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`matches because either you're using all the peaks or
`a subset of the peaks as indicated in Column 12 --
`somewhere it says -- let me find it. Yeah --
`lines 6 and 7, you have the option of unmarking
`peaks, which is disclosed in Iwamura.
` So as soon as you evaluate only a subset
`of the number of locations, you get sublinear time
`search, because all it takes is -- if the length of
`my string is, say, N, and the number of peaks or the
`number of positions that I'm evaluating is sublinear
`in N, I get a sublinear search.
` Q You said if it's sublinear in N, but it's
`not, sir.
` A It is.
` Q Would you agree that as we increase the
`size of the database --
` A Right.
` Q -- the dataset we're searching, that the
`amount of search time will be linear?
` A It's linear only in the size -- in the
`number of musical works. But, again, another
`dimension, as we have said, is the length of each
`musical work.
` Q But lengthening the work doesn't reduce
`the number of peaks.
` NETWORK-1 EXHIBIT A2006
` Google Inc. v. Network-1 Technologies, Inc.
` IPR2015-00345
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` A Well, you can unmark them.
` So if I'm using 20 percent or if I'm using
`5 percent, I'm -- I'm reducing my search speed
`accordingly.
` Q Let's take it one step at a time.
` A Yes.
` Q Case 1. We lengthen the number of musical
`works.
` Would you agree that Iwamura is not
`sublinear in that sense?
` A We increase the number of linear -- yes, I
`agree.
` Q Now, we increase the size of the musical
`works. We don't unmark any peaks; we just increase
`the size of the musical works.
` Would you agree that Iwamura is not
`sublinear to increasing the size of the dataset
`then?
` A It is sublinear in the size of the
`dataset. All it takes is to use a fraction of the
`data that is sublinear, which is what everyone will
`do.
` Q Okay. Then I'm talking about what Iwamura
`teaches. I'm not talking about modifying it by
`taking a fraction of the data.
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` A This is what everyone does.
` So when you do string matching, you are --
`this technique is known as subsampling; right? It's
`very common. You -- you try to evaluate matches,
`and you only evaluate a certain number of positions.
` If you have more and more data, you can
`get away with subsampling even more, meaning you
`look at an even smaller fraction of possible
`matches. That's always how you get sublinear time.
` Q Does Iwamura teach that as we increase the
`size of our dataset or the size of the song, that we
`are going to then change the number of samples that
`we're going to look at?
` A It says it's an option that the user
`can -- can select. I mean, this is --
` Q Where?
` A Well, again, if you look at Column 12 --
` Q Okay. Does Column 12 say anything about
`if we increase the size of the dataset, we're going
`to then reduce the number of peaks that we look at?
` A The user defines -- it's very clear.
` Okay. It says you can select. So you
`select -- you unmark peaks; therefore, you select a
`subset. This is up to the user. So all the user
`has to do -- of course, the user could choose not to
`
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`do that or the user could do that in a way that
`depends on the length of the musical work.
` Q I didn't ask you what Pierre Moulin, as
`the user, could do --
` A Right.
` Q -- with all of his knowledge, in 2015,
`sitting here in this deposition. I'm asking you
`about what's taught here.
` A Yeah.
` Q So let me ask you a specific question.
` A Right.
` Q Does this column -- first of all, you're
`pointing to Column 12, lines 5 through 9; is that
`right?
` A Yes.
` Q Does that -- in Iwamura, Column 12,
`lines 5 through 9 -- state that the algorithms
`should be run as one option by reducing the number
`of peaks if the size of the database increases?
` A It does not say what you just said. It,
`however, discloses that you can select how many
`peaks you use for -- for matching. And it's not
`Pierre Moulin in 2015 who is saying this; this was a
`technique that was used in the '80s already. It's a
`very old technique.
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` Q And you're saying that right now. Okay?
` A Yes.
` Q Did you point, in your Declaration, to any
`written work that discloses that technique? Yes or
`no?
` A I don't remember if I -- if I did.
` Again, I want to supplement my opinion if
`I did not write it down. It's a well-known fact in
`the field of searching that you can use this kind of
`technique. It's very well known.
` Q By supplement your opinion you mean put
`something in a new Declaration that's not in this
`one?
` A No. It's just complementing -- just
`complementing, giving more details about what I have
`written. The fact that peaks can be subsampled is
`not a new opinion. It is there already. I'm
`explaining --
` Q Well, if it's there already, then open up
`your Declaration and point to the portion where you
`cite to any prior art that talks about decreasing
`the number of samples we're going to use as our
`dataset increases.
` MR. ELACQUA: Objection.
` THE WITNESS: I don't recall I did that. As I
`
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`said, this additional explanation is supplementing
`my written opinion in the Declaration.
`BY MR. DOVEL:
` Q Well, I'll get a chance to take your
`deposition when I see your supplemental Declaration.
`That's a separate deposition. I'm talking about
`this one.
` A Again, let me clarify.
` We're talking about sublinearity. The
`Board made a construction of "sublinearity" which is
`somewhat different from the definition I had used in
`my Declaration.
` Q Somewhat different? It's not materially
`different though, is it.
` A Well, it is somewhat different. So --
` Q Is it materially different? Does it
`say anything -- does it mean anything different?
` MR. ELACQUA: Objection.
` THE WITNESS: That's your interpretation --
`BY MR. DOVEL:
` Q Yours.
` A -- for me, any time I see something that
`is different from, you know, my assumption, my
`construction, I reevaluate everything --
` Q Now.
`
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` A -- I'm being careful.
` Q I need an answer to this question.
` Is the Board's definition -- definition of
`"sublinear time search" -- does it mean something
`different than the definition -- definition that you
`set forth in your Declarations?
` A No. They're essentially the same.
` Q Now, let's go back to your -- your
`Declarations.
` Anywhere in your declarations do you
`identify any prior art that disclosed reducing the
`amount of sampling when our database -- our dataset
`increases?
` A I don't recall I did. It's a well-known
`fact. Again, in light of the Board's construction,
`it made me think of additional, supplemental way to
`explain this. It's a well-known fact. It's not a
`revelation.
` Q Does -- in your Declaration, did you point
`to any part of Iwamura that teaches reducing the
`amount of samples or reducing the number of peaks as
`our dataset size increases?
` A I believe I referred to that passage of
`Iwamura. I could check where in my Declaration it
`might be. Okay? It's an option, unmarking peaks.
`
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` Q Well, in Iwamura, I thought we just talked
`about that. This Section 12, lines 5 through 9, is
`that what you're talking about?
` A Yes. Yes.
` Q Column 12, lines 5 through 9, does it
`disclose reducing the number of peaks that we're
`going to search as the size of the database
`increases?
` A It makes it clear to the user that they
`can select the fraction of peaks that they unmark.
`It -- it's very clear.
` Q I didn't ask whether it says you can
`select the fraction.
` A Right.
` Q Withdrawn.
` You would agree, sir, that what Iwamura
`teaches is that you could select the fraction of the
`peaks -- of the peaks that you -- withdrawn.
` You would agree that Iwamura says that we
`can disregard a repeated section of music. That's
`what it says. That's one example; right?
` A Yes.
` Q It also says the user setting up the
`database can choose to disregard the unimportant
`sections of music; right?
`
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` A Yes.
` Q Does Iwamura give any other reason for
`disregarding a portion of the music?
` A Yes. In the interest of accelerating the
`search -- now this is line 9, right -- to accelerate
`the search, you can unmark peaks. So --
` Q Why -- why does it say to unmark peaks?
` It says to avoid searching unnecessary
`portions; right?
` A Well, it says by unmarking peaks, you can
`certainly, yes, select portions that shouldn't be
`searched. And then, in addition, this, as you said,
`avoids searching unnecessary portions but also
`accelerates search speed.
` So any practitioner seeing this is going
`to say, "Well, I can choose my -- my fraction of
`peaks that I want to work with. And there's a
`tradeoff. If I made that fraction small, I
`accelerate my search, but my matching is not going
`to be as good."
` So the practitioner, if he's faced with
`musical works that are twice as long, is going to
`experiment with that parameter. You will conclude
`the number of peaks should not double. It should be
`multiplied by, say, 1.5, and you obtain, then,
`
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`similarity.
` Q Does Iwamura teach that, or is that
`something you're saying that one of ordinary skill
`in the art would know to add?
` A One of ordinary skill would absolutely
`understand that the choice of this fraction is a
`tradeoff between search speed and matching
`performance.
` Q Does Iwamura teach reducing the number of
`peaks that you check based upon an increase in the
`size of the musical work in the database?
` MR. ELACQUA: Objection.
` THE WITNESS: As I said, he says the user can
`select that -- that fraction.
`BY MR. DOVEL:
` Q The -- he says the user can select the --
`can unmark peaks; right?
` A That's right. Yes.
` Q Does he say that the user should do it
`based upon the size of the dataset that he's working
`with?
` A He does not say it because it's a
`well-understood fact in -- in that field.
` Q Would you agree that Iwamura does not
`expressly teach reducing the number of peaks that
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`are checked based upon the size of the dataset?
` A He does not explicitly say that. It's
`simply a known fact in -- in this field that if the
`length of your string increases, this is a really
`well-known technique to trade off speeds against
`matching performance.
` Q You're not answering my question.
` A Yes, I am. I said he is not saying this.
` Q Okay. Then that would be the answer. But
`then you went on and added a bunch of other stuff
`that's not responsive.
` MR. ELACQUA: Objection.
`BY MR. DOVEL:
` Q I think it's important for you to address
`my question. If you've got other things that you
`want to say, you will have plenty of time to do
`that.
` A Okay --
` Q I promise you. I need to get my questions
`answered.
` A Okay. So please restate it.
` Q Do you agree that Iwamura does not
`expressly teach reducing the number of peaks that
`are searched based upon the size of the dataset
`that's being searched?
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` MR. ELACQUA: Objection.
` THE WITNESS: I agree in this paragraph it
`does not say anything about the size of the musical
`work.
`BY MR. DOVEL:
` Q That doesn't answer my question.
` A I said I agree.
` Q Well, you said you agree that it doesn't
`teach, and then you answered a different question.
`So answer my question --
` A Well, you quoted the paragraph -- you
`quoted the paragraph and you asked if he teaches
`that. So I -- I said I agree with what you said.
`In that paragraph, it does not teach that.
` Q Sir, do you agree that Iwamura does not
`teach altering the number of peaks that are searched
`based upon the size of the dataset?
` A It does not explicitly say it. I agree.
` Q Do you agree that it's not inherent in
`Iwamura?
` A To me, it is inherent, as in that field,
`everyone understands that this is a tradeoff between
`search speed and matching performance. It is
`inherent. When you deal with a large database,
`it's -- it's inherent.
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` Q Do you know what the word "inherent" means
`in the context of patents?
` A Well, I'm not a -- an attorney. Okay? So
`I -- my understanding of inherent is that it is
`implied. So you're making some assumptions here the
`size of the musical work would increase.
` Q Let me give you a definition of inherent
`I'd like you to apply.
` A Okay.
` Q I want you to assume inherent means that
`something is unstated in a reference, but it's
`necessarily present. It's the only way it could be
`done. There's no other possibility.
` A Okay. By --
` MR. ELACQUA: Objection.
` Wait for the question.
`BY MR. DOVEL:
` Q You understand that definition?
` A Yes.
` Q Does -- is it inherent in what Iwamura
`teaches that one would reduce the -- the number of
`peaks that are searched based upon database size?
` MR. ELACQUA: Objection.
` THE WITNESS: There's no other reasonable way
`to do it. There's always a way to do it in a way
`
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`that does not reduce number of peaks. It's always
`an option. He mentions that option.
`BY MR. DOVEL:
` Q So you would agree that it's not
`necessarily the case; it's not inherent in Iwamura
`that the only way to do it would be to reduce the
`number of peaks based upon database size; correct?
` A It would be a bad way, okay, no reasonable
`person would do that.
` Q Correct. Yes or no?
` MR. ELACQUA: Objection.
` THE WITNESS: My understanding is yes, it
`would be bad engineering.
`BY MR. DOVEL:
` Q Okay. You're not responding to my
`question.
` I didn't ask you whether it was a bad way;
`I didn't ask you whether it was a way that one of --
`in your field would consider to be a way that you
`shouldn't do it. It's about inherency and
`necessary.
` A All right.
` Q Do you agree, sir, that it's not inherent
`in what Iwamura teaches to do a search in which the
`peaks are reduced based upon increasing the size of
`
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`the database?
` A I think it is necessary to obtain good
`performance with a reasonable search speed. I think
`it's necessary. That's my opinion.
` Q I didn't ask you whether it's necessary to
`obtain good speed.
` Is it the case that the only way you could
`perform the Iwamura search is by reducing the number
`of peaks that are searched based upon database size?
` A The -- say it again.
` Q Is it the case that it's necessary and
`only -- withdrawn.
` Is it -- with respect to the Iwamura peak
`search, is it necessarily the case that the only way
`it could be done was by reducing the number of peaks
`that are searched when we increase the size of the
`database?
` A So that would be the only way to obtain
`sublinearity, okay, by using this technique of
`unmarking peaks. There's a variety of techniques --
` Q I didn't ask about the only way to obtain
`sublinearity. You are now consciously avoiding my
`question. I need an answer --
` A No. Please restate. Okay?
` Q Is it the case that in Iwamura, it would
`
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`be inherent and necessarily the case that the only
`way to do the search in Iwamura is by reducing the
`number of peaks as we increase the size of the
`database?
` A No, it's not inherent.
` Q Would you agree, sir, that if it's not
`express and it's not inherent, that Iwamura then
`does not teach increasing the number of peaks based
`upon the size of the database?
` A It -- it teaches it by stating that the
`user has the option of selecting a fraction of the
`peaks which is understood to mean it depends -- the
`way you do it depends on the parameters.
` So it is taught in my view, in my opinion.
` Q Now, let's take a look -- in your --
` In your declarations, the four
`declarations, you, at the beginning of your
`Declaration, say that, "I understand that subject
`matter can be anticipated if each limitation is
`found expressly or inherently in a single prior art
`reference." You make that general comment.
` In your analysis, I did not see any place
`where you express the conclusion that a limitation
`or an element was inherent in any of the prior art
`references.
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` Do you recall any place in your
`declarations --
` A Let me -- the language -- so the part that
`you quoted from in my Declaration, which page is it?
` Q Paragraph 26.
` A Okay.
` Q Page 10.
` A Yeah.
` Okay. I've read it.
` Q Now, as I look through your Declaration, I
`notice that you identified -- you made various
`statements about the various elements that were
`taught by Iwamura, taught by Ghias and so on.
` A Yes.
` Q And then you identified portions of Ghias
`or Iwamura that you contended disclosed those
`portions?
` A Yes.
` Q I did not see any opinions where you said,
`"This element is not expressly taught; however, it
`is inherent, and here's why."
` Do you recall expressing any opinions to
`Do you recall expressing any opinions to
`the effect that a element was not expressly taught
`the effect that a element was not expressly taught
`but was instead inherent?
`but was instead inherent?
` A I don't recall making that statement, no.
`A
`I don't recall making that statement, no.
`
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` MR. DOVEL: Let's go ahead and take a break
`for the evening.
` MR. ELACQUA: Sure.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This will conclude today's
`proceedings in the deposition of Pierre Moulin. The
`total number of videotapes used today was four. And
`we're off the record at 5:39 PM.
` (The deposition was concluded at 5:39 PM)
`
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`
` DECLARATION
`
`Page 307
`
` I hereby declare that I am the deponent
`in the within matter; that I have read the foregoing
`proceedings and know the contents thereof, and I
`declare that the same is true of my knowledge except
`as to the matters which are therein stated upon my
`information or belief, and as to those matters, I
`believe it to be true.
` I declare, under the penalties of
`perjury of the state of California, that the
`foregoing is true and correct.
` Executed on the ______ day of
`____________, _____, at ________________________,
`California.
`
` _____________________________________
` PIERRE MOULIN, PhD
`
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`Page 308
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`STATE OF CALIFORNIA )
` ) ss.
`COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES )
`
` I, Rich Alossi, California Certified
`Shorthand Reporter Number 13497, do hereby certify:
` That prior to being examined, the witness
`named in the foregoing proceedings was duly sworn;
` That said proceedings were taken before me
`at the time and place therein set forth and were
`taken by me in stenographic shorthand and thereafter
`transcribed into typewritten form under my direction
`and supervision;
` That the dismantling of this transcript
`will void the Reporter's certificate;
` Before completion of the deposition, review
`of the transcript was [XX] was not [ ]
`requested. If requested, any changes made by the
`deponent and provided to the Reporter during the
`period allowed are appended hereto.
` IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I hereunto subscribe my
`name this 31st day of August, 2015.
`
` _____________________________________
` RICH ALOSSI, RPR, CCRR, CSR No. 13497
`
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` NAME OF CASE:
` DATE OF DEPOSITION:
` NAME OF WITNESS:
` Reason Codes:
` 1. To clarify the record.
` 2. To conform to the facts.
` 3. To correct transcription errors.
` Page ______ Line ______ Reason ______
` From _____________________ to _____________________
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`

`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 310
`
`GOOGLE, INC., and YOUTUBE, LLC, )
` )
` )
` Petitioner, )
` )
` vs. )
` ) Case No. IPR2015-00347
`NETWORK-1 TECHNOLOGIES, INC., )
` )
` Patent Owner. )
`_________________________________)
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF PIERRE MOULIN, PhD, VOLUME II
` Santa Monica, California
` Thursday, August 20, 2015
`
`REPORTED BY: RICH ALOSSI, RPR, CCRR, CSR NO. 13497
`Job No: 96810
`
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`

`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 311
`
`GOOGLE, INC., and YOUTUBE, LLC, )
` )
` )
` Petitioner, )
` )
` vs. )
` ) Case No. IPR2015-00347
`NETWORK-1 TECHNOLOGIES, INC., )
` )
` Patent Owner. )
`_________________________________)
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF PIERRE MOULIN, PhD,
`VOLUME II, taken on behalf of the Patent Owner, at 201 Santa
`Monica Boulevard, Sixth Floor, Santa Monica, California, on
`Thursday, August 20, 2015, from 9:05 AM to 11:14 AM, before
`RICH ALOSSI, RPR, CCRR, CSR NO. 13497.
` * * *
`
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`

`
`Page 312
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`APPEARANCES:
`
`For the Plaintiff:
` SKADDEN ARPS SLATE MEAGHER & FLOM
` BY: JAMES ELACQUA, Attorney at Law
` IAN CHEN, Attorney at Law
` 525 University Avenue
` Palo Alto, CA 94301
`
`For the Patent Owner Network-1 Technologies:
` DOVEL & LUNER
` BY: GREGORY DOVEL, Attorney at Law
` 201 Santa Monica Boulevard
` Santa Monica, CA 90401
`
`Also Present:
` SCOTT MCNAIR, Videographer
` RICH SONNENTAG, Litigation Counsel, Google, Inc.
`
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`Page 313
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` I N D E X
`WITNESS PAGE
`PIERRE MOULIN, PhD, VOLUME II
` BY MR. DOVEL 313
` BY MR. ELACQUA 376
`
` E X H I B I T S
`
` (None.)
`
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` SANTA MONICA, CALIFORNIA; THURSDAY, AUGUST 20, 2015
` 9:05 AM - 11:14 AM
` - - -
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. We are back
`on the record for Day 2 of the continuing deposition
`of Pierre Moulin. Today's date is August 20th,
`2015. The time is 9:05 AM. And the witness has
`already been sworn.
` - - -
` PIERRE MOULIN, PhD,
` having been previously duly sworn by
` the court reporter, was examined
` and testified as follows:
` - - -
` EXAMINATION
` MR. DOVEL: Can I have the exhibits. Thanks.
` THE WITNESS: Thank you.
` MR. DOVEL: I've placed in front of the
`witness Exhibit 1012, the Iwamura prior art
`reference.
`BY MR. DOVEL:
` Q Why don't you turn to Column 9.
` At lines 44 to 45, does Iwamura teach that
`a peak that is -- is in an unimportant section can
`be skipped?
`
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` A Yes.
` Q If you'll look a little further down, does
`Iwamura teach that certain portions of the song are
`well recognized and remembered by the user?
` A Which lines would that be?
` Q 46 -- or 47 and 48.
` A These portions, yes, I see that.
` Q Does Iwamura then teach right after that
`that the user identifies such important portions as
`a keyword or key melody.
` Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q And by "keyword or key melody," that's
`going to be the melody that we're using as our -- as
`our query in the Iwamura search?
` A It's certainly part of the query.
` Q Well, the query is going to be based upon
`the -- what's entered by the user; is that right?
` A Yes.
` Q And so when you say "part," is there some
`other part of the query that's not entered by the
`user?
` A I'm just reading this again.
` It appears that that is what will be input
`by the user, yes.
`
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` Q When you say "that," what do you mean?
` A When you asked me if those -- keywords is
`what will be input by the user; correct? And I
`agree.
` Q And what the -- withdrawn.
` Does Iwamura teach here that the user
`identifies the important parts as the keyword or key
`melody that is used as the query?
` A Yes.
` Q Is it the case that if the keyword or key
`melody consists of important parts, and unimportant
`parts are omitted from the reference database, that
`the Iwamura search would not exclude a -- a
`potential reference as a match based upon a failure
`to search the unimportant parts?
` A Well, this sentence says, "The user" -- so
`we're talking about the query here. "The user
`identifies important portions." That sentence says
`nothing about the database itself.
` Q I understand that.
` A Okay.
` Q I want you to assume that we've got a
`database where we're going to use this method that's
`identified in Column 9, line 44, that a peak that is
`in an unimportant section can be skipped.
`
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` A Okay.
` Q All right. So let's assume we've got our
`Q
`All right. So let's assume we've got our
`database up. We've identified the unimportant
`database up. We've identified the unimportant
`sections, and we're not going to assess those when
`sections, and we're not going to assess those when
`we're doing our Iwamura search.
`we're doing our Iwamura search.
` Does that make sense?
`Does that make sense?
`A
`Yes.
` A Yes.
`Q
`In that case, failing to test a melody
` Q In that case, failing to test a melody
`against an unimportant part will not result in us
`against an unimportant part will not result in us
`ignoring a match. Would you agree?
`ignoring a match. Would you agree?
` A That is correct, assuming it's truly an
`A
`That is correct, assuming it's truly an
`unimportant part, yes.
`unimportant part, yes.
` Q Would you agree -- withdrawn.
`Q
`Would you agree -- withdrawn.
` Is it the case that if we do the Iwamura
`Is it the case that if we do the Iwamura
`search using the peaks as our basis, and we set up
`search using the peaks as our basis, and we set up
`our database such that the unimportant peaks are
`our database such that the unimportant peaks are
`skipped, that we're still going to be identifying
`skipped, that we're still going to be identifying
`the closest match when we produce our results?
`the closest match when we produce our results?
` A That would be assuming that no peaks have
`A
`That would be assuming that no peaks have
`been dropped and everything we discussed yesterday.
`been dropped and everything we discussed yesterday.
`Dropping an unimportant part is not going to affect
`Dropping an unimportant part is not going to affect
`the ability to find the best match.
`the ability to find the best match.
` Q Why is that?
` A Well, because as we assume these are
`unimportant portions, and so we do not need to
`
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`consider them in order to find the best match.
` Q Let's take a look just above that.
` There's another feature of Iwamura that
`says, in one variation, melodies have repeated
`patterns, and we can avoid having to search a
`repeated pattern more than once.
` Do you see that?
` A This would be line 36, 37?
` Q Yes.
` A Yes.
` Q If we implement that feature of Iwamura,
`Q
`If we implement that feature of Iwamura,
`is it the case that by skipping a repeated pattern,
`is it the case that by skipping a repeated pattern,
`it's not going to stop us from producing the best
`it's not going to stop us from producing the best
`match?
`match?
` A Again, if truly -- assuming it's truly a
`A
`Again, if truly -- assuming it's truly