Gregory F. Welch, Ph.D.
`12/17/2015
`Page 1
` 1 UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` 2 BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` 3 SONY COMPUTER ENTERTAINMENT AMERICA LLC
` Petitioner
` 4
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` v.
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` APLIX IP HOLDINGS CORPORATION
` 6 Patent Owner
` 7 Case No. IPR2015-00396
` Patent No. 7,218,313
` 8
` Case No. IPR2015-00533
` 9 Patent No. 7,218,313
`10 Case No. IPR2015-00476
` Patent No. 7,218,313
`11
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`Page: 1
`Page 3
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` 1 I N D E X
` 2 TESTIMONY OF GREGORY WELCH
` 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GILBERTSON ......... 4
` 4 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. KEAN ............ 27
` 5 CERTIFICATE OF OATH ............................... 30
` 6 REPORTER'S DEPOSITION CERTIFICATE ................. 31
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` E X H I B I T S
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`13 S T I P U L A T I O N S
`14 It is hereby stipulated and agreed by and
`between counsel present for the respective parties, and
`15 the deponent, that the reading and signing of the
`deposition are hereby RESERVED.
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`DEPOSITION OF: GREGORY WELCH
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`DATE: December 17, 2015
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`REPORTED BY: Mae Fisher, RMR, CRR
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`TIME: COMMENCED: 11:26 a.m.
`15 CONCLUDED: 12:38 p.m.
`16 TAKEN BY: Patent Owner
`17 PLACE: Hyatt Regency Orlando International
` Airport
`18 9300 Jeff Fuqua Blvd
` Orlando, Florida 32827
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` 1 A P P E A R A N C E S:
` 2 ABRAN J. KEAN, ESQUIRE
`Of: Erise IP, P.A.
` 3 5600 Greenwood Plaza Boulevard
` Suite 200
` 4 Greenwood Village, CO 80111
` (720) 689-5440
` 5 Abran.kean@eriseIP.com
` 6 Counsel for the PETITIONER
` 7 ROBERT J. GILBERTSON, ESQUIRE
`Of: Greene Espel, PLLP
` 8 222 South Ninth Street
` Suite 2200
` 9 Minneapolis, MN 55402
` (612) 373-0830
`10 Bgilbertson@greenespel.com
`11 Counsel for the PATENT OWNER
`12 ALSO PRESENT:
`13 CALLIE PENDERGRASS
`Senior Technical Advisor
`14 Erise, IP, P.A.
`6201 College Boulevard
`15 Suite 300
`Overland Park, KS 66211
`16 (913) 777-5602
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` 1 P R O C E E D I N G S
` 2 THE COURT REPORTER: Do you solemnly swear or
` 3 affirm that the testimony you are about to give in
` 4 this cause will be the truth, the whole truth, and
` 5 nothing but the truth?
` 6 THE WITNESS: I do.
` 7 GREGORY WELCH,
` 8 a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was
` 9 examined, and testified as follows:
`10 CROSS-EXAMINATION
`11 BY MR. GILBERTSON:
`12 Q. Dr. Welch, we're here for a deposition in
`13 connection with supplemental declarations that you have
`14 provided in IPR2015-00396, IPR2015-00476, and
`15 IPR2015-00533. Is that your understanding?
`16 A. That's correct, yes.
`17 Q. And I know I asked you this just a little earlier
`18 in connection with the other deposition, but are you
`19 able to give accurate testimony today?
`20 A. I am, yes, thank you.
`21 Q. Do you have those three supplemental declarations
`22 in front of you?
`23 A. I do.
`24 Q. Let's just note for the record what they are. In
`25 the 00396 matter, Exhibit 1042 is your supplemental
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`Gregory F. Welch, Ph.D.
`12/17/2015
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` 1 declaration?
` 2 A. That's correct.
` 3 Q. And the last page has your signature?
` 4 A. Yes.
` 5 Q. And in the 00476 matter, Exhibit 1042, likewise,
` 6 is your supplemental declaration in that matter?
` 7 A. Yes.
` 8 Q. And the last page has your signature?
` 9 A. Yes.
`10 Q. And also, it's Exhibit 1042 in the 00533 matter.
`11 That's your supplemental declaration?
`12 A. Yes.
`13 Q. And the last page of it has your signature?
`14 A. Yes.
`15 Q. Are there any aspects of those supplemental
`16 declarations that you feel a need to clarify?
`17 A. The only thing for the record, which we discussed
`18 off the record, was the exhibit number clarification,
`19 which should be really supplanted by the new exhibit
`20 that we entered in the previous proceedings. I'm not
`21 quite sure how to characterize that, but maybe you can
`22 do that better than I did.
`23 Q. Well, the two sides have a point of difference on
`24 that in that I object to the new exhibit, so I would not
`25 say that -- I would not agree that it would be
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`Page 6
` 1 supplanted. But I think we could note here for the
` 2 record that the testimony you gave in your deposition
` 3 earlier today in the '245 and '692 matters about the Lim
` 4 exhibit applied as well to the 00533 matter; and in that
` 5 matter, the exhibit we were talking about is
` 6 Exhibit 2036. Am I right about that, that the Lim
` 7 exhibit we were talking about in terms of the 00533
` 8 matter was Exhibit 2036?
` 9 A. Correct. And the corresponding Mr. Lim
`10 declaration, I believe, is Exhibit 2009. And the two
`11 paragraphs where he cites the article are, I believe,
`12 paragraphs 48 and 54, and it's the article that he cites
`13 there that I'm referring to and included as a new
`14 exhibit, or attempted to include as a new exhibit.
`15 Q. And given that the testimony that you gave
`16 earlier this morning in the '245, '692 matter is
`17 available to the judges to be used in the 00533 matter
`18 as well, is there anything else about that issue that
`19 you feel you would like to clarify?
`20 A. No. I hope I made it clear earlier, and it would
`21 be the same for the 00533.
`22 Q. Okay. If you could turn with me, please, to your
`23 00533 supplemental declaration paragraph 13.
`24 A. Okay.
`25 Q. And, also, turn in your 00396 supplemental
`
` 1 declaration to paragraph 14, please.
` 2 A. Okay.
` 3 Q. Would you agree that those two paragraphs are
` 4 substantively the same?
` 5 A. Again, both from memory and from looking at it
` 6 here, I believe that is correct. I believe they are
` 7 substantively the same.
` 8 Q. And in general, those paragraphs refer to US
` 9 Patent 7088342, to Rekimoto, R-E-K-I-M-O-T-O, and
`10 others; is that right?
`11 A. That's correct.
`12 Q. And I'll just -- I'll note that in the 00396
`13 matter, Rekimoto was marked by your client Sony as
`14 Exhibit 1004, and the exhibit -- excuse me, in the 00533
`15 matter, it was marked as Exhibit 1056. In the 00533
`16 matter, you refer to Exhibit 1056 at page -- in
`17 paragraph 1 of your supplemental declarations; is that
`18 right?
`19 A. Yes. I believe that's correct, yes.
`20 Q. And are you aware that this Rekimoto reference
`21 was submitted by Sony in its 00396 petition as one of
`22 ten pieces of prior art over which Sony argued that the
`23 313 patent should be held invalid?
`24 A. I don't recall the details, but I do recall or
`25 believe that it was -- as I stated here, was already
`Page 8
` 1 cited in other proceedings related to this, but I don't
` 2 remember the details.
` 3 Q. And are you aware that in the 00396 matter, the
` 4 board opted to go forward with the proceeding relating
` 5 to seven of the ten pieces of prior art but not
` 6 including Rekimoto?
` 7 A. That sounds right, yes. I mean, I don't remember
` 8 the specific orders, but that sounds right.
` 9 Q. And are you likewise aware that the Rekimoto
`10 reference was also submitted by Sony in its 00476
`11 petition as one of the pieces of prior art over which
`12 Sony argued that the '313 patent should be held invalid?
`13 A. That is correct. Again, for all of these, I
`14 think, just to make clear, I'm not relying on these in
`15 any way other than just as background art that I offer
`16 in response to, in this particular case, some opinions
`17 offered by Dr. MacLean. So I don't mean to imply that
`18 there's anything beyond that.
`19 Q. And you're likewise aware that the board opted in
`20 the 00476 proceeding to go forward on some of the pieces
`21 of prior art that Sony had offered but not Rekimoto?
`22 A. Again, I don't remember the details of the order,
`23 but that sounds -- that sounds right, just sitting here
`24 right now from memory.
`25 Q. And are you likewise aware that the Rekimoto
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`Gregory F. Welch, Ph.D.
`12/17/2015
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` 1 reference was not submitted by Sony in connection with
` 2 its 00533 petition?
` 3 A. I can't tell you one way or the other. I don't
` 4 know.
` 5 Q. Is it your opinion that the Rekimoto reference
` 6 was so well known that any person of ordinary skill in
` 7 the art of -- as of 2003, would have known about it?
` 8 MR. KEAN: Object to the form.
` 9 THE WITNESS: Hard for me to say, but I will
`10 say that Jun Rekimoto has been around for a long time,
`11 and his papers and all of his work, I think, is very
`12 well known. He's a pretty famous researcher in this
`13 area, so I think people would generally be familiar
`14 with his name, probably, and his work.
`15 BY MR. GILBERTSON:
`16 Q. Could you turn to -- in the 00396 supplemental
`17 declaration, to paragraph 6, please.
`18 A. Okay.
`19 Q. You've got that in front of you?
`20 A. I do.
`21 Q. And this paragraph refers in part, as do some
`22 other paragraphs here, to multitouch capability; is that
`23 right?
`24 A. In this paragraph in particular, it's multitouch
`25 gestures, but the phrase multitouch or term multitouch
`Page 10
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` 1 is there and in other places, yes.
` 2 Q. And paragraph 6 and some of the other paragraphs
` 3 of your 00396 supplemental declaration discuss that
` 4 issue in the context of the Ishihara reference; is that
` 5 right?
` 6 A. Certainly, that appears to be the case in
` 7 paragraph 6. From memory, I don't have the rest of my
` 8 declaration memorized, so it would be whatever it is I
` 9 said, but I'm sorry, I don't remember beyond that.
`10 Q. Sure. That's fine. Let me hand you a copy of
`11 the Ishihara reference Exhibit 1007 in the 00396 matter.
`12 A. Okay. I have it. Thank you.
`13 Q. Is it your opinion that there is any explicit
`14 teaching of multitouch capability in Ishihara?
`15 A. I don't recall, sitting here right now,
`16 whether -- how or where it is disclosed, and it being
`17 the ability to sense multiple touches simultaneously,
`18 but I believe it is. I don't recall whether I opined
`19 about that in this document or not, and I don't recall
`20 where or how it's described in Ishihara, but I believe
`21 it is. It, again, being the ability to sense multiple
`22 touches simultaneously on the same surface.
`23 Q. Well, take your time, if you want to look at
`24 Ishihara; but if you think that there's someplace in
`25 Ishihara that explicitly teaches multitouch capability,
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`Page: 3
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` 1 I'd like you to point to that to me, please.
` 2 MR. KEAN: Objection. Scope.
` 3 BY MR. GILBERTSON:
` 4 Q. Well, picking up on that objection, let me ask
` 5 you this preliminary question, Dr. Welch: Have you
` 6 offered testimony in connection with the 00396 matter
` 7 that Ishihara teaches multitouch capability explicitly?
` 8 A. I don't recall whether I did or not. I don't see
` 9 it here and I don't recall it here in this declaration.
`10 I could well have offered that opinion in my original
`11 opening declaration, but I don't remember offhand here.
`12 I really focused on these declarations in preparing for
`13 today.
`14 Q. By these declarations, you mean the supplemental
`15 declarations?
`16 A. That's correct. Thank you. Yes.
`17 Q. Makes sense. Well, okay, then, let's go back to
`18 the question I asked, and feel free to take what time
`19 you need with the Ishihara reference that's in front of
`20 you. But do you believe that there's any explicit
`21 teaching in Ishihara of multitouch capability?
`22 MR. KEAN: Same objection.
`23 THE WITNESS: My memory of this, of Ishihara,
`24 is that it does teach that; but just glancing through
`25 here, I can't remember -- I believe I offered an
`Page 12
` 1 opinion about that, but I'm really not sure, or I
` 2 might have offered an opinion about that in my opening
` 3 declaration on the '313. So any of the 3 -- '313 IPR
` 4 matters, but I really don't recall; and just glancing
` 5 through it right here, I don't see it. So I wouldn't
` 6 want to speculate at this point about whether it does
` 7 or does not because I really don't remember.
` 8 BY MR. GILBERTSON:
` 9 Q. As of now, having heard my question and looked at
`10 Ishihara, there's nothing you can point to brief in
`11 Ishihara, I take it, that explicitly teaches multitouch
`12 capability; is that right?
`13 A. Sitting here right now, just having really just
`14 glanced through it, I mean, in the 90 seconds or so I
`15 took to just look through it, I didn't find the thing
`16 that I thought I was looking for, but I wouldn't call my
`17 reading through. Again, I think I opined about that, or
`18 if it does, I probably opined about it or would have
`19 opined about it in my opening declaration for any of the
`20 IPRs related to the '313 patent.
`21 Q. Well, I don't want you to feel constrained to
`22 90 seconds, so go ahead and take whatever time you need
`23 to look through Ishihara to answer my question about
`24 whether you can point to any explicit teaching in
`25 Ishihara of multitouch capability.
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`Gregory F. Welch, Ph.D.
`12/17/2015
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` 1 A. I will look here for a moment, but I don't want
` 2 to limit any of my opinions at this moment about
` 3 explicit or not explicit in terms of the teachings. I
` 4 just don't recall, again, what I said about Ishihara in
` 5 my opening declaration, whether I said it may teach it
` 6 in one way, shape, or form, whether it's explicit or
` 7 not. But I can certainly take some time here and try
` 8 and reread the entire patent and see if I spot anything
` 9 at this moment, sitting here.
`10 Q. So just for clarity, let me say, I certainly
`11 understand your point that you may have said things in
`12 your initial declarations that you don't remember off
`13 the top of your head right now; that makes perfect
`14 sense. My question for you now is, can you point to
`15 anything in Ishihara itself explicitly teaching
`16 multitouch capability or functionality? And take
`17 whatever time you need to answer that.
`18 A. Sure. And I will look, but can you tell me, is
`19 there something in my declaration now that leads you to
`20 ask that question so that I can look and see whether I
`21 cited anything in Ishihara at that point, because I
`22 don't recall that?
`23 Q. Oh, that's actually the whole point. I'm glad
`24 you asked that. I didn't see anything about that in
`25 your testimony. That's why I'm following up now, just
`Page 14
` 1 to ask whether there's anything that you can point to in
` 2 the reference that explicitly teaches multitouch
` 3 capability or functionality.
` 4 A. Okay. That makes sense, because just looking at
` 5 it, and, of course, from memory and my general sense of
` 6 my supplemental declarations is that they're solely
` 7 about responding to things that Dr. MacLean or Mr. Lim
` 8 said, not offering opinions about the prior art itself,
` 9 which I would have already done. But I will look there
`10 for a few minutes and see if I can spot anything.
`11 Q. Thank you.
`12 A. (Examining documents.)
`13 So in looking at Ishihara a little more
`14 carefully, I still haven't found any -- any words that
`15 explicitly say that. That doesn't mean that they're not
`16 there. I just didn't find them. I'm not very good at
`17 doing a linear visual search through documents, looking
`18 for words. I usually use a find function in an editor
`19 of some sort to help me find those topics, look for key
`20 words. I can't do that here, so just reading it top to
`21 bottom as carefully as I can, which is not perfect,
`22 nothing -- those explicit words don't come to mind, but
`23 the things that --
`24 Q. Excuse me. The explicit words, teaching
`25 multitouch capability? That's what you're referring to?
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` 1 A. Explicit words, yes, explicit words related to
` 2 that.
` 3 Q. Okay.
` 4 A. Again, the words -- as I've said before, the
` 5 words of the patent are there for everyone to look at;
` 6 but the teachings, of course, are, in my mind, what
` 7 really matters, what the patent itself teaches or allows
` 8 to a person of ordinary skill who's looking at it. So,
` 9 for example, paragraphs 40 and 51 in the Exhibit 1007,
`10 the Ishihara exhibit, both describe very basic
`11 resistive, I believe, touch sensing technology that is
`12 very -- very common, very well known at that time, and
`13 it's very -- inherently supports multiple touches. And
`14 certainly, Ishihara doesn't say anything about it not
`15 supporting multiple touches. And as I think I -- or as
`16 I did offer opinions through paragraphs 6 through 10, at
`17 least in my declaration, all of that would have been
`18 well known to a person of ordinary skill, including, as
`19 I said, to someone like me, as an undergraduate at
`20 Purdue, a junior, who, you know, knew that that same
`21 technology could detect multiple touches.
`22 So I don't know if the words exactly are in here.
`23 I don't remember. I believe I discussed this in my
`24 original declaration, but the technical descriptions at
`25 40 and 51 in Ishihara, to me, clearly describe
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`Page 16
` 1 technology that would support multiple touches.
` 2 Q. Do you believe that in 2003, all touch screens
` 3 supported multitouch functionality?
` 4 A. Again, it depends what we mean, to be very
` 5 careful by multitouch. And so when I say multitouch, I
` 6 mean literally detecting simultaneously multiple
` 7 touches. And I would say that I'd be very surprised if
` 8 there was a technology that did not support the
` 9 detection of multiple touches. It's possible.
`10 The most common ones that I'm aware of, including
`11 the one that I developed, which actually looks a lot
`12 like some other ones I've seen looking at in this case,
`13 would naturally support detecting of multiple touches.
`14 Whether an application chooses to make use of those
`15 multiples touches or not is a different issue. The
`16 question in my mind is whether the underlying technology
`17 supports that. And the ones that I'm aware of
`18 universally all do, but I wouldn't say that it's a
`19 certainty that all would. I really couldn't say.
`20 Q. Let me ask you to turn, please, to paragraph 10
`21 of your 00396 supplemental declaration.
`22 A. Okay. I'm there.
`23 Q. In that paragraph, one of the things you refer to
`24 is an Exhibit 1028, a patent issue to Itaya, I-T-A-Y-A,
`25 et al.; is that right?
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` 1 A. That's correct, yes.
` 2 Q. Let me show you that Exhibit 1028. Do you have
` 3 that in front of you?
` 4 A. Yes, I do. Thank you.
` 5 Q. Do you find, or do you believe that Itaya,
` 6 Exhibit 1028, contains any explicit disclosure
` 7 implementing multitouch on the scale of a hand-held
` 8 device?
` 9 A. So, again, just looking briefly at this,
`10 because, of course, I don't have this memorized, but my
`11 memory of it, at least, which comports with a very quick
`12 but somewhat thorough review of the first page, the
`13 abstract and a little bit of the introduction, is that
`14 it's about -- the general teachings are about the
`15 mechanism for developing resistance film method of
`16 detecting touch of multiple fingers simultaneously. Not
`17 obvious to me anywhere that it is indicating anything
`18 that is a requirement about size or scale or anything
`19 else, and I believe everything taught in here could be
`20 realized at a variety of scales and probably was.
`21 So I think the general teachings are agnostic to
`22 scale, if that's what you're getting at. At least I
`23 don't see anything in there right now looking at it, and
`24 I don't recall anything that would be otherwise specific
`25 to size or scale.
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`Page 18
` 1 Q. Let me ask you to turn in your 00396 supplemental
` 2 declaration to paragraph 19.
` 3 A. Okay.
` 4 Q. In that paragraph, you cite Exhibit 1051; is that
` 5 right?
` 6 A. That's correct, yes.
` 7 Q. In front of you, could you -- you've got some
` 8 exhibits in front of you as well. Could you turn to
` 9 Exhibit 1051, toward the back of that set.
`10 A. I see 50, but I don't see 51.
`11 Q. Can I have it back?
`12 A. Yes. There it is.
`13 Q. I might have given you the wrong thing.
`14 A. That's okay.
`15 Q. Sorry. I thought it was at the back of the one I
`16 had given you. It's actually at the front of the next
`17 one.
`18 A. That's okay. Okay. I have it. Exhibit 1051.
`19 Q. And what, generally, is Exhibit 1051?
`20 A. It is an AMD, which is a company advanced
`21 microdevices specification sheet for a single-chip
`22 low-power PC/AT compatible microcontroller.
`23 Q. Could you turn to the second page of
`24 Exhibit 1051, please, and read out loud into the record
`25 the -- well, let me back up. On the second page, do you
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` 1 see a section called general description?
` 2 A. I do.
` 3 Q. If you could please go to the third paragraph
` 4 and, for the benefit of the record, read the first
` 5 sentence of that paragraph out loud.
` 6 A. The first sentence of the third paragraph of the
` 7 general description section reads, Leveraging the
` 8 benefits of the x86 desktop computing environment, the
` 9 ElanSC400 and the ElanSC410 microcontrollers integrate
`10 all of the common logic and I/O functionality associated
`11 with a PC/AT computing system into a single device,
`12 eliminating the need for multiple peripheral chips.
`13 Q. Does that description comport with your
`14 understanding of this chip that you're discussing in
`15 paragraph 19 of your 00396 supplemental declaration?
`16 A. I'm not sure. When you say this chip, in 19, I'm
`17 referring to the Intel/AMD x86 processor that I believe
`18 Mr. Lim referred to. I don't recall and I don't have a
`19 cite here because I'm just reacting to his opinions.
`20 And, you know, as I state there, AMD offered a family of
`21 embedded x86 processors. So it's not just one; it is a
`22 complete line or family of processors, and this is just
`23 one example from that.
`24 Q. Fair enough. And my use of the singular of the
`25 term is probably too limited.
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`Page 20
` 1 In the sentence that you just read from, the
` 2 third paragraph of page 2 of Exhibit 1051, is there
` 3 anything in there that you -- strikes you as inaccurate?
` 4 A. I couldn't tell you whether it's inaccurate or
` 5 accurate. I don't know the details at the level of the
` 6 design, architecture, everything of the chip and the
` 7 history to comment on that. I don't have any reason to
` 8 disbelieve anything that is printed here, but it would
` 9 not be the first time, if there was a mistake somewhere,
`10 but I couldn't tell you.
`11 Q. Let me ask you to turn, please, to exhibit -- or,
`12 excuse me, your 00396 supplemental declaration,
`13 paragraph 21.
`14 A. Okay. I'm there.
`15 Q. And in that paragraph, you refer to a patent
`16 issued to Aebli, A-E-B-L-I, et al., that's been marked
`17 as Exhibit 1024; is that right?
`18 A. That's correct.
`19 Q. I have one copy of Exhibit 1024. Let me hand
`20 that to you, Dr. Welch. Is this one of the documents
`21 that you reviewed in connection with preparing your
`22 supplemental declaration in the 00396 matter?
`23 A. Yes. I believe so, yes.
`24 Q. Do you believe that the Aebli reference shows an
`25 input controller inside a mobile phone?
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`Gregory F. Welch, Ph.D.
`12/17/2015
`Page 21
` 1 A. Without going back and really studying this, I
` 2 couldn't tell you definitively. But I do notice, which
` 3 comports with my memory, that it is talking about, in
` 4 the abstract, for example, a hand-held mobile client
` 5 system, and then there's discussion throughout in
` 6 different places that I recall; and I see, for example,
` 7 in column 3, about cellular telephone networks. But
` 8 beyond that, right now, sitting here right now, I
` 9 couldn't tell you. I'd have to go back and perhaps look
`10 at my original declaration, see what I wrote about that.
`11 I really -- I don't remember. I think the point here
`12 was just about hand-held device, using an input
`13 controller, as I state here in the declaration at
`14 paragraph 21.
`15 Q. Do you believe that the Aebli reference was so
`16 well known in 2003 that any person of ordinary skill in
`17 the art would have known about it?
`18 MR. KEAN: Object to the form.
`19 THE WITNESS: I couldn't say whether someone
`20 would have known about it or not. It's not my
`21 understanding that that's a requirement for
`22 obviousness combinations in general. I'm not a
`23 lawyer, but in general, I couldn't tell you. It
`24 depends probably on the area they're working; they
`25 would be more familiar with things in the area where
`Page 22
` 1 they're working than they would in general, but it
` 2 would be really hard to say.
` 3 BY MR. GILBERTSON:
` 4 Q. Are you suggesting that Aebli is part of an
` 5 obviousness combination in this case?
` 6 MR. KEAN: Object to the form.
` 7 THE WITNESS: No. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to
` 8 give that impression. No. Aebli is just something,
` 9 you know, as an example of something that was out
`10 there that illustrates, is a concrete illustration of
`11 what people were doing at that time, what they knew
`12 about, what they were doing, what they were thinking
`13 about in their own inventions. So it's just yet
`14 another example, along with all of the other examples
`15 I cite, in that section of the similar use of IO
`16 controllers in many different contexts.
`17 BY MR. GILBERTSON:
`18 Q. But you can't say that a person of ordinary skill
`19 would have known about the Aebli reference?
`20 MR. KEAN: Same objection.
`21 BY MR. GILBERTSON:
`22 Q. In 2003?
`23 A. I couldn't say about any particular reference
`24 that somebody might or might not have known about it.
`25 As I said earlier, people knew Jun Rekimoto; I think
`
`Page: 6
`Page 23
` 1 people would know of Jun Rekimoto. Somebody who was
` 2 working in an area where -- who was a person of ordinary
` 3 skill who was focusing in on an area where something
` 4 where this was relevant might well be aware of it and
` 5 certainly be aware of the -- I think the general
` 6 concepts with respect to the input controller to handle
` 7 input elements.
` 8 Q. Were you finished with your answer?
` 9 A. Yes, thank you.
`10 Q. Could you turn, please, in your 00396
`11 supplemental declaration to paragraph 23.
`12 A. Okay.
`13 Q. And this addresses some points relating to
`14 Willner; is that right?
`15 A. That's correct.
`16 Q. Let me hand you a copy of Willner so that you
`17 have it at hand. Would you agree that one of the things
`18 Willner's reference -- or the Willner reference tries to
`19 accomplish is reducing or minimizing the need to
`20 simultaneously depress keys?
`21 MR. KEAN: Object to the form.
`22 THE WITNESS: I would not agree to that. I
`23 really couldn't tell you one way or the other. I
`24 don't remember. In fact, my memory of it would be the
`25 opposite, and I don't -- I can't point you to anything
`Page 24
` 1 specifically, but my memory would be that it at least
` 2 allowed for multiple key combinations. It would be
` 3 hard for me to imagine somebody teaching away from
` 4 that or excluding that. But certainly my memory
` 5 doesn't comport with that, but I couldn't tell you for
` 6 sure; just I'm speculating based on my memory only
` 7 about what Willner teaches or doesn't teach in that
` 8 respect.
` 9 BY MR. GILBERTSON:
`10 Q. Could you look, please, in Willner at column 2,
`11 and at the end of the first full paragraph in column 2,
`12 the paragraph begins, During the past decade. Do you
`13 see that?
`14 A. I do.
`15 Q. If you could go to the last sentence of that
`16 paragraph that starts with, The likelihood. For the
`17 record, could you read that out loud into the record,
`18 that sentence?
`19 A. Sure. The last sentence, which, again, is what
`20 it says, The likelihood of the instant invention being
`21 adopted by a large segment of the keyboard-using public
`22 is further enhanced by the fact that the instant
`23 invention requires a minimal number of simultaneous
`24 depression of keys.
`25 Q. Thank you. And could you turn, please, to column
`
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`
`Gregory F. Welch, Ph.D.
`12/17/2015
`Page 25
` 1 12 of Willner. The sentence I'm interested in is in the
` 2 first full paragraph, and it begins around line 23, the
` 3 words, by utilization. Do you see that?
` 4 A. I do.
` 5 Q. And could you read that sentence, please, into
` 6 the record, out loud.
` 7 A. That sentence says, By utilization of directional
` 8 switch pads commonly utilized in game controllers for
` 9 input of alphanumeric characters in the keyboard mode
`10 and utilization of a plurality of side surface control
`11 switches, a majority of alphabetic characters of an
`12 alphabet can be generated without resorting to chording
`13 arrangements wherein multiple switches must be utilized
`14 in combination.
`15 So that, just to be clear for the record, is
`16 referring to --
`17 Q. Just so that the record is clear, the quote ended
`18 at the word, combination, right?
`19 A. I'm sorry. Yes. That is correct. Combination,
`20 period, and that's the end of the quote.
`21 Q. And you had some other comment you wanted to
`22 provide?
`23 A. Right. So Greg, on the record, just saying that
`24 this is referring to chording and generating alphabetic
`25 characters, which is a very specific mechanism for
`Page 26
` 1 generating alphabetic characters. So it's not -- and
` 2 it's not that common, but -- so it's sort of saying that
` 3 you don't have to do chording, which is a very special
` 4 talent that very few people that I know can do that, do
` 5 that. So it's saying that you don't have to resort to
` 6 that.
` 7 And I would note also that it says, a majority of
` 8 alphabetic characters can be generated without
` 9 resorting. Doesn't say all of them; it says a majority.
`10 And further, just to be clear, I'm reading those and I
`11 can certainly see what they say, but I don't recall what
`12 the overall spirit of the patent is and whether a person
`13 of ordinary skill reading it would take away the
`14 impression that that was excluded somehow, that multiple
`15 modifier keys or anything else. In fact, I'm quite
`16 certain those are discussed somewhere. Couldn't put my
`17 finger on it, so to speak, pardon the pun, at the
`18 moment.
`19 Q. A chording arrangement involves simultaneous
`20 depression of multiple keys; is that right?
`21 A. Typically a chording technique or chording
`22 arrangement is different from saying modifier keys, like
`23 a shift, control or alt, that are simply causing the
`24 function map to a particular key to be changed sort of
`25 momentarily. Chording really refers to -- you could
`
`Page: 7
`Page 27
` 1 think of almost like a piano keyboard. It refers to
` 2 basically representing the entire keyboard, for example,
` 3 with a very -- a relatively small set of keys, maybe
` 4 five, that you can put your fingers on, and never have
` 5 to lift your fingers off those five keys. And then you
` 6 have the -- two to the five, say, combinations of
` 7 characters, two to the power of five combinations of
` 8 characters -- or it's less than that, but -- that you
` 9 can generate by inputting combinations of those keys.
`10 And that is a well-known method; I think it's mentioned
`11 in the 00533 patent and introduction. But as I said, a
`12 very specialized technique used by some people in some
`13 circumstances, not very common.
`14