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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`_____________________________
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`APPLE, INC., HTC CORPORATION,
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`HTC AMERICA, INC., et al.,
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` Petitioners,
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` V.
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`MEMORY INTEGRITY, LLC,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
`___________________________________/
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF VOJIN G. OKLOBDZIJA, PH.D.
`
` Redwood City, California
`
` Monday, November 23, 2015
`
` VOLUME I
`
`Reported by:
`
`Kelli Combs, CSR No. 7705
`
`Job No. 2188187
`
`PAGES 1 - 155
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`_____________________________
`
`APPLE, INC., HTC CORPORATION,
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`HTC AMERICA, INC., et al.,
`
` Petitioners,
`
` V.
`
`MEMORY INTEGRITY, LLC,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
`___________________________________/
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF VOJIN G. OKLOBDZIJA, PH.D.
`
` Redwood City, California
`
` Monday, November 23, 2015
`
` VOLUME I
`
`Reported by:
`
`Kelli Combs, CSR No. 7705
`
`Job No. 2188187
`
`PAGES 1 - 155
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`Page 1
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`
`
` Videotaped Deposition of VOJIN G. OKLOBDZIJA,
`
`PH.D., Volume I, taken on behalf of Petitioners, at
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`FISH & RICHARDSON, 500 Arguello Road, Suite 500, Redwood
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`City, California, commencing at 10:17 a.m., Monday,
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`November 23, 2015, before Kelli Combs, CSR No. 7705.
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`APPEARANCE OF COUNSEL:
`
`For Petitoners Apple, Inc., HTC Corporation, HTC
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` America, Inc., Samsung Electronics Company, Ltd.,
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` Samsung Electronics America, Inc., Samsung
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` Telecommunications America, LLC and Amazon.com, Inc.:
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` FISH & RICHARDSON
`
` BY: MICHAEL REUCKHEIM, ESQ.
`
` DAVID HOLT, ESQ.
`
` 1221 McKinney Street, Suite 2800
`
` Houston, Texas 77010
`
` 713-654-5300
`
` rueckheim@fr.com
`
`For the Petitioner Sony Corporation, Sony Electronics,
`
` Inc., Sony Mobile Communications AB and Sony Mobile
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` Communications USA, Inc.:
`
` KENYON & KENYON
`
` BY: ZAED M. BILLAH, ESQ.
`
` One Broadway
`
` New York, New York 10004-1007
`
` 212.425.7200
`
` zbillah@kenyon.com
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`APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL CONTINUED:
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`For The Patent Owner, Memory Integrity, LLC:
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` FARNEY DANIELS PC
`
` BY: MICHAEL D. SAUNDERS, ESQ.
`
` 411 Borel Avenue, Suite 350
`
` San Mateo, California 94402
`
` (650) 833-2442
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` msaunders@farneydaniels.com
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`ALSO PRESENT:
`
` Ramon Peraza, Videographer
`
` Robert Horst, Ph.D., Expert for Petitioners
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`
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` I N D E X
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`EXAMINATION PAGE
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`VOJIN G. OKLOBDZIJA, PH.D.
`
` (BY MR. RUECKHEIM) 10
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` EXHIBIT INDEX
`NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
`Exhibit 1 Dr. Oklobdzija's reply 12
` declaration
`
`Exhibit 2 Dr. Oklobdzija's 12
` declaration submitted in
` connection with Memory
` Integrity's Motion to Amend
`Exhibit 3 Document titled "Memory 14
` Integrity LLC's Patent
` Owner Preliminary Response
` Pursuant to 37 CFR Section
` 42.107(a)"
`Exhibit 4 Document titled "Memory 16
` Integrity LLC's Patent
` Owner Preliminary Response
` Pursuant to 37 CFR Section
` 42.107(a)"
`Exhibit 5 US Patent No. 7,296,121 19
`Exhibit 6 Document titled "Decision, 44
` Institution of Inter Partes
` Review, 37 CFR 42.108"
` dated May 11, 2015
`
`Exhibit 7 Memory Integrity's Appendix 60
` of Claims in Support of its
` Motion to Amend
`
`Exhibit 8 United States Patent 70
` Application Publication,
` Pong, publication No.: US
` 2002/0053004 A1
`Exhibit 9 Document titled "Design and 71
` Performance of SMPs With
` Asynchronous Caches"
` authored by Fong Pong dated
` November 1999
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` EXHIBIT INDEX
`
`NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
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`Exhibit 10 Document titled "Parallel 105
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` Computer Architecture,
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` Hardware/Software Approach"
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` authored by David Culler
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`Exhibit 11 US Patent No. 7,698,509 146
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` Monday, November 23, 2015; Redwood City, California
`
` 10:17 a.m.
`
` ---o0o---
`
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. We are
`
`on the record at 10:17 a.m. on November 23rd, 2015. 10:17:41AM
`
`This is the videotaped deposition of Dr. Vojin
`
`Oklobdzija. My name is Ramon Peraza, here with our
`
`court reporter, Kelli Combs.
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` We are here from Veritext Legal Solutions
`
`at the request of counsel for the Petitioner. This 10:17:58AM
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`deposition is being held at Fish & Richardson in
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`Redwood City. The caption of this case is Apple,
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`Inc., et al. versus Memory Integrity, LLC., Case
`
`Number IPR2015-00159.
`
` Please note that audio and video recording 10:18:17AM
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`will take place unless all parties have agreed to go
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`off the record. Microphones are sensitive and may
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`pick up whispers or private conversations.
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` At this time, Counsel, please identify
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`yourselves for the record and state whom you 10:18:30AM
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`represent.
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` MR. RUECKHEIM: Michael Rueckheim of
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`Fish & Richardson representing Apple, Inc., HTC
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`Corporation, HTC America, Inc., Samsung Electronics
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`Company, Ltd., Samsung Electronics America, Inc., 10:18:42AM
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`Samsung Telecommunications America, LLC and 10:18:46AM
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`Amazon.com, Inc.
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` With me today are Dr. Horst and David
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`Holt.
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` MR. BILLAH: Zaed Billah from 10:18:55AM
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`Kenyon & Kenyon representing Sony Corporation, Sony
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`Electronics, Inc., Sony Mobile Communications AB and
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`Sony Mobile Communications USA, Inc.
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` MR. SAUNDERS: Michael Saunders of Farney
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`Daniels PC. I'm here representing the Patent Owner, 10:19:09AM
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`Memory Integrity, LLC, and also the witness.
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The court reporter may
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`now swear in the witness.
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` VOJIN G. OKLOBDZIJA, PH.D.,
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` after having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 10:19:18AM
`
` ---o0o---
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` MR. RUECKHEIM: Before we start, just a
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`clarification for the record, this deposition is
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`being taken jointly in IPR2015-00158, IPR2015-00159
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`and IPR2015-00163. 10:19:42AM
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` MR. SAUNDERS: Yes, that confirms our
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`earlier correspondence.
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` MR. RUECKHEIM: Okay.
`
` 10:19:52AM
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` EXAMINATION 10:19:52AM
`
`BY MR. RUECKHEIM:
`
` Q Good morning, Dr. Oklobdzija.
`
` A Oklobdzija (pronounced differently.)
`
` Good morning. 10:20:00AM
`
` Q Thank you. Feel free to correct me any
`
`time during the deposition.
`
` Can you please spell your name for the
`
`record.
`
` A Vojin, V-O-J-I-N. Oklobdzija, 10:20:10AM
`
`O-K-L-O-B-D-Z-I-J-A. Phonetically it's
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`O-K-L-O-B-J-I-A.
`
` Q Do you understand that you're under oath
`
`today?
`
` A Yes. 10:20:26AM
`
` Q Is there any reason why you can't give
`
`full and accurate testimony today?
`
` A No.
`
` Q Have you been deposed previously?
`
` A Yes. 10:20:35AM
`
` Q How many times?
`
` A Probably between half a dozen and a dozen
`
`times. I don't recall the accurate number.
`
` Q Were all of these prior depositions in the
`
`context of providing expert opinion? 10:20:51AM
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` A Yes. 10:20:55AM
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` Q Did any of these prior depositions involve
`
`the subject matter of cache coherency?
`
` A Not directly that I can recall.
`
` Q So just some general ground rules I'm sure 10:21:20AM
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`you've heard before. To the extent that you need to
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`take a break at any time during today's deposition,
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`just let me know; shouldn't be a problem. We
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`typically ask for you to finish, you know, if
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`there's a question pending to answer the question 10:21:32AM
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`that's pending before you take a break, but
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`otherwise, shouldn't be a problem.
`
` Does that makes sense?
`
` A Thank you.
`
` Q Also if there's a question that you don't 10:21:39AM
`
`understand, please let me know; otherwise, I'll
`
`assume that you have understood the question that
`
`was asked.
`
` A I understand. Thank you.
`
` Q Okay. 10:21:49AM
`
` So also just for terminology, did you
`
`submit two declarations in this -- in these IPR
`
`proceedings?
`
` A Yes, I did, to the best of my knowledge.
`
` Q Would it make sense if I refer to one as 10:22:04AM
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`your reply declaration and the other as your Motion 10:22:06AM
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`to Amend declaration?
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` A Okay. So the reply would be the thick
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`one, yes. That would be easier.
`
` Q I'm going to hand you what has been marked 10:22:41AM
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`as IPR2015-00159, -00163, Exhibit 2016.
`
` (Deposition Exhibit 1 marked for
`
` identification.)
`
`BY MR. RUECKHEIM:
`
` Q For clarity, let's go ahead and mark this 10:23:13AM
`
`too with a deposition exhibit as well.
`
` So actually, can I have that one back from
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`you, sir? Let's mark that as Exhibit 1.
`
` Do you have Exhibit 1 in front of you?
`
` A Excuse me? 10:23:45AM
`
` Q Do you have Exhibit 1 in front of you?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q Okay.
`
` What is Exhibit 1?
`
` A This is my declaration; we said we were 10:23:49AM
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`going to refer to it as reply.
`
` Q Reply declaration?
`
` A Reply declaration.
`
` (Deposition Exhibit 2 marked for
`
` identification.) 10:24:14AM
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`BY MR. RUECKHEIM: 10:24:18AM
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` Q Dr. Oklobdzija, the court reporter has
`
`handed you Exhibit 2. Do you have Exhibit 2 in
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`front of you?
`
` A Yes, I do. 10:24:57AM
`
` Q What is Exhibit 2?
`
` A This is a Motion to Amend.
`
` Q Is Exhibit 2 the declaration you submitted
`
`in connection with Memory Integrity's Motion to
`
`Amend? 10:25:14AM
`
` A Yes, I did.
`
` Q Would it be understandable if I referred
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`to Exhibit 2 as the Motion to Amend declaration?
`
` A That would make it easier.
`
` Q When were you first engaged by Memory 10:25:41AM
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`Integrity in connection with this case?
`
` A I think I can give you exact date.
`
`July 2nd, 2015.
`
` Q You said July 2nd, 2015?
`
` A 2015. Because I just looked at the date 10:26:01AM
`
`of my engagement letter.
`
` Q So were you engaged by Memory Integrity
`
`after Memory Integrity had already submitted the
`
`preliminary responses in these IPR matters?
`
` A I don't know when they did submit 10:26:26AM
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`preliminary responses. If you can -- and what 10:26:30AM
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`you're referring to, are those the five ones that
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`they submitted?
`
` Q Well, so are you familiar with the term
`
`"preliminary response" in connection with IPR 10:26:42AM
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`proceedings?
`
` A Can you clarify it?
`
` (Deposition Exhibit 3 marked for
`
` identification.)
`
`BY MR. RUECKHEIM: 10:27:35AM
`
` Q Dr. Oklobdzija, the court reporter has
`
`handed you deposition Exhibit 3. Do you have that
`
`in front of you?
`
` A Yes, I do.
`
` Q Exhibit 3 bears the title "Memory 10:27:50AM
`
`Integrity LLC's Patent Owner Preliminary Response
`
`Pursuant to 37 CFR Section 42.107(a)."
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A Yes, I see that.
`
` Q If you can turn to the last page of this 10:28:05AM
`
`document, page 60. Do you see the date there is
`
`February?
`
` A Yes, February 13.
`
` Q So would this document have been submitted
`
`prior to your involvement in the Memory Integrity 10:28:16AM
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`matter -- 10:28:19AM
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` A Apparently, yes.
`
` Q And have you ever reviewed this document
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`before today?
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` A I believe I did. I did. I review a lot 10:28:36AM
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`of documents so I cannot be -- but I -- I -- it
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`does -- it does look like something that I have
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`read.
`
` Q Okay.
`
` If you can turn to -- let's see, page 13 10:28:51AM
`
`in Exhibit 3 -- I'm sorry, page 14.
`
` Do you see here that Patent Owner is
`
`providing a construction for the term "states"?
`
` A Yes, I did -- I do.
`
` Q Okay. 10:29:19AM
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` So you did not assist Patent Owner in
`
`developing the construction for the term "states" in
`
`this document, correct?
`
` A No.
`
` Q Is it fair to say you did not assist 10:29:32AM
`
`Patent Owner in developing the proposed construction
`
`for any of the terms in this paper?
`
` A In this particular document?
`
` Q Correct.
`
` A Unless they were changed later, but not on 10:29:42AM
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`February 13th. 10:29:46AM
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` (Deposition Exhibit 4 marked for
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` identification.)
`
`BY MR. RUECKHEIM:
`
` Q Dr. Oklobdzija, the court reporter has 10:30:26AM
`
`handed you deposition Exhibit 4. Do you have that
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`in front of you?
`
` A Yes, I do.
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` Q Do you see that deposition Exhibit 4 bears
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`the title "Memory Integrity LLC's Patent Owner 10:30:35AM
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`Preliminary Response Pursuant to 37 CFR Section
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`42.107(a)"?
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` A Yes, it does.
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` Q Okay.
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` Do you see the top of Exhibit 4 on the 10:30:45AM
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`first page it says "IPR2015-00163"?
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` A -00163, yes.
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` Q And then if you can turn to the last page,
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`again, and do you see that the date of this document
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`is listed as February 13th, 2015? 10:31:00AM
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` A Yes.
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` Q Okay.
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` So is it fair to say that you did not
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`participate in developing any proposed constructions
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`that are offered in Exhibit 4? 10:31:13AM
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` A It's fair to say. 10:31:15AM
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` Q And just for clarity, can you please turn
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`back to Exhibit 3.
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` A Yes.
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` Q Do you see at the top of Exhibit 3 it says 10:31:24AM
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`"IPR2015-00159"?
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` A I do.
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` Q Okay.
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` Is it fair to say that you did not assist
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`in developing any of the arguments presented in 10:31:41AM
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`Exhibits 3 and 4?
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` A Yes. They were prepared prior to the time
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`I was engaged.
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` Q You're being compensated for your role
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`with respect to these IPR proceedings, correct? 10:31:59AM
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` A Yes.
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` Q What is your rate?
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` A My rate is 450 per hour.
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` Q How much have you invoiced so far?
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` A I believe I have -- if you give me a 10:32:15AM
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`second, I'll try to calculate. Okay? Probably in
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`the order of excess of 60 hours. I'd say 50 to 60,
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`but I still have hours which I haven't invoiced,
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`so...
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` Q Well, I guess the question is: How much 10:32:47AM
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`time have you spent on the Memory Integrity IPR 10:32:50AM
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`proceedings in total?
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` A I would say in excess of 60 hours.
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` Q So somewhere between 60 to 70?
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` A Let's make it 50 to 70. 10:33:06AM
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` Q 50 to 70?
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` A I can't give you precise numbers or
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`precise answers so -- on top of my head.
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` Q What percentage of that time was spent in
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`actually drafting the declarations you submitted in 10:33:21AM
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`this case?
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` A The two declarations?
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` Q Correct.
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` A A very rough estimate, we had several
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`meetings in the office and -- which lasted the whole 10:33:51AM
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`day, so ballpark number, 30 plus/minus.
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` Q 30? Did you -- did you do anything to
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`prepare for today's deposition?
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` A Excuse me?
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` Q Did you do anything to prepare for today's 10:34:17AM
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`deposition?
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` A Yes. Yes. I spent the day yesterday
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`preparing for the deposition.
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` Q Just one day?
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` A Just one day. 10:34:27AM
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` Q Would you say that's, like, seven hours? 10:34:29AM
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` A Eight.
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` Q How much time would you say that you spent
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`reviewing the '121 patent?
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` A I reviewed that patent, you know, various 10:34:55AM
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`occasions. I would say I spent minimum of 10 hours.
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` Q And for clarity of the record, do you
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`understand that when I say "the '121 patent," I'm
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`referring to U.S. Patent Number 7,296,121?
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` A Yes, I do understand that. 10:35:12AM
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` MR. RUECKHEIM: Okay.
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` (Deposition Exhibit 5 marked for
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` identification.)
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`BY MR. RUECKHEIM:
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` Q Dr. Oklobdzija, the court reporter has 10:35:34AM
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`handed you -- strike that.
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` The videographer has handed you Exhibit 5,
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`which is a document that appears to bear the Patent
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`Number 7,296,121.
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` Do you see this document? 10:35:48AM
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` A I do. I have it in front of me.
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` Q Okay.
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` So just for terminology's sake, when I
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`refer to the '121 patent today, I'm referring to the
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`document that's in Exhibit 5. 10:35:59AM
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` Does that make sense? 10:36:01AM
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` A Or '121?
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` Q Sorry?
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` A '121 would be easier. Exhibit 5, okay.
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` Q Again, for clarity, when I say "the 10:36:09AM
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`'121 patent" today I'm referring to the document in
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`Exhibit 5, if that makes sense.
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` A Yes. Thank you.
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` Q Can you please turn to Exhibit 2.
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` A Yes. 10:36:46AM
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` Q This is your amend declaration?
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` A Yes.
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` Q If you can turn to paragraph 7 in
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`Exhibit 2.
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` A Yes. 10:37:07AM
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` Q Do you see the sentence in paragraph 7
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`that says:
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` "I have also reviewed each of
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` the items of prior art cited on the
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` face of the '121 Patent"? 10:37:16AM
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` A Yes.
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` Q How much time did that review take?
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` A Would that include all the ones submitted
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`or just -- because I spent more -- okay. Would
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`that -- would that include all the references? 10:37:37AM
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` Q So I'm going to direct you to the line 10:37:45AM
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`again; it says:
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` "I have reviewed each of the
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` items of prior art cited on the
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` face of the '121 Patent." 10:37:53AM
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` A Okay. Okay. Yeah, that makes it --
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` Q So what did you mean when you said the
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`reference "cited on the face of the '121 Patent"?
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` A The references which are submitted as the
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`patent documents and the other publications. I have 10:38:07AM
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`not spent a huge amount of time on this. I have
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`glanced through them. Some of them I perhaps spend
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`more time than the others or substantially more, as
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`I can see them here. It's a huge amount, so I
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`didn't dedicate too much time. 10:38:45AM
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` Q You said you didn't dedicate that much
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`time?
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` A I didn't -- I didn't -- I mean, obviously
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`if I spend an hour on each one of them, there will
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`be many hours here, so I have reviewed that, 10:38:59AM
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`probably I spent five hours on that. Some of them
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`were relevant, some of them were not that relevant,
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`so I didn't spend time on them.
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` MR. RUECKHEIM: Can we take a quick break.
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are off the record 10:39:27AM
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`at 10:39 a.m. 10:39:28AM
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` (Brief pause in proceedings.)
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the
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`record at 10:40 a.m.
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`BY MR. RUECKHEIM: 10:40:44AM
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` Q If I can turn your attention back to
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`Exhibit 2, paragraph 7.
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` A Okay.
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` Q I'm going to direct your attention to --
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`looks like the third sentence says: 10:41:05AM
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` "I have also reviewed the
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` prior art disclosed by the Samsung
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` defendants in their answer filed in
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` Memory Integrity, LLC v. Samsung
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` Electronics Company Ltd., 10:41:16AM
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` document -- Docket Number 12,
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` District of Delaware,
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` February 24th, 2014."
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` Do you see that sentence?
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` A I see. 10:41:26AM
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` Q How much time do you estimate that you
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`spent reviewing the prior art disclosed by the
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`Samsung Defendants?
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` A Again, there is a large body of -- of
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`material that was submitted, I think, so I have 10:41:42AM
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`focused on what I found relevant, and I skipped 10:41:49AM
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`quickly over those that I didn't, so I would say
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`also a couple of hours.
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` Q So --
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` A Five. 10:42:00AM
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` Q -- five hours?
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` A Four, let's say. Four, five.
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` Q And then in the next sentence you said:
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` "I have also reviewed the
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` invalidity contentions served by 10:42:11AM
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` Intel Corporation for the '121
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` Patent in the Memory Integrity v.
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` Intel litigation."
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` A Right.
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` Q How much time did you spend reviewing that 10:42:19AM
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`prior art?
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` A That's included in those hours that I have
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`cited.
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` Q Is there any additional prior art that you
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`reviewed in order to prepare your Motion to Amend 10:42:46AM
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`declaration?
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` A It's listed in -- it should be listed in
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`the declaration, so if you look at paragraph 11,
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`there is a list of patents which were issued to
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`Mr. David Glasco. And, again, I have -- I would put 10:43:09AM
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`all of that together in those, you know, estimated 10:43:19AM
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`10 hours that I spent on the prior art, the part of
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`all of this block of references.
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` Q Is there any additional art that you
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`reviewed in order to prepare the declaration that is 10:43:31AM
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`marked as Exhibit 2?
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` A Okay. If it is, it's listed, and if you
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`allow me to go through, but I just spotted
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`Hellwagner reference, which I remember that I went
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`through the book and the particular chapter of 10:43:54AM
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`Hellwagner, paid attention to that. Everything I
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`review is listed in this declaration.
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` Q If you can turn back to page 4 in
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`Exhibit 2.
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` The first full sentence on the top of the 10:44:39AM
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`page says:
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` "I understand and am informed
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` that, together, this compromises
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` all prior art of record of the '121
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` Patent as well as all prior art to 10:44:49AM
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` the '121 Patent known to the Patent
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` Owner."
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` Do you see that sentence?
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` A I see that sentence.
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` Q What is the basis for the statement that 10:45:12AM
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`this represents all prior art known to the Patent 10:45:14AM
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`Owner?
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` A Okay. If you allow me to read -- to study
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`from 7, because this is, like, the last sentence, so
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`I don't know what is referring to. 10:45:30AM
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` Okay. So the 7 says that I have --
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`okay -- reviewed '121 patent, prior art submitted,
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`which you have asked me about, in connection with
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`the IPRs, the five of them, the materials submitted
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`by Samsung, by Intel Corporation except that I had 10:46:24AM
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`no access to confidential materials so only
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`publicly-available material. And I was informed by
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`the -- by the attorneys representing Memory
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`Integrity that this -- this is the all prior art on
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`the record of '121 patent. 10:46:54AM
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` Q For clarity, did you say that
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`Memory Integrity's attorneys informed you that the
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`prior art identified in paragraph 7 is all the prior
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`art that is known to the Patent Owner?
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` A Can you repeat the question? 10:47:29AM
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` Q Sure.
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` For clarity, did you say that
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`Memory Integrity's attorneys informed you that the
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`prior art identified in paragraph 7 is all the prior
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`art that is known to the Patent Owner? 10:47:39AM
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` A That is what I've been informed. 10:47:42AM
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` Q Okay.
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` A In other words, there's no need to go
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`further and search further for any other material.
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` Q And did you go further and search for any 10:47:56AM
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`other material beyond what's listed in --
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` A No. I had plenty to read.
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` Q Okay.
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` Did you speak with any of the inventors on
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`the '121 patent in preparing these materials? 10:48:10AM
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` A No.
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` Q So I think you were just reading from,
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`looks like, a Footnote 1 on page 4 of the Exhibit 2?
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` A Right.
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` Q And it mentions in the last sentence: 10:48:29AM
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` "I believe I have been able to
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` adequately review and understand
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` the materiality of the Intel 870
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` Chipset based on other public
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` documentation available regarding 10:48:43AM
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` that chipset."
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` A That's correct.
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` Q What is the other public documentation
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`that you're referring to?
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` A I believe they were in the body of the 10:48:57AM
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`publicly-available, let's call it, manual or a
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`publication describing Intel 870, which I have
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`reviewed. I believe there were two of them, to the
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`best of my memory. I may be wrong. But I think 10:49:15AM
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`that the essence of this paragraph 1 says that I
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`have not seen any confidential information that
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`Intel would not publicly disclose otherwise.
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` Q Just -- just so I'm clear, so paragraph 7
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`says that you have reviewed the invalidity 10:49:36AM
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`contentions served by Intel Corporation.
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` In Footnote 1, is the public documentation
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`that was included in the invalidity contentions from
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`the Intel matter, or did that come from somewhere
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`else? 10:49:52AM
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` A I can't testify to that. It's the
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`references that were submitted to me, the material
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`that was provided to me, so I think the attorneys
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`can explain it to you.
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` Q Okay. 10:50:10AM
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` So if you can turn to paragraph 8 in your
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`amend declaration. You state that:
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` "I have reviewed the art of
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` record and the prior art known to
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` the Patent Owner and it is my 10:50:36AM
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` opinion that substitute claims 26 10:50:38AM
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` through 34 are patentable over such
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` prior art..."
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` Correct?
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` A Correct. 10:50:45AM
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` Q What is the legal standard you're applying
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`for this opinion?
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` A Because, as I stated here, that I haven't
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`found in any of the reference that I review any
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`limitations of proposed in substitute claims, and no 10:51:08AM
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`combination of those references would render those
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`substitute claims obvious.
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` Q Is there anything else that you used in
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`forming this opinion?
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` MR. SAUNDERS: Objection; form. 10:51:31AM
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`BY MR. RUECKHEIM:
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` Q Let me rephrase.
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` Is there any legal standard that you used
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`in forming these opinions?
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` A Yeah, I was going to say that. Yes, there 10:51:41AM
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`are legal standards defining the obviousness and
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`defining -- how you define the combinations, et
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`cetera.
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` Q So what is the legal standard that you
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`used for defining obviousness to support your 10:51:58AM
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`opinion? 10:52:02AM
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` MR. SAUNDERS: Objection; form,
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`foundation.
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` THE WITNESS: Okay. I believe they are
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`in -- in one of my declarations, and I see some 10:52:11AM
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`not -- I mean, I don't want to quote them out of my
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`memory and say something which is incorrect. If I
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`can look for them and I'll --
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`BY MR. RUECKHEIM:
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` Q Please do. 10:52:29AM
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` A -- cite it for you.
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` Q And if it will help, I'm going to
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`represent to you that I did not see a legal standard
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`disclosed in either of your declarations. But
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`please, take a look because I'm -- 10:52:43AM
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` A Okay. Okay. If it is not in my -- in my
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`declaration, so I cannot, you know, re
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