·1· · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`Page 1
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · ·I N D E X
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`Page 3
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`·2· · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·2· DEPOSITION OF:· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
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`·3
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`·3· HENRY HOUH, Ph.D.
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`·4· · ·Case IPR2014-01366; U.S. Patent No. 6,108,704
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`·4· EXAMINATION BY MR. NEWMAN· · · · · · · · · · · 6
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`·5· · ·Case IPR2014-01367; U.S. Patent No. 6,009,469
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`·5· EXAMINATION BY MR. ERICKSON· · · · · · · · · 284
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`·6· · ·Case IPR2014-01368; U.S. Patent No. 6,131,121
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`·6· _________________________________________________X
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`·7
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · E X H I B I T S
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`·8· Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.,
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`·8· NO.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
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`·9· Samsung Electronics America, Inc.
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`·9· Exhibit 1004· ·Declaration of Henry Houh in· · 6
`
`10· & Samsung Telecommunications
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`10· · · · · · · · ·the '704 IPR
`
`11· America, LLC,
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`12· · · · · ·Petitioners,
`
`13· · · ·v.
`
`11· Exhibit 1012· ·Document titled "Microsoft· · ·22
`
`12· · · · · · · · ·Windows NT Server"
`
`13· Exhibit 1010· ·Prior Markman Ruling· · · · · ·33
`
`14· Straight Path IP Group, Inc.,
`
`14· Exhibit 1014· ·NetBIOS Reference· · · · · · · 41
`
`15· · · · · ·Patent Owner.
`
`15· Exhibit 2017· ·Document titled Modifying· · ·141
`
`16· - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x
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`16· · · · · · · · ·WINS server defaults
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`17· · · · · · · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF
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`17· Exhibit 2013· ·'704 patent· · · · · · · · · ·187
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`18· · · · · · · · · ·HENRY HOUH, PH.D.
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`18· Exhibit 2011· ·'121 patent· · · · · · · · · ·187
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`19· · · · · Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 9:00 a.m.
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`19· Exhibit 1001· ·'469 patent· · · · · · · · · ·187
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`20· · · · · · · · · · ·DLA PIPER LLP
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`20· Exhibit 2016· ·Document titled "Patent Rule· 191
`
`21· · · · · · · 33 Arch Street, 26th Floor
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`21· · · · · · · · ·4-3 Joint Claim Construction
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`22· · · · · · · Boston, Massachusetts 02110
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`22· · · · · · · · ·and Prehearing Statement"
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`23
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`23
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`24· Reporter:· Lori-Ann London, RPR
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`24· *Original exhibits attached to original transcript
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`Page 2
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`·1· · · · · · · · APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL
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`·2· On Behalf of Samsung
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`·3· · · By:· Brian K. Erickson, Esquire
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`·4· · · DLA PIPER LLP
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`·5· · · 401 Congress Avenue, Suite 2500
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`·6· · · Austin, Texas 78701-3799
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`·7· · · 512.457.7059· brian.erickson@dlapiper.com
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`·8
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`·9· On Behalf of Straight Path:
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`10· · · By:· Michael C. Newman, Esquire
`
`11· · · Nicholas W. Armington, Esquire
`
`12· · · MINTZ LEVIN COHN FERRIS GLOVSKY AND POPEO PC
`
`13· · · One Financial Center
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`14· · · Boston, Massachusetts 02111
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`15· · · 617.348.1626
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`16· · · mcnewman@mintz.com· nwarmington@mintz.com
`
`17
`
`18· On Behalf of Cisco Systems, Inc. and Avaya, Inc.:
`
`19· · · By:· Jason Liss, Esquire
`
`20· · · WILMER CUTLER PICKERING HALE AND DORR LLP
`
`21· · · 60 State Street
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`22· · · Boston, Massachusetts 02109
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`23· · · 617.526.6699· jason.liss@wilmerhale.com
`
`24· ALSO PRESENT (VIA TELEPHONE):· Vandana Koelsch
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`Page 4
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`·1· · · · · · · · ·P R O C E E D I N G S
`·2
`·3· · · · · · · · · HENRY HOUH, Ph.D.,
`·4· a witness called for examination by Straight Path,
`·5· having been satisfactorily identified by the
`·6· production of his Massachusetts driver's license,
`·7· and duly sworn by the Notary Public, was examined
`·8· and testified as follows:
`·9· · · · · · · · MR. NEWMAN:· Counsel, introduce
`10· ourselves.
`11· · · · · · · · Michael Newman, on behalf of Straight
`12· Path, Boston office of Mintz Levin.· With me is
`13· Nicholas Armington, and also in-house counsel for
`14· Straight Path, Vandana Koelsch, is attending by
`15· telephone.
`16· · · · · · · · MR. ERICKSON:· Brian Erickson, with
`17· DLA Piper, representing the witness and petitioner,
`18· Samsung.
`19· · · · · · · · MR. LISS:· Jason Liss, WilmerHale,
`20· representing Cisco Systems, Inc. and Avaya, Inc.,
`21· petitioners.
`22· · · · · · · · MR. NEWMAN:· Just for the record, the
`23· parties have an agreement -- with respect to this
`24· deposition, the parties have agreed to a single
`
`LG v. Straight Path, IPR2015-00198
`Straight Path - Exhibit 2039 - Page 1
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`Page 5
`·1· consolidated deposition for all of IPR2014-01366,
`·2· 01367, and 01368.
`·3· · · · · · · · The parties agree that this single
`·4· consolidated deposition can be used in each of the
`·5· three separate IPRs.· So when I reference the
`·6· asserted patents, therefore, I'm discussing the
`·7· '704 patent, the '121 patent, and the '469 patent
`·8· involved in those IPRs.
`·9· · · · · · · · The parties have also agreed to
`10· attempt to limit depositions in this matter to a
`11· single day but have reserved a second day should
`12· that attempt not be successful.
`13· · · · · · · · Anything to add, Counsel?
`14· · · · · · · · MR. ERICKSON:· That's correct.· The
`15· agreement also extends to any declarant the patent
`16· owner might use in their patent owner response.
`17· · · · · · · · (Off record.)
`18· · · · · · · · MR. NEWMAN:· In addition, counsel for
`19· Cisco and Via is in the room.· There's a pending
`20· motion to join this -- these three IPRs by Cisco,
`21· et al.· We have no objection to counsel for Cisco
`22· being in the room during this deposition.
`23· · · · · · · · MR. LISS:· And if I may add one
`24· thing, the -- those motions have not been granted,
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`Page 6
`·1· so whereas Michael described an agreement by which
`·2· this deposition would apply to those, I'm not sure
`·3· what the effect would be if those motions are not
`·4· granted.
`·5· · · · · · · · (Off record.)
`·6· · · · · · · · · · · EXAMINATION
`·7· BY MR. NEWMAN:
`·8· · · ·Q· · Good morning, Dr. Houh.
`·9· · · ·A· · Good morning, Mr. Newman.
`10· · · ·Q· · Could you please state your full name for
`11· the record?
`12· · · ·A· · My name is Henry Houh, H-O-U-H is how
`13· Houh's spelled.
`14· · · ·Q· · And what's your date of birth?
`15· · · ·A· · November 29th, 1967.
`16· · · ·Q· · And where do you currently reside?
`17· · · ·A· · I live in Lexington, Mass.
`18· · · · · · · · (Document exhibited to witness.)
`19· · · · · · · · (Off record.)
`20· · · ·Q· · So I just handed you what is marked as
`21· Samsung Exhibit 1004.· Do you recognize this
`22· document?
`23· · · ·A· · Yes, I -- yes, I do.
`24· · · ·Q· · And for the record, this is your
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`Page 7
`·1· declaration of Henry Houh in the '704 IPR, correct?
`·2· · · ·A· · Yes.· It's -- oh, this -- yes, this is
`·3· declaration of -- that I wrote, and it's signed on
`·4· page 56.
`·5· · · ·Q· · It's a 67-page document.· That's about
`·6· right.· There -- if you count the first couple of
`·7· pages, it might only be 66.
`·8· · · · · · · · It's marked from page 1 to page 67.
`·9· That's just for the record.
`10· · · ·A· · Oh, I see.· Yes, 67 pages.
`11· · · ·Q· · Did you draft this declaration?
`12· · · · · · · · MR. ERICKSON:· I'm going to caution
`13· the witness, I mean, the -- the -- you can answer
`14· that with yes or no, but, you know, the -- the
`15· drafting process involved in the declaration is
`16· beyond the scope of discovery and protectable work
`17· product.
`18· · · · · · · · So you can answer that -- that
`19· prefatory question yes or no, but I'm going to
`20· instruct you -- depending on the next question,
`21· it's likely I'll instruct you not to answer.
`22· · · · · · · · But go ahead.
`23· · · ·A· · There are portions that I -- I drafted,
`24· yes.
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`Page 8
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`·1· · · ·Q· · Are the statements in this declaration
`·2· true, to the best of your knowledge?
`·3· · · ·A· · Yes.
`·4· · · ·Q· · You mentioned that you drafted at least
`·5· portions of this.· What portions did you draft?
`·6· · · · · · · · MR. ERICKSON:· I instruct the witness
`·7· not -- not to answer.· It's beyond the scope of
`·8· discovery and protected under Federal Rule of Civil
`·9· Procedure 26.
`10· · · · · · · · MR. NEWMAN:· To the extent that the
`11· parties agree that that rule will apply to Straight
`12· Path as well, I'll forego further questioning on
`13· that matter.
`14· · · · · · · · MR. ERICKSON:· That's fine.
`15· BY MR. NEWMAN:
`16· · · ·Q· · What's your current occupation?
`17· · · ·A· · I do some technical consulting, and I
`18· also run a children's STEM education center.· It's
`19· called "Einstein's Workshop."
`20· · · ·Q· · Is that in Lexington?
`21· · · ·A· · It's actually in Burlington, Mass.
`22· · · ·Q· · How long have you been doing that for?
`23· · · ·A· · It depends how you count, but I started
`24· doing work with kids' robotics teams about five or
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`LG v. Straight Path, IPR2015-00198
`Straight Path - Exhibit 2039 - Page 2
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`Page 9
`·1· six years ago, and then I incorporated and -- and
`·2· got a facility about three years ago.
`·3· · · ·Q· · That's interesting.
`·4· · · · · · · · The -- what, do the kids come in and
`·5· learn about scientific concepts, that type of
`·6· thing?
`·7· · · ·A· · We have science classes, robotics
`·8· classes, computer programming classes, 3D modeling
`·9· classes, all sorts of classes for kids of all ages.
`10· · · ·Q· · Of all ages?
`11· · · ·A· · Yes, preschool all the way through
`12· adults, actually.
`13· · · ·Q· · And is that your sole profession right
`14· now?
`15· · · ·A· · Well, I do that as well as technical
`16· consulting.
`17· · · ·Q· · And your technical consulting is done
`18· through the Houh Consulting?
`19· · · ·A· · That's right.
`20· · · ·Q· · And you've been doing that since 2009,
`21· right?
`22· · · ·A· · Thereabouts.· I also did it before I
`23· incorporated as a business; but, yes, I was doing
`24· it maybe -- maybe a little bit earlier than that.
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`Page 10
`·1· I was employed by BBN where I was -- I started to
`·2· do some of this work, consulting work.
`·3· · · · · · · · THE STENOGRAPHER:· Is that B, as in
`·4· boy, BBN?
`·5· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yes.· BBN.
`·6· · · · · · · · THE STENOGRAPHER:· Thank you.
`·7· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· And that actually -- I
`·8· don't think it stands for anything now, but it --
`·9· it was -- used to stand for Bolt, Beranek & Newman,
`10· because there's a different BBN in this area as
`11· well.· It's a school.· It's -- it's not the school,
`12· BBN.
`13· · · ·Q· · That's a great name.
`14· · · · · · · · So have you been deposed before?
`15· · · ·A· · Yes, I have.
`16· · · ·Q· · A number of times, right?
`17· · · ·A· · A number of times, yes.
`18· · · ·Q· · Have you been deposed with respect to an
`19· IPR before?
`20· · · ·A· · Yes, I have.
`21· · · ·Q· · So you'll understand that once you've
`22· begun your testimony, you're not to consult with
`23· counsel with respect to that testimony, correct?
`24· · · ·A· · I do understand that.
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`Page 11
`·1· · · ·Q· · What IPRs have you been involved in,
`·2· besides this one?
`·3· · · ·A· · There have been a number of them. I
`·4· can't remember all of them.· I certainly can't tell
`·5· you the numbers offhand.
`·6· · · ·Q· · Are they disclosed in your -- in your CV
`·7· here?· And your CV begins at page 60 of
`·8· Exhibit 1004.
`·9· · · ·A· · I don't see them on here.· I usually have
`10· a separate thing that I list things like that.· But
`11· it only says "trials and depositions," but I guess
`12· it's incomplete.
`13· · · ·Q· · Let me see if we can fill it out.
`14· There -- there's been Apple versus Evolutionary
`15· Intelligence, correct?
`16· · · ·A· · That sounds right, yes.
`17· · · ·Q· · And you represented the petitioner in
`18· that case?
`19· · · ·A· · Yes, that's right.
`20· · · ·Q· · And there were a number of cases, right,
`21· 68 in the '82 investigations or --
`22· · · ·A· · I don't remember how many, but that
`23· sounds right.
`24· · · ·Q· · And there was Microsoft versus BE
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`Page 12
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`·1· Technology, correct?
`·2· · · ·A· · That's correct.
`·3· · · ·Q· · And that was on behalf of petitioner
`·4· again?
`·5· · · ·A· · Yes.
`·6· · · ·Q· · And then there was Microsoft versus
`·7· Telecommunication Systems, correct?
`·8· · · ·A· · I don't remember that one, but probably
`·9· it's correct, since you've got the list.
`10· · · ·Q· · All right.· And you represented the
`11· petitioner again?· You would not have represented
`12· Telecommunication Systems?
`13· · · ·A· · That's right, it would have been the
`14· petitioner that I represented.
`15· · · ·Q· · Have you always represented the
`16· petitioner when representing a client for an IPR?
`17· · · ·A· · So far up till now, that's true.· I think
`18· I've only been doing this for a year or a year and
`19· a half for IPRs.
`20· · · ·Q· · And so also there was Cisco versus AIP
`21· Acquisitions, correct?
`22· · · ·A· · Yes, that's right.
`23· · · ·Q· · And Verizon and AT&T versus Solocron
`24· Media, right?
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`LG v. Straight Path, IPR2015-00198
`Straight Path - Exhibit 2039 - Page 3
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`Page 13
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`·1· · · ·A· · That sounds right.
`·2· · · ·Q· · Any others that you can think of that I'm
`·3· missing?
`·4· · · ·A· · I think there's one called Microsoft
`·5· versus Biscotti.
`·6· · · ·Q· · Anything else?
`·7· · · ·A· · That's all that comes to mind at the
`·8· moment.
`·9· · · ·Q· · Thank you.
`10· · · · · · · · So let's turn to the background
`11· section of your declaration, which begins on what
`12· is marked as Exhibit 1000 -- zero -- 1004, page 3.
`13· When I refer to page numbers throughout the day,
`14· I'll be referring to that page number at the bottom
`15· right-hand corner as opposed to the larger centered
`16· page number --
`17· · · ·A· · Okay.
`18· · · ·Q· · -- just for convenience.
`19· · · · · · · · In -- in 1995, the Internet as we
`20· know it was relatively new, correct?
`21· · · ·A· · That depends what you mean by the
`22· Internet, but it was pretty well established by
`23· 1995.
`24· · · ·Q· · There were not a lot of web servers, were
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`Page 14
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`·1· there, in '95?
`·2· · · ·A· · Yeah, I think -- I think the Internet
`·3· encompasses more than just web servers.· But in
`·4· '95, there were a fair number, and I was at -- at
`·5· that time tracking the number, but there certainly
`·6· weren't as many as today.
`·7· · · ·Q· · You started building web servers in 1993,
`·8· correct?
`·9· · · ·A· · That sounds about right.
`10· · · ·Q· · In -- in the servers that you built for
`11· MIT -- is that where you were building them?
`12· · · ·A· · Yes, I was at MIT when I started working
`13· on -- on setting up web servers.
`14· · · ·Q· · And in 1993 the web servers that you
`15· work -- were working on, you considered those to be
`16· among the first hundred or so web servers in
`17· existence, right?
`18· · · ·A· · The -- the -- I believe they were, if not
`19· the first hundred, several hundred web servers set
`20· up.
`21· · · ·Q· · And in that time frame, you believe that
`22· you went on to provide what is likely one of the
`23· first live Internet video initiated from a website,
`24· correct?
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`Page 15
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`·1· · · ·A· · That's right.
`·2· · · ·Q· · What year was that?
`·3· · · ·A· · I believe it might have been 1994 or late
`·4· '93.· I -- I don't remember exactly the date.
`·5· · · ·Q· · But this was pretty exciting stuff back
`·6· then, right?· This was new technology?
`·7· · · ·A· · It was pretty exciting.· It was using the
`·8· Internet, which had existed for many years before
`·9· that, but the web made it a lot easier to access
`10· data on the Internet.
`11· · · ·Q· · How is that?
`12· · · ·A· · It provided a graphical user interface to
`13· information on the web, and it -- and there was a
`14· markup language which allowed people to easily link
`15· to other resources and provide graphical images.
`16· · · ·Q· · So in your declaration at paragraph 9 and
`17· forward to paragraph 14, all of the technology
`18· described there took place after 1995, correct?
`19· · · ·A· · That's -- that's -- well, paragraph 13
`20· says I was the author of several publications.
`21· Some of those would have occurred before '95.
`22· · · ·Q· · And I just wanted to point something out.
`23· In paragraph 9, you reference a patent that a
`24· company that you founded received?
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`Page 16
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`·1· · · ·A· · Yes.
`·2· · · ·Q· · I notice that you have that patent listed
`·3· in a number of other declarations for other IPRs,
`·4· and there's a typo, so I just want to point it out
`·5· for you.
`·6· · · ·A· · Oh, is there?
`·7· · · ·Q· · I think it's patent 6967963.
`·8· · · ·A· · Oh, so there's a typo.· I apologize. I
`·9· never caught that.· I guess it's a transposition
`10· error.· Thank you.· It's -- it's listed correctly
`11· in my CV, apparently.
`12· · · ·Q· · Right.· I just wanted to point it out.
`13· You know, because I know it's been propagated.
`14· · · ·A· · Yes, I -- sometimes I use the same text
`15· and --
`16· · · ·Q· · Absolutely.· That makes all the sense in
`17· the world.
`18· · · · · · · · Do you remember the first time you
`19· used Windows NT Server -- let me back up.
`20· · · · · · · · Have you ever used Windows NT Server?
`21· · · ·A· · I believe I did, yes.
`22· · · ·Q· · Do you remember the first time you used
`23· it?
`24· · · ·A· · I don't -- I don't recall the exact date.
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`LG v. Straight Path, IPR2015-00198
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`Page 17
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`·1· Probably sometime in the mid '90s.
`·2· · · ·Q· · And do you remember the last time you
`·3· used it?
`·4· · · ·A· · Not more than -- not -- less than 15
`·5· years ago, because I remember doing it for a class
`·6· I was helping with at MIT doing some work on an NT
`·7· Server.· I don't remember exact date.
`·8· · · ·Q· · Have you ever used an NT Workstation?
`·9· · · ·A· · Yes.
`10· · · ·Q· · Do you remember the first time you used
`11· an NT Workstation?
`12· · · ·A· · Probably was about the same time as the
`13· NT Server.
`14· · · ·Q· · What's the difference between the Windows
`15· NT Server and the Windows NT Workstation?
`16· · · ·A· · My understanding is that the NT Server
`17· had a lot more features for providing additional
`18· services.
`19· · · ·Q· · What do you mean by "services"?
`20· · · ·A· · Things like a web server.· Number of
`21· active connections that -- that could be made with
`22· such a service I think was higher in -- in NT
`23· Server versus NT.
`24· · · ·Q· · NT Server allowed you to administer the
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`Page 18
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`·1· WINS system, correct?
`·2· · · ·A· · That sounds -- that sounds right.
`·3· · · ·Q· · And NT Workstation did not, right?
`·4· · · ·A· · I think it could participate, but I
`·5· don't -- I don't -- I don't know if it could
`·6· administer.
`·7· · · · · · · · THE STENOGRAPHER:· What's that, WINS,
`·8· or --
`·9· · · · · · · · MR. NEWMAN:· It starts WINS.· It's
`10· capital W-I-N-S.
`11· · · · · · · · THE STENOGRAPHER:· Thank you.
`12· · · ·Q· · Do you remember the -- have you ever used
`13· a system configured to support NetBIOS?
`14· · · ·A· · I believe so, yes.
`15· · · ·Q· · And when did you first do that?
`16· · · ·A· · Probably -- again, probably around the
`17· early to mid '90s.· I don't remember the exact
`18· date.
`19· · · ·Q· · Prior to your use of Windows NT Server?
`20· · · ·A· · I think so probably, but I don't recall
`21· exactly.
`22· · · ·Q· · Windows NT Server was not your first time
`23· using a system that implemented NetBIOS, was it?
`24· · · ·A· · I don't think it was.
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`Page 19
`·1· · · · · · · · THE STENOGRAPHER:· NetBIOS?
`·2· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Right.· It's --
`·3· · · · · · · · THE STENOGRAPHER:· Okay.
`·4· · · · · · · · MR. NEWMAN:· Capital N-E-T, capital
`·5· B-I-O-S.
`·6· · · · · · · · THE STENOGRAPHER:· All together?
`·7· · · · · · · · MR. NEWMAN:· Let me help you out.
`·8· BY MR. NEWMAN:
`·9· · · ·Q· · What does NetBIOS stand for?
`10· · · ·A· · I think it's -- I think it -- believe
`11· stands for network, you know, basic input/output
`12· system, something like that.
`13· · · ·Q· · And have you heard the acronym NBNS?
`14· · · ·A· · I believe so, yes.
`15· · · ·Q· · What does that acronym mean?
`16· · · ·A· · I believe it's something like the NetBIOS
`17· name server or something.
`18· · · ·Q· · And the acronym WINS, what does that
`19· mean?
`20· · · ·A· · I think that stands for the Windows
`21· Internet or name service or something like that.
`22· I -- yeah, I -- I mean, I may have got the details
`23· wrong, but I think I generally understand what
`24· you're -- you're talking about when you use these
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`Page 20
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`·1· acronyms.
`·2· · · ·Q· · Thanks.
`·3· · · · · · · · And WINS is an implementation of
`·4· NetBIOS, correct?
`·5· · · ·A· · I believe so, yes.· I believe it has
`·6· more, but -- but it encompasses NetBIOS.
`·7· · · ·Q· · And what do you mean by "it encompasses
`·8· NetBIOS"?
`·9· · · ·A· · It's an implementation, but it has more
`10· features such as administration and -- and, you
`11· know, the -- it's a service that runs rather than
`12· the name of a standard or whatever.
`13· · · ·Q· · In paragraph 91 of Exhibit 1004, this
`14· footnote 5 in which you say, Because Microsoft
`15· Manual is based on NetBIOS, compatible with the
`16· NetBIOS protocol specifications, and interoperable
`17· with the NetBIOS-compliant implementations, the
`18· Microsoft Manual and RFCs 1001 and 1002 should be
`19· treated as a single anticipatory reference.
`20· · · · · · · · Do you agree that WINS, Windows NT
`21· Server, and NetBIOS are a single reference?
`22· · · · · · · · MR. ERICKSON:· Objection to the
`23· extent it calls for a legal conclusion.
`24· · · ·A· · I -- I think what I'm saying here is it's
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`·1· the manual, the Microsoft Manual and the RFCs that
`·2· should be treated as a single anticipatory
`·3· reference, but that it's the -- out of -- you know,
`·4· it says -- it goes on to say, Out of the abundance
`·5· of caution, Petitioner treats the references as an
`·6· obvious combination.
`·7· · · ·Q· · But when I'm -- when I'm referring to
`·8· WINS, I'm also necessarily referring to NetBIOS,
`·9· right?
`10· · · ·A· · I -- I think it would depend on the exact
`11· context you're -- you're talking in.· I mean, if --
`12· if you're referring about -- referring to a
`13· document or -- I -- I would have to know more about
`14· how you're referring to WINS, I think, to answer
`15· that.
`16· · · ·Q· · Because WINS does more than NetBIOS,
`17· right?
`18· · · ·A· · I don't think -- I think it's just the
`19· context.· I just need to hear more.· You know,
`20· sometimes it's the server; sometimes it's the
`21· document.· You know, it's -- you know, the
`22· references we talk about here are the manual and
`23· the RFCs as opposed to a physical device running.
`24· · · ·Q· · Right.· So in an IPR, the physical device
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`·1· is not at issue; it's just the manuals.· Do you
`·2· understand that?
`·3· · · ·A· · It's the -- this is based on the
`·4· teachings of the manual combined with the RFCs.
`·5· Either -- you know, the statement here says that it
`·6· should be treated as a single reference, but -- but
`·7· the -- it's being treated as an obvious
`·8· combination.
`·9· · · ·Q· · I'm handing you a document that's marked
`10· Samsung Exhibit 1012.
`11· · · ·A· · Yes, I have it.
`12· · · ·Q· · And for the record, it goes from page 1
`13· to page 278.
`14· · · ·A· · Yes, I see that.
`15· · · ·Q· · Can you please turn to page 12 of
`16· Exhibit 1012.
`17· · · ·A· · Okay.· I'm on page 12.
`18· · · ·Q· · See there's a list of requests for
`19· comments or RFCs there?
`20· · · ·A· · Yes.
`21· · · ·Q· · In your opinion, are all of these RFCs
`22· incorporated within this document in the same way
`23· as NetBIOS?
`24· · · ·A· · I didn't think I said that the -- the
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`·1· one -- the RFCs 1001 and 2 were incorporated.
`·2· These are simply a list of RFCs.· The title is
`·3· "Request for Comments (RFCs) supported by Microsoft
`·4· TCP/IP."
`·5· · · ·Q· · Do you see RFC 826, Address Resolution
`·6· Protocol, ARP?
`·7· · · ·A· · Yes.
`·8· · · ·Q· · What's that?
`·9· · · ·A· · My understanding is that's a protocol
`10· used to resolve MAC addresses, media access
`11· protocol addresses, on an ethernet or other link
`12· layer.
`13· · · ·Q· · Do you know how ARP does that?
`14· · · ·A· · Yes.· I have a general understanding.
`15· · · · · · · · MR. ERICKSON:· Just for the record,
`16· I'm going to object -- object.· This is outside the
`17· scope of his declaration.
`18· · · · · · · · But you can go ahead.
`19· · · ·Q· · Is ARP a network protocol?
`20· · · ·A· · In the sense it's used on a network to
`21· resolve MAC addresses, sure.
`22· · · ·Q· · See RFC 854 right below that, Telnet
`23· Protocol?
`24· · · ·A· · Yes, I see that.
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`·1· · · ·Q· · Is Telnet a network protocol?
`·2· · · ·A· · Again, it's generally used over a network
`·3· between machines, so I would say sure.
`·4· · · ·Q· · Are you familiar with the hypertext
`·5· transport protocol?
`·6· · · ·A· · Yes, I am.
`·7· · · ·Q· · Is that a network protocol?
`·8· · · ·A· · Again, it's generally used over a network
`·9· to request and transfer data between machines, so
`10· it's part -- in addition, it's generally considered
`11· one of the -- protocols in the networking stack,
`12· so, sure.
`13· · · · · · · · THE STENOGRAPHER:· Networking what?
`14· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Stack.· Sorry.
`15· · · ·Q· · Would you consider DNS a network
`16· protocol?
`17· · · ·A· · Well, DNS typically refers to domain name
`18· system, if you're referring it to be the protocol
`19· used in that system, but as -- as a system, I
`20· wouldn't call a system a protocol.
`21· · · ·Q· · So back to NetBIOS and WINS and their
`22· similarities.· Is it fair to say that aspects of
`23· NetBIOS are inherent in the WINS system?
`24· · · ·A· · Well, if you -- if one implemented WINS
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`·1· in a different manner and didn't use NetBIOS, I
`·2· would say it's not inherent, but it -- the teaching
`·3· is that that's what it is.· So -- so you could
`·4· certainly violate the standard and not do it --
`·5· certain things that are required, I suppose.
`·6· But -- but if you think about WINS generally,
`·7· it's -- it's an implementation of NetBIOS.
`·8· · · ·Q· · Do you see at the bottom of page 13 of
`·9· Exhibit 1012, it says, "In this version of Windows
`10· NT, Microsoft TCP/IP does not include a complete
`11· suite of TCP/IP connectivity utilities, Network
`12· File System (NFS) support, or some TCP/IP server
`13· services (daemons) such as routed and telnetd."
`14· · · · · · · · Did I read that correctly?
`15· · · ·A· · Almost.· I think most people would say
`16· route-d and telnet-d.
`17· · · ·Q· · Most smart people.
`18· · · ·A· · "Routed" is a word, but I think it refers
`19· to a route daemon as opposed to something being
`20· "routed," and telnetd refers to the -- the serve --
`21· the -- the service offering telnet.
`22· · · ·Q· · Thanks.
`23· · · · · · · · And what is routed?
`24· · · ·A· · I believe it's a -- it's with respect to,
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`·1· I believe, a IP layer routing some sort of service.
`·2· I'm not -- I don't recall exactly what features it
`·3· has.
`·4· · · ·Q· · What's a router?
`·5· · · ·A· · Generally speaking, a router is some -- a
`·6· device that provides lookup and forwarding for --
`·7· for network layer packets.
`·8· · · ·Q· · Is it a server?
`·9· · · ·A· · I would generally not call a router a
`10· server, but I believe it depends on the context of
`11· whatever we're talking about.· I would generally
`12· not call it a server.
`13· · · ·Q· · Can routers have FTP servers on them?
`14· · · ·A· · I wouldn't think of as -- a pure router
`15· as -- as something that always has an FTP server.
`16· But it's certainly possible to put an FTP server on
`17· a -- on the device that -- that is running as a
`18· router.· Excuse me.
`19· · · ·Q· · Would you consider a router that had an
`20· FTP server on it to be a server?
`21· · · · · · · · MR. ERICKSON:· Objection, incomplete
`22· hypothetical, outside the scope of his declaration.
`23· · · ·A· · I think it depends on the context.
`24· · · ·Q· · Give me an example of a context upon
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`·1· which it would depend.
`·2· · · · · · · · MR. ERICKSON:· Same objections.
`·3· · · ·A· · So if I'm thinking about the Internet
`·4· generally and where it has lots of routers all over
`·5· forwarding traffic and routing traffic for -- for
`·6· all the users, I generally wouldn't consider a
`·7· router a server in that -- in that way.
`·8· · · · · · · · It may have other services that --
`·9· that administrators may use to get into the router
`10· and configure it.· But being a very specialized
`11· device, I would still think about it as a router
`12· and not a server, and I believe most people think
`13· of it as just a router.
`14· · · ·Q· · And what about a gateway, is that a
`15· server?
`16· · · ·A· · Again, I think a gateway is typically
`17· some sort of router that acts as a -- as a gateway
`18· to the rest of the network for a particular
`19· subnetwork.· It's -- generally, if you're just
`20· talking about a gateway implement as just a
`21· gateway, I wouldn't generally consider it a server,
`22· but it depends, again, on the context and what it's
`23· running on and whatnot.
`24· · · ·Q· · So back to this statement in the bottom
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`·1· of page 13 of Exhibit 1012, it says that it does
`·2· not include a complete suite of TCP/IP, ellipses,
`·3· such as routed.· What does it mean that it does not
`·4· include that?
`·5· · · ·A· · Well, this is in a section talking about
`·6· overview of TCP/IP for Windows NT, and mine -- I
`·7· would interpret that as -- as being it doesn't come
`·8· by default with a standard NT installation.
`·9· · · ·Q· · We'd have to go to a separate resource to
`10· get it, correct?
`11· · · ·A· · The separate re -- yes, it may be on
`12· install disk, but it just might not be installed by
`13· default.
`14· · · ·Q· · It says it does not include it.· So it
`15· would be unlikely that it would be on an install
`16· disk, right?
`17· · · ·A· · I wouldn't necessarily say that.· I mean,
`18· oftentimes when you're installing these machines
`19· from disks or CDs, the disks or CDs include a lot
`20· of -- more things that are required for the
`21· particular install.
`22· · · · · · · · And I think it -- you'd have to try
`23· to install this and ask -- and it may decide to ask
`24· you for one of those install disks to insert.· And
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`·1· that was very common at the time when installing
`·2· network services, that many of them came on the
`·3· install disks that were not installed by default.
`·4· · · ·Q· · So if I was to install Windows NT Server,
`·5· you believe that the statement here that it doesn't
`·6· include routed means that it could still be
`·7· included?
`·8· · · · · · · · MR. ERICKSON:· Objection to form.
`·9· · · ·A· · Well, this is talking about Windows NT,
`10· and -- and it does say NT Server on the cover.
`11· · · · · · · · But this overview and saying that
`12· it's not -- does not include in this version,
`13· again, as I've stated, you know, I installed many
`14· machines like this at the time, and there were many
`15· network services and many network features that --
`16· that were often included in the CDs but not
`17· installed by default.
`18· · · ·Q· · But this -- does this suggest to you that
`19· this disk would not have routed and telnetd on it
`20· just by the statement?
`21· · · · · · · · THE STENOGRAPHER:· Routed and?
`22· · · · · · · · MR. ERICKSON:· Telnetd,
`23· T-E-L-N-E-T-D, small D at the end.
`24· · · ·A· · I -- I probably wouldn't draw the
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`·1· conclusion necessarily that it's not included on
`·2· the disk, but then, again, I don't know that it
`·3· was.· So I don't think this statement in isolation
`·4· would have told me that one way or the other.
`·5· · · ·Q· · All right.· Let's go back to your
`·6· declaration for a minute.· I'd like to discuss the
`·7· materials you considered in forming your
`·8· declaration.· On Exhibit 1004, page 7, it's the
`·9· little page number --
`10· · · ·A· · Um-hm, yes.
`11· · · ·Q· · -- it begins a list of your materials
`12· considered, which continues on to page 8.· So I'll
`13· give you a second to review that, and then I've got
`14· a couple questions for you.
`15· · · · · · · · (Witness perusing document.)
`16· · · · · · · · (Off record.)
`17· · · ·A· · Yes, I've -- I've looked at this list.
`18· · · ·Q· · There's a number of RFCs referenced in
`19· here, right?· There's NetBIOS, and then there's
`20· also dynamic host configuration protocol,
`21· transmission control protocol, and Internet
`22· protocol.· Why do you consult -- why do you feel
`23· the need to consult those protocols?
`24· · · ·A· · I -- I believe -- I may have referenced
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`·1· it somewhere in my -- in this declaration or --
`·2· but...
`·3· · · · · · · · (Witness perusing document.)
`·4· · · ·A· · For example, in paragraph 35, starting on
`·5· 33 to 35, I talk about the DHCP RFC, so certainly I
`·6· referenced it.
`·7· · · ·Q· · Are those protocols necessary to
`·8· understand Microsoft's Windows NT Server?
`·9· · · · · · · · MR. ERICKSON:· Objection to form.
`10· · · ·A· · I mean, I think it was what someone might
`11· have -- you know, people would have known generally
`12· about TCP.· I'm not sure if I specifically
`13· referenced TCP elsewhere in this -- in my
`14· declaration.
`15· · · ·Q· · But you don't need to combine those
`16· references with Windows NT Server to -- for your
`17· o