PENG LIM 10/28/2015
`
` IN THE UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 1
`
` SONY COMPUTER ENTERTAINMENT
`
` AMERICA LLC,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` -vs- Case No. IPR2015-00230
`
` Patent No. 7,463,245
`
` APLIX IP HOLDINGS CORPORATION,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
`
`
` DEPOSITION OF PENG LIM
`
` PALO ALTO, CALIFORNIA
`
` WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 28, 2015
`
`
`
` Reported by: LOUISE MARIE SOUSOURES, CSR NO. 3575
`
` Certified LiveNote Reporter
`
`
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3 4
`
`5
`
`6 7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`www.midwestlitigation.com
`
`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`SCEA Ex. 1041 Page 1
`
`
`
` IN THE UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 1
`
` SONY COMPUTER ENTERTAINMENT
`
` AMERICA LLC,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` -vs- Case No. IPR2015-00230
`
` Patent No. 7,463,245
`
` APLIX IP HOLDINGS CORPORATION,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
`
`
` DEPOSITION OF PENG LIM
`
` PALO ALTO, CALIFORNIA
`
` WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 28, 2015
`
`
`
` Reported by: LOUISE MARIE SOUSOURES, CSR NO. 3575
`
` Certified LiveNote Reporter
`
`
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3 4
`
`5
`
`6 7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`www.midwestlitigation.com
`
`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`SCEA Ex. 1041 Page 1
`
`
`
`PENG LIM 10/28/2015
`
`Page 2
`
` Deposition of PENG LIM, taken on behalf of the
`
` Petitioner, before Louise Marie Sousoures, a Certified
`
` Shorthand Reporter and a Certified LiveNote Reporter
`
` commencing on WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 28, 2015 at 9:01 a.m.
`
` at 625 El Camino Real, Palo Alto, California.
`
` A P P E A R A N C E S
`
` FOR THE PETITIONER:
`
` ERISE IP
`
` 5600 GREENWOOD PLAZA BOULEVARD, SUITE 200
`
` GREENWOOD VILLAGE, COLORADO 80111
`
` BY: ABRAN KEAN,
`
` ATTORNEY AT LAW
`
` 720.689.5440
`
` FOR THE PATENT OWNER:
`
` GREENE ESPEL PLLP
`
` 222 SOUTH NINTH STREET, SUITE 2200
`
` MINNEAPOLIS, MINNESOTA 55402
`
` BY: ROBERT J. GILBERTSON,
`
` ATTORNEY AT LAW
`
` 612.373.0830
`
` ALSO PRESENT:
`
` CALLIE PENDERGRASS, SENIOR TECHNICAL ADVISOR
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6 7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`www.midwestlitigation.com
`
`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`SCEA Ex. 1041 Page 2
`
`
`
`PENG LIM 10/28/2015
`
`Page 3
`
` IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED
`
` by and between the attorneys for the
`
` respective parties herein, that filing and
`
` sealing be and the same are hereby waived.
`
` IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED
`
` that all objections, except as to the form
`
` of the question, shall be reserved to the
`
` time of the trial.
`
` IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED
`
` that the within deposition may be sworn to
`
` and signed before any officer authorized
`
` to administer an oath, with the same
`
` force and effect as if signed and sworn
`
` to before the Court.
`
`
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`www.midwestlitigation.com
`
`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`SCEA Ex. 1041 Page 3
`
`
`
`PENG LIM 10/28/2015
`
`Page 4
`
` INDEX OF EXAMINATIONS
`
` PAGE
`
` BY
`
` MR. KEAN 7
`
` MR. GILBERTSON 183
`
` INDEX OF EXHIBITS
`
` NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE NOTED
`
` Exhibit 1023 Document entitled "Powerful 12
`
` calculators throw teachers
`
` a new curve"
`
` Exhibit 1024 Document entitled "Stylistic 18
`
` 1200 pen tablet user's guide"
`
` Exhibit 1025 Document entitled "Happy 20th 19
`
` birthday, Windows 95"
`
` Exhibit 1026 Document entitled "Pen computer 27
`
` technology"
`
` Exhibit 1027 Document entitled "Fujitsu and 32
`
` the tablet PC"
`
` Exhibit 1028 Document entitled "Stylistic 35
`
` ST4000 series tablet PC"
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6 7 8 9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`www.midwestlitigation.com
`
`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`SCEA Ex. 1041 Page 4
`
`
`
`PENG LIM 10/28/2015
`
` INDEX OF EXHIBITS (CONTINUED)
`
`Page 5
`
` NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE NOTED
`
` Exhibit 1029 Document entitled "Stylistic 37
`
` ST4000 series tablet PC
`
` technical reference guide"
`
` Exhibit 1030 Document entitled "Windows XP 39
`
` Tablet PC Edition review"
`
` Exhibit 1031 Document, screen shot Tapwave 68
`
` web site
`
` Exhibit 1032 (Not marked)
`
` Exhibit 1033 Document entitled "User's guide" 169
`
` Exhibit 1034 Document entitled "The 12 cell 171
`
` phones that changed our world
`
` forever"
`
` Exhibit 1035 Document entitled "The 25 best 172
`
` selling cell phones of all time"
`
` Exhibit 1036 Document entitled "Why my 173
`
` favorite phone of all time is
`
` an old Nokia"
`
`1
`
`2 3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`www.midwestlitigation.com
`
`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`SCEA Ex. 1041 Page 5
`
`
`
`PENG LIM 10/28/2015
`
` INDEX OF PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS
`
`Page 6
`
` NUMBER PAGE REFERENCED
`
` Exhibit 1001 154
`
` Exhibit 1003 108
`
` Exhibit 1004 105
`
` Exhibit 1016 51
`
` Exhibit 2005 9
`
` Exhibit 2026 167
`
`1
`
`2 3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`www.midwestlitigation.com
`
`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`SCEA Ex. 1041 Page 6
`
`
`
`PENG LIM 10/28/2015
`
`Page 7
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` PENG LIM,
`
` having been first duly sworn by the
`
` Certified Shorthand Reporter to tell
`
` the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
`
` but the truth, testified as follows:
`
` EXAMINATION
`
` BY MR. KEAN:
`
` Q. Good morning, sir.
`
` Would you please state your name for the
`
` record?
`
` A. Sure. My name is Peng Lim.
`
` Q. And Mr. Lim, have you been deposed before?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Do you know Beth Marcus?
`
` A. Beth Marcus, the inventor?
`
` Q. Yes.
`
` A. No, I don't.
`
` Q. Do you know David Lee, the other inventor?
`
` A. No, I don't.
`
` Q. How are you compensated for your work in
`
` connection with this case?
`
` A. Paid.
`
` Q. Is that hourly pay?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. What's your hourly rate?
`
`www.midwestlitigation.com
`
`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`SCEA Ex. 1041 Page 7
`
`
`
`PENG LIM 10/28/2015
`
`Page 8
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` A. 385.
`
` Q. How many hours would you say you spent on
`
` this proceeding -- I'll call it the '245 proceeding
`
` today. If I call it the '245 proceeding, will you be
`
` familiar with what I'm talking about?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. How many hours would you estimate that
`
` you've spent working on the '245 proceeding?
`
` A. All inclusive, right? Licensed patents?
`
` Q. Yes.
`
` A. 50 to 100, maybe 70 to 100, somewhere around
`
` there, hours I mean.
`
` Q. Since you never have been deposed before, it
`
` might helpful if I go over a couple of ground rules.
`
` I'll do my best today not to speak over you
`
` if you'll extend me the same courtesy and that will
`
` make the court reporter's job easier.
`
` A. Yes, I will. I'll try my best.
`
` Q. It's also important to provide the court
`
` reporter with verbal answers, so verbal yes or no
`
` because, obviously, head shakes and nods don't make it
`
` onto the record.
`
` A. Okay.
`
` Q. It's not a marathon today. If you'd like to
`
` take a break at any time, let me know and we can take
`
`www.midwestlitigation.com
`
`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`SCEA Ex. 1041 Page 8
`
`
`
`PENG LIM 10/28/2015
`
`Page 9
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` a break whenever you like.
`
` A. Thank you. I appreciate that.
`
` Q. Mr. Lim, I've handed you what's been marked
`
` previously as Exhibit 2005 in the '245 proceeding.
`
` Do you recognize this document?
`
` A. Yes, I do.
`
` Q. What is it?
`
` A. It's my declaration.
`
` Q. And if you turn to the final page, page 61 of
`
` that document --
`
` A. 61, yes.
`
` Q. -- this is your signature?
`
` A. Yes, that's mine.
`
` Q. Do you have any additions or changes to this
`
` declaration before we get started today?
`
` A. Yes. While I was flipping through it, I
`
` realized that is formatting error, a small format,
`
` indent format, when I flip through it earlier.
`
` If you flip to page 46, okay.
`
` The number 2 on the bottom, opinion of
`
` nonobviousness, you see that page 46?
`
` Q. Yes, sir.
`
` A. That I believe it should be opinions of
`
` bullet 1, so the 2 should not be there, the number 2
`
` should not be there.
`
`www.midwestlitigation.com
`
`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`SCEA Ex. 1041 Page 9
`
`
`
`PENG LIM 10/28/2015
`
`Page 10
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` Then, if you flip -- I'm sorry, do you follow
`
` me, if you flip to page 47, it say A, incorporating
`
` Andrews, that A should be a 2, you follow me?
`
` Q. Yes, sir. What might be easiest, would you
`
` mark the document how you would like to fix it.
`
` A. I would just say that and then that should
`
` be -- let me double-check it. That should be A.
`
` Q. Very good, thank you.
`
` Do you have any other changes or additions to
`
` that document?
`
` A. I don't believe so at this point.
`
` Q. Okay. Mr. Lim, I'd like to discuss your
`
` background and so in your declaration, I'm going to be
`
` starting about at paragraph 10 of your declaration.
`
` A. Paragraph 10. Yes, sir.
`
` Q. You worked at Texas Instruments from 1996
`
` until 1997; is that right?
`
` A. That is correct.
`
` Q. Were you familiar with the Texas Instruments
`
` graphing calculators that were available at that time?
`
` A. I was aware of it. It wasn't in my
`
` department.
`
` Q. What was your department?
`
` A. Notebook department. I forgot exact name of
`
` the department, but the end product is notebook. I
`
`www.midwestlitigation.com
`
`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`SCEA Ex. 1041 Page 10
`
`
`
`PENG LIM 10/28/2015
`
`Page 11
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` managed engineering there, computer.
`
` Q. For instance, you were at least familiar with
`
` the TI 85 graphing calculator?
`
` A. I wouldn't say familiar. I mean it's a
`
` product on the market, not part of my department and I
`
` wasn't using it at the time, so I wouldn't say --
`
` depends on your definition of familiar. I heard of
`
` it.
`
` Q. Sure. Were you aware that that calculator
`
` was programmable in BASIC or Assembly language at the
`
` time?
`
` A. I couldn't say one way or the other, to be
`
` honest with you.
`
` I wasn't using it and, of course, when I was
`
` in college, you know, it was Casio brand, a different
`
` calculator brand. I'm sorry, I will try to be --
`
` MR. GILBERTSON: I think the words might have
`
` been casual use.
`
` THE WITNESS: Casio, C-A-S-I-O.
`
` BY MR. KEAN:
`
` Q. Mr. Lim, I'm going to hand you a document
`
` that's been marked -- this is a new exhibit and we are
`
` going to continue the numbering from the '245
`
` proceedings.
`
` So this exhibit is now numbered 1023.
`
`www.midwestlitigation.com
`
`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`SCEA Ex. 1041 Page 11
`
`
`
`PENG LIM 10/28/2015
`
`Page 12
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` If you would, Mr. Lim, please turn to the
`
` second page of the document and please take a look at
`
` the second to last paragraph at the bottom of the
`
` document as well as the last paragraph that carries
`
` over into page 3.
`
` Yes, sir. And then please take a look at
`
` that and read that. You don't need to read it out
`
` loud, but once you've taken a look at it, just let me
`
` know.
`
` A. Okay.
`
` Q. Now, this document is an article from the New
`
` York Times from September 2nd, 1999 and in the portion
`
` that I just asked you to read, it's describing Texas
`
` Instruments graphing calculators.
`
` And it's describing the hundreds of games
`
` that were available on those devices.
`
` Did you see that?
`
` A. Yes. That's what it say on this document.
`
` Q. Were you aware in your time at TI that the
`
` graphing calculators could be used to -- that users of
`
` the graphing calculators could install games on them?
`
` A. I was there in 1996 to 1997, so it's about
`
` three years before this article.
`
` To answer your question directly, I did not
`
` aware of that.
`
`www.midwestlitigation.com
`
`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`SCEA Ex. 1041 Page 12
`
`
`
`PENG LIM 10/28/2015
`
` Q. Were you aware that students could program
`
`Page 13
`
` these devices to include games?
`
` A. I don't because if I do I would be
`
` speculating here.
`
` So do I have knowledge of that people were
`
` doing that, I don't -- I did not at that time.
`
` Q. Were you aware that there were hundreds of
`
` games that were available that could be installed on
`
` the graphing calculators?
`
` A. It wasn't my focus at all. It was totally
`
` different department and I wasn't using it. I'm not
`
` sure how to answer I did not know that. Actually
`
` surprised me I see this article.
`
` Q. Is it fair to say that you did not consider
`
` the games on the graphing calculators as part of
`
` forming your opinion in your declaration?
`
` A. I did not see the article that you hand it to
`
` me, nor have I taken this into consideration.
`
` Q. Apart from the article, did you take into
`
` consideration the games that were available for the TI
`
` 85 and other TI calculators at the time when you were
`
` forming your opinion?
`
` A. Anything that I thought the most relevant to
`
` this case here I submitted it as a reference.
`
` So that's what I selected.
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`www.midwestlitigation.com
`
`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`SCEA Ex. 1041 Page 13
`
`
`
`PENG LIM 10/28/2015
`
`Page 14
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` As far as whether I knew TI calculator, did I
`
` take TI calculator into consideration, gaming, no.
`
` Q. Thank you.
`
` I'd like to turn to the next paragraph in
`
` your declaration, paragraph 11.
`
` A. Okay.
`
` Q. And paragraph 11 is describing your time at
`
` Fujitsu?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. You were with Fujitsu as the vice-president
`
` of engineering from 1997 until 1999; is that right?
`
` A. That is correct.
`
` Q. And in your role as a vice-president of
`
` engineering, you worked on the Stylistic tablet
`
` computers; is that correct?
`
` A. Yes, my team.
`
` Q. What operating systems did those tablet
`
` computers run?
`
` A. Windows.
`
` Q. Any particular version of Windows?
`
` A. I believe it's Windows 95. I think that's
`
` pre-XP.
`
` '97, again, this is long time ago, 95
`
` probably would be the most appropriate. If not 95, it
`
` would be XP, but Microsoft Windows for sure.
`
`www.midwestlitigation.com
`
`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`SCEA Ex. 1041 Page 14
`
`
`
`PENG LIM 10/28/2015
`
`Page 15
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` Q. There was not a specialized version of
`
` Windows 95 for tablets at the time, was there?
`
` A. Operating system itself I believe is mostly
`
` generic.
`
` Application itself, drivers of the device and
`
` hardware, a lot of them are specialized meaning that
`
` every manufacturer would produce their own hardware,
`
` would write their own drivers and Fujitsu, actually we
`
` have our own driver that's specific for something that
`
` we would like to do and we would submit it to
`
` Microsoft and Microsoft would pass it, make sure it
`
` work and then include it into the quote, unquote, the
`
` bundle of our property.
`
` Q. So again, there was not a specialized version
`
` of Windows 95 for tablet computers, right?
`
` A. As I say earlier, I would say that majority
`
` of the Windows generic -- generic in the sense as you
`
` know, but when it come to tablet or notebook the power
`
` management I could not say they are generic.
`
` There are few area -- couldn't say few, quite
`
` a bit of the area that are very specific to certain
`
` device to certain application. I'll give you example,
`
` power management, power management will be very
`
` important for devices like tablet, like notebook while
`
` it's not important at all for desktop computer.
`
`www.midwestlitigation.com
`
`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`SCEA Ex. 1041 Page 15
`
`
`
`PENG LIM 10/28/2015
`
`Page 16
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` LCD support, LCD support is very important
`
` for a tablet and a notebook, not so important back in
`
` those days for, again, for your desktop.
`
` I can give you many, many, many area that are
`
` differences that you have a bundle into the product
`
` and that's not to mention that manufacturer specific.
`
` When I say "manufacturer," that means
`
` Fujitsu, you know, Toshiba, Compaq, manufacturer
`
` specific.
`
` So when I say generically, I was referring to
`
` kind of very high level, but when you're coming down,
`
` it become more and more specific.
`
` By the time you get into the Fujitsu
`
` computer, right, I would say that it could be true
`
` even today. I think by the time that it get into your
`
` device, that operating system, that bundled operating
`
` system are not transferable to another computer and
`
` just say that you're running.
`
` For example, you cannot take a Fujitsu bundle
`
` of the operating system and the drivers and everything
`
` else and say I'm going to take the hardware away, I'm
`
` going to buy a, just for example, buy a Toshiba and
`
` put the -- load this software into the Toshiba,
`
` totally replace everything that Toshiba has inside and
`
` expect it to run reliably. I would say it would not,
`
`www.midwestlitigation.com
`
`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`SCEA Ex. 1041 Page 16
`
`
`
`PENG LIM 10/28/2015
`
`Page 17
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` reliably.
`
` So in that sense, at the very high level you
`
` say that yeah, it look similar, but by the time you
`
` get to the hardware -- by the time you get to the
`
` product itself, it would not be the same.
`
` Does that answer your question?
`
` Q. Maybe. When you say it looks similar, do you
`
` mean that the user interface and the applications that
`
` would be available on Windows 95 on a tablet would be
`
` the same as on a PC?
`
` A. Can you repeat that again?
`
` MR. KEAN: Would you repeat that for me,
`
` please?
`
` (The record was read by the Reporter.)
`
` THE WITNESS: You mention about the
`
` application and the user interface, right.
`
` In that sense, depends on what application
`
` and what user interface.
`
` Give you an example. If you buy a tablet
`
` computer for the purpose that for when Fujitsu was
`
` selling them, usually there are some dedicated
`
` application that would be -- would be loaded on top of
`
` the operating system itself that will have a very
`
` specific purpose for that application.
`
` In that case, there will be different kind of
`
`www.midwestlitigation.com
`
`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`SCEA Ex. 1041 Page 17
`
`
`
`PENG LIM 10/28/2015
`
`Page 18
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` user interface on it that will be suitable for
`
` whatever corporation it needed to.
`
` However, if there are application that are,
`
` how do I say, commonly used that would come with
`
` operating system, then it's possible, I got to
`
` think -- it's possible, but in the application on the
`
` tablet many times are quite specific, but they are
`
` generic out there, too, I don't want to rule
`
` everything out.
`
` I'll give you -- the example I want to give
`
` you, I almost wanted to say like a pop-up keyboard,
`
` but pop-up keyboard is very specific for handheld that
`
` is not on the desktop, that's not a thing to show you
`
` the difference, but -- I don't know, maybe Lotus or
`
` maybe Excel would work, I would guess.
`
` BY MR. KEAN:
`
` Q. I'm going to hand you a document marked
`
` Exhibit 1024. This document is a users's guide for
`
` the Fujitsu Stylistic 1200.
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Would you please turn with me to pages 2-6?
`
` A. 2-6.
`
` Q. Toward the top of the page under the number
`
` 3 --
`
` A. Number 3.
`
`www.midwestlitigation.com
`
`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`SCEA Ex. 1041 Page 18
`
`
`
`PENG LIM 10/28/2015
`
` Q. -- it identifies various operating systems
`
` that work on this device.
`
` It notes that the device runs Windows 95 and
`
`Page 19
`
` Windows NT?
`
` A. Uh-huh.
`
` Q. Would you agree with that?
`
` A. That's what it say here and I did tell you it
`
` was 95 or XP, I couldn't remember.
`
` Q. I'm going to hand you a document that has
`
` been previously marked -- new exhibit, but it's marked
`
` 1025.
`
` A. 1025, yes.
`
` Q. This document is a review of Windows 95.
`
` Will you please take a quick minute just to
`
` read the document?
`
` A. The whole page?
`
` Q. Yes, sir.
`
` You know what might be more efficient, I can
`
` direct you to the most relevant portion of this, it's
`
` going to be right in the middle of the page, it's the
`
` sixth paragraph.
`
` A. Windows 95?
`
` Q. Yes, sir.
`
` A. Okay.
`
` Q. This document is a review of Windows 95 and
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`www.midwestlitigation.com
`
`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`SCEA Ex. 1041 Page 19
`
`
`
`PENG LIM 10/28/2015
`
`Page 20
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` it's describing some, quote, "much-loved games" that
`
` came with the operating system including favorites
`
` such as Minesweeper, Hearts, Freecell and Solitaire?
`
` A. Uh-huh.
`
` Q. Do you agree that Windows 95 included these
`
` games?
`
` A. I'm not sure it included, but I think it
`
` could run these games.
`
` Windows 95, when I say a little bit earlier
`
` on the higher level, right, it looks similar.
`
` Windows 95 also run on desktops, so that I'm
`
` not sure you're aware of it, run on desktop, run on
`
` notebook, run on tablets and it tends to specialize or
`
` customize as you go down to different category of the
`
` product.
`
` So at the very high level, they are, and I
`
` would say that yes, it could run, I'm not sure whether
`
` it bundle with it, that's what I mean.
`
` Q. Sure. Would you agree with me, sir, the
`
` Stylistic 1200 could run Windows 95?
`
` A. Yes, it could run Windows 95.
`
` Q. Would you agree with me the Stylistic 1200
`
` running Windows 95 could include games such as
`
` Minesweeper, Hearts, Freecell and Solitaire?
`
` A. As reported in my report, as I wrote in my
`
`www.midwestlitigation.com
`
`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`SCEA Ex. 1041 Page 20
`
`
`
`PENG LIM 10/28/2015
`
`Page 21
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` report that Stylistic 1200 was designed for the
`
` corporate or what we call vertical market.
`
` So that question you asked me is difficult
`
` for me to answer simply because would people load
`
` games into Stylistic 1200 for the purpose of Fujitsu
`
` was selling them and they were buying them for
`
` vertical market, in my report, the answer is very,
`
` very unlikely.
`
` And I give the reason in there that why it's
`
` unlikely because in the corporate world, gamings is
`
` not something that any corporate would endorse except,
`
` you know, in the gaming company.
`
` Other than that, not something that would
`
` endorse.
`
` So on the surface, on the very high level,
`
` yes, it could run. I think your question is would
`
` people load that into the 1200, Fujitsu Stylistic
`
` 1200, I would say very unlikely for the application.
`
` Q. Sure. We will discuss the vertical markets
`
` and all that here in a bit.
`
` My question for you is: Would the Stylistic
`
` 1200, if a user had that device, could they load
`
` Windows 95 and if so, could they also load these games
`
` mentioned in this Windows review such as Minesweeper,
`
` Hearts, Freecell and Solitaire?
`
`www.midwestlitigation.com
`
`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`SCEA Ex. 1041 Page 21
`
`
`
`PENG LIM 10/28/2015
`
`Page 22
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` A. The first part is yes, they can load Windows
`
` 95, come with the Fujitsu. At that time there were
`
` CDs that come with computer they can load into it.
`
` The question is yes, if you follow the
`
` procedure you can load Windows 95 into the 1200, the
`
` version Fujitsu give it to you, right.
`
` Can you run that software, I guess you -- I
`
` mean it's -- it's a computer, right.
`
` I want to say it's not likely people do that,
`
` but people that want to do that on purpose, I guess
`
` they could, yeah.
`
` Q. Thank you.
`
` Did you do any work at Fujitsu after 1999?
`
` A. No, I left Fujitsu in 1999.
`
` Q. So after 1999, did you have any access to
`
` Fujitsu business plans?
`
` A. After 1999, I do not.
`
` Q. After 1999, did you have any access to
`
` Fujitsu marketing plans?
`
` A. I do not have internal marketing plan except
`
` I was in the industry, industry in the sense of
`
` tablet, PDA industry. Anything that was publicly
`
` announced, I would be aware of it, but not the
`
` proprietary information.
`
` Q. Were you involved in the development of any
`
`www.midwestlitigation.com
`
`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`SCEA Ex. 1041 Page 22
`
`
`
`PENG LIM 10/28/2015
`
`Page 23
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` Stylistic products after 1999?
`
` A. No, I do not -- I did not, I should say.
`
` Q. Were you involved in the development of any
`
` other Fujitsu products after 1999?
`
` A. After I left the company, I did not.
`
` Q. Were you aware that after you left Fujitsu,
`
` by around the 2002 time frame, tablets were moving in
`
` the direction of consumer markets?
`
` A. I heard about it, yes. I also heard about it
`
` that, of course, that round of product wasn't
`
` successful -- let me explain to you.
`
` In the computer world, in most of the
`
` industry, in the computer industry, there's always a
`
` way that people would like to go into consumer market
`
` and that wasn't -- I mean even if what you say is
`
` correct, and I believe it is, that at the time there
`
` was some discussion about going to consumer market,
`
` that wasn't the first time either.
`
` There were multiple times that in the
`
` computer industry, that it always thought at the very
`
` more focused corporate market and gradually over time
`
` when the technology getting more mature, when the cost
`
` getting lower, when the user more familiar with it,
`
` you know, computer is special machine, so it start
`
` with, you know, professional, usually, and start
`
`www.midwestlitigation.com
`
`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`SCEA Ex. 1041 Page 23
`
`
`
`PENG LIM 10/28/2015
`
`Page 24
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` propagating down to consumer, but technology is
`
` important, cost is important, battery life is
`
` important.
`
` So yes, there's always a wave of companies or
`
` industry that wanted to get into consumer, but my
`
` understanding, even certainly up to 1999 I was there,
`
` even post 2002, my recollection is that they will try,
`
` they were not successful.
`
` The one that was successful that commonly
`
` known, as I point out in my report, was the iPad that
`
` we know today, which really pushed the market to be
`
` kind of more consumer market for the tablet market.
`
` Yeah, and I guess it's not only my opinion
`
` here, I think it's industry knowledge that in that
`
` time, early 2000, tablet computer was for professional
`
` and I point out the cost was 4000 plus.
`
` And it's hard to see that a lot of consumer
`
` will buy that.
`
` Q. Sure. I'm just trying to understand your
`
` opinion here because it seems like you said some
`
` things that conflict.
`
` I believe you agree with me that by 2002,
`
` tablet computers were moving towards the consumer
`
` market; is that right?
`
` A. That's not what I meant.
`
`www.midwestlitigation.com
`
`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`SCEA Ex. 1041 Page 24
`
`
`
`PENG LIM 10/28/2015
`
`Page 25
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` Again, the moving is a word I try to
`
` understand.
`
` That's not what I meant.
`
` What I was saying was they were always an
`
` attempt of bringing computer product to the consumer
`
` market, start from desktop the same way, start with
`
` the notebook and I was in the notebook industry for a
`
` long time before I came into handheld market.
`
` That was always an attempt times after times
`
` try to do that.
`
` So that was my understanding that there was
`
` an attempt at the time.
`
` Moving, I don't know what you means.
`
` Q. Sure. So you would agree there were attempts
`
` by Fujitsu and other tablet designers by 2002 to
`
` design and develop tablets that were directed to the
`
` consumer market?
`
` A. I couldn't speak specifically for Fujitsu in
`
` 2000.
`
` In 1999, Fujitsu was actually on the tablet
`
` market not -- intentionally not focused on the
`
` consumer market because we knew that and we were
`
` focusing on the vertical market and we were successful
`
` in the vertical market, we did market study.
`
` The world of computer -- computer doesn't
`
`www.midwestlitigation.com
`
`MIDWEST LITIGATION SERVICES
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`SCEA Ex. 1041 Page 25
`
`
`
`PENG LIM 10/28/2015
`
`Page 26
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` produce -- just produce a computer.
`
` We did a lot of market study, include the
`
` focus group, include a lot of surveys and include
`
` talking to bunch of analysts, people that in the
`
` industry that, you know, tends to survey the market.
`
` From those we took that input coming in,
`
` analyze it, then we produce a product, focus on
`
` certain market that we believe that we could be
`
` successful.
`
` At that time, in the late '90s, Fujitsu was
`
` about vertical market and actually the whole
`
` department -- actually Fujitsu form a brand new
`
` Corporated, Inc., to address that market called
`
` Fujitsu Personal System, if I'm not mistaken, that's
`
` the name, Fujitsu Personal System.
`
` So I cannot speak for Fujitsu was attempting,
`
` I had no clue.
`
` Market, in general I heard about it that
`
` yeah, people tried to do that. It wasn't t
Accessing this document will incur an additional charge of $.
After purchase, you can access this document again without charge.
Accept $ Charge
Still Working On It
This document is taking longer than usual to download. This can happen if we need to contact the court directly to obtain the document and their servers are running slowly.
Give it another minute or two to complete, and then try the refresh button.
A few More Minutes ... Still Working
It can take up to 5 minutes for us to download a document if the court servers are running slowly.
Thank you for your continued patience.
This document could not be displayed.
We could not find this document within its docket. Please go back to the docket page and check the link. If that does not work, go back to the docket and refresh it to pull the newest information.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
You need a Paid Account to view this document. Click here to change your account type.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
Set your membership
status to view this document.
With a Docket Alarm membership, you'll
get a whole lot more, including:
- Up-to-date information for this case.
- Email alerts whenever there is an update.
- Full text search for other cases.
- Get email alerts whenever a new case matches your search.
One Moment Please
The filing “” is large (MB) and is being downloaded.
Please refresh this page in a few minutes to see if the filing has been downloaded. The filing will also be emailed to you when the download completes.
Your document is on its way!
If you do not receive the document in five minutes, contact support at support@docketalarm.com.
Sealed Document
We are unable to display this document, it may be under a court ordered seal.
If you have proper credentials to access the file, you may proceed directly to the court's system using your government issued username and password.
Access Government Site
