throbber
ROBERT HORST-4/2/2015
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` ---o0o---
`
` VMWARE, INC.,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` vs.
`
` Case: IPR2014-00901
`
` ELECTRONICS AND Patent 6,978,346 B2
`
` TELECOMMUNICATIONS RESEARCH
`
` INSTITUTE,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
` _______________________________/
`
` DEPOSITION OF ROBERT HORST
`
` Redwood City, California
`
` Thursday, April 2, 2015
`
`REPORTED BY: LYNNE LEDANOIS
`
` Certified Shorthand Reporter
`
` License No. 6811
`
`PAGES: 1-166
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 1
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8 9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 1 of 194
`
`Pat. Owner ETRI Ex. 2302
`IPR2014-00901, -00949
`VMware, IBM, & Oracle v. ETRI
`
`

`
`ROBERT HORST-4/2/2015
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` ---o0o---
`
` VMWARE, INC.,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` vs.
`
` Case: IPR2014-00901
`
` ELECTRONICS AND Patent 6,978,346 B2
`
` TELECOMMUNICATIONS RESEARCH
`
` INSTITUTE,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
` _______________________________/
`
` Deposition of ROBERT HORST, taken on behalf of
`
` ELECTRONICS AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS RESEARCH INSTITUTE,
`
` Patent Owner, at FISH & RICHARDSON P.C., 500 Arguello
`
` Street, Suite 500, Redwood City, California, beginning
`
` at 9:03 a.m. and ending at 3:46 p.m. on April 2, 2015,
`
` before LYNNE LEDANOIS, CSR 6811.
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8 9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 2
`
`Page 2 of 194
`
`Pat. Owner ETRI Ex. 2302
`IPR2014-00901, -00949
`VMware, IBM, & Oracle v. ETRI
`
`

`
`ROBERT HORST-4/2/2015
`
` A P P E A R A N C E S :
`
` F O R T H E P E T I T I O N E R :
`
` F I S H & R I C H A R D S O N P . C .
`
` B Y : K A T H E R I N E K E L L Y L U T T O N
`
` B Y : L E E R O N G . K A L A Y
`
` A t t o r n e y s a t L a w
`
` 5 0 0 A r g u e l l o S t r e e t , S u i t e 5 0 0
`
` R e d w o o d C i t y , C a l i f o r n i a 9 4 0 6 3
`
` ( 6 5 0 ) 8 3 9 . 5 1 9 6
`
` l u t t o n @ f r . c o m
`
` k a l a y @ f r . c o m
`
` F I S H & R I C H A R D S O N P . C .
`
` B Y : M I C H A E L R U E C K H E I M
`
` A t t o r n e y a t L a w
`
` 1 2 2 1 M c K i n n e y S t r e e t
`
` H o u s t o n , T e x a s 7 7 0 1 0
`
` ( 7 1 3 ) 6 5 4 . 5 3 0 0
`
` m h r @ f r . c o m
`
`1
`
`2 3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`1 0
`
`1 1
`
`1 2
`
`1 3
`
`1 4
`
`1 5
`
`1 6
`
`1 7
`
`1 8
`
`1 9
`
`2 0
`
`2 1
`
`2 2
`
`2 3
`
`2 4
`
`2 5
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 3
`
`Page 3 of 194
`
`Pat. Owner ETRI Ex. 2302
`IPR2014-00901, -00949
`VMware, IBM, & Oracle v. ETRI
`
`

`
`ROBERT HORST-4/2/2015
`
` A P P E A R A N C E S :
`
` F O R T H E P A T E N T O W N E R :
`
` R E N A I S S A N C E I P L A W G R O U P L L P
`
` B Y : M A T T H E W C . P H I L L I P S
`
` B Y : D E R E K M E E K E R
`
` A t t o r n e y s a t L a w
`
` 9 6 0 0 S W O a k S t r e e t , S u i t e 5 6 0
`
` P o r t l a n d , O r e g o n 9 7 2 2 3
`
` ( 5 0 3 ) 4 1 9 - 6 4 2 5
`
` m a t t h e w . p h i l l i p s @ r e n a i s s a n c e i p l a w . c o m
`
` d e r e k . m e e k e r @ r e n a i s s a n c e i p l a w . c o m
`
` F O R I B M a n d O R A C L E :
`
` K I R K L A N D & E L L I S L L P
`
` B Y : B E N J A M I N L A S K Y
`
` A t t o r n e y a t L a w
`
` 6 0 1 L e x i n g t o n A v e n u e
`
` N e w Y o r k , N e w Y o r k 1 0 0 2 2
`
` ( 2 1 2 ) 4 4 6 . 6 4 1 5
`
` b e n j a m i n . l a s k y @ k i r k l a n d . c o m
`
` A L S O P R E S E N T : T H O M A S M . C O N T E
`
`1
`
`2 3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`1 0
`
`1 1
`
`1 2
`
`1 3
`
`1 4
`
`1 5
`
`1 6
`
`1 7
`
`1 8
`
`1 9
`
`2 0
`
`2 1
`
`2 2
`
`2 3
`
`2 4
`
`2 5
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 4
`
`Page 4 of 194
`
`Pat. Owner ETRI Ex. 2302
`IPR2014-00901, -00949
`VMware, IBM, & Oracle v. ETRI
`
`

`
`ROBERT HORST-4/2/2015
`
` INDEX
`
` WITNESS EXAMINATION
`
` ROBERT HORST
`
` BY MR. PHILLIPS 6, 162
`
` BY MR. LASKY 158
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6 7 8 9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 5
`
`Page 5 of 194
`
`Pat. Owner ETRI Ex. 2302
`IPR2014-00901, -00949
`VMware, IBM, & Oracle v. ETRI
`
`

`
`ROBERT HORST-4/2/2015
`
` Redwood City, California, Thursday, April 2, 2015
`
` 9:03 a.m.
`
` ROBERT HORST,
`
` _________________________________________________________
`
` having been administered an oath, was examined and
`
` testified as follows:
`
` EXAMINATION
`
` BY MR. PHILLIPS:
`
` Q Good morning, Dr. Horst. My name is Matthew
`
` Phillips. I represent the patent owner in this case,
`
` Electronics and Telecommunications Research Institute.
`
` I'm going to ask you some questions about the
`
` declaration you filed in this case.
`
` Have you ever been deposed before?
`
` A Yes, I have.
`
` Q Approximately how many times?
`
` A Approximately a dozen times.
`
` Q So I'm sure you understand how this proceeds.
`
` I'll just explain the procedures very briefly as a
`
` refresher.
`
` You've been placed under oath. That means you
`
` must give truthful and complete answers and you're
`
` testifying under penalty of perjury.
`
` Do you understand that?
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 6
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7 8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 6 of 194
`
`Pat. Owner ETRI Ex. 2302
`IPR2014-00901, -00949
`VMware, IBM, & Oracle v. ETRI
`
`

`
`ROBERT HORST-4/2/2015
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q I'll be asking you questions. My intent is not
`
` to ask you any trick questions.
`
` If you do not understand a question that I ask
`
` you, please let me know, and I'll do my best to try to
`
` rephrase the question. Okay?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q Your counsel -- or counsel for the petitioners
`
` will have a right to make objections to questions I ask,
`
` and unless they specifically instruct you not to answer
`
` a question, you should answer the question
`
` notwithstanding an objection.
`
` Do you understand that?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q Ms. Ledanois is the court reporter. She's
`
` making a transcript of our conversation. For that
`
` reason, we need to speak audibly. So please answer
`
` audibly yes or no to my questions when appropriate.
`
` Is that acceptable?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q Is there any reason why you cannot competently
`
` testify today?
`
` A No.
`
` MR. PHILLIPS: Let's get the declaration.
`
` BY MR. PHILLIPS:
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 7
`
`Page 7 of 194
`
`Pat. Owner ETRI Ex. 2302
`IPR2014-00901, -00949
`VMware, IBM, & Oracle v. ETRI
`
`

`
`ROBERT HORST-4/2/2015
`
` Q In Paragraph 8 of your declaration --
`
` MS. LUTTON: We actually have a tabbed copy, if
`
` you prefer to use that. It might just be easier for him
`
` to refer to.
`
` MR. PHILLIPS: Dr. Horst can refer to whichever
`
` copy he would like.
`
` THE WITNESS: I prefer the tabbed copy.
`
` MS. LUTTON: Here's a copy for you as well.
`
` MR. PHILLIPS: Thank you.
`
` BY MR. PHILLIPS:
`
` Q In Paragraph 8 of your declaration, on Page 6,
`
` it states, "I'm being compensated for my work preparing
`
` this report."
`
` How were you compensated for your work in
`
` preparing this report?
`
` A I'm being paid at a rate of 550 per hour.
`
` Q Okay. And who is paying you -- or who did pay
`
` you to prepare your declaration?
`
` A For the original declaration, I was paid by
`
` Fish & Richardson, the attorneys for VMware.
`
` Q Okay. You said your original declaration?
`
` A The -- for the declaration -- at that point, I
`
` was only retained by VMware; now I'm also retained by
`
` the counsel for IBM and Oracle. So in the future, my
`
` rate is going to be split between the other firms as
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 8
`
`Page 8 of 194
`
`Pat. Owner ETRI Ex. 2302
`IPR2014-00901, -00949
`VMware, IBM, & Oracle v. ETRI
`
`

`
`ROBERT HORST-4/2/2015
`
` well.
`
` Q Okay. Very good. Thank you.
`
` Do you have any financial interest in the
`
` company VMware?
`
` A No, I don't.
`
` Q Do you have any financial interest in the
`
` company IBM Corporation?
`
` A No.
`
` Q Do you have any financial interest in the
`
` company Oracle?
`
` A No.
`
` Q Are you aware that the patent owner has sued a
`
` number of companies for infringement of the '346 patent
`
` at issue in this case?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q To your knowledge, do you have any financial
`
` interest in any defendant who has been sued for
`
` infringement of the '346 patent?
`
` A I have a small amount of HP stock. I believe
`
` they're one that's -- of those defendants.
`
` Q Okay. How much stock do you own in HP?
`
` A I don't know the exact amount. It's only a few
`
` hundred shares.
`
` Q Okay. Have you made any transactions with that
`
` stock since being retained in this case?
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 9
`
`Page 9 of 194
`
`Pat. Owner ETRI Ex. 2302
`IPR2014-00901, -00949
`VMware, IBM, & Oracle v. ETRI
`
`

`
`ROBERT HORST-4/2/2015
`
` A No.
`
` Q Have you ever worked for any of the petitioners
`
` before in prior matters?
`
` A I would have to go through the list and
`
` determine that. I may have.
`
` Q Have you ever worked for the firm Fish &
`
` Richardson on other matters?
`
` A Yes, I have.
`
` Q Approximately how many?
`
` A I believe it was just one other case.
`
` Q Do you recall what that case was?
`
` A That was -- I'm under a protective order in
`
` that case, so I don't know if I'm to disclose my
`
` involvement in that case or not.
`
` Q Okay. Very well. I won't ask further
`
` questions.
`
` Can you please tell me how your declaration was
`
` prepared?
`
` A First I had a number of discussions with
`
` Mr. Rueckheim about the case.
`
` The attorneys had found a number of prior art
`
` reference. I found some additional references. We
`
` talked those over initially by phone, and then we met in
`
` these offices for about five days and worked intensely
`
` on actually writing the report.
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 10
`
`Page 10 of 194
`
`Pat. Owner ETRI Ex. 2302
`IPR2014-00901, -00949
`VMware, IBM, & Oracle v. ETRI
`
`

`
`ROBERT HORST-4/2/2015
`
` Q Was the report prepared in these offices then?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q Do you recall which references you found?
`
` A Not specifically all of them. I know of a
`
` couple of them that I found.
`
` Q Which couple of references did you find?
`
` A The -- Dan's workbook is one that I had a
`
` physical copy of, and I note that I supplied that
`
` reference.
`
` Also the Tom Clark book is another one that I
`
` had a physical copy of that I brought in.
`
` I may have also supplied some of the others,
`
` but I don't really remember which ones.
`
` Q Did anyone other than you and Mr. Rueckheim
`
` participate in the formation of your declaration?
`
` MR. LASKY: Objection to the form.
`
` THE WITNESS: There were some other attorneys
`
` at the law firm that contributed, but I don't really
`
` recall their names or how much they contributed.
`
` BY MR. PHILLIPS:
`
` Q Do you mean other attorneys at Fish &
`
` Richardson?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q Was there anyone other than an attorney at Fish
`
` & Richardson who assisted you in any way in preparing
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 11
`
`Page 11 of 194
`
`Pat. Owner ETRI Ex. 2302
`IPR2014-00901, -00949
`VMware, IBM, & Oracle v. ETRI
`
`

`
`ROBERT HORST-4/2/2015
`
` this report?
`
` A Not that I recall.
`
` Q In Paragraph 11 of your declaration, you say
`
` that you believe you are qualified to provide opinions
`
` about the understanding and qualifications of a person
`
` of ordinary skill in the art of the technology at issue
`
` in this proceeding.
`
` And in the next paragraph you state that such a
`
` person would have had a B.S. in electrical engineering
`
` or computer science and at least two years of experience
`
` in designing storage systems as of 2000.
`
` Can you explain to me, Dr. Horst, how it is
`
` that you're familiar with the level of ordinary skill of
`
` such a person?
`
` A I work with a number of people that fit this
`
` description.
`
` In particular, I worked at 3Ware, which is a
`
` company that builds RAID controllers, and we had a
`
` number of people in that firm that had approximately the
`
` two years of experience and contributed to the design of
`
` those RAID controllers.
`
` Q When did you work at 3Ware?
`
` A That was, I believe, approximately in the 2000
`
` time frame.
`
` Q Have you ever done any teaching, Dr. Horst?
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 12
`
`Page 12 of 194
`
`Pat. Owner ETRI Ex. 2302
`IPR2014-00901, -00949
`VMware, IBM, & Oracle v. ETRI
`
`

`
`ROBERT HORST-4/2/2015
`
` A I have not done any university teaching, no.
`
` Q I'm going to ask you about a paper that is
`
` mentioned in your C.V.
`
` Do you have a copy of your C.V. handy?
`
` A Not in front of me.
`
` Q I can get you one.
`
` Could you please turn to Page 7 of your C.V.?
`
` A Yes, I'm there.
`
` Q Do you see the second paper listed under the
`
` heading, "Storage"?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q The title of that paper appears to be, "Beyond
`
` RAID, an Architecture for Improving Fault Tolerance and
`
` Performance" -- I'm sorry -- "for Improving PC Fault
`
` Tolerance and Performance."
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q Do you have available to you a copy of that
`
` paper?
`
` A That is a very short paper. It was a part of
`
` the fast abstract section of that conference. I don't
`
` know if I still have a copy of that or not.
`
` Q Do you know how to obtain a copy of that paper?
`
` A That is an IEEE conference. I would expect
`
` that it would be available through IEEE, but I don't
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 13
`
`Page 13 of 194
`
`Pat. Owner ETRI Ex. 2302
`IPR2014-00901, -00949
`VMware, IBM, & Oracle v. ETRI
`
`

`
`ROBERT HORST-4/2/2015
`
` know for sure.
`
` Q Let me ask you a hypothetical question:
`
` Assuming it's not available on the IEEE database of
`
` publications, where else would one look to find a copy
`
` of this paper?
`
` MR. LASKY: Objection, foundation.
`
` THE WITNESS: That's where I would look. There
`
` may be some others that attended the conference that
`
` would have the book of proceedings it could be in.
`
` BY MR. PHILLIPS:
`
` Q Can you estimate approximately how much time
`
` you believe it would require for you to obtain a copy of
`
` this paper?
`
` MR. LASKY: Objection, foundation, form.
`
` THE WITNESS: It's hard to estimate the time.
`
` It may be that I could go straight to it in my records,
`
` but I don't know that for sure.
`
` BY MR. PHILLIPS:
`
` Q Okay. Thank you.
`
` Dr. Horst, when was the first time you became
`
` aware of the '346 patent, the patent at issue in this
`
` case?
`
` A It's when I was first retained in this case. I
`
` don't remember exactly when that was.
`
` Q Have you ever analyzed the '346 patent for any
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 14
`
`Page 14 of 194
`
`Pat. Owner ETRI Ex. 2302
`IPR2014-00901, -00949
`VMware, IBM, & Oracle v. ETRI
`
`

`
`ROBERT HORST-4/2/2015
`
` purpose other than this inter partes review?
`
` A No.
`
` Q Dr. Horst, you've been handed a document that
`
` is labeled as Paper Number 39 in Case IPR 2013-00635,
`
` and it is the final written decision in that case.
`
` Have you seen this document before?
`
` A Yes, I have.
`
` Q Would you please turn to Page 9 of this
`
` document, and would you please read the sentence on
`
` lines 9 through 12 of this document on Page 9?
`
` A "Accordingly, applying the broadest reasonable
`
` interpretation, we construe RAID as the term used in the
`
` '346 patent to mean a single logical unit for mass
`
` storage using multiple physical disk drives."
`
` Q Dr. Horst, do you agree with that statement?
`
` A I agree that a system that meets this
`
` definition would be considered a RAID, but I believe
`
` that the construction of RAID should be broader than
`
` this as the one originally used and put forth by the
`
` PTAB, which is that a RAID is a reliable -- a redundant
`
` array of inexpensive disks.
`
` Q What does the term "array" mean in the acronym
`
` "redundant array of inexpensive disks"?
`
` A Array means that there is at least two drives
`
` and that they are worked together in some way as part of
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 15
`
`Page 15 of 194
`
`Pat. Owner ETRI Ex. 2302
`IPR2014-00901, -00949
`VMware, IBM, & Oracle v. ETRI
`
`

`
`ROBERT HORST-4/2/2015
`
` an array.
`
` Q Does it matter how they work together in order
`
` to qualify as a RAID array?
`
` A The full definition of RAID means that they
`
` have to be working together to provide that reliability
`
` of the redundancy, the R in the RAID.
`
` Q So if a RAID array provides redundancy, it is
`
` necessarily an array? Is that what you're saying?
`
` MR. LASKY: Objection to the form.
`
` THE WITNESS: If at least two drives are
`
` grouped together to provide that reliability, then it's
`
` an array, yes.
`
` BY MR. PHILLIPS:
`
` Q Must a RAID appear to its host as a single
`
` logical unit?
`
` A A RAID array needs to be able to present a set
`
` of drives as a single logical unit, but it does not
`
` always have to present a single logical unit.
`
` So, for instance, it could provide several
`
` logical units based on subsets of the storage of the
`
` individual drives.
`
` Q What would those several logical units be?
`
` Could you give me an example?
`
` A So in RAID systems, they are usually called
`
` LUNs for logical unit numbers, and most RAID arrays
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 16
`
`Page 16 of 194
`
`Pat. Owner ETRI Ex. 2302
`IPR2014-00901, -00949
`VMware, IBM, & Oracle v. ETRI
`
`

`
`ROBERT HORST-4/2/2015
`
` allow the storage to be allocated to those LUNs in
`
` different ways.
`
` So, for instance, you might have a four-drive
`
` RAID system and say take half of the capacity of all the
`
` drives and make a RAID five group out of that capacity,
`
` and then you might take the remaining capacity and
`
` connect two of those together in a RAID, one mirroring
`
` array, and the other two in some other -- either a
`
` mirroring array or maybe even as individual drives.
`
` Q In the example you just described, how many
`
` RAID arrays are there?
`
` A There's one RAID system in that system. You
`
` would consider that a single RAID system. People would
`
` not describe that as five RAIDs. That's not the way the
`
` term is generally used in the industry.
`
` Q And did I understand you to say that this
`
` single RAID system has three different RAID combinations
`
` in it?
`
` MS. LUTTON: Object to form.
`
` MR. LASKY: Objection to form.
`
` THE WITNESS: Potentially, yes.
`
` For instance, the Mylex system allows up to
`
` eight different ones to be exported.
`
` The system that I worked on at 3Ware allowed a
`
` large number -- I can't remember the exact limit, but it
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 17
`
`Page 17 of 194
`
`Pat. Owner ETRI Ex. 2302
`IPR2014-00901, -00949
`VMware, IBM, & Oracle v. ETRI
`
`

`
`ROBERT HORST-4/2/2015
`
` allowed it to present a number of different logical
`
` drives to the host system.
`
` BY MR. PHILLIPS:
`
` Q Does a logical unit that is part of a RAID
`
` system appear to its host computers as a single logical
`
` unit?
`
` A Yes. For instance, it's similar to the way a
`
` disk is partitioned, where there's one physical disk but
`
` the operating system may see that as a C and a D drive,
`
` not just as a single drive. So it views it -- each of
`
` those as separate logical units.
`
` Q Dr. Horst, is all mirroring RAID 1?
`
` A The definition of RAID 1 as put forth
`
` originally by the group at UC Berkeley used RAID 1 to
`
` describe mirroring of disks. So in that sense, I
`
` believe that, yes, all mirroring is generally described
`
` as RAID 1.
`
` Q Is it possible to have mirrored disks that are
`
` not a RAID array?
`
` A I consider that if disks are truly being used
`
` in a way that all writes go to both disks, that that
`
` satisfies the definition of RAID 1.
`
` Q I'm not sure you answered my question, so let
`
` me try to rephrase it.
`
` Is it possible to have two mirrored disks that
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 18
`
`Page 18 of 194
`
`Pat. Owner ETRI Ex. 2302
`IPR2014-00901, -00949
`VMware, IBM, & Oracle v. ETRI
`
`

`
`ROBERT HORST-4/2/2015
`
` are mirrored with respect to each other but that that
`
` pair of disks is not a RAID?
`
` MR. LASKY: Objection to the form.
`
` THE WITNESS: If the mirroring is done in
`
` realtime, as it is in our system that performs the
`
` writes simultaneously to both drives or near
`
` simultaneously, then that is a RAID 1.
`
` It's possible to have mirrored disks where
`
` there is an offline copy from one disk to the other, for
`
` instance, and that I would not consider a RAID 1.
`
` BY MR. PHILLIPS:
`
` Q What do you mean when you say "realtime"?
`
` A Realtime means that when the system is
`
` performing a write, it -- the write is sent to both
`
` drives as opposed to doing other operations and then
`
` later doing the copy, so there's some acknowledgement
`
` that that other write happened.
`
` BY MR. PHILLIPS:
`
` Q Is an acknowledgement necessary for this -- for
`
` this pair of disk drives to be a RAID array?
`
` A The acknowledgement of a write is typically
`
` done in these RAID arrays. I don't know that it's a
`
` requirement. That's getting down to a finer definition
`
` than is usually considered for RAID in terms of the
`
` details of exactly how it operates.
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 19
`
`Page 19 of 194
`
`Pat. Owner ETRI Ex. 2302
`IPR2014-00901, -00949
`VMware, IBM, & Oracle v. ETRI
`
`

`
`ROBERT HORST-4/2/2015
`
` Q And when data is read from a RAID array, does
`
` the host have any knowledge as to which disk drive the
`
` data is coming from?
`
` MR. LASKY: Objection to the form.
`
` THE WITNESS: From the host perspective, it
`
` does not know which drives the data is coming from in
`
` a -- in the normal access to a RAID array.
`
` BY MR. PHILLIPS:
`
` Q Would it be fair to say then, Dr. Horst, that
`
` in read operations, the RAID array appears as a single
`
` logical unit to the host computer?
`
` A Yes, in terms of reads, it appears as a single
`
` logical unit.
`
` Q If a host computer is able to direct a read
`
` request to a particular disk drive in an array, is that
`
` possible in a RAID array?
`
` A Once it's configured as a RAID, it's not
`
` possible, but there are some systems where before the
`
` RAID is configured, it could access the individual
`
` drive, so...
`
` Q But after it is configured as a RAID array,
`
` it's not possible for the host to individually access
`
` the disk drives that constitute the array?
`
` A Right. The accesses are fenced off from
`
` preventing it from accessing the individual drives of
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 20
`
`Page 20 of 194
`
`Pat. Owner ETRI Ex. 2302
`IPR2014-00901, -00949
`VMware, IBM, & Oracle v. ETRI
`
`

`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`ROBERT HORST-4/2/2015
`
` the array.
`
` Q Dr. Horst, I have handed you U.S. Patent Number
`
` 6,073,218. The first named inventor's last name is
`
` DeKoning, so I will refer this as the DeKoning patent.
`
` I would like you to turn your attention to the
`
` paragraph that begins on Column 1, Line 65, and ends at
`
` Column 2, Line 14.
`
` Can you find that?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q So, again, it starts at Column 1, Line 65, and
`
` ends on Column 2, Line 14.
`
` Could you please read that paragraph for the
`
` record?
`
` A "In addition, it is desirable to remove the
`
` host dependency for failover coordination" --
`
` Q Excuse me, Dr. Horst. I think we're looking at
`
` different portions of this document.
`
` May I point at your copy?
`
` A Sure.
`
` Q I'm starting right here --
`
` A Oh, Column 1.
`
` Q -- and going to here.
`
` A Okay.
`
` Q Let me restate the question.
`
` Dr. Horst, could you please read the paragraph
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 21
`
`Page 21 of 194
`
`Pat. Owner ETRI Ex. 2302
`IPR2014-00901, -00949
`VMware, IBM, & Oracle v. ETRI
`
`

`
`ROBERT HORST-4/2/2015
`
` starting at Column 1, Line 65, and ending at Column 2,
`
` Line 14?
`
` A Okay.
`
` "RAID storage subsystems typically utilize a
`
` control module that shields the user or host system from
`
` the details of managing the redundant array.
`
` The controller makes the subsystem appear to
`
` the host computer as a single highly-reliability,
`
` high-capacity disk drive.
`
` In fact, the RAID controller may distribute the
`
` host computer system supply data access across a
`
` plurality of the small dependent drives with redundancy
`
` and error-checking information so as to improve the
`
` subsystem reliability.
`
` Frequently, RAID subsystems provide large cache
`
` memory structures to further improve the performance of
`
` the RAID subsystem.
`
` The cache memory is associated with the control
`
` module, such that the storage blocks on the disk array
`
` are mapped to blocks in the cache. This mapping is also
`
` transparent to the host system.
`
` The host system simply requests blocks of data
`
` to be read or written, and the RAID controller
`
` manipulates the disk array and cache memory as
`
` required."
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 22
`
`Page 22 of 194
`
`Pat. Owner ETRI Ex. 2302
`IPR2014-00901, -00949
`VMware, IBM, & Oracle v. ETRI
`
`

`
`ROBERT HORST-4/2/2015
`
` Q Thank you, Dr. Horst.
`
` Do you agree with that passage you just read?
`
` MR. LASKY: Objection to the form.
`
` THE WITNESS: Yes, at least at a high level. I
`
` don't know if there are any individual words that I
`
` would not agree with, but the general concept I agree
`
` with.
`
` BY MR. PHILLIPS:
`
` Q Okay. Let me ask you specifically about the
`
` second sentence that reads, "The controller makes the
`
` subsystem appear to the host computer as a single
`
` highly-reliable, high-capacity disk drive."
`
` Do you agree with that sentence?
`
` MR. LASKY: Objection to the form.
`
` THE WITNESS: So I agree that the controller
`
` can make it appear as a single highly-reliable, high
`
` capacity disk drive, but it can also make the system
`
` appear as several disk drives, as I described earlier,
`
` in terms of exporting multiple logical units, not just a
`
` single logical unit.
`
` BY MR. PHILLIPS:
`
` Q Okay. Dr. Horst, I have handed you what is
`
` labeled, "The Declaration of Dr. Randy Katz Under 37
`
` CFR, Section 1.68, in Support of Petition for Inter
`
` Partes Review of U.S. Patent 6,978,366."
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 23
`
`Page 23 of 194
`
`Pat. Owner ETRI Ex. 2302
`IPR2014-00901, -00949
`VMware, IBM, & Oracle v. ETRI
`
`

`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`ROBERT HORST-4/2/2015
`
` I'm going to ask you to turn to Paragraph 36 of
`
` this declaration. It is on Page 13.
`
` Do you see that paragraph?
`
` A Paragraph 36?
`
` Q Correct, paragraph 36.
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q I'm going to first read this paragraph to you
`
` and then ask you some questions. For the sake of
`
` clarity, I'm going to skip over the parts that are in
`
` parentheses, if that's okay with you.
`
` A Okay.
`
` Q "The Chong reference is directed to efficient
`
` caching operations and failover support in data storage
`
` controllers, and/or data storage devices.
`
` The Chong reference discloses a system with a
`
` RAID configuration. Data is written identically to both
`
` storage devices 124 and 125 in the system.
`
` In addition, the configuration in the Chong
`
` reference provides fault tolerance, such that as long as
`
` one data storage device is functioning, the array
`
` continues to operate.
`
` This combination of data mirroring and fault
`
` tolerance makes the two data storage devices appear as a
`
` single reliable drive to the hosts, or, in other words,
`
` a RAID."
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 24
`
`Page 24 of 194
`
`Pat. Owner ETRI Ex. 2302
`IPR2014-00901, -00949
`VMware, IBM, & Oracle v. ETRI
`
`

`
`ROBERT HORST-4/2/2015
`
` Dr. Horst, do you agree with what I just read
`
` as Paragraph 36 of this declaration?
`
` MS. LUTTON: Objection, form.
`
` MR. LASKY: Objection, foundation and form.
`
` THE WITNESS: This is referring to a reference
`
` that I have not seen, so I can't say that I completely
`
` agree with everything in this.
`
` I don't have any specific objections, but I
`
` don't -- I can't comment on a document I haven't seen.
`
` BY MR. PHILLIPS:
`
` Q Let me ask you about the premise in the last
`
` question.
`
` My question is -- I'm sorry -- the premise in
`
` the last sentence of this paragraph.
`
` My question is: If a combination of data
`
` mirroring and fault tolerance makes two data storage
`
` devices appear as a single reliable drive to the host,
`
` is that fact sufficient to make the data storage devices
`
` be a RAID?
`
` MS. LUTTON: Objection, foundation and form.
`
` MR. LASKY: Same objections.
`
` THE WITNESS: A RAID system would fall under
`
` that definition, but I don't know if there are other
`
` types of systems that might also fall under that
`
` definition that aren't RAID systems.
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 25
`
`Page 25 of 194
`
`Pat. Owner ETRI Ex. 2302
`IPR2014-00901, -00949
`VMware, IBM, & Oracle v. ETRI
`
`

`
`ROBERT HORST-4/2/2015
`
` BY MR. PHILLIPS:
`
` Q Would you agree, Dr. Horst, that if the data
`
` storage devices satisfy the c

This document is available on Docket Alarm but you must sign up to view it.


Or .

Accessing this document will incur an additional charge of $.

After purchase, you can access this document again without charge.

Accept $ Charge
throbber

Still Working On It

This document is taking longer than usual to download. This can happen if we need to contact the court directly to obtain the document and their servers are running slowly.

Give it another minute or two to complete, and then try the refresh button.

throbber

A few More Minutes ... Still Working

It can take up to 5 minutes for us to download a document if the court servers are running slowly.

Thank you for your continued patience.

This document could not be displayed.

We could not find this document within its docket. Please go back to the docket page and check the link. If that does not work, go back to the docket and refresh it to pull the newest information.

Your account does not support viewing this document.

You need a Paid Account to view this document. Click here to change your account type.

Your account does not support viewing this document.

Set your membership status to view this document.

With a Docket Alarm membership, you'll get a whole lot more, including:

  • Up-to-date information for this case.
  • Email alerts whenever there is an update.
  • Full text search for other cases.
  • Get email alerts whenever a new case matches your search.

Become a Member

One Moment Please

The filing “” is large (MB) and is being downloaded.

Please refresh this page in a few minutes to see if the filing has been downloaded. The filing will also be emailed to you when the download completes.

Your document is on its way!

If you do not receive the document in five minutes, contact support at support@docketalarm.com.

Sealed Document

We are unable to display this document, it may be under a court ordered seal.

If you have proper credentials to access the file, you may proceed directly to the court's system using your government issued username and password.


Access Government Site

We are redirecting you
to a mobile optimized page.





Document Unreadable or Corrupt

Refresh this Document
Go to the Docket

We are unable to display this document.

Refresh this Document
Go to the Docket