·1· · · · · · · · · · HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`·2· · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`· · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`·3
`
`·4· ·CASE NO.: IPR 2015-00089 & 2015-00092
`
`·5· ·PATENT NO.: 6,546,002 B1
`
`·6
`
`·7· ·INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS MACHINES· ·)
`· · ·CORPORATION,· · · · · · · · · · · )
`·8· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · Petitioner,· · · · · · · )
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · ·against· · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`10· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · ·INTELLECTUAL VENTURES II, LLC,· · )
`11· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · Patent Owner.· · · · · · )
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15· · · · · · · · ·Videotaped Deposition of
`
`16· ·HENRY LIEBERMAN, taken before JANYCE W. BOOTH,
`
`17· ·CSR, RMR, CRR, pursuant to the Federal Rules of
`
`18· ·Civil Procedure for the United States Patent and
`
`19· ·Trademark Office pertaining to the taking of
`
`20· ·depositions, at 300 North LaSalle Street, Chicago,
`
`21· ·Illinois, commencing at 9:12 a.m. on the 8th day
`
`22· ·of July, A.D., 2015.
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`
`
`·2· · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`· · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`·3
`
`·4· ·CASE NO.: IPR 2015-00089 & 2015-00092
`
`·5· ·PATENT NO.: 6,546,002 B1
`
`·6
`
`·7· ·INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS MACHINES· ·)
`· · ·CORPORATION,· · · · · · · · · · · )
`·8· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · Petitioner,· · · · · · · )
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · ·against· · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`10· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · ·INTELLECTUAL VENTURES II, LLC,· · )
`11· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · Patent Owner.· · · · · · )
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15· · · · · · · · ·Videotaped Deposition of
`
`16· ·HENRY LIEBERMAN, taken before JANYCE W. BOOTH,
`
`17· ·CSR, RMR, CRR, pursuant to the Federal Rules of
`
`18· ·Civil Procedure for the United States Patent and
`
`19· ·Trademark Office pertaining to the taking of
`
`20· ·depositions, at 300 North LaSalle Street, Chicago,
`
`21· ·Illinois, commencing at 9:12 a.m. on the 8th day
`
`22· ·of July, A.D., 2015.
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`·2· · · · · · There were present at the taking of this
`
`·3· ·deposition the following counsel:
`
`·4
`
`·5· · · ·KIRKLAND & ELLIS by
`· · · · ·MR. JOEL MERKIN
`·6· · · ·MR. JAY EMERICK
`· · · · ·300 North LaSalle Street
`·7· · · ·Chicago, Illinois 60654
`· · · · ·312.862-2048
`·8· · · ·joel.merkin@kirkland.com
`
`·9· · · · · · on behalf of the Petitioner;
`
`10
`
`11· · · ·STERNE, KESSLER, GOLDSTEIN· & FOX, P.L.L.C. by
`· · · · ·MR. BYRON L. PICKARD
`12· · · ·1100 New York Avenue, NW
`· · · · ·Washington, D.C.· 20005
`13· · · ·202.371.2600
`· · · · ·bpickard@skgf.com
`14
`· · · · · · · on behalf of the Patent Owner.
`15
`
`16· ·ALSO PRESENT:
`
`17· · · ·Mr.· Steve Pappas, Sterne Kessler
`
`18· · · ·Ms. Katie Rhoades, Kirkland & Ellis
`
`19· · · ·Walter Cwik, Certified Legal Video Specialist
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`·2· · · · · · · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF
`
`·3· · · · · · · · · · HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`·4· · · · · · · · · · ·July 8, 2015
`
`·5
`
`·6· ·EXAMINATION· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
`
`·7· · ·Cross By MR. PICKARD· · · · · · · · · · ·5
`
`·8· · ·Redirect By MR. MERKIN· · · · · · · · ·123
`
`·9· · ·Recross by MR. PICKARD· · · · · · · · ·126
`
`10· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·E X H I B I T S
`
`11· ·IBM· · · · · · · · DESCRIPTION· · · · · ·PAGE
`
`12· ·Exhibit 1001-1· Declaration of Henry· · · · ·8
`
`13· · · · · · · · · ·Lieberman
`
`14· ·Exhibit Lieberman 1 Petition for IPR· · · · 57
`
`15· ·Exhibit 1001-2· Declaration of Henry· · · · 81
`
`16· · · · · · · · · ·Lieberman
`
`17· ·Exhibit 1012· · U.S. Patent 5,473,692· · · ·95
`
`18· ·Exhibit 1008· · Murray article· · · · · · ·106
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`·2· · · · THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· Here begins Disk No. 1
`
`·3· ·in the videotaped deposition of Henry
`
`·4· ·Lieberman, in the matter of International
`
`·5· ·Business Machines Corporation versus
`
`·6· ·Intellectual Ventures II, LLC, in the United
`
`·7· ·States Patent and Trademark Office before the
`
`·8· ·Patent Trial and Appeal Board, Case Number
`
`·9· ·IPR 2015-00089 and 2015-0092.
`
`10· · · · This deposition is being held at 300
`
`11· ·North LaSalle, Chicago, Illinois, on July 8,
`
`12· ·2015, at approximately 9:12.
`
`13· · · · My name is Walter Cwik, and I'm the
`
`14· ·certified legal video specialist in
`
`15· ·association with DTI.· The court reporter
`
`16· ·today is Janyce Booth in association with DTI.
`
`17· · · · Will counsel please introduce themselves
`
`18· ·for the record.
`
`19· · · · MR. PICKARD:· Byron Pickard from Sterne
`
`20· ·Kessler Goldstein Fox on behalf of the Patent
`
`21· ·Owner.· With me from Sterne Kessler as well is
`
`22· ·Steven Pappas, and on the telephone is
`
`23· ·in-house counsel for Intellectual Ventures,
`
`24· ·Don Coulman.
`
`25· · · · MR. MERKIN:· Joel Merkin of Kirkland &
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`·2· · · ·Ellis, LLP, on behalf of Petitioner, IBM.
`
`·3· · · ·With me also from Kirkland & Ellis is Jay
`
`·4· · · ·Emerick also on behalf of IBM.· Also note for
`
`·5· · · ·the record that with us in the room observing
`
`·6· · · ·is Katie Rhoades, summer associate.
`
`·7· · · · · · THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· Will the court
`
`·8· · · ·reporter please swear in the witness.
`
`·9· · · · · · · · ·(WHEREUPON, the witness was duly
`
`10· · · · · · · · ·sworn.)
`
`11· · · · · · · · ·HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`12· ·called as a witness herein, having been first duly
`
`13· ·sworn, was examined upon oral interrogatories and
`
`14· ·testified as follows:
`
`15· · · · · · · · ·CROSS EXAMINATION
`
`16· · · · · · · · ·BY MR. PICKARD:
`
`17· · · ·Q· · All right.· Good morning, Doctor.· How
`
`18· ·are you?
`
`19· · · ·A· · Good morning.
`
`20· · · ·Q· · Have you ever been deposed before?
`
`21· · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`22· · · ·Q· · Okay.· I'll just go over a few ground
`
`23· ·rules then that may already be familiar to you.
`
`24· · · · · · Janyce here is going transcribe
`
`25· ·everything that we say today, so it's important
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`·2· ·that we try not to talk over each other.· So
`
`·3· ·please let me finish my question before you give
`
`·4· ·your answer.
`
`·5· · · · · · Mr. Merkin may from time to time object
`
`·6· ·to my questions.· You should give him room to do
`
`·7· ·so.· But unless he instructs you not to answer,
`
`·8· ·you'll need to answer the question anyway.· Do you
`
`·9· ·understand that?
`
`10· · · ·A· · Mm-hmm.
`
`11· · · ·Q· · Okay.· I think the most important rule is
`
`12· ·if you don't understand a question I've asked you,
`
`13· ·I'd like you to let me know that so that we can
`
`14· ·rephrase it.· Does that sound like something we'll
`
`15· ·do today?
`
`16· · · ·A· · Mm-hmm.
`
`17· · · ·Q· · Can you agree to that?
`
`18· · · ·A· · Okay.
`
`19· · · ·Q· · All right.· What did you do if anything
`
`20· ·to prepare for your testimony today?
`
`21· · · ·A· · I read materials.· I had conversations
`
`22· ·with my attorneys.
`
`23· · · ·Q· · Okay.· What materials did you read?
`
`24· · · ·A· · I read the declaration that I made to the
`
`25· ·Court.· I read the references.· I read the patent.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`·2· · · ·Q· · Did you read the petition that was filed
`
`·3· ·in this case?
`
`·4· · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`·5· · · ·Q· · Okay.· And in fact you have two
`
`·6· ·declarations in these cases --
`
`·7· · · ·A· · Right --
`
`·8· · · ·Q· · -- that's right?· Okay.
`
`·9· · · ·A· · -- covering the different --
`
`10· · · ·Q· · Did -- in reviewing those materials, do
`
`11· ·you still believe that your declaration is
`
`12· ·accurate and truthful?
`
`13· · · ·A· · Yes, I do.
`
`14· · · ·Q· · Okay.· And that's for both declarations?
`
`15· · · ·A· · That's right.· Yes.
`
`16· · · ·Q· · Is there anything that you need to
`
`17· ·correct in your declarations?
`
`18· · · ·A· · No.
`
`19· · · ·Q· · Okay.· I will go ahead, and I'll show you
`
`20· ·the declaration from what I call case 1.· It's
`
`21· ·the -- 009 -- 00089 case.
`
`22· · · · · · Janyce, let's go ahead and mark this.
`
`23· ·There are -- because there's two, 1000 exhibits
`
`24· ·and they're different, I'm going to call this
`
`25· ·1001-1.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`·2· · · · · · I've got copies for you.
`
`·3· · · · · · Why don't you mark that IBM 1001-1.
`
`·4· · · · · · · · ·(WHEREUPON Exhibit 1001-1 was marked
`
`·5· · · · · · · · ·for identification)
`
`·6· ·BY MR. PICKARD
`
`·7· · · ·Q· · Okay.· Doctor, you should have IBM 1001-1
`
`·8· ·in front of you.· Take a second to look at that.
`
`·9· · · · · · · · ·(Pause)
`
`10· · · · · · Okay.· And that's the declaration that
`
`11· ·you signed in the 00089 IPR; is that right?
`
`12· · · ·A· · That's right.· That covers Claims 1
`
`13· ·through 25.
`
`14· · · ·Q· · Right.
`
`15· · · · · · And you understand that --
`
`16· · · ·A· · 24.
`
`17· · · ·Q· · -- the Board has instituted a trial as to
`
`18· ·those claims concerning two primary references,
`
`19· ·Richardson and Murray?
`
`20· · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`21· · · ·Q· · Okay.· And you've provided opinions as to
`
`22· ·Richardson and Murray; is that right?
`
`23· · · ·A· · It's part of my declaration, yes.
`
`24· · · ·Q· · Okay.· Let's talk a little bit about
`
`25· ·Richardson.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`·2· · · · · · How would you broadly describe what
`
`·3· ·Richardson discloses?· What is the Richardson
`
`·4· ·system, if you will?
`
`·5· · · · · · MR. MERKIN:· Objection.· Form.
`
`·6· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· One moment.· Let me find
`
`·7· · · ·the place.
`
`·8· · · · · · · · ·(Pause)
`
`·9· · · · · · Okay.· So the article by Richardson talks
`
`10· ·about VNC system, virtual network computing.· And
`
`11· ·the idea of the system is it allows a user to
`
`12· ·remotely access the desktop environment on a
`
`13· ·computer from some different computer, different
`
`14· ·machine.
`
`15· · · · · · So you have a VNC server and a VNC
`
`16· ·client.· And so it allows you to access the
`
`17· ·desktop environment from the VNC client, and the
`
`18· ·client may be any one of a number of different
`
`19· ·machines, and you can log in to any one of those
`
`20· ·different machines.· They might be in different
`
`21· ·locations or different kinds of machines running
`
`22· ·slightly different operating systems.· And the
`
`23· ·user desktop appears the same on all machines.
`
`24· ·BY MR. PICKARD
`
`25· · · ·Q· · Okay.· And Claims 1 through 25 of the
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`·2· ·'002 patent, they all recite a mobile interface;
`
`·3· ·is that right?
`
`·4· · · · · · If you need the patent, we can -- I can
`
`·5· ·put that in front of you.· I'm not trying to give
`
`·6· ·you a memory test.
`
`·7· · · ·A· · Yes.· That's the main subject of the
`
`·8· ·patent, yes.
`
`·9· · · ·Q· · And you've referred to the desktop
`
`10· ·environment and user desktop.· Are either of those
`
`11· ·what you equate to the claimed mobile interface?
`
`12· · · ·A· · Yes.· The mobile interface is desktop
`
`13· ·environment.
`
`14· · · ·Q· · Richardson's desktop environment is the
`
`15· ·claimed mobile interface; is that right?
`
`16· · · ·A· · The desktop environment that the user
`
`17· ·sees, regardless of what machine they're on,
`
`18· ·that's the mobile interface.
`
`19· · · ·Q· · Okay.· And you mentioned there's a VNC
`
`20· ·server.· Does it host or restore the desktop
`
`21· ·environment that you referred to in Richardson?
`
`22· · · · · · MR. MERKIN:· Objection.· Form.
`
`23· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Please repeat the question.
`
`24· · · · · · MR. PICKARD:· Yeah.
`
`25
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`·2· ·BY MR. PICKARD
`
`·3· · · ·Q· · You mentioned in the Richardson VNC
`
`·4· ·system there's a VNC server.· Does it store or
`
`·5· ·host the desktop environment that you're equating
`
`·6· ·to the mobile interface?
`
`·7· · · · · · MR. MERKIN:· Objection.· Form.
`
`·8· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· The desktop environment is
`
`·9· · · ·transmitted as pixels from the VNC server to
`
`10· · · ·the VNC client.
`
`11· ·BY MR. PICKARD
`
`12· · · ·Q· · Okay.· And other than pixels, does the
`
`13· ·server transmit any other information about the
`
`14· ·desktop environment to the VNC client?
`
`15· · · ·A· · I don't know what other information might
`
`16· ·be transmitted.
`
`17· · · ·Q· · Does Richardson disclose whether the
`
`18· ·server transmits any information other than pixels
`
`19· ·to the VNC client?
`
`20· · · ·A· · I'd have to look at the articles --
`
`21· · · ·Q· · Okay.· Let's go ahead --
`
`22· · · ·A· · -- to see if that's the case.
`
`23· · · ·Q· · Did you bring your own documents?
`
`24· · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`25· · · ·Q· · Okay.· Great.· I've got copies in case
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`·2· ·you can't find it.
`
`·3· · · · · · Let's take a look at what's been
`
`·4· ·designated IBM 1006 in the two cases.· That's the
`
`·5· ·Richardson reference.
`
`·6· · · · · · MR. MERKIN:· Counsel, do you want to mark
`
`·7· · · ·this as an exhibit just for clarity?
`
`·8· · · · · · MR. PICKARD:· I generally don't because
`
`·9· · · ·the record is pretty clear across the
`
`10· · · ·pleadings and -- 1006 is the same in both
`
`11· · · ·cases.
`
`12· · · · · · MR. MERKIN:· Got it.· Okay.· So we're
`
`13· · · ·both referring to IBM Exhibit 1006.
`
`14· · · · · · MR. PICKARD:· Yeah.· So I think the
`
`15· · · ·record will be clear.· The only exhibit that
`
`16· · · ·has some ambiguity will be his declaration
`
`17· · · ·because it's 1001 in both cases and it's
`
`18· · · ·obviously different.· Otherwise you guys could
`
`19· · · ·have kept the exhibit numbers the same.
`
`20· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Okay.· I would say that,
`
`21· · · ·yes, there is information other than the
`
`22· · · ·pixels that is transmitted.· So, for example,
`
`23· · · ·it says, "To establish a client-server
`
`24· · · ·connection, the server first requests
`
`25· · · ·authentication from the client using a
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`·2· · · ·challenge-response scheme" --
`
`·3· ·BY MR. PICKARD
`
`·4· · · ·Q· · Okay.· If you could slow down for a
`
`·5· ·second --
`
`·6· · · ·A· · Oh, I'm sorry.
`
`·7· · · ·Q· · -- and just let me know what you're
`
`·8· ·looking at.
`
`·9· · · ·A· · Okay.· Page 3 of 6 --
`
`10· · · ·Q· · Okay.
`
`11· · · ·A· · -- at the second column, the bottom.
`
`12· · · ·Q· · That's under the heading --
`
`13· · · ·A· · "Connection Setup and Shutdown."
`
`14· · · ·Q· · All right.
`
`15· · · ·A· · Okay.· So it says, "To establish a
`
`16· ·client-server connection, the server first
`
`17· ·requests authentication from the client using a
`
`18· ·challenge-response scheme."
`
`19· · · ·Q· · Okay.
`
`20· · · ·A· · So in that case, that would be a
`
`21· ·transmission that wasn't pixels that would occur
`
`22· ·between the client and the server.
`
`23· · · ·Q· · All right.· And that transmission, that's
`
`24· ·part of the initial setup so the client --
`
`25· · · ·A· · That's what it says.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`·2· · · ·Q· · -- and the VNC server may communicate
`
`·3· ·with one another; is that right?
`
`·4· · · · · · MR. MERKIN:· Object.· Form.
`
`·5· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Please repeat the question.
`
`·6· · · ·I'm sorry.
`
`·7· · · · · · THE COURT REPORTER:· And I will need you
`
`·8· · · ·not to talk at the same time.
`
`·9· · · · · · MR. PICKARD:· I apologize.
`
`10· ·BY MR. PICKARD
`
`11· · · ·Q· · The part of the reference you just read,
`
`12· ·the challenge-response scheme, that is part of the
`
`13· ·initial setup between the VNC client and the VNC
`
`14· ·server in Richardson; is that right?
`
`15· · · ·A· · That's right --
`
`16· · · · · · MR. MERKIN:· Objection.· Form.
`
`17· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· That's right.
`
`18· ·BY MR. PICKARD
`
`19· · · ·Q· · And that scheme, which Richardson calls a
`
`20· ·scheme, does that -- is there any transmission of
`
`21· ·information about the desktop environment from the
`
`22· ·server to the VNC client?
`
`23· · · ·A· · That's prior to the desktop interaction
`
`24· ·it appears.
`
`25· · · ·Q· · So the transmission of the pixels from
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`·2· ·the server to the client occur after that
`
`·3· ·authentication scheme is run; is that right?
`
`·4· · · ·A· · That's --
`
`·5· · · · · · MR. MERKIN:· Object.· Form.
`
`·6· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· That's what I would expect,
`
`·7· · · ·yes.
`
`·8· ·BY MR. PICKARD
`
`·9· · · ·Q· · Okay.· Any other portions of Richardson
`
`10· ·that you believe describe the transmission of
`
`11· ·information from the server to the client other
`
`12· ·than pixels?
`
`13· · · ·A· · Okay.· On Page 4.
`
`14· · · ·Q· · I'm with you --
`
`15· · · ·A· · -- the second to last paragraph, it says,
`
`16· ·"We have also created 'thin' servers which produce
`
`17· ·displays other than desktops using a simple
`
`18· ·toolkit.· A VNC CD player, for example, generates
`
`19· ·a CD player user interface using VNC directly
`
`20· ·without any reference to a windowing system or
`
`21· ·frame buffer.· Such servers can be run on simple
`
`22· ·hardware and can be accessed from any of the
`
`23· ·standard VNC users -- viewers rather."
`
`24· · · ·Q· · Okay.· And why did you read that passage?
`
`25· · · · · · MR. MERKIN:· Objection.· Form.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`·2· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· The question that you asked
`
`·3· · · ·me was whether any information was transmitted
`
`·4· · · ·other than frame buffers, other than the
`
`·5· · · ·pixels and the frame buffer.· And so this says
`
`·6· · · ·here using VNC directly without any reference
`
`·7· · · ·to a window system or frame buffer.
`
`·8· ·BY MR. PICKARD
`
`·9· · · ·Q· · Okay.· And what's transmitted in -- what
`
`10· ·is that -- sorry.
`
`11· · · · · · The portion of Richardson that you just
`
`12· ·read, what does Richardson's server transmit to
`
`13· ·the client exactly?
`
`14· · · ·A· · It doesn't say in the article, but I
`
`15· ·would assume information about the controls of the
`
`16· ·CD player.
`
`17· · · ·Q· · Okay.· Now, I think you started out
`
`18· ·saying that the server of Richardson transmits
`
`19· ·pixels to the client, the VNC client, and then you
`
`20· ·just introduced the frame buffer.· Are those the
`
`21· ·same thing, the frame buffer and pixels?
`
`22· · · ·A· · Frame buffer refers to the entire memory
`
`23· ·in which the image of the screen is stored. A
`
`24· ·pixel refers to a single dot or single visible
`
`25· ·element --
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`·2· · · ·Q· · Okay.
`
`·3· · · ·A· · -- that has a -- produces light in a
`
`·4· ·certain color.
`
`·5· · · ·Q· · All right.· So is the -- the frame buffer
`
`·6· ·is the collection of the data that is comprised of
`
`·7· ·individual pixels?
`
`·8· · · ·A· · That's correct.
`
`·9· · · ·Q· · And the VNC client receives that frame
`
`10· ·buffer and can recreate essentially a screenshot
`
`11· ·of the desktop environment.· Is that how it works?
`
`12· · · · · · MR. MERKIN:· Objection.· Form.
`
`13· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yes.
`
`14· ·BY MR. PICKARD
`
`15· · · ·Q· · Okay.· Let's step back a bit.
`
`16· · · · · · The desktop environment that you referred
`
`17· ·to, that is stored on the VNC server; is that
`
`18· ·right?
`
`19· · · ·A· · I believe so.
`
`20· · · ·Q· · Okay.
`
`21· · · ·A· · I'd have to look through where it says
`
`22· ·explicitly that's the case.
`
`23· · · ·Q· · All right.· Why don't you -- why don't
`
`24· ·you go ahead and do that if you have any
`
`25· ·uncertainty about it.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`·2· · · · · · · · ·(Pause)
`
`·3· · · ·A· · Please repeat the question.
`
`·4· · · ·Q· · Sure.
`
`·5· · · · · · The Richardson's desktop environment,
`
`·6· ·which we've established is equivalent to the
`
`·7· ·claimed mobile interface of the '002 patent, my
`
`·8· ·question is that stored on the VNC server of
`
`·9· ·Richardson?
`
`10· · · · · · MR. MERKIN:· Objection.· Form.
`
`11· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I believe it is.· I can't
`
`12· · · ·find a clear passage that exactly states that,
`
`13· · · ·but it talks about "a set of rectangles of
`
`14· · · ·pixel data makes a frame buffer update or
`
`15· · · ·simply update."· This is on the second column
`
`16· · · ·of Page 3 under "Adaptive Update."
`
`17· · · · · · "The update protocol is demand driven by
`
`18· · · ·the client.· An update is only sent by the
`
`19· · · ·server in response to an explicit request from
`
`20· · · ·the client.· All screen changes since the
`
`21· · · ·client's last request are coalesced into a
`
`22· · · ·single update."
`
`23· · · ·Q· · Okay.· Go ahead and take a look back at
`
`24· ·your declaration, which is Exhibit IBM 1001-1,
`
`25· ·Paragraph 70, which is on Page 25.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`·2· · · ·A· · Okay.
`
`·3· · · ·Q· · And in Paragraph 70, you've given the
`
`·4· ·opinion that the desktop environment is retrieved
`
`·5· ·from the server to the VNC viewer client; is that
`
`·6· ·right?
`
`·7· · · ·A· · That's correct.
`
`·8· · · ·Q· · Does that refresh your recollection
`
`·9· ·whether you believe Richardson stores the client
`
`10· ·on the VNC server -- stores the desktop
`
`11· ·environment on the VNC server?
`
`12· · · ·A· · That's right.· Richardson stores the
`
`13· ·entire desktop environment from the VNC server to
`
`14· ·the VNC client.
`
`15· · · ·Q· · Okay.· And the Richardson desktop
`
`16· ·environment, what does that consist of, when it's
`
`17· ·on the server?
`
`18· · · · · · MR. MERKIN:· Objection.· Form.
`
`19· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yeah.· Could you rephrase
`
`20· · · ·that question?
`
`21· ·BY MR. PICKARD
`
`22· · · ·Q· · So we've established that the desktop
`
`23· ·environment is stored on Richardson's VNC server;
`
`24· ·correct?
`
`25· · · ·A· · The desktop -- the desktop environment is
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`·2· ·stored in the form of pixels on the server, yes.
`
`·3· · · ·Q· · Okay.· Does the server -- other than
`
`·4· ·pixels about the desktop environment, does the
`
`·5· ·server have any other information about the
`
`·6· ·desktop environment?
`
`·7· · · · · · MR. MERKIN:· Objection.· Form.
`
`·8· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· It may well have additional
`
`·9· · · ·information that's not -- it may well have
`
`10· · · ·additional information.· It's not set
`
`11· · · ·explicitly.
`
`12· ·BY MR. PICKARD
`
`13· · · ·Q· · Okay.· Is the desktop environment of
`
`14· ·Richardson, is it stored anywhere other than the
`
`15· ·server?
`
`16· · · ·A· · Well, it might be also stored on the user
`
`17· ·machine -- user's client machine.
`
`18· · · ·Q· · Okay.
`
`19· · · ·A· · So the -- go ahead.
`
`20· · · ·Q· · No.· You -- I think I've interrupted.
`
`21· ·I'm sorry.
`
`22· · · ·A· · Well, the -- when the desktop environment
`
`23· ·is shown on the user's screen, it may be the case
`
`24· ·that there is a copy of it that is also on the VNC
`
`25· ·viewer, and the copy on the VNC client and the VNC
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`·2· ·viewer are kept in sync.
`
`·3· · · ·Q· · Okay.· So we've got -- I just want to
`
`·4· ·make sure we're straight.
`
`·5· · · · · · The mobile interface, the desktop
`
`·6· ·environment can exist on the user desktop, which
`
`·7· ·is essentially, I guess, the native or original
`
`·8· ·computer that had this environment; is that right?
`
`·9· ·It can be on the server which would store that
`
`10· ·environment in the form of pixels; correct?
`
`11· · · · · · MR. MERKIN:· Objection.· Form.
`
`12· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· The -- from the user's
`
`13· · · ·point of view, they just see a single desktop
`
`14· · · ·environment.· Everything that they expect to
`
`15· · · ·be on the desktop environment is there.· Okay.
`
`16· · · · · · It can be stored on the server.· It may
`
`17· · · ·or may not be stored on the client.· Okay.
`
`18· · · · · · The Richardson article talks about the
`
`19· · · ·VNC protocol which is the communication
`
`20· · · ·between the client and the server.· Okay.
`
`21· · · · · · As far as the user's concerned, it's just
`
`22· · · ·a single desktop environment.· They can't tell
`
`23· · · ·where it is.
`
`24· ·BY MR. PICKARD
`
`25· · · ·Q· · Okay.· So let's talk about the user
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`·2· ·experience then.· If the user is at the VNC
`
`·3· ·client, and the VNC viewer is displaying the
`
`·4· ·desktop environment, you're testifying that the
`
`·5· ·user would see the desktop environment and not
`
`·6· ·appreciate that it was just pixel data; is that
`
`·7· ·right?
`
`·8· · · ·A· · From the user's point of view, they
`
`·9· ·couldn't tell.
`
`10· · · ·Q· · Okay.· And the server, the VNC server of
`
`11· ·Richardson, just stores the pixel data of the
`
`12· ·desktop environment; correct?
`
`13· · · ·A· · That's an implementation decision that's
`
`14· ·made by the VNC system.
`
`15· · · ·Q· · Okay.· And the underlying user desktop,
`
`16· ·that also has the desktop environment; right?
`
`17· · · · · · MR. MERKIN:· Objection.· Form.
`
`18· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Please rephrase the
`
`19· · · ·question.
`
`20· ·BY MR. PICKARD
`
`21· · · ·Q· · The user computer it also has the desktop
`
`22· ·environment of Richardson; is that right?
`
`23· · · ·A· · The user sees the desktop environment,
`
`24· ·which would appear exactly on -- if they see it on
`
`25· ·various VNC viewers, it looks exactly the same
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`·2· ·because it's being communicated from the server.
`
`·3· · · ·Q· · Let's focus on the desk -- the desktop
`
`·4· ·environment as it would reside on the user's
`
`·5· ·computer, not on the VNC client.· And just -- I
`
`·6· ·think an example would be helpful for me to
`
`·7· ·understand how it works.
`
`·8· · · · · · You've got a Window, say, 95 desktop
`
`·9· ·environment, and there's an icon for, say, a Word
`
`10· ·file called Lieberman CV.· If I'm on the desktop
`
`11· ·environment, if I click on that Lieberman CV Word
`
`12· ·file, what would happen?
`
`13· · · · · · MR. MERKIN:· Objection.· Form.
`
`14· · · ·Foundation.
`
`15· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Well, so are you talking
`
`16· · · ·about after loading the VNC program, after
`
`17· · · ·launching the VNC program?
`
`18· · · · · · So if you were on a computer and you have
`
`19· · · ·a file -- without using the VNC program, if
`
`20· · · ·you were on a Windows 95 computer, and you
`
`21· · · ·hadn't launched the VNC program, and you had a
`
`22· · · ·file name Lieberman CV, that would be
`
`23· · · ·referring to the local file.
`
`24· ·BY MR. PICKARD
`
`25· · · ·Q· · Okay.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`·2· · · ·A· · If you -- if you launch the VNC program,
`
`·3· ·then you get a desktop that if you had -- that
`
`·4· ·represents the shared desktop.
`
`·5· · · ·Q· · Okay.· I just --
`
`·6· · · ·A· · So if you have -- if you have the
`
`·7· ·Lieberman CV on that, then if you click that, then
`
`·8· ·you get that file.· You look at that file.
`
`·9· · · ·Q· · All right.· Let's take a -- we'll break
`
`10· ·it up, and we'll handle both cases.
`
`11· · · · · · As I understand it, you can have in the
`
`12· ·Richardson system two and perhaps three computers.
`
`13· ·You would have a computer that has the VNC viewer.
`
`14· ·We're calling that the VNC client; correct?
`
`15· · · ·A· · Right.
`
`16· · · ·Q· · You've got Richardson's VNC server;
`
`17· ·correct?
`
`18· · · ·A· · Right.
`
`19· · · ·Q· · All right.· And each of those stores the
`
`20· ·pixels of the desktop environment.
`
`21· · · · · · And there could be a third computer that
`
`22· ·has, say-- which we will call the user computer or
`
`23· ·user desktop.· Which would be more accurate?
`
`24· · · ·A· · Or --
`
`25· · · ·Q· · Or maybe there's a better term that you
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`·2· ·can come up with?
`
`·3· · · · · · MR. MERKIN:· Objection.· Form.
`
`·4· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Well, that's -- that's
`
`·5· · · ·confusing terminology.· So let's say the
`
`·6· · · ·user's home computer.
`
`·7· ·BY MR. PICKARD
`
`·8· · · ·Q· · That would be the good.· Let's call it
`
`·9· ·the home computer.
`
`10· · · ·A· · The home computer.
`
`11· · · ·Q· · You have this third computer, the home
`
`12· ·computer.
`
`13· · · ·A· · Right, right.· And then we can say a
`
`14· ·remote computer or a computer that's not your home
`
`15· ·computer.
`
`16· · · ·Q· · I got it.· Remote computer would be the
`
`17· ·one with the VNC viewer.
`
`18· · · ·A· · Right.
`
`19· · · ·Q· · All right.· So if I understand
`
`20· ·Richardson -- tell me if this is wrong -- the --
`
`21· ·essentially the home computer, that's where this
`
`22· ·desktop environment originally resides, and then
`
`23· ·it gets displayed at the VNC client in a way
`
`24· ·that's completely transparent to the user.· The
`
`25· ·user can't tell that there's a difference in the
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`·2· ·two setups; is that right?
`
`·3· · · ·A· · Yes.· There are two cases, one in which
`
`·4· ·the files are on your home computer.· Okay.· And
`
`·5· ·it's also very common to have the files on some
`
`·6· ·sort of server that's accessible both from your
`
`·7· ·home computer and perhaps remotely.
`
`·8· · · ·Q· · Okay.· So let's take the example you're
`
`·9· ·on your home computer.· You have a Word file
`
`10· ·called Lieberman CV.· It's stored on the same
`
`11· ·server that the VNC server is hosted on.· And on
`
`12· ·your desktop environment, you see an icon for the
`
`13· ·Lieberman CV file.
`
`14· · · · · · When you click that file, what -- what
`
`15· ·would happen at your home computer?
`
`16· · · ·A· · You would open that file and see the text
`
`17· ·of that file.
`
`18· · · ·Q· · Okay.· Does that desktop environment use
`
`19· ·a pointer when it clicks the icon to retrieve the
`
`20· ·Word file from the server?
`
`21· · · · · · MR. MERKIN:· Objection.· Form.
`
`22· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· The icon is a pointer to
`
`23· · · ·that file.
`
`24· ·BY MR. PICKARD
`
`25· · · ·Q· · Okay.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`·2· · · ·A· · So click on that icon.· You would be
`
`·3· ·using a pointer on that file.
`
`·4· · · ·Q· · On the home computer, the desktop
`
`·5· ·environment on the home computer, that Microsoft
`
`·6· ·Word icon, does it have any other information
`
`·7· ·besides pixels?
`
`·8· · · ·A· · Say that again.
`
`·9· · · ·Q· · On the home computer, the desktop
`
`10· ·environment, if you were to see that Word icon for
`
`11· ·the Lieberman CV we've used in our example, does
`
`12· ·it have any other information associated with it
`
`13· ·other than the pixels?
`
`14· · · · · · MR. MERKIN:· Objection.· Foundation.
`
`15· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· The -- there is information
`
`16· · · ·associated with that.· There's the file
`
`17· · · ·associated with it, if that's what you mean.
`
`18· ·BY MR. PICKARD
`
`19· · · ·Q· · There is a file associated with it, and
`
`20· ·there's a -- is there also a pointer associated
`
`21· ·with it that would tell the home computer where to
`
`22· ·retrieve that file from?
`
`23· · · · · · MR. MERKIN:· Objection.· Form.
`
`24· · · ·Foundation.
`
`25· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· The construction of the
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`·2· · · ·word "pointer" in this case -- let me get to
`
`·3· · · ·that -- is link or shortcut.· I believe the
`
`·4· · · ·Court accepted that construction.· Link or
`
`·5· · · ·shortcut to an item was the Court
`
`·6· · · ·construction.· Link or shortcut to an item I
`
`·7· · · ·believe was the Court construction of the word
`
`·8· · · ·"pointer."
`
`·9· · · ·Q· · Okay.
`
`10· · · ·A· · Okay.· So the icon for Lieberman CV, that
`
`11· ·would be a link or shortcut to an item.
`
`12· · · ·Q· · Okay.
`
`13· · · ·A· · So it would be a pointer.
`
`14· · · ·Q· · All right.· Now, let's take the example
`
`15· ·of you're on the -- what did you call it? -- the
`
`16· ·away -- you have your home computer and the --
`
`17· · · ·A· · Say remote --
`
`18· · · ·Q· · Remote computer, which has the VNC
`
`19· ·viewer.
`
`20· · · ·A· · Yeah.
`
`21· · · ·Q· · The VNC client, the home computer does
`
`22· ·its authentication with the VNC server, and the
`
`23· ·desktop environment is displayed on the VNC client
`
`24· ·viewer on that computer.
`
`25· · · ·A· · On the remote computer.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`·2· · · ·Q· · On the remote computer.
`
`·3· · · ·A· · Right.
`
`·4· · · ·Q· · That just includes pixels, I believe you
`
`·5· ·said, from the frame buffer; is that right?
`
`·6· · · ·A· · According to the VNC protocol, the VNC
`
`·7· ·protocol tries to keep the frame buffer that you
`
`·8· ·see on your remote computer in sync with the frame
`
`·9· ·buffer that it stores.
`
`10· · · ·Q· · Okay.· So if you're in the VNC client
`
`11· ·viewer on the remote computer and you click on
`
`12· ·that, you would see that --
`
`13· · · ·A· · You would see --
`
`14· · · ·Q· · -- Lieberman CV word file again.· You
`
`15· ·click on it.· What happens in that instance?
`
`16· · · ·A· · You would -- Microsoft would open up.
`
`17· ·You would see the text of that file, of that
`
`18· ·Lieberman CV file.
`
`19· · · ·Q· · In that instance, where is the Microsoft
`
`20· ·Word application running?
`
`21· · · · · · MR. MERKIN:· Objection.· Form.
`
`22· · · ·Foundation.
`
`23· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· The -- Richardson doesn't
`
`24· · · ·say, but -- it's not specified.· So it could
`
`25· · · ·be on the VNC server.· It's possible for it to
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`·2· · · ·be elsewhere.
`
`·3· ·BY MR. PICKARD
`
`·4· · · ·Q· · Where else could it be?
`
`·5· · · ·A· · It could be running on -- the VNC server
`
`·6· ·and your home computer don't necessarily have to
`
`·7· ·be the same machine.· There could be some
`
`·8· ·communication between them.· But that is not
`
`·9· ·covered by the Richardson -- that situation is not
`
`10· ·covered by the Richardson article.
`
`11· · · ·Q· · Okay.· In Richardson does the VNC client
`
`12· ·on the remote computer, does it run the Microsoft
`
`13· ·Word application itself when the Lieberman CV
`
`14· ·file, for instance, is pulled up?
`
`15· · · · · · MR. MERKIN:· Objection.· Form.
`
`16· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Repeat.
`
`17· ·BY MR. PICKARD
`
`18· · · ·Q· · Back to the example of the Lieberman CV.
`
`19· ·We're on the remote computer.
`
`20· · · ·A· · Yeah.
`
`21· · · ·Q· · You've got the VNC viewer open.· You open
`
`22· ·the Lieberman CV Word file.· Is the remote
`
`23· ·computer running Microsoft Word when you do that?
`
`24· · · · · · MR. MERKIN:· Objection.· Form.
`
`25· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· It may not be.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · HENRY LIEBERMAN
`
`·2· ·BY MR. PICKARD
`
`·3· · · ·Q· · Is it -- why do you say "may not."· Is it
`
`·4· ·unclear from Richardson whether or not it is?
`
`·5· · · ·A· · The Richa
Accessing this document will incur an additional charge of $.
After purchase, you can access this document again without charge.
Accept $ Charge
Still Working On It
This document is taking longer than usual to download. This can happen if we need to contact the court directly to obtain the document and their servers are running slowly.
Give it another minute or two to complete, and then try the refresh button.
A few More Minutes ... Still Working
It can take up to 5 minutes for us to download a document if the court servers are running slowly.
Thank you for your continued patience.
This document could not be displayed.
We could not find this document within its docket. Please go back to the docket page and check the link. If that does not work, go back to the docket and refresh it to pull the newest information.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
You need a Paid Account to view this document. Click here to change your account type.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
Set your membership
status to view this document.
With a Docket Alarm membership, you'll
get a whole lot more, including:
- Up-to-date information for this case.
- Email alerts whenever there is an update.
- Full text search for other cases.
- Get email alerts whenever a new case matches your search.
One Moment Please
The filing “” is large (MB) and is being downloaded.
Please refresh this page in a few minutes to see if the filing has been downloaded. The filing will also be emailed to you when the download completes.
Your document is on its way!
If you do not receive the document in five minutes, contact support at support@docketalarm.com.
Sealed Document
We are unable to display this document, it may be under a court ordered seal.
If you have proper credentials to access the file, you may proceed directly to the court's system using your government issued username and password.
Access Government Site
