier on and throughout my
`declarations -- that the condition matches, right.
` Q So in your hypothetical, the people
`behind the car don't drive as fast as I do.
` A Sometimes. Maybe they come up real
`quick, but it's always the difference between you
`and them. So that's much slower than if you are
`looking forward and you're looking at
`(indicating).
` Q You don't drive with me. It's not that
`different.
` Okay.
` Okay. If we could look at page 48. And
`
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`RALPH ETIENNE-CUMMINGS, Ph.D. December 11, 2015
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`I'll let you read it instead of me reading it.
`The last sentence in 87 and the first sentence in
`88, if you could read those.
` A Yes.
` (Document review.)
` Q Would you agree with me that --
` A One second, let me just finish, I'm
`sorry. Let me just make sure that I get all the
`components.
` Q Sure. That's another rule. Don't let
`me force you. If you want to read more, do it,
`tell me. That's fine.
` A Cool.
` MR. YONAN: Jon is very good at that
`rule.
` A Uh-hmm, yes.
` Q And then the third sentence in 88 reads,
`"Without further direction from Vellacott, one
`could not," and "not" is emphasized, "assume that
`making a 512 by 512 array would be within the
`level of ordinary skill."
` Is it your testimony that a 512 by 512
`CMOS array was not available in the relevant time
`frame?
` A So rough -- reading the references at
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`RALPH ETIENNE-CUMMINGS, Ph.D. December 11, 2015
`Page 28
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`hand, with my knowledge of what was happening at
`that time, and I believe that the last sentence of
`87 talks about what was being published at the
`IEEE and what was being published at the SPIE at
`that time. The movement from a 128 to a 256 to a
`512 was still very much an active area of
`research. Commercially, even in -- even in
`Vellacott, Vellacott says VVL is working towards
`or is in the process of developing. And what does
`that mean? I don't know, do they just conceive it
`and then decided that they were going to do it in
`ten years? I don't know, right. I have no clue
`of what that means in long-term. But the point is
`that at that time, commercially, you know, there
`was -- as far as I remember, there was no 512 by
`512 in CMOS available.
` Q How about noncommercially? Are you
`aware of any 512 by 512 CMOS array in the relevant
`time frame?
` A Sure. So at that -- so I go by what's
`being published in literature.
` Q Right. Right.
` A Right. And taking the ISSCC 1996
`publication as a benchmark because at that time
`that was the benchmark. They were still talking
`
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`RALPH ETIENNE-CUMMINGS, Ph.D. December 11, 2015
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`about 128 by 128, maybe 256 by 256. I don't
`remember at that time of a system that was 512 by
`512.
` Q Okay. If there was a 512 by 512 CMOS
`system available at that time, would that affect
`your testimony?
` A N
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