UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`Page 1
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`ERICSSON INC. and )
`TELEFONAKTIEBOLAGET LM ERICSSON, ) Case No.
` Petitioners, ) IPR2014-01195
` vs. ) Patent No. 7,787,431
`INTELLECTUAL VENTURES II LLC, )
` Patent Owner. )
`---------------------------------
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF KENNETH ZEGER, Ph.D.
` San Diego, California
` Thursday, June 11, 2015
` Volume I
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`Reported by:
`Gail E. Kennamer, CSR 4583, CCRR
`Job No. 94010
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`ERIC-1031
`Ericsson v. IV, IPR2014-01195
`Page 1 of 184
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` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`ERICSSON INC. and )
`TELEFONAKTIEBOLAGET LM ERICSSON, ) Case No.
` Petitioners, ) IPR2014-01195
` vs. ) Patent No. 7,787,431
`INTELLECTUAL VENTURES II LLC, )
` Patent Owner. )
`---------------------------------
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF KENNETH ZEGER, Ph.D.
` San Diego, California
` Thursday, June 11, 2015
` Volume I
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`Reported by:
`Gail E. Kennamer, CSR 4583, CCRR
`Job No. 94010
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`Ericsson v. IV, IPR2014-01195
`Page 1 of 184
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`Page 2
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`---------------------------------
`ERICSSON INC. and )
`TELEFONAKTIEBOLAGET LM ERICSSON, ) Case No.
` Petitioners, ) IPR2014-01195
` vs. ) Patent No. 7,787,431
`INTELLECTUAL VENTURES II LLC, )
` Patent Owner. )
`---------------------------------
`
` Videotaped Deposition of KENNETH ZEGER, Ph.D.,
`Volume I, taken on behalf of Petitioners at 12255
`El Camino Real, Suite 300, San Diego, California,
`beginning at 9:08 a.m., and ending at 2:59 p.m.,
`Thursday, June 11, 2015, before
`Gail E. Kennamer, CSR 4583, CCRR.
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`APPEARANCES:
`
`For Petitioners:
`
` HAYNES and BOONE
` BY: JOHN EMERSON, ESQ.
` and J. ANDREW LOWES, ESQ.
` 2505 North Plano Road
` Richardson, Texas 75082
`
`For Patent Owner:
`
` McANDREWS HELD & MALLOY
` BY: SHARON HWANG, ESQ.
` 500 West Madison Street
` Chicago, Illinois 60661
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
` James R. Hietala, Intellectual Ventures II
` Rajendra Chiplunkar, Intellectual Ventures II
` Rishi Gupta, Ericsson
` Julian Abalos, Videographer
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` INDEX
`WITNESS EXAMINATION
`KENNETH ZEGER, Ph.D.
`Volume I
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` BY MR. EMERSON 7
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` EXHIBITS
`NUMBER PAGE
`Exhibit 2005 Document entitled, "Materials 8
` Considered by Dr. Zeger in
` Connection with Preparation
` of Declaration"
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` San Diego, California; Thursday, June 11, 2015
` 9:08 a.m.
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`Page 6
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` VIDEO OPERATOR: This is the start of tape
`labeled Number 1 in the videotaped deposition of Kenneth
`Zeger, Ph.D. in the matter of Ericsson, Inc. et al. versus
`Intellectual Ventures II, LLC in the U.S. Patent and
`Trademark Office before the Patent Trial and Appeals
`Board, Case Number IPR2014-01195. This deposition is
`being held at 1225 [verbatim] El Camino Real, Suite 300,
`San Diego California on June 11, 2015 at approximately
`9:08 a.m.
` My name is Julian Abalos, from TSG Reporting, Inc.,
`and I'm the legal video specialist. The court reporter is
`Gail Kennamer in association with TSG Reporting.
` Will counsel please introduce yourselves.
` MR. EMERSON: Russ Emerson; Haynes and Boone,
`for Ericsson.
` MS. HWANG: Sharon Hwang; McAndrews Held &
`Malloy for patent owner, Intellectual Ventures.
` MR. LOWES: Andrew Lowes; Haynes and Boone for
`Ericsson.
` MR. CHIPLUNKAR: Raj Chiplunkar; McAndrews Held
`& Malloy, for Intellectual Ventures.
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`Page 7
` MR. HIETALA: James Hietala, house counsel at
`Intellectual Ventures.
` MR. GUPTA: Rishi Gupta for Ericsson.
` VIDEO OPERATOR: Thank you.
` The reporter may now swear in the witness.
`
` KENNETH ZEGER Ph.D.,
`a witness herein, having been administered an oath, was
`examined, and testified as follows:
`
` MS. HWANG: I'd like to previously read a
`stipulation on the record.
` The parties stipulate that the video of Dr. Zeger's
`deposition will only be usable in this IPR proceeding.
` MR. EMERSON: Agreed.
` Ready?
` THE REPORTER: Ready.
`
` -EXAMINATION-
`
` BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q. Good morning, Dr. Zeger.
` A. Good morning.
` Q. Good to see you today.
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` Just for the record, I am going to hand you what we
`will mark as Exhibit 2005, which Sharon handed to me a few
`minutes ago, and that is the list of the materials you
`considered in connection with your declaration.
` Do you see that?
` THE WITNESS: What's the exhibit number again?
` (Deposition Exhibit 2005 was marked for
`identification by the court reporter at the conclusion of
`the deposition.)
` BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q. 2005.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Okay. Does that accurately reflect the
`materials that you reviewed in preparing your declaration
`in this case?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. Any reason why you can't testify
`truthfully and accurately today?
` A. No.
` Q. You are feeling fine?
` A. I am.
` Q. All is well?
` A. All is well.
` Q. When were you engaged in this matter?
` A. By "this matter," do you mean this particular --
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` Q. This particular IPR.
` A. -- IPR?
` Q. Yeah.
` A. So I -- I believe I started working on this
`December of 2014, approximately.
` Q. December of '14. Okay.
` So you were not involved then in preparing the
`preliminary response?
` A. For this case?
` Q. For this case.
` A. I believe that's correct.
` Q. All right. You were not involved?
` A. I was not involved.
` Q. Okay. I'll go ahead and hand you a couple of
`exhibits that we'll spend some time on.
` The first is Exhibit 2001, which is a copy of your
`declaration, and then Exhibit 2002, which is your CV.
` A. (Indicating.)
` Q. So let's take a look first at your declaration,
`and I want to go over some of your experience briefly.
` Okay?
` A. Okay.
` Q. All right. So let's turn to your declaration on
`the first page. You begin -- Well, your second --
`your second heading is, "Professional Background and
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`Qualifications."
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And on the next page in Paragraph 7 you describe
`your current position at UCSD; correct?
` A. I see Paragraph 7, yes.
` Q. And you are a full professor of electrical and
`computer engineering at UCSD; right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Have you ever taught classes directed to OFDM
`technology?
` A. What do you mean by "directed to"?
` Q. I mean where OFDM transmission would be a -- you
`know, a substantial part of what you're teaching, you're
`teaching about OFDM transmission, how to use it,
`et cetera.
` A. Well, I've taught classes that teach the various
`components of OFDM, and I've certainly mentioned OFDM in
`classes, but I have not taught a class that -- whose
`primary focus was OFDM.
` Q. Okay. Have you ever performed research directed
`to OFDM transmission?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Could you describe that for me, please?
` A. I did -- probably the most of it was for the
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`U.S. Department of Defense over the last about 16 years.
` Q. Can you tell us about that?
` A. Unfortunately, I cannot. It's classified
`information.
` Q. Is there anything about that in your CV which is
`Exhibit 2002?
` A. (Indicating.)
` Well, on page 2 of my CV at the top it talks about
`consulting experience. It mentions clients.
` Q. Uh-huh.
` A. In the fourth bullet item is Institute for
`Defense Analyses, so that is where it occurred. It
`doesn't describe what I did, of course, but that's --
`that's where it happened.
` And also in my declaration, Paragraph 8, where it
`says, "United States Department of Defense."
` Q. Okay. But your -- Neither your declaration or
`your CV gives us any details as to the nature of your
`OFDM-related research, do they?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. And you can't give us any more details because
`that research is classified?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. Okay. Other than these -- Let me back up. No.
` Other than these -- this consulting for the Institute
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`for Defense analyses, have you ever been involved in any
`consulting projects directed to OFDM transmission?
` A. Consult -- Do you mean by consulting projects,
`for, like, private companies or do you mean -- Would that
`include university?
` Q. Sure.
` A. Okay. So in the university, I have worked on
`projects that were involved with OFDM systems.
` Q. Okay. And let me clarify my question as we did
`for the first one.
` By "directed to," I mean, you know, primarily
`relating to OFDM transmission.
` A. So the work -- The research that I've worked on,
`is a component. Generally, the way it works in a
`university is no one person designs an entire system.
`People design pieces, then they try to integrate them. So
`I've worked on various be pieces that were involved in
`OFDM systems.
` Q. Like what? What kinds of pieces, for example?
` A. For example, data compression, error control
`coding, networking. Issues like that.
` Q. Have you ever published any papers directed to
`OFDM transmission?
` A. So this research that I just described, I
`published lots of papers that were concerning, again,
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`components that would be used in OFDM systems, but I did
`not publish any papers that was primarily -- whose primary
`focus was, say, designing the OFDM part of the system.
` Q. And by "components," again you mean things like
`compression, decompression, et cetera?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. Have you ever designed a system that utilizes
`OFDM transmission?
` A. What do you mean by "utilize" there?
` Q. Have you ever -- Well, that -- Have you ever
`designed a system that uses the OF- -- an OFDM cellular
`communications protocol?
` A. So I've -- It's kind of a repeat of what my
`previous thing was. I've designed compression schemes and
`error correcting schemes and network coding schemes that
`were used in OFDM systems or were to be used in OFDM
`systems.
` Not sure if that answers the question.
` Q. Well, that's the extent of your experience
`designing systems that use OFDM transmission?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Why don't you turn to Paragraph 35 of your
`declaration.
` A. (Indicating.)
` Q. Are you there?
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` A. Yes.
` Q. You -- 35 is a quotation from the '431 patent
`that's at issue in this IPR; correct?
` A. I believe so. I'm pretty sure Exhibit 1001 is.
` Q. Right.
` A. Are you representing that it is?
` Q. Yeah. In fact, let's just hand that out so
`there is no question about that. We'll go into this quite
`a bit as well.
` So I'm handing you what's been marked as
`Exhibit 1001, which is the Li '431 patent.
` A. (Indicating.)
` Q. Can you describe any work that you've done with
`user terminals in a variable bandwidth environment?
` A. Could you clarify what you mean by "work done
`with"?
` Q. Well, any classes taught, research done, papers
`written.
` A. Okay. So I have supervised students that have
`been involved in these types of systems. I've -- Again,
`most of the work I've done in this matter has been with
`the DOD.
` Q. Okay.
` A. So...
` Q. And that work with the DOD was specifically with
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`OFDM technology?
` A. Correct.
` Q. Okay.
` A. I guess I should also note that I'm -- I have
`been a member of the Center for Wireless Communications at
`UCSD for about 20 years, and there's constantly seminars
`and interaction and, you know, research discussions with
`people regarding OFDM. So it's a constant topic that's in
`the air, so to speak.
` Q. Wireless -- Let me back up.
` What did you say this institute was called?
` A. The Center for Wireless Communications.
` Q. Okay. So wireless communications covers a broad
`range of communications; correct?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. Wi-Fi, Bluetooth is wireless communications?
` A. Those are examples.
` Q. Okay. How about wireless signal transmission at
`the physical layer?
` MS. HWANG: Objection. Form.
` BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q. What type of work have you done relating to
`wireless signal transmission at the physical layer?
` A. Well, at the university I have worked on, again,
`many projects that involve that. I've done quite a bit of
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`work on what's called joint source channel coding. That
`involves combining data compression with other things like
`modulation and wireless transmission.
` Then I've done work again for the DOD in that area,
`and I've been involved in -- I teach some of that in my
`classes.
` And I've been involved in the wireless center, the
`Center for Wireless Communications.
` Q. Okay. Would you look at Exhibit 2005 real
`quick. That was the one I handed you, the new one.
` A. This one, materials considered?
` Q. Yeah.
` A. Got it.
` Q. So I note on there that you -- you reviewed the
`file history for the '431 patent; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Did you consider the file history when you
`construed the terms substantially not wider?
` A. (Indicating.)
` Yes.
` Q. You did. Okay.
` Do you describe that at all in your discussion of
`substantially not wider, the construction of that term?
` A. When you say "describe that," what do you mean
`by "that"?
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` Q. Your review of the file history and its relation
`to the meaning of the term.
` A. Specifically, for substantially the --
` Q. Substantially not wider, which begins on the
`discussion, of which begins on page 20 of your
`declaration.
` A. (Indicating.)
` Well, if we turn to page 15 of my declaration --
` Q. Uh-huh.
` A. -- in Paragraph 38, let me just read the last
`sentence there. It says, "Claim terms" are
`"generally...given their ordinary and customary meaning,
`as would be understand by a person of ordinary skill in
`the art at the time of the invention and in the context of
`the entire disclosure of the patent."
` So the entire disclosure, what I mean by that is,
`among other things, including the -- the file history. So
`that is a general statement, and I certainly applied that
`to all of my claim constructions.
` Q. Okay. Specifically as it relates to the
`substantially not wider term, did the file history of the
`'431 patent come into play at all in your construction of
`that term?
` A. (Indicating.)
` I certainly reviewed the file history with respect to
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`substantially not wider, and it's my recollection that
`there -- there was nothing in there that altered my
`opinion about it.
` Q. Okay. All right. Let's turn then to
`Paragraph 26.
` A. (Indicating.)
` Q. And this is part of your discussion of the
`person of ordinary skill in the art.
` A. (Indicating.)
` Q. And I turn to Paragraph 26 because that's where
`you indicate some disagreement with Dr. Haas's
`declaration; is that fair to say?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Actually, let me rephrase that.
` Is it fair to say that you have some disagreement
`with Dr. Haas's definition of the person of ordinary skill
`in the art?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. Do the differences between your
`definition of the person of ordinary skill in the art and
`Dr. Haas's definition of the person of ordinary skill in
`the art have any impact on your ultimate opinions in this
`case?
` A. With regard to my opinions in this declaration,
`so far they have not had any substantial difference.
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` Q. So if -- if the Board adopted Dr. Haas's
`definition of a person of ordinary skill in the art, it is
`still your opinion that the Claims 1 and 2 of the '431
`patent are not invalid?
` A. Well, I didn't -- I don't think anywhere in this
`declaration I stated that they are valid.
` Q. Okay.
` A. What I did was I rebutted Dr. Haas's opinions.
` Q. Okay. So you don't opine on the validity or
`invalidity of the '431 patent?
` A. I gave opinions with respect to Dr. Haas's
`opinions, and I analyzed whether I agreed with his -- His
`opinions were that they were not valid.
` I analyzed his opinions, and I disagreed with his
`opinions regarding them potentially being invalid, but I
`did not establish, nor did I lay out in here a full, you
`know, opinion stating that they are valid.
` Q. Understood.
` It's your opinion that Dr. Haas and Ericsson failed
`to show that Claims 1 and 2 of the '431 patent are
`invalid?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Okay. So my question is: Do the differences
`between your definition of the person of ordinary skill in
`the art and Dr. Haas's definition of the person of
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`ordinary skill in the art have any bearing on that
`ultimate opinion?
` A. No.
` Q. No. Okay.
` Why did you raise the issue?
` A. Which issue?
` Q. This -- This difference in opinion between your
`respective definitions of the person of ordinary skill in
`the art.
` A. So in Paragraph 26 I raised the issue just
`because I think it's important to have the correct
`definition.
` Q. Okay. But the differences in your definitions
`don't affect your ultimate conclusions in this case;
`correct?
` A. They don't affect any of the opinions in this
`declaration.
` Q. Okay. Looking at sort of the bottom two-thirds
`of your paragraph here, you state that you disagree with
`these additional statements.
` Dr. Haas appears to be limiting a person of ordinary
`skill in the art of the '431 patent to a designer or
`inventor.
` Tell me what, in your opinion, does a designer do
`that your person of ordinary skill in the art would not
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`do.
` MS. HWANG: Objection. Form.
` THE WITNESS: Well, what I mean by designer
`inventor here is I use those words to mean a person that
`has creativity basically.
` So what I'm trying to do is distinguish between a
`person that's able to pick up a patent, read it, and
`understand it, and know what would be involved in
`implementing it versus a person that could creatively
`invent that invention in the first place.
` BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q. Would a -- Would your person of ordinary skill
`in the art simply need to be able to follow instructions
`as given in a patent disclosure or would your person of
`ordinary skill in the art be able to take desired results
`described in the patent and -- and effectuate those?
` MS. HWANG: Objection. Form.
` THE WITNESS: So I didn't really offer an
`opinion about that distinction.
` BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q. Uh-huh.
` A. My opinion is just regarding whether somebody
`can understand the patent and understand the technology
`and have an ability to understand an implementation versus
`somebody who can go off and be an inventor and come up
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`with it in the first place.
` And my only point of distinguishing between Haas's
`definition and my definition is just to say that I don't
`think a person needs to be able to creatively invent the
`invention in order to be a person of ordinary skill in the
`art in the sense of this analysis I performed.
` Q. So it's your opinion that Dr. Haas's person of
`ordinary skill in the art would necessarily be an inventor
`and not just someone that could practice the invention as
`described in the patent?
` A. I don't have his definition in front of me, but
`that -- roughly speaking, that was the extent of it.
` Q. Okay. Can a person of ordinary skill in the art
`practice a disclosed invention if the invention or if the
`disclosure of the patent doesn't explain how to achieve or
`effectuate the desired results described in the patent?
` MS. HWANG: Objection. Form.
` THE WITNESS: I think that's a legal question
`you're asking me, and I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know
`the legal -- legal meanings behind those words.
` BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q. Okay. All right. Let's go to the '431 patent.
` Do you have that in front of you?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And for the record, that's Exhibit 1001. Take a
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`look at Figure 3 if you could.
` A. (Indicating.)
` Q. You see that that's noted as prior art; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. All right. Now, let's turn to the -- to the
`description in the patent, and specifically I'm going to
`direct you to Column 3.
` A. (Indicating.)
` Q. And you see there is a -- a numbered list 1, 2,
`3 about 40 percent down?
` A. Yes.
` Q. After that, beginning at approximately line 34,
`it states, "The data subcarriers can be arranged into
`groups called subchannels to support scalability and
`multiple-access."
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Was this concept well-known before the filing
`date of the '431 patent?
` MS. HWANG: Objection. Form.
` THE WITNESS: When you say "this concept," what
`are you referring to?
` BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q. What we just read.
` A. So you're asking me if this sentence was
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`well-known?
` Q. Not the sentence, but the idea that the sentence
`is expressing, that data subcarriers could be arranged in
`groups called subchannels to support scalability and
`multiple access.
` A. So that -- whether or not that concept was
`well-known before this patent is not something that I
`offered an opinion about in my declaration.
` Q. Understand.
` Can you tell me now though?
` A. No. I'd have to really think about it and
`research it.
` Q. So you don't know, sitting here today, whether
`that concept was something that was well-known in the art
`at the time of the filing of the '431 patent?
` A. That's correct. I'd have to research it.
` Q. Okay. A few lines down, it states -- it being
`the '431 patent -- at Column 3, beginning about line 37,
`"Each user may use some or all of the subchannels."
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. I'll ask you the same question: Was this
`concept well-known before the filing date of the '431
`patent?
` MS. HWANG: Objection. Foundation.
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` THE WITNESS: Let me point out that in answering
`these -- When I answer you, these sentences taken out of
`context are hard to decipher what they mean. So in order
`to answer a question like that, I'd have to understand
`this sentence in the context of the entire patent and go
`back and review it.
` And again, my answer is without doing such review, I
`can't offer an opinion.
` BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q. How long would it take you to do that review?
`Is that something you can look at these few paragraphs and
`give me an answer or something substantially more involved
`than that?
` A. Probably substantially more involved. Usually
`when I have to answer questions like that for writing
`reports and things like that, it takes quite a bit of
`time.
` Q. Okay. So without doing a substantial review and
`perhaps research, you can't tell me whether the concept of
`each user may use some or all of the subchannels is
`well-known?
` A. That's --
` MS. HWANG: Objection. Form.
` THE WITNESS: That sentence, taken in the
`context of this whole patent, that's correct, it would
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`take me quite a bit of time to analyze that.
` BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q. Okay. All right. Let's turn then to -- Let's
`look at Claim 1.
` A. (Indicating.)
` Q. Are you there?
` A. Yes.
` Q. All right. And I'm looking at sort of the tail
`end of Claim 1, about claim -- about line 60 or 61,
`"...wherein properties of the primary preamble comprise:"
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes, I do.
` Q. And then there are four different properties
`that are listed; correct?
` A. Well, there is -- I guess there is three
`properties. I don't know if you count the one in Column
`10 as the fourth.
` Q. Yeah, I would.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Would you?
` A. Depends how you -- What you mean by
`"properties."
` Q. Well, I mean, the claim says, "...wherein
`properties of the primary preamble comprise:"
` And then it has these -- these four claim elements
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`following it.
` A. I'm -- I'm happy to call it four properties.
` Q. Okay. You don't disagree with that?
` A. No. No, I don't.
` Q. Okay. Let me ask you this: Does -- Does the
`specification provide examples of sequences having those
`properties?
` A. I'd have to go back and review.
` Q. Okay.
` A. Can I look?
` Q. Sure. Take your time.
` A. (Indicating.)
` I don't think this specification teaches specific
`sequences with these properties. I don't think it
`explicitly says anything about that.
` Q. Okay. These properties that are listed at the
`bottom of Column 9 and the top of Column 10 of the '431
`patent, were -- were sequences with these properties known
`in the art at the time of the '431 patent is filed?
` A. Do you mean -- To make sure I answer the
`question correctly, do you mean sequences out of the
`context of the rest of Claim 1?
` Q. No, of course not.
` I mean, in the context of Claim 1, were there
`sequences that had those properties that were known in the
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`art at the time of the filing of the '431 patent?
` A. So my answer would be no because the lead-in to
`these properties is talking about a primary preamble. So
`taking that into account, the answer would be no.
` Q. Why does the primary preamble affect your
`answer?
` A. Well, in Claim 1 a primary preamble has various
`characteristics associated with it; and to properly answer
`the question, there would have to be sequences that have
`these properties with the primary preamble having the
`various characteristics described in the claim.
` Q. Preambles were known in the art in -- when the
`'431 patent was filed; correct?
` A. Well, not primary preambles in this sense, but
`plain preambles, yes.
` Q. The idea of a preamble in a wireless
`communication was known; right?
` A. Out the context of this claim, yes.
` Q. Okay. So leaving aside then the context of the
`claim, just any preamble with these four properties or
`characteristics, would there have been sequences having
`these properties known in the art at that time?
` MS. HWANG: Objection. Form.
` THE WITNESS: So you're asking me would a
`preamble having nothing to do with this claim exist in the
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`literature with these various properties?
` BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q. Sure. Yes.
` A. Offhand, I'm not sure.
` Q. Okay. Was it known in the art that these
`properties were desired properties at the time of the
`filing of the '431 patent?
` MS. HWANG: Objection. Form.
` THE WITNESS: When you say "desired," what do
`you mean exactly by that?
` BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q. That they were a good thing.
` MS. HWANG: Objection. Form.
` THE WITNESS: I'm not sure how to answer that
`because "good" means different things to different people
`if you're an engineer a mathematician, you know, a
`customer. Each -- Each of these kinds of people could
`have different meanings for good, so it really depends.
` BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q. Okay. So why don't we use the meaning that a
`person of ordinary skill in the art as you've defined him
`would use for the word good at the time of the filing of
`the '431 patent.
` MS. HWANG: Objection. Form.
` THE WITNESS: Well, I think a person of ordinary
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`skill in the art, recognizing the novelty of this claim,
`would understand that each of the components here serves a
`purpose, and these properties are -- are adding to the
`invention. So in that sense, without formally construing
`the word good, I imagine it would be good.
` BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q. So do you know if there were sequences having
`these properties known in the art at the time of the
`filing of the '431 patent?
` MS. HWANG: Objection. Form.
` THE WITNESS: There were not sequences in the
`sense of Claim 1 having t
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