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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` TAIWAN SEMICONDUCTOR Patent No. 7,147,759
` MANUFACTURING COMPANY, IPR 2014-00781
` LTD., et al., IPR 2014-00782
` IPR 2014-01083
` Petitioners, IPR 2014-01086
` IPR 2014-01087
`
` vs.
`
` ZOND, LLC,INC.,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
`-----------------------------------------------------
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF LARRY D. HARTSOUGH, Ph.D.
` Berkeley, California
` Wednesday, February 25, 2015
`
`REPORTED BY:
`TAVIA MANNING, CSR No. 13294, CLR, CCRR, RPR
`JOB NO. 90526
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`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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` February 25, 2015
` 9:01 A.M.
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`Page 2
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`Deposition of LARRY D. HARTSOUGH, Ph.D.,
`taken on behalf of Petitioners at 200
`Marina Boulevard, Berkeley, California,
`before Tavia Manning, Certified Shorthand
`Reporter No. 13294, Certified LiveNote
`Reporter, California Certified Realtime
`Reporter, Registered Professional Reporter.
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`APPEARANCES:
`
`FOR TAIWAN SEMICONDUCTOR MANUFACTURING COMPANY,
`LIMITED and TSMC NORTH AMERICA:
` DUANE MORRIS
` BY: ANTHONY FITZPATRICK, ESQ.
` 100 High Street
` Boston, MA 02110
`
` -- and --
`
`FOR TAIWAN SEMICONDUCTOR MANUFACTURING COMPANY,
`LIMITED and TSMC NORTH AMERICA and FUJITSU:
` HAYNES AND BOONE
` BY: GREGORY HUH, ESQ.
` DAVID McCOMBS, ESQ.
` 2505 North Plano Road
` Richardson, TX 75082
`
`///
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`APPEARANCES (CONTINUED):
`
`FOR THE GLOBALFOUNDRIES PETITIONERS:
` WHITE & CASE
` BY: DAVID TENNANT, ESQ.
` BRETT RISMILLER, ESQ.
` 701 Thirteenth Street, N.W.
` Washington, D.C. 20005
`
`APPEARANCES (CONTINUED):
`
`FOR TOSHIBA:
` BAKER BOTTS
` BY: ROBINSON VU, ESQ.
` One Shell Plaza
` 910 Louisiana Street
` Houston, TX 77002
`
`///
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`APPEARANCES (CONTINUED):
`
`FOR THE PATENT OWNER ZOND, LLC:
` RADULESCU
` BY: MICHAEL SADOWITZ, ESQ.
` ETAI LAHAV, ESQ.
` The Empire State Building
` 350 Fifth Avenue
` New York, NY 10118
`
`Also present: Sean McGrath, Videographer
`
` ***
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` BERKELEY, CALIFORNIA;
` WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 25, 2015; 9:01 A.M.
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`Page 6
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning.
` This is the beginning of Disk Number 1 of
`the videotaped deposition of Dr. Larry Hartsough in
`the matter Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing
`Company, Limited, et al., versus Zond, LLC, in the
`U.S. Patent and Trademark Office before the Patent
`Trial and Appeal Board; Case Numbers IPR 2014-00781,
`IPR 2014-00782, IPR 2014-01083, IPR 2014-01086, and
`IPR 2014-01087.
` This deposition is being held at 200 Marina
`Boulevard, Berkeley, California on February 25th,
`2015 at approximately 9:02 a.m.
` My name is Sean McGrath from TSG Reporting,
`Incorporated, and I am the legal video specialist.
` The court reporter is Tavia Manning in
`association with TSG Reporting.
` Will counsel please introduce yourselves
`starting with the questioning attorney.
` MR. FITZPATRICK: Anthony Fitzpatrick, from
`Duane Morris, LLP, on behalf of Taiwan Semiconductor
`Manufacturing Company, Limited, and TSMC North
`America.
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` MR. HUH: Gregory Huh, from Haynes and
`Boone, on behalf of TSMC and Fujitsu.
` MR. McCOMBS: David McCombs, on behalf of
`TSMC, TSMC North America, and Fujitsu.
` MR. TENNANT: David Tennant, from White &
`Case, on behalf of GLOBALFOUNDRIES.
` MR. RISMILLER: Brett Rismiller, from White
`& Case, on behalf of GLOBALFOUNDRIES.
` MR. VU: Robinson Vu, with Baker Botts, on
`behalf of Toshiba.
` MR. SADOWITZ: Michael Sadowitz, with
`Radulescu, and with me is Etai Lahav, also from
`Radulescu, representing the patent owner and the
`witness.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Is there anyone on the
`phone?
` Will the reporter please swear in the
`witness, and we can proceed.
`
` LARRY D. HARTSOUGH,
` having been first duly sworn by the reporter,
` testified as follows:
`
`//
`//
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` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
` Q. Good morning, Doctor.
` A. Good morning.
` Q. Would you please state your full name for
`the record.
` A. Would you please speak up just a little
`bit.
` Q. I'm sorry. I'll try again today.
` Would you please state your full name for
`the record?
` A. Larry Dowd Hartsough.
` Q. And I know you've been deposed several
`times in the last couple of weeks, but I'll just go
`over the ground rules because that may be helpful.
` You understand that you've taken an oath to
`tell the truth today?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And your testimony will be truthful?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And your answers to my questions will be
`complete?
` A. Yes.
` Q. You understand that you are required to
`answer my questions even if your counsel objects,
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`unless your counsel instructs you not to answer?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Have you ingested anything that could
`impair your ability to testify truthfully and fully
`today?
` A. No.
` Q. If you, at any point, don't understand any
`question or you haven't fully heard it, will you
`please let me know?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And if you answer a question, then I'll
`assume that you've heard it fully and understood it.
` Is that fair?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What did you do to prepare for today's
`deposition?
` A. I met with counsel and reviewed some of the
`prior art and relevant documents, such as my
`declaration and the patents -- declarations and
`patents.
` Q. When did you meet with counsel?
` A. Over the last three days, Sunday through
`Tuesday.
` Q. And for how long each day?
` A. About 20 hours all together.
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` Q. Over the three days?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. And which items of prior art did you review
`in preparation for this deposition?
` A. Mainly the prior art cited in the grounds
`by the Board. I may not be able to list them all
`off the top of my head, but --
` Q. Can you list any of them?
` A. By -- not by a full title, but the Wang
`patents -- yes, I can list some of them.
` Q. Okay. Please do.
` A. As I said, it's not exhaustive because I
`don't -- didn't memorize the list, memorize what I
`looked at, but the Wang patents and the Kudryavtsev
`article and Mozgrin's thesis and a Yamaguchi patent
`and several more that I can't recall the names of
`the authors right at this moment.
` Q. And other than those pieces of prior art
`and your declaration and the '759 patent, did you
`review any other documents in preparation for this
`deposition?
` A. Well, as I told you, the list of prior art
`that I gave you is not -- not complete. I didn't
`review any documents that have not been listed as
`relevant to the case.
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` Q. You --
` A. As I said, I don't -- I may have briefly
`referred to other documents for specific, narrow
`items. But those would have been listed in, you
`know, as -- as part of the case already. There was
`nothing outside of that scope.
` Q. When you say "listed as part of the case,"
`are you referring to documents that would have been
`identified in your declaration?
` A. There may have been a document listed in my
`declaration that I didn't review in the last -- that
`I didn't review.
` Q. I understand.
` I'm just trying to understand which
`documents you looked at in preparing to testify here
`today.
` And so my question is: Is everything that
`you looked at in preparing for the deposition either
`listed in the declaration or the declaration itself?
` MR. SADOWITZ: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: I am not sure I -- is
`everything that I looked at?
`BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
` Q. In preparing for today's deposition.
` A. Again, I am not sure I can answer that
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`question without looking at both my declaration and
`what -- what documents are -- what documents are --
`were listed as the grounds by the Board for the
`various claims to see if I looked at any documents
`that were outside of that.
` Q. You understand that today's deposition
`pertains to United States Patent Number 7,147,759?
` A. That's -- yes.
` Q. And if I refer to that as the '759 patent,
`you will know what I am referring to?
` A. Yes.
` Q. I am going to hand you what has been marked
`already as Exhibit 2005. Please take a look at it
`and tell me if you recognize it.
` A. Yes.
` Q. What is it?
` A. It's my declaration in regard to the '759
`patent.
` Q. And on the last page of the declaration, it
`doesn't have a page number, but it's page 100, I
`believe.
` Is that your signature?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Do you know why it is that the preceding
`pages of the declaration have page numbers but your
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`signature page does not?
` A. No, I wasn't responsible for pagination.
` Q. Did you sign this declaration on
`December 30, 2014?
` A. Yes.
` Q. If you could please look at paragraph 3 of
`the declaration on page 1.
` That paragraph begins:
` "The list of materials I considered in
` forming the opinions set forth in this
` declaration includes" -- and then it lists
` various documents.
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What other documents or materials did you
`consider in forming the opinions set forth in your
`declaration?
` A. As I said, I would have to review the prior
`art references discussed, as I don't remember all of
`them off the top of my head. I can't make a list.
` So, you know, I can't just answer that
`question as I sit here today. I can't answer that
`question, "what other documents," unless I eliminate
`whether they're part of this list or not -- whether
`I determined whether they're part of this listing
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`here or not.
` Q. Well, you -- presumably you reviewed the
`Wang patent in connection with forming your opinions
`relating to the '759 patent; right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And you reviewed the Kudryavtsev article or
`paper in connection with the '759 patent; is that
`correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And you reviewed the Yamaguchi reference in
`connection with the '759 patent?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And you reviewed the Müller-Horsche
`reference in connection with the '759 patent, if you
`look at page 87 of your declaration?
` A. Yes.
` That's to answer your question. Yes, I
`looked at the Müller-Horsche.
` Q. And did you look at the Li, L-I, reference
`in connection with the '759 patent?
` A. When? In the last three days or...
` Q. The questions that I am asking you right
`now, Doctor, pertain to paragraph 3 of your
`declaration, which says that the list of materials
`that you considered in forming the opinions set
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`forth in your declaration includes, and then it
`lists various items.
` A. Yes.
` Q. And I am trying to understand which items
`you considered in forming the opinions set forth in
`your declaration.
` So my question is: Was one of the items
`the Li reference?
` A. I would have to look at -- I -- I -- it's
`been three months, and I don't recall. I would have
`to look at it. But I -- it was material that I
`would have reviewed back in December, and I just --
`I just don't recall the details of it.
` Q. Look at page 86 of your declaration,
`please.
` A. Okay, yeah.
` Q. If you could please read to yourself
`paragraphs 162 and 163 and let me know when you're
`done.
` Does that refresh your memory as to whether
`you reviewed and considered the Li reference in
`connection with the '759 patent?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And you did, in fact, consider it?
` A. Yes.
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` Q. Okay. Now, looking again at paragraph 3 of
`your declaration on page 1.
` Other than the items -- the materials that
`are specifically identified in that paragraph, are
`there any other materials that you considered in
`forming the opinions set forth in your declaration
`concerning the '759 patent?
` A. Not that I -- not that I recall, but I
`might -- might have considered some other materials,
`maybe perhaps to illustrate my opinion. But again,
`at the moment, I don't recall.
` Q. There's nothing at all that you remember
`other than what's identified in paragraph 3?
` MR. SADOWITZ: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Not that I recall at the
`moment.
`BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
` Q. If at any point during the day you remember
`anything, would you please let me know?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Now, directing your attention back to your
`preparation for this deposition, having in mind the
`materials that are identified in paragraph 3 of your
`declaration, is there anything other than your
`declaration itself and the materials identified in
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`paragraph 3 that you reviewed in preparing for your
`deposition?
` A. Again, without a review of -- a summary of
`the prior art references, which I don't have in
`front of me, and comparing that to what I did
`review, I just can't tell you.
` I would have to eliminate the ones that are
`prior art references. But again, I don't -- I don't
`think I did.
` Q. If you remember anything during the course
`of the day, will you please let me know?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Have you reviewed any of the transcripts
`from your prior depositions in the Zond IPR
`proceedings?
` A. I looked briefly at the first one, but I
`did not review the entire transcript. I just looked
`at it briefly.
` Q. When did you look at that?
` A. The day -- it would have been, like, two
`days after I gave it. It was just the -- what do
`you call it? -- the rough.
` So I noted that there were a lot of
`corrections, probably, to some of the technical
`terms and so on, but, you know, other than that,
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`I -- and so that would have been -- I don't remember
`the -- you know, the exact dates, but it would have
`been several days after the -- after that
`deposition.
` Q. Was there any particular portion of that
`transcript that you looked at?
` A. No. I don't recall.
` I looked at it and noted that it was --
`that I wasn't going to have time to do any
`correction -- any review for corrections of
`terminology or anything like that.
` But again, I -- I looked at a portion of
`it, and at this point I don't recall what portion I
`looked at.
` Q. How long did you spend reviewing it?
` A. Maybe 15 or 20 minutes.
` Q. What was your purpose in reviewing it?
` A. Well, it was sent to me, and I wanted to
`see if my answers were kind of -- you know, were
`clear. But I got -- if my answers were clear in
`what I -- in what I really meant to say, but I
`didn't -- I don't recall any -- the specific -- at
`this point, here, I don't recall what specifically I
`looked at.
` Q. Were you -- were you asked to look at it
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`for any particular purpose?
` MR. SADOWITZ: Objection.
` THE WITNESS: No.
` MR. SADOWITZ: Relevance.
` And I caution the witness not to reveal the
`content of any privileged communications. He can
`answer the question without revealing any privileged
`communications.
` You can answer.
` THE WITNESS: No.
`BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
` Q. Other than the transcript from the first
`day of your deposition, have you reviewed any other
`deposition transcripts from your depositions in
`these matters?
` A. No.
` Q. If you would look, please, at paragraph 55
`of your declaration.
` Do you have that in front of you?
` A. Yes.
` Q. So this paragraph reads:
` "To overcome the deficiencies of the prior
` art, Dr. Chistyakov invented a magnetically
` enhanced sputtering source having a
` particular structure of an anode/cathode,
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` ionization source, magnet, and power supply
` generating a particular type of voltage
` pulse to perform a particular multi-step
` ionization process without forming an arc
` discharge as recited in independent Claim 1
` and as illustrated in Figure 2 of the '759
` patent reproduced below."
` And then it's got a reproduction of
`Figure 2; is that correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What did you mean when you referred to a
`"particular structure" in this paragraph of your
`declaration?
` MR. SADOWITZ: Objection;
`mischaracterization.
` THE WITNESS: I didn't hear.
` MR. SADOWITZ: Objection;
`mischaracterization.
` THE WITNESS: There are certain aspects of
`the invention that Dr. Chistyakov describes in the
`patent that are key to the invention, and they are
`particular to the -- they are part of his invention.
`I -- that's it.
`BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
` Q. What are those aspects that are key to the
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`invention?
` A. Well, there are a lot of them, and I would
`like to review the '759 patent itself.
` Q. I am handing you what has been marked as
`TSMC 1201. It's a copy of the '759 patent.
` Please feel free to review it, Doctor.
` But I just want to direct you again to
`paragraph 55 of your declaration and the language
`that you use here: "A particular structure."
` I am asking you now about "a particular
`structure," and I am asking you to explain what you
`meant by that language.
` MR. SADOWITZ: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: (Witness reviewing document.)
` Well, what I mean by that language is that
`there are particular aspects to the structure.
`They're not necessarily all in one embodiment. I
`wanted to make that clear, and that's not my
`complete answer.
` So it's not -- not exhaustively aspects of
`this structure or the relationships between the
`anode and the cathode -- the gas flow -- gas flow
`location and the -- the power supply and what it can
`do.
` But that -- as I said, that's not an
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`exhaustive list.
`BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
` Q. What do you mean by the relationship --
`relationships between the anode and the cathode?
` A. Geometrically, structurally, functionally.
` Q. What do you mean by that?
` A. What I do mean by what?
` Q. What do you mean by "geometrically,
`structurally and functionally"?
` A. Where they are in relationship to one
`another and their role in the parameters of the
`claimed -- the claimed process of generating the
`strongly-ionized plasma.
` Q. Now, your sentence here in paragraph 55 of
`your declaration refers to Figure 2 of the '759
`patent, and then, as we noted, you reproduced
`Figure 2.
` Does Figure 2 illustrate the geometric and
`structural relationship between the anode and the
`cathode in this invention?
` MR. SADOWITZ: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: It illustrates an embodiment
`of the -- of the '759 invention.
`BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
` Q. So your testimony is that -- that the
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`invention is not limited to this embodiment?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. What aspect of the gas flow location is
`relevant to the particular structure that you've
`identified in paragraph 55?
` A. Please repeat the question again.
` Q. I had asked you about the particular
`aspects of the structure that you had in mind when
`you -- when using this language "a particular
`structure" here in paragraph 55, and one of those
`that you identified was the gas flow location.
` And I am asking you what aspect of that is
`important to or relevant to the particular structure
`that you refer to here in paragraph 55.
` MR. SADOWITZ: Objection; form.
` Go ahead.
` THE WITNESS: In that embodiment, it
`illustrates the gas flow -- it doesn't illustrate
`the gas flow in that -- let me take a moment.
` (Witness reviewing document.)
` The particular aspect, it is shown in
`Figure 2, but not specifically discussed in
`relationship to that figure.
` But the aspect that is particular is the
`inlet of the gas such that it can flow into the
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`space, into the region 245, and it's fed into that
`region, again, in this particular embodiment.
`BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
` Q. And 245 is shown in Figure 2; is that
`right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And you were referring there to the '759
`patent.
` Can you just identify, for the record,
`which portion of the '759 you're referring to?
` A. Column 4, starting at lines 29 and
`following.
` Q. You also said that "Another key aspect of
`the invention was the power supply and what it can
`do."
` What do you mean by that?
` A. I mean that it is configured and capable of
`delivering the types of pulses claimed in the
`patent.
` Q. And where is that described in the '759
`patent?
` A. In many places.
` Q. Where?
` A. (Witness reviewing document.)
` At least in columns 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11,
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`12, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19. That's it.
` Q. Can you please just briefly identify by
`line numbers where in each of those columns you were
`looking, beginning with column 5?
` A. Column 5, starting at line 15 through at
`least line 39.
` Q. Column 6?
` A. Pardon?
` Q. Column 6?
` A. Starting at line 22 to at least 53.
` Q. Column 7?
` A. Column 7, starting at 27 -- line 27,
`through to the end of that column.
` Column 8?
` Q. Yep.
` A. Starting at line 1 through at least 10, and
`line 25 through line 69.
` Column 9, lines 1 through -- 1 through 69.
` Column 10, lines 1 through 68. I guess
`it's not 69 -- 67 -- I'm sorry, I am not counting
`the lines right -- through the end.
` Q. Column 11?
` A. All of column 11.
` Q. Column 12?
` A. Lines 1 through 61.
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` Q. Column 15?
` A. Lines 54 through the end.
` Q. Column 16?
` A. At least lines 1 through 18 and 33 through
`the end.
` Q. Seventeen?
` A. At least lines 1 through 18.
` Q. Column 18?
` A. (Witness reviewing document.)
` Q. I think you've been reading that one column
`now for about six minutes, Doctor.
` Can you identify the particular lines that
`you have in mind?
` MR. SADOWITZ: Tony, he can take as long as
`he needs to, to review it and be comfortable with
`his answer.
` Go ahead, if you can answer.
` THE WITNESS: It's not -- the pulsed power
`supply is not specifically mentioned, but in
`relationship to Figure 10, the -- an output of the
`pulsed power supply and the DC power supply are
`connected to one another in the sense that an output
`of the pulsed power supply can affect the electric
`field between the pre-ionizing electrode and the
`cathode.
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`BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
` Q. And can you identify where in Figure 18 --
`line -- Column 18 you're referencing here?
` Is it the entire discussion of Figure 10 or
`some subpart of that?
` I am just asking you to identify the lines
`in figure -- you know, column 18, Doctor.
` A. I think the actual references are in column
`19.
` Q. Okay. Where in column 19?
` A. Actually what I was referring to is in
`col- -- that aspect is in column 20, line -- lines 6
`through 10.
` Q. Would you please look at Figure 2 of the
`'759 patent?
` Do you have that in front of you?
` A. Yes.
` Q. At the top of the figure, there's a box
`that's identified as "matching unit."
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What is a matching unit?
` A. Well, it can have a number of meanings in
`the -- in the art.
` Q. What is the matching unit doing here in
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`this embodiment?
` A. Well, again, I would have to refer to the
`specification of the patent.
` Q. Is it part of the power supply?
` A. I would have to refer to the specification.
` MR. SADOWITZ: Tony, we've been going for
`about an hour and a half. Seems like a good time
`for a break.
` Are you okay with that?
` MR. FITZPATRICK: That's fine.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This marks the end of
`Volume 1, Disk 1, in the deposition of Larry D.
`Hartsough. The time is 10:31 a.m., and we are off
`the record.
` (Recess taken.)
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This marks the beginning
`of Volume 1, Disk 2, in the deposition of Dr. Larry
`D. Hartsough.
` The time is 10:47 a.m., and we are on the
`record.
`BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
` Q. Doctor, before the break, I was asking you
`about the matching unit.
` Do you recall that?
` A. Yes.
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` Q. Could you please look at column 5 of the
`'759 patent?
` In the first full paragraph of column 5,
`which begins at line 6, there's reference to the
`matching unit.
` I will represent to you that this is the
`only reference to the matching unit that we've been
`able to find in the specification of the '759
`patent.
` If you would please read that and let me
`know when you're done.
` A. I'm done.
` Q. Having read that paragraph, are you able to
`explain the function of the matching unit in the
`embodiment of Figure 2?
` A. No.
` Q. Directing your attention back to paragraph
`55 of your declaration, please.
` Paragraph 55, please.
` A. I just wanted to amplify the rest of that
`answer.
` The next paragraph says:
` "In another embodiment, basically, the
` output of the supply is directly coupled to
` the cathode assembly."
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` So Figure 2 only represents one embodiment.
` Paragraph?
` Q. Fifty-five.
` A. Fifty-five.
` Q. There's a reference in paragraph 55 to a
`particular type of voltage pulse.
` Do you see that in the fourth line of the
`paragraph?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What did you mean by that?
` A. The pulse has charac- -- various
`characteristics that -- among which, you know, the
`amplitude, the shape, including the rise time and
`fall time, and the pulse width, and the type of
`pulse.
` Q. What do you mean by "the type of pulse"?
` A. Whether it's a power pulse, a voltage
`pulse.
` Q. Which is it?
` A. Well, it's not an either-or. He discusses
`both.
` Q. If you would look at column 3 of the '759
`patent, please.
` Top of the column, the first sentence
`reads:
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` "Pulsing the power applied to the plasma
` can be advantageous since the average
` discharge power can remain low while
` relatively large power pulses can be
` periodically applied."
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And then he says:
` "Additionally, the duration of these large
` voltage pulses can be preset so as to
` reduce the probability of establishing an
` electrical breakdown condition leading to
` an undesirable electrical discharge."
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. In the second sentence, where it refers to
`"these large voltage pulses," that's referring back
`to the large power pulses in the preceding sentence;
`right?
` A. I have already said that he refers to both.
` Q. That's not my question, Doctor.
` My question is: The words "these large
`voltage pulses" in the second sentence of this
`paragraph refers back to the large power pulses in
`the preceding sentence; right?
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` MR. SADOWITZ: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: The pulses deliver both
`voltage -- there's a voltage and a power associated
`with