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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` FORD MOTOR COMPANY, )
` )
` Petitioner, )
` )
` vs. ) Case Number
` ) IPR2014-00875
` PAICE LLC and ABELL )
` FOUNDATION, INC., )
` )
` Patent Owner. )
`
` DEPOSITION OF JEFFREY L. STEIN, Ph.D.
`
` Southfield, Michigan
`
` Friday, May 29, 2015
`
`Reported by:
`
`RACHEL F. GARD, CSR, RPR, CLR, CRR
`
`REF NO. 14261A
`
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`1
`
`PAICE 2105
`Ford v. Paice & Abell
`IPR2014-01415
`
`
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` FORD MOTOR COMPANY, )
` )
` Petitioner, )
` )
` vs. ) Case Number
` ) IPR2014-00875
` PAICE LLC and ABELL )
` FOUNDATION, INC., )
` )
` Patent Owner. )
`
` DEPOSITION OF JEFFREY L. STEIN, Ph.D.
`
` Southfield, Michigan
`
` Friday, May 29, 2015
`
`Reported by:
`
`RACHEL F. GARD, CSR, RPR, CLR, CRR
`
`REF NO. 14261A
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`1
`
`PAICE 2105
`Ford v. Paice & Abell
`IPR2014-01415
`
`
`
`Page 2
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` May 29, 2015
`
` 9:04 a.m.
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` Deposition of JEFFREY L. STEIN, Ph.D., at
`
`the offices of Brooks Kushman, P.C., 1000 Town
`
`Center, Suite 2200, Southfield, Michigan,
`
`pursuant to notice before Rachel F. Gard,
`
`Certified Shorthand Reporter, Registered
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`Professional Reporter, Certified LiveNote
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`Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter.
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`A P P E A R A N C E S:
`
` BROOKS KUSHMAN, PC
`
` Attorneys for Petitioner
`
` 1000 Town Center
`
` 22nd Floor
`
` Southfield, Michigan 48075
`
` Phone: 248.358.4400
`
` Email: aturner@brookskushman.com
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` fangileri@brookskushman.com
`
` BY: ANDREW B. TURNER, ESQ.
`
` FRANK ANGILERI, ESQ.
`
` FISH & RICHARDSON
`
` Attorneys for Patent Owner
`
` 1425 K Street, NW
`
` 11th Floor
`
` Washington, DC 20005
`
` Phone: 202.783.5070
`
` Email: guarnieri@fr.com
`
` BY: W. PETER GUARNIERI, ESQ.
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`Page 4
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` I N D E X
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`WITNESS PAGE
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`JEFFREY L. STEIN, Ph.D.
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` Cross-examination by Mr. Guarnieri 5
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` E X H I B I T S
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`STEIN EXHIBIT PAGE
`
` Exhibit 1 U.S. Patent No. 5,586,613 9
` to Ehsani
`
` Exhibit 2 Deposition transcript of 14
` Jeffrey L. Stein from
` March 3rd, 2015
`
` Exhibit 3 Prior art reference, 36
` Vittone
`
` Exhibit 4 Declaration of Dr. Jeffrey 38
` L. Stein in Support of
` Petitioner's Reply to
` Patent Owner's Response
`
` Exhibit 5 U.S. Patent No. 7,559,388 60
`
` Exhibit 6 Declaration of Dr. Jeffrey 78
` L. Stein in Support of
` Petition for Inter Partes
` Review
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`Page 5
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` (Witness sworn.)
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` MR. GUARNIERI: For the record, this 09:04
`
` is Pete Guarnieri for Fish & Richardson for 09:04
`
` PAICE and the Abell Foundation. 09:04
`
` MR. TURNER: This is Andrew Turner 09:04
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` with Brooks Kushman for Ford, and with me 09:04
`
` is Frank Angileri also for Ford. 09:04
`
`WHEREUPON:
`
` JEFFREY L. STEIN, Ph.D.,
`
`called as a witness herein, having been first
`
`duly sworn, was examined and testified as
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`follows:
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` CROSS-EXAMINATION
`
`BY MR. GUARNIERI: 09:04
`
` Q. Good morning, Dr. Stein. 09:04
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` A. Good morning. 09:04
`
` Q. Could you state your full name and 09:04
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`business address for the record. 09:04
`
` A. Jeffrey L. Stein. University of 09:04
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`Michigan, Department of Mechanical Engineering. 09:04
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` Q. And, Dr. Stein, this is the third 09:04
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`time I believe that you've been deposed in 09:04
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`these PAICE/Ford IPR matters; is that correct? 09:04
`
` A. I haven't kept count. 09:04
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` Q. Feels like more than that? 09:04
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` Well, you're familiar with the rules 09:04
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`of the proceedings, familiar with how this 09:04
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`deposition process works; am I correct on that? 09:05
`
` A. I am familiar with how things have 09:05
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`been going so far, yes, in this -- in these 09:05
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`related depositions. 09:05
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` Q. So you understand that you've taken 09:05
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`an oath; and you're obligated to testify 09:05
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`truthfully and accurately just as if you were 09:05
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`in a court, right? 09:05
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` A. Correct. 09:05
`
` Q. All right. Are there any reasons 09:05
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`today you wouldn't be able to provide accurate, 09:05
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`fully accurate testimony, any special 09:05
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`conditions, medical conditions, anything of 09:05
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`that nature that we should know about? 09:05
`
` A. No. 09:05
`
` Q. What did you do to prepare for your 09:05
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`deposition today? 09:05
`
` A. I reviewed my declaration, the '097, 09:05
`
`what I call '097 IPR 2. And I also reviewed, 09:06
`
`you know, the materials that are relevant to 09:06
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`that declaration. And I also reviewed the '388 09:06
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`reply declaration and materials related to 09:06
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`that. 09:06
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` Q. And approximately how much time 09:06
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`would you say you spent preparing? 09:06
`
` A. How much time I spent preparing for? 09:06
`
` Q. This deposition. 09:06
`
` A. I mean, I'd have to look at my 09:06
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`records to see how much time. But -- So I 09:06
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`don't know any kind of hour content, then. But 09:06
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`I've been spending the last week or so since 09:06
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`I've understood that the deposition was going 09:07
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`to be scheduled for today getting ready. 09:07
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` Q. More or less than 40 hours? 09:07
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` A. I guess I just don't really know 09:07
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`what that number would be; but, you know, I 09:07
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`can't imagine 40 is a long ways off from it. 09:07
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` Q. Fair enough. And who did you talk 09:07
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`to while you were preparing for today's 09:07
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`deposition? 09:07
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` A. I -- Who did I talk with about the 09:07
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`deposition specifically? 09:07
`
` Q. Correct. 09:07
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` A. So I spoke with the -- Mr. Turner 09:07
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`and Mr. Angileri, Ms. Shah, and Mr. Kushman. I 09:08
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`believe that's it. 09:08
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` Q. Dr. Stein, do you have -- do you 09:08
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`know sitting here today approximately how many 09:08
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`declarations you've submitted across all the 09:08
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`various PAICE/Ford IPRs? 09:08
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` A. Could you repeat the question, 09:08
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`please? 09:08
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` Q. Sure. Do you know sitting here 09:08
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`today approximately how many declarations 09:08
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`you've submitted for all the PAICE/Ford IPRs? 09:08
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`10, 15, 20? 09:09
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` A. I mean, I'd have to look at my 09:09
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`records to count up the number. But there's 09:09
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`some number, you know, in the area of 10-ish. 09:09
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` Q. And for all of those, whatever that 09:09
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`number is, roughly how much time have you spent 09:09
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`working on those declarations? 09:09
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` A. I mean, I don't know how to answer 09:09
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`that question without going back and looking at 09:09
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`my records. I've been working on this case. I 09:09
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`was retained, as you know, over a year ago. I 09:09
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`don't remember the exact date off the top of my 09:09
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`head. And I've worked on declarations over 09:09
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`that period of time. 09:09
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` Q. How about this: Roughly how much 09:10
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`money have you billed for your work on these 09:10
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`IPRs? 09:10
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` A. I don't know the answer to that 09:10
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`question without looking at my invoices. 09:10
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` Q. More or less than $100,000? 09:10
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` A. I would say that over the total, 09:10
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`billing has been probably in excess of 09:10
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`$100,000. 09:10
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` Q. More than $500,000? 09:10
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` A. I don't believe so. 09:10
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` Q. Somewhere between 100- and $500,000? 09:11
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` A. Again, without looking at my 09:11
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`records, I can't be more specific than that. 09:11
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` (Stein Exhibit Number 1 marked for 09:11
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` identification.) 09:11
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`BY MR. GUARNIERI: 09:11
`
` Q. This is -- The court reporter has 09:11
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`just handed you what's been marked as 09:11
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`Exhibit 1. It's Ford Exhibit 1003. This is 09:11
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`U.S. Patent No. 5,586,613 to Ehsani, 09:11
`
`E H S A N I. 09:11
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` A. Can I ask you a question? So we're 09:11
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`going to be focusing on my reply dec, the '388 09:12
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`reply dec? 09:12
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` Q. I think we're going to start with 09:12
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`IPR2014-875, which is your reply declaration. 09:12
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`You seem to have brought some binders today. 09:12
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`What are in those binders? 09:12
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` A. One is my '388 binder, which has my 09:12
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`'388 reply declaration in it as well as my 09:12
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`original declaration and some of the prior art 09:12
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`references. 09:12
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` Q. And the second binder? 09:12
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` A. Is related to the '097 declaration 09:12
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`and prior art references. 09:12
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` Q. Okay. You can feel free to refer to 09:12
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`those throughout the day. We'll mark exhibits 09:12
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`as we go. 09:12
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` MR. GUARNIERI: I'd ask that I be 09:12
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` allowed to just check those maybe on a 09:12
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` break sometime. 09:12
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` MR. TURNER: That's fine. 09:12
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`BY MR. GUARNIERI: 09:12
`
` Q. Okay. Well, looking at Exhibit 1 09:12
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`that's in front of you, do you recognize this 09:12
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`reference, Dr. Stein? 09:12
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` A. Yes, I do. It looks like the Ehsani 09:13
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`that I used in my declaration, referred to in 09:13
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`my declaration. 09:13
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` Q. And, Dr. Stein, in the Ehsani 09:13
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`control system, Ehsani tries to operate -- 09:13
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`always operate the engine in an efficient 09:13
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`manner and region; is that correct? 09:13
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` A. So what do you mean by a control 09:13
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`system? 09:14
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` Q. Well, do you agree that Ehsani 09:14
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`discloses a control system to control a hybrid 09:14
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`electric vehicle? 09:14
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` A. I agree that he talks about the 09:14
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`control of the hybrid electric vehicle. And so 09:14
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`I just want to be specific about which 09:14
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`controller you're talking about or which 09:14
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`control concept when we're using that word 09:14
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`because there can be multiple things that are 09:14
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`being controlled. 09:14
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` Q. So when Ehsani talks about the 09:14
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`control of the hybrid electric vehicle, it's 09:14
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`the case that when the engine is operated, 09:14
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`Ehsani tries to operate the engine in an 09:14
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`efficient manner and efficient region, so he's 09:14
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`trying to operate the engine at a constant 09:14
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`power, right? 09:14
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` MR. TURNER: Objection. Vague. 09:15
`
`BY THE WITNESS: 09:17
`
` A. Okay. Could you repeat your 09:17
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`question again, please, now? 09:17
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` Q. So when Ehsani talks about the 09:17
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`control of the hybrid electric vehicle, it's 09:17
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`the case that when the engine is operated, 09:17
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`Ehsani tries to operate the engine in an 09:17
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`efficient manner and efficient region so he's 09:17
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`trying to operate the engine at a constant 09:17
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`power, right? 09:17
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` A. I agree with the idea that the 09:17
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`engine has a region in its power speed curve 09:17
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`where it can be more efficient, and that's also 09:17
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`true in its torque speed curve and that Ehsani 09:18
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`is trying to take advantage of that in his 09:18
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`invention that he is describing in the '613 by 09:18
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`at times operating the engine at a kind of 09:18
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`average -- at a constant power output. 09:18
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` Q. Dr. Stein, do you agree that when 09:18
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`the engine is operated, Ehsani tries to operate 09:18
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`the engine in an efficient manner and efficient 09:18
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`region, so Ehsani is trying to define to 09:18
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`operate the engine at a constant power? 09:18
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` A. I thought I just answered that 09:18
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`question. 09:18
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` Q. You didn't, Dr. Stein. Do you agree 09:19
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`with my statement or do you not? 09:19
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` A. I agree with my answer. If you'd 09:19
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`like me to repeat it ... 09:19
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` Q. Maybe this might help. Do you 09:19
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`recall testifying on March 3rd, 2015, you were 09:19
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`asked: Does the engine run at a constant power 09:19
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`in Ehsani? 09:19
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` You answered: When the engine is 09:19
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`operated, he tries to operate the engine in an 09:19
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`efficient manner and efficient region, so he's 09:19
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`trying to define to operate engine at a 09:19
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`constant power, but the engine isn't always 09:19
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`run. 09:19
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` Do you recall giving that testimony? 09:19
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` A. It sounds -- I'd have to look at 09:19
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`transcript. I don't -- It sounds familiar, but 09:19
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`I'd have to look at transcript to see if that's 09:19
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`a precise representation of what I said. 09:19
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` Q. Do you have any reason to doubt that 09:19
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`that's what you testified to? 09:19
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` A. I just haven't -- don't see the 09:19
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`transcript. I have to look at it to know those 09:19
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`are the exact words. I don't have a 09:20
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`photographic recall of what I said. 09:20
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` Q. Well, let me ask the question again. 09:20
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`Do you now disagree or agree with your prior 09:20
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`testimony that I'm representing to you was: 09:20
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`When the engine is operating, he tries to 09:20
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`operate the engine in an efficient manner and 09:20
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`efficient region, so he's trying to define to 09:20
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`operate the engine at a constant power, but the 09:20
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`engine isn't always run? 09:20
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` MR. TURNER: Objection. Compound. 09:20
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`BY THE WITNESS: 09:20
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` A. Can I read my transcript or 09:20
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`statement? 09:20
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` Q. Sure. 09:20
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` MR. GUARNIERI: Why don't we mark 09:20
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` this. 09:21
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` (Stein Exhibit Number 2 marked for 09:21
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` identification.) 09:21
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`BY MR. GUARNIERI: 09:21
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` Q. Dr. Stein, the court reporter has 09:21
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`handed you what's been marked as Exhibit 2, 09:21
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`which is the deposition transcript of Jeffrey 09:21
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`L. Stein from March 3rd, 2015. 09:21
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` A. That's correct. 09:21
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` Q. And if you'll look on Page 69 of the 09:21
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`transcript, starting at Line 23, and why don't 09:21
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`you read the question and answer into the 09:21
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`record that starts on Line 23. 09:21
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` A. Does the engine run at a constant 09:21
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`power in Ehsani? 09:21
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` ANSWER: When the engine is 09:21
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`operated, he tries to operate the engine in an 09:21
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`efficient manner and efficient region so he's 09:21
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`trying to define to operate the engine at a 09:21
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`constant power, but the engine isn't always 09:22
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`run, period. 09:22
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` Q. Is that testimony still accurate, 09:22
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`sir? 09:22
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` A. I have to see what the context was 09:22
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`for that answer. 09:22
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` So could you just, to get us going 09:22
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`again -- I'm trying to understand what your 09:28
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`question is. And just to be clear, could you 09:28
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`just repeat your question? 09:28
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` Q. So you've had a chance to read your 09:28
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`testimony from your March 3rd, 2015 deposition 09:28
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`at Page 69, Lines 23 to Page 70, Line 4, my 09:28
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`question was: Is that testimony still accurate 09:28
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`today, sir? 09:28
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` A. I think it's an accurate statement 09:28
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`about the general nature of Ehsani's invention 09:29
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`that he's trying to operate his engine in an 09:29
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`efficient manner, and one of his ideas is to 09:29
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`run the engine at a constant power. He does 09:29
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`say in the context of his invention in 09:29
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`Column 7 of Line 10, 11, 12, other control 09:29
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`techniques may be used without departing from 09:29
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`the intended scope herein. 09:29
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` So I think that the general nature 09:29
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`of his idea is to run the engine at a constant 09:29
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`power. That's one of the things that he 09:29
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`describes and to run the engine in a more 09:29
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`efficient rather than less efficient region. 09:30
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` Q. And you also say in that testimony 09:30
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`that the engine isn't always run in Ehsani's 09:30
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`control system. Is that still accurate? 09:30
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` A. The possibility exists for turning 09:30
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`off the engine. As I just said, other control 09:30
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`techniques can be used without departing from 09:30
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`the intended scope therein, so the engine could 09:30
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`be turned off. 09:30
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` Q. So how does Ehsani teach when to 09:30
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`turn the engine on and when to turn the engine 09:30
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`off? 09:30
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` A. I don't know that he specifically 09:30
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`provides that particular detail within his 09:30
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`reference. I'd have to look back to see. 09:30
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` Q. You have Ehsani in front of you. 09:30
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`Feel free to take a look at it and let me know 09:31
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`if you can identify where Ehsani teaches when 09:31
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`to turn the engine on and when to turn the 09:31
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`engine off. 09:31
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` A. So Ehsani does provide in some of 09:39
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`his embodiments a clutch for being able to 09:40
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`disengage the engine, and he also describes 09:40
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`that other control techniques may be used 09:40
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`without departing from the scope. 09:40
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` And so I think what I was referring 09:40
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`to in my deposition transcript, that the engine 09:40
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`isn't necessarily always run, is in the context 09:40
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`of this ability to decouple the engine from the 09:40
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`drive wheels and to -- and when it's decoupled, 09:40
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`you could, if the batteries, for example, were 09:40
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`fully charged, you could -- you would not need 09:40
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`to run the engine during those times. There 09:40
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`may be other, you know, situations where that 09:40
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`might be appropriate as well. That's just one 09:40
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`that comes to my mind at the moment. 09:40
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` Q. Now, in the examples you just 09:41
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`described in your prior answer, does Ehsani 09:41
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`describe the control algorithm that would be 09:41
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`used to, for example, decouple the engine from 09:41
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`the drive wheels and propel the vehicle using 09:41
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`the motor with charge from the battery? 09:41
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` A. So are you asking me does Ehsani 09:41
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`specifically call out an electric motor mode 09:41
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`where he's just driving the vehicle with the 09:41
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`electric motor? 09:41
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` Q. I'm asking you whether or not Ehsani 09:41
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`describes a control algorithm or control 09:41
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`strategy for switching between running the 09:42
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`engine at constant power, which you agreed 09:42
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`earlier is one of the things Ehsani discloses, 09:42
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`and switching to running only on the electric 09:42
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`motor where the engine is decoupled using the 09:42
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`clutch that you just described in your prior 09:42
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`answer? 09:42
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` A. He does describe decoupling the 09:42
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`engine with the clutch. I can refer you to the 09:42
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`point where he does describe that. 09:42
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` Q. So I appreciate that. And what I'd 09:42
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`like to know is: Does he describe a control 09:42
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`algorithm or control strategy for telling a 09:42
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`person of skill in the art when during normal 09:42
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`operation or when in operation of the car you 09:42
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`would do that? 09:42
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` MR. TURNER: Objection. Relevance. 09:42
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`BY THE WITNESS: 09:42
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` A. It seems to me that your question is 09:42
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`beyond the scope of my review for this 09:44
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`particular declaration in the sense that claims 09:44
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`that I was concerned with don't involve mode 09:44
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`selection as an issue. So I haven't studied 09:44
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`that specific issue as it relates to the Ehsani 09:44
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`reference. I don't believe that's something 09:44
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`that's discussed in my declaration. If you can 09:44
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`show me, then we can certainly discuss it. 09:44
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` Q. So, Dr. Stein, you realize you're 09:44
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`not allowed to cue off of Mr. Turner's 09:44
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`objections? It appears he just objected on 09:44
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`relevance. And after studying your 09:44
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`declaration, you answered that "it seems to me 09:44
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`that your question is beyond the scope of my 09:44
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`review." 09:44
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` Did you just cue off of Mr. Turner's 09:44
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`objection? 09:44
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` A. I listened to your question, and I 09:44
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`understood that the question was outside of 09:45
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`what I had reviewed. 09:45
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` Q. Let me ask you this: Did you review 09:45
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`the entire Ehsani reference? 09:45
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` A. I reviewed the Ehsani reference, 09:45
`
`yes. 09:45
`
` Q. Did you consider the entire Ehsani 09:45
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`reference? 09:45
`
` A. I've considered the Ehsani reference 09:45
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`as a whole, yes. 09:45
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` Q. In your review and consideration of 09:45
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`the Ehsani reference as a whole, did Ehsani 09:45
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`disclose anywhere a strategy for switching 09:45
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`between operating on the motor and operating on 09:45
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`the engine? 09:45
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` A. He does discuss -- So ask that 09:45
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`question again. Please repeat your question. 09:45
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` Q. In your reviewing and consideration 09:45
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`of the Ehsani reference as a whole, did Ehsani 09:45
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`disclose anywhere a strategy for switching 09:45
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`between operating on the motor and operating on 09:45
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`the engine? 09:45
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` A. I mean, generally speaking, he talks 09:45
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`about the control of hybrid vehicles; and he 09:46
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`does talk about having, generally speaking, 09:46
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`several different modes of operation, which are 09:46
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`described in my declaration. 09:46
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` Q. Well, that wasn't my question, sir. 09:46
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`Yes or no, in reviewing and considering the 09:46
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`Ehsani references as a whole, did Ehsani 09:46
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`disclose anywhere a strategy for switching 09:46
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`between operating on the motor and operating on 09:46
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`the engine? 09:46
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` A. I think that I answered that 09:46
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`question in the sense that he provides a 09:46
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`description of at least two modes of operation 09:46
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`of his electric hybrid -- hybrid electric 09:46
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`vehicle, and he describes generally this issue 09:47
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`of what he calls mode 1 and mode 2. What the 09:47
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`conditions are that relate to those two modes 09:47
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`is something that he talks about. 09:47
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` Q. Dr. Stein, do you agree that the 09:47
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`control system in Ehsani must have to set the 09:48
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`engine's output torque? 09:48
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` A. I don't understand that question. 09:48
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` Q. Sure. In order for an engine to 09:48
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`produce torque in a hybrid electric vehicle, 09:48
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`you agree that the engine has to be commanded 09:48
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`in some way to produce torque, correct? 09:48
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` MR. TURNER: Objection. Vague. 09:48
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`BY THE WITNESS: 09:48
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` A. So do you want to -- I'm having 09:48
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`difficulty with your question because it seems 09:49
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`to be unclear. 09:49
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` But in particular, let's talk 09:49
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`about -- To help with getting ourselves clear 09:49
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`about what you're asking so I can answer it, 09:49
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`perhaps we should talk about just an engine in 09:49
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`general such as if we were talking with my 09:49
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`students and talking about how engines work. 09:49
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`Fair enough? 09:49
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` Q. Fair enough. 09:49
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` A. So in that context, if you want an 09:49
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`engine to produce power, then you have to 09:49
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`provide it with fuel and spark. 09:49
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` Q. And if you say you want to provide 09:49
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`it with fuel and spark, that's the result of a 09:49
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`command to the engine by some form of control 09:49
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`system; is that correct? Still in the context 09:49
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`of just talking about an engine as if we were 09:49
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`discussing this with your students. 09:50
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` A. Well, in a typical, say, commercial 09:50
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`engine and from a vehicle, whether a hybrid 09:50
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`vehicle or a conventional vehicle, in this day 09:50
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`and age, we have an engine controller which 09:50
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`helps manage how the engine operates. But 09:50
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`strictly speaking, you don't have to have a 09:50
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`controller of that nature to provide fuel and 09:50
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`spark to the engine. In the old days, we 09:50
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`didn't have engine controllers in the sense of 09:50
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`having
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