IN THE UNITED STATES PATENT AND
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` TRADEMARK OFFICE BEFORE THE PATENT
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` TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`Page 1
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`UNIVERSAL REMOTE CONTROL, INC., )
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` Petitioner, )
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` vs. )
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`UNIVERSAL ELECTRONICS, INC., )
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` Patent Owner. )
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`Case No. IPR2014-0046
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` 200 Park Avenue
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` New York, New York
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` July 22, 2015
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` 9:08 a.m.
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` DEPOSITION of JAMES THOMAS GEIER, in the
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`above-entitled action, held at the above time and place,
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`taken before Jessica R. Taft, a Notary Public of the
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`State of New York, pursuant to Notice.
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`Universal Electronics Exhibit 2030, Page 1
`Universal Remote Control v. Universal Electronics, Trial No. IPR2014-01146
`
`
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` TRADEMARK OFFICE BEFORE THE PATENT
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` TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`Page 1
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`UNIVERSAL REMOTE CONTROL, INC., )
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` Petitioner, )
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` vs. )
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`UNIVERSAL ELECTRONICS, INC., )
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` Patent Owner. )
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`----------------------------------
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`Case No. IPR2014-0046
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`----------------------------------
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` 200 Park Avenue
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` New York, New York
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` July 22, 2015
`
` 9:08 a.m.
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` DEPOSITION of JAMES THOMAS GEIER, in the
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`above-entitled action, held at the above time and place,
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`taken before Jessica R. Taft, a Notary Public of the
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`State of New York, pursuant to Notice.
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`Universal Electronics Exhibit 2030, Page 1
`Universal Remote Control v. Universal Electronics, Trial No. IPR2014-01146
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`
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`Page 2
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`A P P E A R A N C E S :
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` O S T R O L E N K F A B E R , L L P
` A t t o r n e y s f o r t h e P e t i t i o n e r
` 1 1 8 0 A v e n u e o f t h e A m e r i c a s
` N e w Y o r k , N e w Y o r k 1 0 0 3 6
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` B Y : K E I T H B A R K A U S , E s q .
` - a n d -
` D O U G L A S A . M I R O , E S Q .
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` G R E E N B E R G T R A U R I G
` A t t o r n e y s f o r t h e P a t e n t O w n e r
` 7 7 W e s t W a c k e r D r i v e
` S u i t e 3 1 0 0
` C h i c a g o , I l l i n o i s 6 0 6 0 1
` B Y : M A T T H E W J . L E V I N S T E I N , E S Q .
` L e v i n s t e i n m @ g t l a w . c o m
` F i l e N o . 3 1 2 . 4 5 6 . 1 0 3 9
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`Universal Electronics Exhibit 2030, Page 2
`Universal Remote Control v. Universal Electronics, Trial No. IPR2014-01146
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`
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` I N D E X
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`Page 3
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`WITNESS
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` JAMES THOMAS GEIER
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` EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
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` MR. LEVINSTEIN 4
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` E X H I B I T S
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` IDENTIFIED
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` NUMBER DESCRIPTION ON PAGE
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` Exhibit 1001 The '207 patent 41
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` Exhibit 1003 Initial declaration 68
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` Exhibit 1005 Document 93
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` Exhibit 1055 IPR 2014-1146 22
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`Universal Electronics Exhibit 2030, Page 3
`Universal Remote Control v. Universal Electronics, Trial No. IPR2014-01146
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`
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`Page 4
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`J A M E S T. G E I E R,
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`the Witness herein, having first been duly sworn by the
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`Notary Public, was examined and testified as follows:
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` MR. LEVINSTEIN: Mr. Geier, are you ready?
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` THE WITNESS: I am ready.
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` MR. LEVINSTEIN: I guess we will put our
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` appearances on the record first.
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` Matthew Levinstein from the law firm
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` Greenberg Traurig, for the patent owner,
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` Universal Electronics, Inc.
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` MR. BARKAUS: Keith Barkaus from Ostrolenk
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` Faber, LLP, for the Petitioner, Universal
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` Remote Control, Inc.
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` MR. MIRO: Douglas Miro from Ostrolenk
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` Faber, for the Petitioner as well.
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`EXAMINATION BY
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`MR. LEVINSTEIN:
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` Q. Good morning, Mr. Geier.
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` A. Good morning.
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` Q. Could you please state your fall name?
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` A. James Thomas Geier.
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` Q. I just want to go over a few brief kind of
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`rules or expectations just to make sure the day goes
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`smoothly.
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`Universal Electronics Exhibit 2030, Page 4
`Universal Remote Control v. Universal Electronics, Trial No. IPR2014-01146
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` The court reporter is taking down every word
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`you say and I say and your counsel says. So, I will
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`do my best not to talk over you while you are
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`answering and I would appreciate if you would try not
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`to talk over me while I am asking a question because
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`it makes it difficult for the court reporter to get an
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`accurate record. Okay?
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` A. Okay.
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` Q. Is there any reason why the testimony you are
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`going to give today would not be truthful?
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` A. No.
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` Q. Are you under any medication that would impact
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`your ability to testify truthfully?
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` A. No.
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` Q. If you don't understand a question that I ask,
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`just let me know. I will clarify it or rephrase it
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`or, if you just didn't hear it, I can repeat it, okay?
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` A. Okay.
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` Q. And if you answer a question that I pose, I
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`will assume that you did understand the question and
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`that you are responding to the question that I asked.
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`All right?
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` A. Okay.
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` Q. If you need a break, just let me know; we will
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`www.veritext.com
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`888-391-3376
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`
`Universal Electronics Exhibit 2030, Page 5
`Universal Remote Control v. Universal Electronics, Trial No. IPR2014-01146
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`
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`take one. All I ask is that if a question is pending,
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`that you answer the question before we take the break.
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`Page 6
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`All right?
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` A. Okay.
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` Q. Have you ever been deposed before?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. How many times?
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` A. Oh, I don't know the exact number, but
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`somewhere around ten.
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` Q. Around ten times. When was the last time you
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`were deposed prior to today?
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` A. Last deposition was, I believe, toward the end
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`of 2014.
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` Q. What was the subject matter of your deposition
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`testimony? And you can be pretty general.
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` A. It dealt with location-based systems.
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` Q. Did the testimony that you gave during your
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`deposition have anything to do with remote controls?
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` A. No.
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` Q. Or universal remote controls?
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` A. No.
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` Q. The time before that when you were deposed,
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`what was the general subject matter of that testimony?
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` A. Are you asking the times, all the times I have
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`Universal Remote Control v. Universal Electronics, Trial No. IPR2014-01146
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`been deposed?
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` Q. Just the previous time before that.
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` A. I believe that one was dealing with the
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`notifications sent through a delivery system.
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` Q. Does that have anything to do with remote
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`controls or universal remote controls?
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` A. It had some technologies that dealt with some
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`aspects of remote control.
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` Q. Can you elaborate on that?
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` A. I can to the degree that I am not, that I can,
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`so I will keep it very, very general.
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` Q. Sure.
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` A. It dealt with some handheld devices that were
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`used to send signals to another device.
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` Q. Were any of those devices consumer electronics
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`devices?
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` A. They were not, no.
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` Q. Can you think, going back to any previous
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`times you were deposed, did any of that, those
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`deposition, any of those depositions concern testimony
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`about universal remote controls?
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` MR. BARKAUS: Objection to form.
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` THE WITNESS: I don't believe that they
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` dealt with universal remote controls.
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`Universal Electronics Exhibit 2030, Page 7
`Universal Remote Control v. Universal Electronics, Trial No. IPR2014-01146
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`BY MR. LEVINSTEIN:
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` Q. Okay. Have you offered trial testimony prior
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`Page 8
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`to today?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Has any trial testimony that you have offered
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`involved universal remote control technology?
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` A. You know, again, I am not -- those didn't deal
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`specifically with universal remote controllers.
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` Q. I am sorry?
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` A. They didn't deal specifically with universal
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`remote controllers.
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` Q. You have been retained before to provide
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`expert testimony in various proceedings, correct?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Have any of those retentions, regardless of
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`whether you provided deposition or trial testimony,
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`involved universal remote controls?
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` MR. BARKAUS: Objection to form, vague.
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` THE WITNESS: I guess it could depend on
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` what you mean by universal remote control, but
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` these didn't deal with specifically with the
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` universal remote controller, but it dealt
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` certainly some of the technologies involved in
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` remote controllers.
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`Universal Remote Control v. Universal Electronics, Trial No. IPR2014-01146
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`BY MR. LEVINSTEIN:
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` Q. But, to be clear, the retentions were not
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`related to universal remote controls, correct?
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` MR. BARKAUS: Objection to form.
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` THE WITNESS: The general technology dealt
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` with wireless technologies, and, for example,
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` one dealt with communicating with an Xbox
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` through a controller. So that was a form of a
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` controller that was used to control the Xbox.
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` That is the general idea of what that one
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` particular case dealt with.
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`BY MR. LEVINSTEIN:
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` Q. I think my question was a little bit
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`different. So none of those retentions related to
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`universal remote controls, correct?
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` MR. BARKAUS: Objection, asked and answered.
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` THE WITNESS: Again, I think it depends on
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` how you define universal remote control. They
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` dealt with certainly the technologies and the
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` type of equipment that are similar to a remote
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` controller, a universal remote controller, had
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` the functions and features of those other
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` universal remote control.
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`BY MR. LEVINSTEIN:
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`Universal Electronics Exhibit 2030, Page 9
`Universal Remote Control v. Universal Electronics, Trial No. IPR2014-01146
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`Page 10
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` Q. So you say that they had the functions and
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`features of universal remote control. And I just want
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`to make sure the record is clear. To me that suggests
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`that they were not universal remote controls. Is that
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`correct?
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` MR. BARKAUS: Objection to form.
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` THE WITNESS: Again, I think it depends on
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` how you define a universal remote controller.
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`BY MR. LEVINSTEIN:
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` Q. How would you define a universal remote
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`controller?
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` A. I think it would be something that could be
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`used to control different types of equipment.
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` Q. Anything that could be used to control
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`different types of equipment qualifies as a universal
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`remote control?
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` A. Well, I think it --
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` Q. I just want to make sure I understand your
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`definition so when I use that term, that I am using it
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`in a way that we are on the same page.
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` A. Are you using the term in relation to the '207
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`patent, or are you asking me a question based on just
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`in general what a universal remote controller is?
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` Q. Let's start in general and eventually we will
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`Universal Electronics Exhibit 2030, Page 10
`Universal Remote Control v. Universal Electronics, Trial No. IPR2014-01146
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`
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`dig down to the '207. But, generally speaking, I want
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`to know what your understanding of the definition of
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`Page 11
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`universal remote control is.
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` A. I think generally --
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` MR. BARKAUS: Objection. He didn't ask a
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` question.
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` THE WITNESS: I think generally it is a
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` very -- it is a device that can control
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` different types of equipment.
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`BY MR. LEVINSTEIN:
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` Q. Now, with respect to the '207 patents, would
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`your definition of what a universal control is change?
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` MR. BARKAUS: Objection to form.
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` THE WITNESS: It is certainly a type of
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` device that can control different types of
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` equipment. That is certainly what the '207
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` patent is about to be able to do that, so I
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` believe that would still fit.
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`BY MR. LEVINSTEIN:
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` Q. In any of your prior retentions as an expert
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`witness, or I take that back, any prior retentions to
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`provide consulting or expert testimony or what have
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`you, using your definition of universal remote
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`control, did you provide any design help or consulting
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`Universal Electronics Exhibit 2030, Page 11
`Universal Remote Control v. Universal Electronics, Trial No. IPR2014-01146
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`on the features of the universal remote control you
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`were working on?
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` MR. BARKAUS: Objection to form, compound.
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`Page 12
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` THE WITNESS: Yes.
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`BY MR. LEVINSTEIN:
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` Q. Can you give an example of one time you were
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`providing design consulting work for a universal
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`remote control?
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` A. Sure. One example is I worked with a company
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`that provided systems for concrete trucks, and one of
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`the issues that they had was to be able to operate
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`different functions on the concrete truck to deliver
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`the supply and control slump ratios and various
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`aspects of the concrete-making process. And one of
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`the projects I was involved with was to design a
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`controller that someone could use outside the truck
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`vehicle to be able to control those processes.
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` Q. Is it fair to say that the work that you did
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`with this company did not relate to universal remote
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`controls for consumer electronics devices?
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` MR. BARKAUS: Objection to form, vague.
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` THE WITNESS: Well, certainly the things
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` that this controller was controlling were not
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` audio entertainment systems or those sorts of
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`Universal Electronics Exhibit 2030, Page 12
`Universal Remote Control v. Universal Electronics, Trial No. IPR2014-01146
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`Page 13
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` things. These were components that would be
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` pieces of equipment that would be communicated
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` with and configured in certain ways very
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` similar to an entertainment system, but they
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` were not necessarily consumer electronics
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` components such as an audio system.
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`BY MR. LEVINSTEIN:
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` Q. Were you finished? I wasn't sure.
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` A. I am finished.
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` Q. Can you give me an example of the time you did
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`design work for a controller that was used to control
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`consumer electronics components?
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` MR. BARKAUS: Objection to form.
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` THE WITNESS: I was involved with
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` Scientific Atlanta as a consultant roughly ten
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` years ago, and I provided some training for
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` them and also some consulting, and I can
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` remember them. And they make set-top boxes
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` for entertainment systems, and I remember some
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` of the discussions around using universal
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` controllers and some of the impacts over the
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` radio signals that were going to be used in
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` the system.
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`BY MR. LEVINSTEIN:
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`Universal Electronics Exhibit 2030, Page 13
`Universal Remote Control v. Universal Electronics, Trial No. IPR2014-01146
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`Page 14
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` Q. Were you involved in the design work of the
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`universal remote controls to be used with those
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`systems?
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` A. I think that would count as being involved in
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`the design because that is what they were considering
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`to do, and I was part of those discussions.
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` Q. I guess I am not following. What was the
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`nature of the work you did for, you said it was
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`Scientific Atlanta?
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` A. That is correct.
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` Q. What was the nature of the work you did for
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`Scientific Atlanta?
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` MR. BARKAUS: Objection to form, vague.
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` THE WITNESS: The nature of the work dealt
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` with -- I was consulting for the company.
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` They hired me as a consultant to provide
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` guidance on how to integrate wireless into
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` various types of components.
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`BY MR. LEVINSTEIN:
`
` Q. One of those components was this universal
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`remote control?
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` A. They were discussing the idea of using or
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`developing universal remote control that could work
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`with their system, and I was at meetings when they
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`Universal Remote Control v. Universal Electronics, Trial No. IPR2014-01146
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`discussed this and provided insight into the wireless
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`technologies that could be used in that type of
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`controller.
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` Q. When you said you discussed the types of
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`wireless technologies that could be used with that
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`type of controller, did that also include the features
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`or functions of the remote control?
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` MR. BARKAUS: Objection to form, compound.
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` THE WITNESS: I remember them talking
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` about some of the things that they wanted to
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` control on the remote controller. I was
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` primarily helping them with the wireless
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` aspects of it, but I was there when they were
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` discussing these other components, so I was
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` involved in that design.
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`BY MR. LEVINSTEIN:
`
` Q. So you were there when they were discussing
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`the features of the remote controls, but your
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`expertise was relating to the wireless technologies,
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`correct?
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` MR. BARKAUS: Objection to form.
`
` THE WITNESS: It was related to wireless
`
` technologies but how those would interact with
`
` these other components, so I was also giving
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`Universal Remote Control v. Universal Electronics, Trial No. IPR2014-01146
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` them advice on what to do with these
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` particular pieces of equipment that were
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` being controlled.
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`BY MR. LEVINSTEIN:
`
` Q. You mentioned set-top boxes. Were there any
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`other types of equipment that were intended to be
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`controlled?
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` A. Yeah, they were looking at having the set-top
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`box control various types of equipment, such as
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`television sets.
`
` Q. Taking a step back, going to your background,
`
`do you have any legal training?
`
` A. What do you mean by legal training?
`
` Q. Did you go to law school?
`
` A. I attended a couple of semesters of law school.
`
` Q. Oh, you did?
`
` A. And I changed my mind.
`
` Q. Where did you go?
`
` A. I was working on my degree through an online
`
`program.
`
` Q. What made you change your mind?
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` A. I decided that, well, it was something I
`
`enjoyed, but I was too busy with the technical aspects
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`of my work, which at the time was making a lot of
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`Universal Remote Control v. Universal Electronics, Trial No. IPR2014-01146
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`money, so I decided to stay working with that.
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` Q. Did you take any patent law classes during
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`Page 17
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`your time in law school?
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` A. No.
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` Q. Do you have any other types of legal training,
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`certifications, for example?
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` MR. BARKAUS: Objection, compound.
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` THE WITNESS: What do you mean by
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` certifications?
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`BY MR. LEVINSTEIN:
`
` Q. Did you take any course work, legal course
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`work?
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` A. The only thing I have had related to that I
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`can remember -- of course I have had training.
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`Depends on how you define training, but I have been
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`instructed on various aspects of the cases and how
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`they operate and what takes place. But one of the
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`cases I was involved with with the ITC, I was working
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`with Microsoft and they required me to attend a trial
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`preparation course.
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` Q. Do you have any patents?
`
` A. No.
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` Q. You are not a listed inventor on any patent?
`
` A. I am on an application, but it is not one that
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`has been finalized.
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` Q. Can you briefly describe the, if you can, the
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`subject matter of that application?
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` MR. BARKAUS: Objection to form.
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` THE WITNESS: In general, it deals with
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` Wi-Fi, with the idea of roaming, so it is a
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` roaming protocol for Wi-Fi.
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`BY MR. LEVINSTEIN:
`
` Q. I apologize because I clearly don't know
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`nearly as much as you.
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` What is a roaming protocol for Wi-Fi?
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` A. Well, in a Wi-Fi network there would be access
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`points that you can communicate to or connect with,
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`and the patent deals with roaming technologies to be
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`able to roam from one access point to another.
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` Q. Is it fair to say that your patent application
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`doesn't involve universal remote control technology?
`
` MR. BARKAUS: Objection to form.
`
` THE WITNESS: I think the nature of that
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` would be in wireless. Certainly remote
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` controls are wireless, so it has a wireless
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` aspect to it. So I wouldn't say that it
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` doesn't have anything to do with remote
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` controls.
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`BY MR. LEVINSTEIN:
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` Q. Is it your opinion that so long as wireless
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`technology is somehow implicated, that is related to
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`universal remote controls?
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` MR. BARKAUS: Objection to the form,
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` vague, misstates prior testimony.
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` THE WITNESS: I think certainly a remote
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` control has wireless features on it and the
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` wireless technology is part of that. It could
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` be infrared or radio based. That is a
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` wireless type of technology that the remote
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` controller can provide.
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`BY MR. LEVINSTEIN:
`
` Q. Again, I just want to make sure I understand.
`
`Because universal remote controls utilize wireless
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`technology, anything related to wireless technology is
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`related to universal remote controls; is that right?
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` MR. BARKAUS: Objection to form.
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` THE WITNESS: I wouldn't say anything is,
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` but certainly wireless is a part of a remote
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` controller, so wireless technology is part of
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` that. There is wireless devices that may not
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` control anything and they may just receive
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` information, but certainly the wireless is
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` part of that remote controller.
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`BY MR. LEVINSTEIN:
`
` Q. Were you familiar with the Petitioner, URC,
`
`prior to your retention in this proceeding, along with
`
`the other related IPR proceedings?
`
` MR. BARKAUS: Objection to form, vague,
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` compound.
`
` THE WITNESS: I don't remember their name
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` before having this, before being involved with
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` this case.
`
`BY MR. LEVINSTEIN:
`
` Q. Let's ask, how did you come to be involved in
`
`this IPR proceeding?
`
` A. I believe Mr. Barkaus here contacted me and
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`asked if I could be involved to provide some opinions
`
`in the case, went through the IPR process.
`
` Q. So that was the first time that you had become
`
`aware of URC?
`
` A. Yeah, if my memory serves me right. I just
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`didn't recall that name when he first mentioned it. I
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`may have seen the name before, but I didn't remember
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`that name. It wasn't a company I had dealt with
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`regularly.
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` Q. You said it wasn't a company that you dealt
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`with regularly. Was it a company that you had dealt
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`with at all prior to your --
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` A. No, I have not dealt with them before, before
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`this.
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` Q. Same question for the patent owner. Prior to
`
`your involvement in this IPR proceeding, were you
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`familiar or aware of, rather, Universal Electronics, Inc.?
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` MR. BARKAUS: Objection to form.
`
` THE WITNESS: Again, I had not dealt with
`
` them before and I was not familiar with them.
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` I didn't recognize that name.
`
`BY MR. LEVINSTEIN:
`
` Q. Who are the major competitors in the universal
`
`remote control field?
`
` MR. BARKAUS: Objection to form, vague.
`
` THE WITNESS: You know, I imagine there's
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` some -- we have remote controllers at home so
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` I am familiar with these remote controllers.
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` I don't remember the names that are on them.
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` I think I remember seeing Sony on one of them.
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` I don't remember exactly the names.
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` I have used a lot of remote controllers
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` with our home entertainment systems, but I
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` don't remember seeing a name on them. It has
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` been a while since we purchased them.
`
`BY MR. LEVINSTEIN:
`
` Q. Aside from your personal experiences with
`
`remote controls, do you know who the major competitors
`
`are in the universal remote control field?
`
` A. I don't think I can name exactly who they are, no.
`
` Q. Could you name any one company that's a major
`
`company in the universal remote control field?
`
` MR. BARKAUS: Objection to form, vague.
`
` THE WITNESS: Aside from this case, I
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` can't think of any. Again, I have remote
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` controllers that we have at home. I could
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` look at those and tell you what the names are,
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` but I don't remember what their names are.
`
`BY MR. LEVINSTEIN:
`
` Q. Very good.
`
` I am putting before you what has been marked
`
`as Exhibit 1055 in this IPR proceeding, IPR 2014-1146.
`
` MR. LEVINSTEIN: And I apologize, Doug, I
`
` don't have enough extra copies for you.
`
` Q. Do you have Exhibit 1055 in front of you,
`
`Mr. Geier?
`
` A. Okay.
`
` Q. What is that?
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` A. This looks like it is my reply declaration.
`
` Q. Could you thumb through it, make sure it looks
`
`complete?
`
` A. I had done that when we were, when I was
`
`sitting here and you gave it to me. It looks like it
`
`is complete.
`
` Q. If you could turn to Appendix A.
`
` Are you there?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. So this is your CV, correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Does the word universal remote control appear
`
`anywhere in your CV? Feel free to review it, if you
`
`need to.
`
` A. I am fairly familiar with my CV.
`
` Q. I figured.
`
` A. You know, those exact words may not appear in
`
`my CV, but I certainly have experience dealing with
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`remote controllers and systems that are much more
`
`complex in dealing with entertainment systems. So, as
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`you can see from the body of my CV, that sort of
`
`speaks for itself.
`
` Q. Sure, and I certainly didn't intend to malign
`
`your experiences here. That certainly wasn't my
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`Universal Remote Control v. Universal Electronics, Trial No. IPR2014-01146
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`intent.
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` But, just to be clear, nothing on your CV
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`relates to any work that you have done in the
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`universal remote control field for entertainment
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`systems, correct?
`
` MR. BARKAUS: Objection, misstates prior
`
` testimony.
`
` THE WITNESS: Again, as I stated before, I
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` have not -- these experiences here don't
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` relate to entertainment systems, specifically
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` to entertainment systems.
`
`BY MR. LEVINSTEIN:
`
` Q. I did note, by the way, your extensive
`
`military service, so I thank you for your service.
`
` A. Thank you.
`
` Q. If you look on the second page of Appendix A --
`
` A. Okay.
`
` Q. -- that's actually labeled page 12 of
`
`Exhibit 1055 at the bottom, if you see that.
`
` A. Oh, I see it, yes.
`
` Q. Just in case something we look at isn't
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`paginated on the document, you will see that kind of
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`footer at the bottom should help you out.
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` If you look at, there is a heading for book
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`Universal Remote Control v. Universal Electronics, Trial No. IPR2014-01146
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`publications?
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` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Do you see that?
`
` There is a list of, I don't know, about 15
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`book publications on this page and the next page, right?
`
` A. That's, that sounds right.
`
` Q. Do any of these publications relate to
`
`universal remote controls for entertainment systems?
`
` MR. BARKAUS: Objection to form, vague.
`
` THE WITNESS: Certainly in these
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` publications I have talked about applications,
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` and I don't remember if I specifically
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` discussed using wireless technology or any
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` aspects of remote controlled entertainment
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` systems.
`
`BY MR. LEVINSTEIN:
`
` Q. As you sit here today, you don't recall
`
`specifically whether these book, any of these book
`
`publications specifically call out universal remote
`
`controls as applied to entertainment system, right?
`
` MR. BARKAUS: Objection to form.
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` THE WITNESS: As I mentioned before, it
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` may not explicitly say entertainment system in
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` any of my books, but certainly the
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`Page 26
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` technologies discussed there are part of
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` universal remote controls.
`
`BY MR. LEVINSTEIN:
`
` Q. Turn to page four of Appendix A.
`
` MR. BARKAUS: Counsel, just to make things
`
` easier, should we just agree to refer to the
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` pages on the bottom of the exhibit just so that
`
` we all look at the same thing at the same time?
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` MR. LEVINSTEIN: Yes, that is fine. I am
`
` sure I am going to forget at least once or
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` twice --
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` MR. BARKAUS: I will remind you, don't worry.
`
` MR. LEVINSTEIN: -- during t
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