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` IN THE UNITED STATES PATENT AND
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` TRADEMARK OFFICE
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` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`Case No: IPR2014-01102
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`U.S. Patent No: 5,228,077
`
`_________________________________
`
`Case No: IPR2014-01103
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`U.S. Patent No: 5,552,917
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`_________________________________
`
`Case No: IPR2014-01104
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`U.S. Patent No: 5,414,761
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`__________________________________
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`Case No: IPR2014-01106
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`U.S. Patent No: 5,255,313
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`__________________________________
`
`Case No: IPR2014-01109
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`U.S. Patent No: 7,831,930
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`___________________________________
`
` Deposition of ALEX COOK, taken
`
`before LAURA MUKAHIRN, CSR, RPR, CRR, at
`
`One South Dearborn Street, in the City of
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`Chicago, Cook County, Illinois, commencing
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`at 9:00 o'clock a.m. on the 16th day of
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`June, 2015.
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` VOLUME II
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`877-479-2484
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`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT, INC. www.uslegalsupport.com
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`Universal Remote Control Exhibit: 1053 Page 000001
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`A P P E A R A N C E S:
`
` OSTROLENK FABER LLP
`
` 1180 Avenue of the Americas
`
` New York, New York 10036
`
` (212)382-0700
`
` BY: MR. KEITH BARKAUS
`
` -AND-
`
` SIDLEY AUSTIN
`
` 1001 Page Mill Road
`
` Building 1
`
` Palo Alto, California 94304
`
` (650)565-7006
`
` BY: MR. PETER H. KANG
`
` MR. FERENC PAZMANDI
`
` Appeared on behalf of Universal
`
` Remote Control, Inc.;
`
` GREENBERG TRAURIG, LLP
`
` 77 West Wacker Drive
`
`12
`
` Suite 2500
`
` Chicago, Illinois 60601
`
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` (312) 456-8451
`
` BY: MR. ERIC J. MAIERS
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` Appeared on behalf of Universal
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` Electronics, Inc.
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`Universal Remote Control Exhibit: 1053 Page 000002
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`[Page 268]
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` I N D E X
` Examinations Page
`Cross-Examination 271
`By Mr. Kang
`
` E X H I B I T S
` No. Page
` Exhibit No. 1034 271
` (Universal Remote Control Exhibit
` No. 1034, URC v. UEI Trial Nos. IPR
` 2014-01102, IPR 2014-01103, IPR
` 2014-01104, IPR 2014-01106)
` Exhibit 1001 273
` (Universal Remote Control Exhibit
` 1001 U.S. Patent 5,552,917)
`
` Exhibit 1001 274
` (Universal Remote Control Exhibit
` 1001 U.S. Patent 5,414,761)
`
` Exhibit 1001 274
` (Universal Remote Control Exhibit
` 1001 U.S. Patent 5,228,077)
` Exhibit 1001 274
` (Universal Remote Control Exhibit
` 1001 U.S. Patent 5,255,313)
` 275
` Exhibit 2029
` (Universal Remote Control Exhibit
` 2029, Declarations)
` Exhibit 1005 337
` (Universal Remote Control Exhibit
` 1005)
` Exhibit 1035 347
` (Universal Remote Control Exhibit
` No. 1035, URC v. UEI Trial Nos. IPR
` 2014-01102, IPR 2014-01103, IPR
` 2014-01104, IPR 2014-01106)
`
` Exhibit 1036 347
` (Universal Remote Control Exhibit
` No. 1036, URC v. UEI Trial Nos. IPR
` 2014-01102, IPR 2014-01103, IPR
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`Universal Remote Control Exhibit: 1053 Page 000003
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`[Page 269]
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` EXHIBITS: (Continued)
` Exhibit 1037
` (Universal Remote Control Exhibit 84
` No. 1037, URC v. UEI Trial Nos. IPR
` 2014-01102, IPR 2014-01103, IPR
` 2014-01104, IPR 2014-01106)
` Exhibit 1038 348
` (Universal Remote Control Exhibit
` No. 1038, URC v. UEI Trial Nos. IPR
` 2014-01102, IPR 2014-01103, IPR
` 2014-01104, IPR 2014-01106)
`
` Exhibit 1039 348
` (Universal Remote Control Exhibit
` No. 1039, URC v. UEI Trial Nos. IPR
` 2014-01102, IPR 2014-01103, IPR
` 2014-01104, IPR 2014-01106)
`
` Exhibit 1040 348
` (Universal Remote Control Exhibit
` No. 1040, URC v. UEI Trial Nos. IPR
` 2014-01102, IPR 2014-01103, IPR
` 2014-01104, IPR 2014-01106)
` 349
` Exhibit 1041
` (Universal Remote Control Exhibit
` No. 1041, URC v. UEI Trial Nos. IPR
` 2014-01102, IPR 2014-01103, IPR
` 2014-01104, IPR 2014-01106)
`
` Exhibit 1042 349
` (Universal Remote Control Exhibit
` No. 1042, URC v. UEI Trial Nos. IPR
` 2014-01102, IPR 2014-01103, IPR
` 2014-01104, IPR 2014-01106)
` Exhibit 1043 370
` (Universal Remote Control Exhibit
` No. 1043, URC v. UEI Trial Nos. IPR
` 2014-01102, IPR 2014-01103, IPR
` 2014-01104, IPR 2014-01106)
` Exhibit 1004 424
` (United States Patent No.
` 4,667,181)
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`Universal Remote Control Exhibit: 1053 Page 000004
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` EXHIBITS: (Continued)
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` Exhibit 1044 484
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` (Universal Remote Control Exhibit
`
` No. 1044, URC v. UEI Trial Nos. IPR
`
` 2014-01102, IPR 2014-01103, IPR
`
` 2014-01104, IPR 2014-01106)
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` Exhibit 1045 497
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` (Universal Remote Control Exhibit
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` No. 1034, URC v. UEI Trial Nos. IPR
`
` 2014-01102, IPR 2014-01103, IPR
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` 2014-01104, IPR 2014-01106)
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` (Document marked as
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` Exhibit No. 1034 for
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` identification.)
`
` (Witness previously
`
` sworn.)
`
` ALEX COOK,
`
` called as a witness herein, having been
`
` first duly sworn, was examined and
`
` testified further as follows:
`
` Cross-Examination
`
` By Mr. Kang
`
` Q. Good morning, Mr. Cook.
`
` A. Good morning.
`
` Q. You understand you're still
`
` under oath?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. My name is Peter Kang. We met
`
` yesterday. And I represent URC, the
`
` petitioner in this case. Before we
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` started, I premarked Exhibit 1034 which is
`
` in front of you which is entitled
`
` Petitioner's Notice of Deposition of Alex
`
` Cook. Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. And --
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` MR. MAIERS: Which one is 1034?
`
` I'm sorry.
`
` MR. KANG: It's the deposition
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` notice.
`
` BY MR. KANG:
`
` Q. And so this is the deposition
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` notice with the caption for IPR 2014-01102.
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And that is the IPR for the
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` U.S. Patent No. 5,228,077?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. And if I refer to that
`
` patent as the '077 patent, will you
`
` understand what I'm referring to?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And if I refer to this IPR
`
` proceeding as the 1102 proceeding, you'll
`
` understand that's what I'm referring to?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Instead of saying the entire
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` document number?
`
` A. Okay.
`
` Q. And in the deposition notice it
`
` indicates that this is a consolidation of
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` the depositions for IPR 2014-1103, IPR
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` 2014-1104, IPR 2014-1106, and 1109 and
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` 1146. Do you see that on Page 2?
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` A. Yes, I do.
`
` Q. So you are here to testify
`
` on -- in response to my questions on the
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` IPR proceedings 1102, 1103, 1104, and 1106,
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` correct?
`
` A. Okay. Yes.
`
` Q. All right. And so, again,
`
` before we got on the record, I gave you one
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` copy of each of your declarations for each
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` of those matters and one copy of each of
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` the patents in those matters. Do you see
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` those?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. So just for
`
` identification purposes, in IPR 1103, the
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` patent at issue is Darbee Patent 5,552,917,
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` which is Exhibit 1001 in that matter. Do
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` you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. And we already
`
` identified the '077 patent as the Darbee
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` Patent in the 1102 matter, right?
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` A. Right.
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` Q. And in front -- and that's also
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` Exhibit 1001 in that IPR matter, correct?
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` A. Correct.
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` Q. IPR matter 1104, the patent at
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` issue is U.S. Patent 5,414,761. Do you see
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` that?
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` A. Yes. I do.
`
` Q. Okay. And that patent, '761
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` patent, is also Exhibit 1001 in the 1104
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` matter, correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. All right. And then, finally,
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` in IPR matter docket No. 1106, the patent
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` at issue is Darbee U.S. Patent 5,255,313.
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` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes, I do.
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` Q. Okay. And that '313 patent is
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` also Exhibit 1001, but in 1106 docket
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` number, correct?
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. Okay. If I refer to the '917,
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` '077, '761, and '313 patents as the Darbee
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` Patents, will you understand that that's
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` what I'm referring to?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. And then for identification
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` purposes, your declaration in each of the
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` IPR matters for each of the Darbee Patents
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` is Exhibit 2029 in each of the respective
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` docket numbers, correct?
`
` A. Yes. Correct.
`
` Q. So we've got your -- the four
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` declarations in front of you for the four
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` Darbee Patent IPRs, the four Darbee Patents
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` themselves, and we have them all identified
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` by exhibit number, I think, correct?
`
` A. Okay. Correct.
`
` Q. Okay. How much time did you
`
` spend writing your declarations for the IPR
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` matters 1102, 3, 4, and 6?
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` A. I don't recall the exact
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` amount. There's a lot of common material
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` here, as you can see. And so some of those
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` were -- would look at one thing that's
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` common across the patent and write that.
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` So I'm not really sure to tell the number.
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` Q. Approximately?
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` A. I don't recall. It was done
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` over a period of five or six weeks, and I
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` mean -- yeah. I just I apologize. I don't
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` recall. It was a significant amount of
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` time.
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` Q. Approximately when did you
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` start working on the declarations for the
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` four IPR matters for the Darbee Patents?
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` A. As I testified yesterday, I
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` received all of these materials together
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` sometime in February, I think. It could
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` have been even late January, or early
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` February, the patents to review first. And
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` I reviewed, because I had to do this as
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` time was available, weekends, evenings,
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` that kind of thing, it was over a period of
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` weeks. These were all filed in April. The
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` others were filed in late March. And so I
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` gave some priority to the late March, but
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` at the same time I was switching back and
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` forth between. So it's difficult for me to
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` say exactly what went into these.
`
` Q. For brevity then, to the extent
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` you testified to your process for working
`
` on your declaration for the '930 patent
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` yesterday, will that testimony apply to the
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` process you used for the declarations for
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` A. Yes, it does. Yes.
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` Q. So, again, you had no one
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` assisting you for the declarations for the
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` Darbee Patents?
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` A. No. That's right.
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` Q. You communicated with counsel
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` for UEI, but no inventors and no --
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` A. That's correct.
`
` Q. No one else?
`
` A. That's correct.
`
` Q. All right. For the record,
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` let's try not to talk over each other.
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` A. Okay.
`
` Q. Madam Reporter may get upset.
`
` With respect to the
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` declarations for the four Darbee Patents,
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` did you type them completely yourself and
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` then have them reformatted by counsel for
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` UEI?
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` A. Yes. I typed the details, and
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` then sent it in to the counsel. They put
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` it in this format, passed it back, I
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` reviewed it, and --
`
` Q. Were there any edits or changes
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` made to your declarations between the
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` time -- other than formatting, were there
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` any substantive changes to the content of
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` your declarations between the time you sent
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` it to counsel for UEI and then you got it
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` back -- or got them back?
`
` A. I don't recall any substantive
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` changes. I think everything that I defined
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` initially -- I think the only changes where
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` I would come back -- I think there was an
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` edit or two where I came back and I didn't
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` like the way I had worded something in a
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` paragraph. When I came back and read it
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` later, I thought that maybe it wasn't as
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` clear, and so I may have reworded it. But
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` no substantive changes.
`
` Q. Was there substantive text that
`
` you had wanted to put in any of your Darbee
`
` Patent IPR declarations that eventually you
`
` chose not to?
`
` A. No. I don't think so.
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` MR. MAIERS: Objection. That
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` would relate to draft opinion reports which
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` are not discoverable and privileged.
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` MR. KANG: Seeing if they even
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` existed. If they don't exist, that's not
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` an issue.
`
` BY MR. KANG:
`
` Q. Let's turn to the four Darbee
`
` Patents Exhibit 1001 in each of the IPRs.
`
` Had you read all four of the Darbee Patents
`
` prior to signing your declarations?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Cover to cover?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And then in -- For example, in
`
` each of your declarations you indicate you
`
` reviewed the file histories for each of the
`
` Darbee Patents?
`
` A. I did.
`
` Q. If you look at the cover sheet
`
` of any one of the Darbee Patents, they're
`
` all continuations or divisionals of prior
`
` applications. Do you see that?
`
` A. That's right. Yes.
`
` Q. Did you review the file
`
` histories of those parent or related
`
` applications?
`
` A. I reviewed the '810 patent
`
` itself. I did not go back and review the
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` file history of the '810 patent.
`
` Q. Okay. Did you review the file
`
` history of -- for example, if you look at
`
` the '917 patent it is a divisional of a
`
` continuation which is a divisional of the
`
` 810 patent which is then a continuation in
`
` part of a 1987 abandoned application. Do
`
` you see that?
`
` A. I see that. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. So did you review the
`
` file history of Serial No. 586957?
`
` A. No. I would have reviewed the
`
` file history of '917 is my recollection. I
`
` don't think I reviewed the others.
`
` Q. Okay. So other than the '810
`
` patent itself, for purposes of your
`
` declarations in the Darbee IPR matters, you
`
` did not read or review the file histories
`
` of the parent applications; is that
`
` correct?
`
` MR. MAIERS: Objection. Form.
`
` THE WITNESS: That's correct.
`
` BY MR. KANG:
`
` Q. So it's fair to say your claim
`
` construction of the Darbee Patents at issue
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` does not take into account any of the
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` parent file histories of any of the Darbee
`
` Patents?
`
` A. I'm sorry. Could you repeat
`
` that?
`
` Q. It's fair to say your claim
`
` construction of the Darbee Patents in these
`
` four IPRs does not take into account the
`
` file histories of the parent or related
`
` applications to the four Darbee Patents,
`
` correct?
`
` MR. MAIERS: Objection.
`
` Compound.
`
` THE WITNESS: So, as I said, I
`
` didn't review those. So obviously I can't
`
` take them into account.
`
` BY MR. KANG:
`
` Q. Right. Was there anything in
`
` your review of the '810 patent that
`
` impacted your claim construction of any of
`
` the four Darbee Patents? Just for the
`
` record the '810 patent is 4,595,810.
`
` A. I'm not sure how to answer
`
` that. Obviously the -- These are
`
` continuations, some of other things, but
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` continuations of '810. So did I consider
`
` '810 in my conclusions? Yes. I read '810.
`
` I saw what was in '810. I understand what
`
` changed it to, you know, was continued to
`
` these. So in that sense, yes, '810
`
` influenced what I had written.
`
` Q. Do you recall making any
`
` specific effort to distinguish the claim
`
` construction of the four Darbee Patents at
`
` issue here as compared to the claims of the
`
` '810 patent?
`
` A. No. I don't recall doing that.
`
` Q. Have you ever spoken with
`
` Mr. Darbee about any of his four patents at
`
` issue here?
`
` A. I don't recall ever having
`
` discussed these patents with Mr. Darbee at
`
` all.
`
` Q. Have you ever discussed the
`
` '810 patent with Mr. Darbee?
`
` A. I don't believe the patents, in
`
` any discussions I would have ever had with
`
` Mr. Darbee, I don't believe any of the
`
` patents have ever come up. The -- The only
`
` thing I can remember him saying about
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` patents was what a pain they were. And so
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` it was not something that he would have
`
` discussed. He loved the technology, but he
`
` hated this process.
`
` Q. Have you ever heard any of his
`
` testimony from any litigations concerning
`
` any of his patents?
`
` A. I've worked on several cases
`
` that we discussed yesterday. It's possible
`
` in one of those cases somewhere -- I don't
`
` remember everything I read in those cases.
`
` It's possible that may have happened. But
`
` nothing would have -- nothing would have
`
` been in mind that I would have used in
`
` drafting these.
`
` Q. Which was my follow-up
`
` question. So to the extent you may have
`
` even seen or read any testimony from
`
` Mr. Darbee, none of that would have
`
` impacted your claim construction of any of
`
` the four Darbee Patents?
`
` A. No. Yes. That's correct.
`
` Q. On the '917 patent there are
`
` three other co-inventors listed: Richard
`
` Ellis, Louis Jansky, or Ed Avram Grossman.
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` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Do you know any of those three
`
` gentlemen?
`
` A. I probably at one time or
`
` another met Mr. Ellis and Mr. Jansky. I
`
` had never met Mr. Grossman, but I'm aware
`
` of who he is.
`
` Q. Have you ever discussed any
`
` patents with either Mr. Ellis or
`
` Mr. Jansky?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. What context did you meet them?
`
` A. I would have been visiting UEI
`
` when they were a supplier. And if these
`
` gentlemen were there at the time, I might
`
` have been introduced to them. But it would
`
` have been a supplier relationship type
`
` discussion.
`
` Q. If you look, the earliest
`
` application in the chain of any of the four
`
` Darbee Patents goes back to October 1987.
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And you were at SA at the time,
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` correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And at the time UEI was a
`
` supplier to SA, correct?
`
` A. They became a supplier a little
`
` bit later.
`
` Q. Was there any commercial
`
` relationship between UEI and SA in the
`
` October 1987 time frame?
`
` MR. MAIERS: Objection. Form.
`
` THE WITNESS: I'm not sure that
`
` I would be aware of the commercial
`
` relationships between SA and UEI that were
`
` in place at the time. So there could have
`
` been some, but I wouldn't have been aware
`
` of them.
`
` BY MR. KANG:
`
` Q. So you were not -- Put it this
`
` way. Do you have any personal knowledge of
`
` the inventive activity at UEI around
`
` October 1987 related to any of the four
`
` Darbee Patents?
`
` A. I do not.
`
` Q. Okay. So you were not a
`
` percipient witness to any of the inventive
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` activity that led to any of the Darbee
`
` Patents?
`
` A. No, I was not.
`
` Q. The prosecuting attorney for
`
` the Darbee Patents was Thomas Vigil. Do
`
` you see that name?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Have you ever met Mr. Vigil or
`
` spoken with him or communicated with him?
`
` A. I don't recall. I'm certainly
`
` aware who he is. I don't recall having
`
` ever spoken to him. It might have been
`
` possible somewhere in the past, but.
`
` Q. So you've never, to your
`
` recollection, had any communication with
`
` Mr. Vigil about any of the four Darbee
`
` Patents?
`
` A. I have not.
`
` Q. Or any of the patents in the
`
` chain of priority of the Darbee Patents?
`
` A. I have not.
`
` Q. In Paragraph 10 of your -- all
`
` declarations, but I'm using the '917
`
` declaration from the 1103 matter as an
`
` example, you refer to having worked on a
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` litigation between UEI and Remote
`
` Technologies, Inc. Do you see that?
`
` A. I do.
`
` Q. If I refer to Remote
`
` Technologies, Inc. as RTI, will you
`
` understand that that's what I'm referring
`
` to?
`
` A. I will.
`
` Q. Okay. In the RTI case, were
`
` any Darbee Patents at issue?
`
` A. To be honest with you, I do not
`
` recall the details of that case.
`
` Q. It was filed in 2006. And so
`
` the Darbee Patents all issued by that point
`
` in time, correct?
`
` A. That's correct.
`
` Q. Were you deposed in that case?
`
` A. I do not even remember -- It's
`
` possible I was deposed in that case, but I
`
` have virtually no recollection of that.
`
` Q. And you have no recollection of
`
` testifying in court in connection with the
`
` RTI case?
`
` A. No, I don't .
`
` Q. Do you recall who counsel for
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` UEI was in the RTI case?
`
` A. I mean to be honest with you, I
`
` have very little recollection. That's a
`
` point in time where a lot of things were
`
` going on. So I really did not even look
`
` back at that case other than a list of
`
` cases that I had been involved in. And my
`
` recollection would have been Mark Galis
`
` probably if -- because I know that I had
`
` worked with Mark on UEI matters before.
`
` But to be honest with you, I don't remember
`
` very much about that at all.
`
` Q. I don't have it in front of me.
`
` How do you spell Mr. Galis's name?
`
` A. G-A-L-I-S.
`
` Q. What was going on at the time
`
` that makes it difficult to remember any
`
` details about the RTI case?
`
` A. It was very busy business-wise.
`
` My business was changing quite a bit. I
`
` was building products in Korea, and our
`
` market was changing. And I can probably
`
` tell you a lot of details about that, but
`
` this would have been separate work that I
`
` did. And I did not go back and look at
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` this or review this in any way.
`
` Q. Have you been involved in any
`
` reexaminations or other patent proceedings
`
` involving any other Darbee Patents?
`
` MR. MAIERS: Objection. Form.
`
` THE WITNESS: I have been
`
` involved on several items with UEI. I
`
` don't remember the specific patents
`
` involved in any of those cases.
`
` BY MR. KANG:
`
` Q. But other than the four IPRs
`
` that we're talking about today and the
`
` other two at issue, the other three at
`
` issue -- other two at issue, have you been
`
` involved in other either IPRs or patent
`
` office proceedings involving UEI patents?
`
` A. I'm sorry. You'll have to ask
`
` that again.
`
` Q. Sure. Other than the IPRs that
`
` we're talking about during this deposition,
`
` have you been involved in any other patent
`
` office proceedings involving any other UEI
`
` patents?
`
` MR. MAIERS: Objection. Form.
`
` THE WITNESS: It seems like
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` there was a reissue that -- But, again, I
`
` apologize. I just didn't go back and
`
` review any of the details of any of the
`
` items that I've looked at, either in
`
` preparing this or preparing for today.
`
` BY MR. KANG:
`
` Q. Okay. So you don't recall the
`
` patent involved in that UEI reissue?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Do you recall roughly when it
`
` took place?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Do you recall which counsel was
`
` involved?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Do you recall the name of the
`
` first inventor?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Do you remember the subject
`
` matter or the technology?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. So let's, since we've got the
`
` '917 declaration from the 1103 matter open
`
` in front of us, let's stick with that. In
`
` Section 3 of your declaration starting at
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` Paragraph 17, you set forth a number of
`
` legal principles. Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. I know you're not an attorney,
`
` have you ever attempted to take the patent
`
` bar?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. So you've never studied patent
`
` law?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. So you relied on the legal
`
` principles starting at Paragraph 17 of your
`
` declaration through Paragraph 27 in forming
`
` your opinions in this IPR proceeding?
`
` A. I did.
`
` Q. Okay. And did you apply those
`
` same legal principles for all four
`
` declarations for all four Darbee Patents?
`
` A. I did.
`
` Q. You didn't do anything
`
` different for any one of the IPRs in terms
`
` of legal principles?
`
` A. Not for the Darbee Patents.
`
` Q. So in Paragraph 18 you indicate
`
` that the meaning of the terms in the claims
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` in the '917 patent are as of the time that
`
` the patent application leading to the '917
`
` patent was filed. Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. All right. And then in
`
` Paragraph 28 of your declaration you
`
` identify that as 1987?
`
` A. I'm sorry. Let's back up. The
`
` paragraph again? One more time.
`
` Q. Paragraph 18 says that -- gives
`
` you the general statement that the meaning
`
` of the terms of the claims to a person of
`
` ordinary skill in the art or as of the time
`
` the patent application leading to the '917
`
` patent was filed?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. But in Paragraph 28 you
`
` identify that date specifically as 1987,
`
` correct?
`
` MR. MAIERS: Objection to form.
`
` THE WITNESS: I identified the
`
` priority date as 1987 as given to me by
`
` counsel.
`
` BY MR. KANG:
`
` Q. Okay. So did -- Strike that.
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` Did you construe the claims of
`
` the '917 patent as they would be understood
`
` to a person of ordinary skill in the art as
`
` of 1987?
`
` A. Well, the '917 patent was
`
` actually filed in 1994. So I would have
`
` considered the technology in 1994 at that
`
` time. I'm not sure there's any significant
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