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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` TAIWAN SEMICONDUCTOR Patent No. 6,853,142
` MANUFACTURING COMPANY, IPR 2014-00818
` LTD., et al., IPR 2014-00819
` IPR 2014-00821
` Petitioners, IPR 2014-00827
` IPR 2014-01098
`
` vs.
`
` ZOND, LLC,INC.,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
`-----------------------------------------------------
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF LARRY D. HARTSOUGH, Ph.D.
` Berkeley, California
` Thursday, February 26, 2015
`
`REPORTED BY:
`TAVIA MANNING, CSR No. 13294, CLR, CCRR, RPR
`JOB NO. 90527
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`IPR2014-01083
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`Page 1
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` TAIWAN SEMICONDUCTOR Patent No. 6,853,142
` MANUFACTURING COMPANY, IPR 2014-00818
` LTD., et al., IPR 2014-00819
` IPR 2014-00821
` Petitioners, IPR 2014-00827
` IPR 2014-01098
`
` vs.
`
` ZOND, LLC,INC.,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
`-----------------------------------------------------
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF LARRY D. HARTSOUGH, Ph.D.
` Berkeley, California
` Thursday, February 26, 2015
`
`REPORTED BY:
`TAVIA MANNING, CSR No. 13294, CLR, CCRR, RPR
`JOB NO. 90527
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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` February 26, 2015
` 9:00 A.M.
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`Page 2
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`Deposition of LARRY D. HARTSOUGH, Ph.D.,
`taken on behalf of Petitioners at 200
`Marina Boulevard, Berkeley, California,
`before Tavia Manning, Certified Shorthand
`Reporter No. 13294, Certified LiveNote
`Reporter, California Certified Realtime
`Reporter, Registered Professional Reporter.
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`APPEARANCES:
`
`FOR TAIWAN SEMICONDUCTOR MANUFACTURING COMPANY,
`LIMITED and TSMC NORTH AMERICA:
` DUANE MORRIS
` BY: ANTHONY FITZPATRICK, ESQ.
` 100 High Street
` Boston, MA 02110
`
` -- and --
`
`FOR TAIWAN SEMICONDUCTOR MANUFACTURING COMPANY,
`LIMITED and TSMC NORTH AMERICA and FUJITSU:
` HAYNES AND BOONE
` BY: GREGORY HUH, ESQ.
` DAVID McCOMBS, ESQ.
` 2505 North Plano Road
` Richardson, TX 75082
`
`///
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`APPEARANCES (CONTINUED):
`
`FOR THE GLOBALFOUNDRIES PETITIONERS:
` WHITE & CASE
` BY: DAVID TENNANT, ESQ.
` BRETT RISMILLER, ESQ.
` 701 Thirteenth Street, N.W.
` Washington, D.C. 20005
`
`FOR THE PATENT OWNER ZOND, LLC:
` RADULESCU
` BY: MICHAEL SADOWITZ, ESQ.
` ETAI LAHAV, ESQ.
` The Empire State Building
` 350 Fifth Avenue
` New York, NY 10118
`
` ///
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`APPEARANCES (CONTINUED):
`
`Also present: Sean McGrath, Videographer
`
` ***
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` BERKELEY, CALIFORNIA;
` THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 26, 2015; 9:00 A.M.
`
`Page 6
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning.
` This is the beginning of Disk Number 1 of
`the videotaped deposition of Dr. Larry Hartsough in
`the matter Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing
`Company, Ltd., et al., versus Zond, LLC, in the
`United States Patent and Trademark Office before the
`Patent Trial and Appeal Board; cases IPR 2014-00818,
`IPR 2014-00819, IPR 2014-00821, IPR 2014-00827 and
`IPR 2014-01098.
` This deposition is being held at 200 Marina
`Boulevard, Berkeley, California on February 26th,
`2015 at approximately 9:01 a.m.
` My name is Sean McGrath from TSG Reporting,
`and I am the legal video specialist.
` The court reporter is Tavia Manning in
`association with TSG reporting.
` Will counsel please introduce yourselves
`starting with the questioning attorney.
` MR. FITZPATRICK: Anthony Fitzpatrick, from
`Duane Morris, LLP, on behalf of petitioners Taiwan
`Semiconductor Manufacturing Company, Limited and
`TSMC North America.
`
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` MR. HUH: Gregory Huh, from Haynes and
`Boone, on behalf of TSMC and Fujitsu.
` MR. McCOMBS: David McCombs, with Haynes
`and Boone, on behalf of TSMC Fujitsu.
` MR. RISMILLER: Brett Rismiller, with White
`& Case, on behalf of GLOBALFOUNDRIES.
` MR. SADOWITZ: Michael Sadowitz, with
`Radulescu, and here with me is Etai Lahav, also with
`Radulescu, representing patent owner and the
`witness.
` MR. SULLIVAN: This is Michael Sullivan
`from Toshiba.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court reporter
`please swear in the witness, and we can proceed.
`
` LARRY D. HARTSOUGH, Ph.D.,
` having been first duly sworn by the reporter,
` testified as follows:
`
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
` Q. Good morning, Doctor.
` A. Good morning.
` Q. Would you please state your full name for
`the record.
`
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` A. Larry Dowd Hartsough.
` Q. Doctor, obviously, you've been through this
`several times in the last couple of weeks, but let's
`just talk briefly about the ground rules.
` You understand that you have taken an oath
`to testify truthfully?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And your answers to my questions will be
`truthful?
` A. Yes.
` Q. They will be complete?
` A. Yes.
` Q. You understand that you are required to
`answer my question even if your attorney objects,
`unless your attorney instructs you not to answer?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Have you ingested anything that could
`impair or impact your ability to testify truthfully
`and completely today?
` A. No.
` Q. If, at any point, you don't fully hear or
`understand any of my questions, will you please let
`me know?
` A. Yes.
` Q. If you answer my question, then I'll assume
`
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`that you understood it.
` Is that okay?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Since the conclusion of yesterday's
`deposition, have you done anything to prepare for
`this deposition?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What did you do?
` A. I met for several hours with counsel after
`the -- after yesterday's meeting and for
`approximately an hour this morning and spent about
`two hours at home reviewing the patent.
` Q. Did you -- and by "the patent," you're
`referring to United States Patent Number 6,853,142?
` A. The '142 patent, yes.
` Q. So if we talk about it about as the '142
`patent today, you'll understand what I'm referring
`to?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Did you review anything, other than the
`'142 patent itself, in the context of what you've
`reviewed since yesterday?
` A. I did look at Lantsman.
` Q. The Lantsman reference?
` A. Mm-hmm.
`
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` Q. You'll have to say "yes" or "no" for the
`record.
` A. Oh, yes.
` Q. Anything else that you reviewed?
` A. Parts of Wang.
` Q. Do you remember which parts?
` A. Just the -- reviewing the layout, the
`structural parts. But that's what I concentrated
`on.
` Q. Anything else that you reviewed?
` A. Not that I recall specifically from that
`period.
` Q. Other than what you've just described as
`your preparation since yesterday for this
`deposition, together with what you described
`yesterday concerning your preparation for that
`deposition, have you done anything else to prepare
`for this deposition?
` MR. SADOWITZ: Caution the witness not to
`reveal the content of any attorney-client -- or any
`communications with your attorneys.
` If you can answer without revealing the
`content of those communications, you can do so.
` THE WITNESS: Not -- not to prepare -- not
`preparing specifically for this deposition.
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`BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
` Q. Okay. Let me hand you what has previously
`been marked as Exhibit 2005 in IPR number -- IPR
`2014-00818, '819, '821, '827, and '1098.
` Please look at that and tell me what it is.
` A. It is my declaration in regard to the '142
`patent.
` Q. And, unfortunately, the document is not
`page numbered until you get to the very last few
`pages, but about eight -- approximately eight pages
`from the end of the document, there's a declaration
`or a signature page.
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And is that your signature there?
` A. Yes.
` (Mr. Tennant joins the proceedings.)
` Q. And you signed that on or about January 2nd
`of this year?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Does this declaration contain the entirety
`of your testimony with respect to the IPR
`proceedings for the '142 patent?
` A. This represents my opinion on the
`obviousness of the '142 patent.
`
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` What do you mean by "testimony?"
` Q. Well, directing your attention back to the
`signature page of the document, in that -- on that
`signature page, you declared that:
` "All statements made herein on my own
` knowledge are true, and that all statements
` made on information and belief are believed
` to be true, and, further, that these
` statements were made with the knowledge
` that willful false statements and the like
` so made are punishable by fine or
` imprisonment or both under Section 1001 of
` Title 18 of the United States Code."
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And you read that --
` A. Yeah.
` Q. -- at the time that you signed the
`document?
` A. Yes.
` Q. You understood it?
` A. Yes.
` Q. So you understood that this was a
`declaration to be used in a proceeding before the
`United States Patent and Trademark Office?
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` A. Yes.
` Q. So this declaration is a complete statement
`of all of your opinions with respect to the '142
`patent; is that correct?
` A. It's a statement of the opinions of -- of
`the -- yes.
` Q. Turn to paragraph 3 of the document,
`please.
` This paragraph reads:
` "This list of materials I considered in
` forming the opinions set forth in this
` declaration includes the '142 patent, the
` file history of the '142 patent, the
` petitions for inter partes review and the
` exhibits, the PTAB's Institution decisions,
` the transcript of the petitioner's expert
` on the '142 patent, and the prior art
` references discussed below."
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. In forming your opinions that are set forth
`in this declaration, did you review or consider
`anything else other than the items that are
`enumerated in this paragraph?
` A. I don't recall at the moment.
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` Q. Is there anything that would help you to
`recall?
` A. If there are citations in here other than
`that, I would have to look at them and determine
`whether they were considered in forming the opinion
`or whether they were just illustrating the opinion.
` Q. So you're referring now to items cited in
`your declaration; is that right?
` A. I said that would be one thing that would
`remind me if I had considered anything other than
`this.
` I don't recall at the moment.
` Q. If you recall anything during the course of
`the day or while we're going through your
`declaration, would you please let me know?
` A. I'll try.
` Q. Turn, please, to paragraph 55 of the
`declaration -- I'm sorry -- 52 of the declaration.
` In paragraphs 52, 53, and 54, you describe
`what it is that the inventor of the '142 patent
`purportedly invented; isn't that correct?
` A. He describes this invention in his -- in
`his specification, but what he invented in the '142
`patent does go beyond that, as it is -- '142 is a
`plasma generation system.
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` Q. Well, I'm not asking you, Doctor, what or
`how the inventor described his invention.
` I am asking you: Isn't it the case that in
`these three paragraphs of your declaration you
`describe what it is that you believe the inventor
`purportedly invented? Right?
` A. This was -- you know, this was copied over
`from my declaration for the -- for I believe the
`'759.
` And as I said, his invention isn't limited
`to that.
` Q. Well, again, Doctor, in paragraph 52 of
`your declaration concerning the -- let me back up.
` This declaration relates to the '142
`patent; correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Turn, please, to paragraph 52 -- to
`paragraph 52 --
` A. Yes.
` Q. -- five-two.
` Paragraph 52 begins:
` "To overcome the deficiencies of the prior
` art, Dr. Chistyakov invented..."
` And then you describe what it is that you
`believe he invented; right?
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` A. I describe an invention, yes.
` Q. These are your words; right?
` A. I understand that.
` Q. These are your words?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And this is your description of the
`invention; right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And you say:
` "As illustrated in Figure 2 of the '142
` patent reproduced below."
` Right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And then in paragraph 53, you continue your
`discussion, and you have a series of quotes citing
`to the specification; right?
` A. May I see the -- may I see the '142 patent,
`please?
` Q. Doctor, I'm going to hand you what has been
`marked as TSMC 1001, which is a copy of the '142
`patent.
` A. (Witness reviewing document.)
` So what was your question?
` Q. My question is: In paragraph 53, you have
`a series of quotes citing to the specification of
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`the '142; right?
` A. May I see the '759 patent?
` Q. Why would you like to see the '759 patent,
`Doctor?
` A. Well, I want to see it.
` Q. Why is that?
` A. Because the quote doesn't match the
`reference location.
` Q. That's because all the quotes come from the
`'759 patent; right, Doctor?
` A. Looks like...
` Q. Let me hand you what was marked -- or what
`was introduced yesterday, in yesterday's deposition.
`It's the '759 patent marked as TSMC 1201 from the
`'759 IPR proceedings.
` A. (Witness reviewing document.)
` Q. The quotes in paragraph 53 are actually all
`from the '759 patent; right, Doctor?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Not from the '142?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. And, in fact, the Figure 2 in paragraph 52
`that you say is from the '142 patent isn't from the
`'142 patent either; right?
` A. That's correct.
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` Q. That's actually from the '759 patent?
` A. Yeah.
` (Witness nods head.)
` Yes.
` Q. And, in fact, these three paragraphs, 52,
`53, and 54, in your declaration concerning the '142
`patent were, as you testified earlier, copied over
`from your declaration concerning the '759 patent;
`right?
` A. Yes. Despite the -- my error on that,
`oversight, and including that, I am here today
`prepared to testify about my opinions on the '142
`patent.
` Q. I understand, and we'll have lots of
`questions about that.
` But other than the change in the reference
`from '759 to '142 in paragraph 52, these three
`paragraphs are identical to the corresponding
`paragraphs in your declaration concerning the '759
`patent; right?
` A. I would have to take a look at that, but...
` Q. Okay. Let me hand you what was marked
`yesterday -- or introduced yesterday as Exhibit 2005
`from the '759 proceedings. It's a copy of your
`declaration concerning those proceedings.
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` If you would look at paragraphs 55 through
`57.
` MR. LAHAV: Do you have a copy of that for
`us?
` MR. FITZPATRICK: I don't.
` THE WITNESS: Yes. Just to clarify, you
`did say other than -- you know, other than the
`change of reference to the patent number?
`BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
` Q. In paragraph 52 of your '142 declaration,
`at the end of the text, it says "as illustrated in
`para -- in Figure 2 of the '142 patent"; and in the
`'759 declaration, it says "as illustrated in
`Figure 2 of the '759 patent."
` Other than that one difference, these three
`paragraphs are identical in the two declarations;
`right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. You reviewed your declaration before you
`signed it, Doctor?
` A. I did.
` Q. But you didn't notice these misstatements
`in your description of the invention?
` A. I did not. I didn't -- I was concentrating
`on the parts of the declaration that -- on my
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`opinions on -- on the claims.
` Q. Well, you would agree with me, Doctor, that
`your description of the purported invention of the
`'142 patent is significant; right?
` MR. SADOWITZ: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: It does include the
`generation of the -- of a strongly-ionized plasma by
`multi-step ionization process, which is, you know --
`definitely relates to the '142 patent.
`BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
` Q. I understand, Doctor. And again, that's
`not my question.
` And I really hope that today we can stay on
`track and you can listen to my questions and answer
`my questions.
` The question is: Wouldn't you agree with
`me that your description in your declaration of what
`it is that is the purported invention of the '142
`patent is a significant portion of your declaration,
`it's an important portion of that declaration;
`right?
` MR. SADOWITZ: Same objection.
` THE WITNESS: Not necessarily. I discuss
`the aspects of it as relate to the claims in many
`other parts of my declaration.
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`BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
` Q. So this portion of your declaration is not
`important?
` MR. SADOWITZ: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Well, it's -- as I say, it's
`an oversight on my part that it was included, and it
`in no way affects my opinions that I formed about
`the obviousness of the claims of the '142 patent.
`BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
` Q. You knew when you were preparing and
`signing your declaration that it was going to be
`submitted to the Patent Trial and Appeal Board;
`correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And your intention was that the Patent
`Trial and Appeal Board should read and rely upon
`your declaration; right?
` A. My intention was that I -- I overlooked an
`error -- or an oversight in my declaration.
` Q. I understand.
` But again, my question is: Your intention
`was that the Board should read and rely upon your
`declaration; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And in your declaration, you purported to
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`characterize what the purported invention of the
`patent was; right?
` MR. SADOWITZ: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: I purported...
`BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
` Q. You included, in paragraphs 52 through 54,
`a summary or a description of your view as to what
`the invention of the '142 patent is; correct?
` MR. SADOWITZ: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: It was an oversight on my
`part.
`BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
` Q. I understand.
` Again, my question is: You included in
`these paragraphs a description of your view as to
`what the invention of the '142 patent is; right?
` MR. SADOWITZ: Same objection.
`BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
` Q. Right, Doctor?
` A. But, you know...
` Q. Do you need the question again?
` Would you like me to repeat the question,
`Doctor?
` A. Yes.
` Q. I'll try again.
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` In these paragraphs, 52 through 54, of your
`declaration, you included a description of your view
`as to what the invention of the '142 patent is;
`correct?
` MR. SADOWITZ: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: It says it describes the '142
`patent, and it doesn't. So that was definitely an
`oversight on my part and not intentional.
`BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
` Q. And you would agree with me that your
`description -- your description of the purported
`invention of the '142 patent is an important part of
`your declaration; right?
` MR. SADOWITZ: Objection; form.
` Tony, he's already answered this question
`multiple times. It's getting to the point of
`harassment. He's admitted it's an oversight.
` I think you've reached the end of this line
`of questioning.
` MR. FITZPATRICK: He has not answered the
`question.
` THE WITNESS: As I mentioned, the
`descriptions -- it's not necessary for the
`considerations that I used in forming my opinions
`about the claims of the '142 patent.
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`BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
` Q. So it can be disregarded?
` A. In which I did refer specifically to the
`'142 patent, not -- I used the '142 patent and not
`the '759 patent.
` Q. So this section of your declaration can
`just be disregarded?
` MR. SADOWITZ: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: It was not important in
`arriving -- in me arriving at my opinions.
`BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
` Q. So, Doctor, since you used the '759 patent
`in summarizing what it is that was purportedly
`invention -- invented in the '142 patent, let me ask
`you: What is it, in your view, that is different
`about the '142 patent than the '759 patent?
` A. There are a number of differences, but the
`main one is that the '142 patent -- let me back up.
` The '759 patent is directed to sputtering
`using a strongly-ionized plasma.
` The -- and the generation of the '142
`patent is directed to generating a strongly-ionized
`plasma that may or may not be used for sputtering,
`but, in fact, it focus -- it's focusing on the
`generation of the strongly-ionized plasma and uses
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`thereof, properties thereof.
` It would take me some time to go through
`both and list all the differences, but the main
`difference is as to what it's directed toward.
` Q. The '759 being directed to sputtering, and
`the '142 being directed to generation of
`strongly-ionized plasma?
` A. The generation, yes.
` Q. The '759 patent discloses generation of
`strongly-ionized plasma; correct?
` A. It does.
` Q. And it discloses uses of such plasma;
`correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And it discloses properties of such plasma;
`correct?
` A. Some, yes.
` Q. So what is it that's in the '142 that's not
`in the '759?
` A. There are differences in the specifics of
`the generation, how you generate the
`strongly-ionized plasma between the two methods --
`between the two patents.
` And it would take me some time to try to
`enumerate all of those sitting before you here
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`today.
` Q. In -- any other differences?
` A. I am sure there are, but, I -- you know, I
`can't -- it would take me some time to enumerate
`them here today.
` Q. You can't think of any as you sit here,
`without reviewing the two patents?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. When you say that there are differences in
`how the strongly-ionized plasma is generated,
`differences in the methods between the two patents,
`what do you mean by that?
` MR. SADOWITZ: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Well, one example of a
`difference is: In the '142 patent, Claim 1
`describes the:
` "Supplying power to the weakly-ionized
` plasma through an electrical pulse applied
` across the weakly-ionized plasma, the
` electrical pulse having a magnitude and a
` rise-time that is sufficient to increase
` the density of the weakly-ionized plasma to
` generate a strongly-ionized plasma."
` And -- I take that back. That's not one of
`the differences.
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` (Witness reviewing document.)
` One difference is '759 claims a cathode
`assembly that is positioned adjacent to the anode --
`the cathode assembly including a sputter target.
` The '142 just claims a cathode.
`BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
` Q. Is that your complete answer?
` A. Repeat your question, please.
` Q. When you say there are differences in how
`the strongly-ionized plasma is generated between the
`two patents, what do you mean by that?
` A. That wasn't the last question.
` Q. I believe it was.
` A. I thought that you said, "Tell me -- tell
`me about a difference," or "give me an example of a
`difference."
` Q. I will read back to you, Doctor, word for
`word, the question at issue:
` "When you say that there are differences in
` how the strongly-ionized plasma is
` generated, differences in the methods
` between the two patents, what do you mean
` by that?"
` A. And I -- it would take me some time to
`prepare and compare all the differences, and I am
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`not prepared to list them all right now.
` If you went -- you know, I could do that,
`but I did cite an example of a difference.
` Q. And in preparing for your depositions this
`week concerning the '759 and the '142 patents, you
`indicated yesterday that you prepared for about 20
`hours between Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday; is that
`correct?
` A. About.
` Q. And that included review of and discussion
`with counsel about those two patents; is that
`correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And then you indicated that you spent time
`last night and this morning, several hours, again
`reviewing the '142 patent and discussing it with
`counsel; correct?
` A. Reviewing the obviousness or lack of
`obviousness grounds between each patent and the
`cited grounds for obviousness, not particularly
`spent in exploring all of the differences between
`the two patents.
` Q. But nonetheless, you spent quite a bit of
`time reviewing and looking at both patents; right?
` A. Spent some time.
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` Q. And notwithstanding that preparation, as
`you sit here right now, the only difference that you
`can identify between the invention of the '759
`patent and the invention of the '142 patent is that
`in the '759 patent the cathode assembly includes a
`target, but the '142 patent does not; correct?
` MR. SADOWITZ: Objection; form,
`mischaracterizes.
` THE WITNESS: You know, I wasn't asked to
`prepare a list of all those differences.
` And I can't list all of them for you
`sitting right here, right now.
`BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
` Q. If you could turn to paragraph 12 of your
`declaration, please.
` In paragraph 12, you state your opinion
`regarding the level of ordinary skill in the art at
`the time of the filing of the '142 patent; is that
`correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And the application for the '142 patent was
`filed in November of 2002; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. So that's the time or the date that you
`used in establishing the level of ordinary skill in
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`the art; is that right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Anodes were well known by persons of
`ordinary skill in the art as of 2002; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And cathodes were well known by persons of
`ordinary skill in the art at that time?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Using magnets to generate magnetic fields
`was well known in the art at that time; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. You'll agree that using magnetic fields to
`trap electrons was well known by persons of skill in
`the art prior to 2002; right?
` MR. SADOWITZ: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Yes.
`BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
` Q. Generating a plasma between an anode and a
`cathode was well known by persons of skill in the
`art before 2002?
` MR. SADOWITZ: Same objection.
` THE WITNESS: Yes.
`BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
` Q. Generating a weakly-ionized plasma was well
`known by persons of the art -- persons of skill in
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`the art before 2002; right?
` MR. SADOWITZ: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Generating a plasma that
`would be in -- that could be characterized as a
`weakly-ionized plasma, depending on the relative
`densities, would be, yes.
`BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
` Q. And by the same token, generating a
`strongly-ionized plasma was well known by persons of
`ordinary skill in the art before 2002; correct?
` MR. SADOWITZ: Same objection.
` THE WITNESS: Yes.
`BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
` Q. Generating excited atoms was well known to
`persons with skill in the art prior to 2002;
`correct?
` MR. SADOWITZ: Object to form.
` THE WITNESS: Yes.
`BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
` Q. Ionizing excited atoms was well known by
`persons of skill in the art before 2002; right?
` MR. SADOWITZ: Same objection.
` THE WITNESS: Generating conditions that
`excited atoms were ionized was known.
`//
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`BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
` Q. Generating secondary electrons was known
`prior to 2002?
` MR. SADOWITZ: Same ob
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