`
`IPR2014-00108
`
`September 15, 2014
`
`1
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` MACRONIX INTERNATIONAL CO., LTD, MACRONIX ASIA
` LIMITED, MACRONIX (HONG KONG) CO., LTD. and MACRONIX
` AMERICA, INC.,
`
` Petitioners
` v.
` SPANSION LLC,
` Patent Owner
` ________________________________
` Case IPR2014-00108
` U.S. PATENT NO. 7,151,027
`
` Before the Honorable DEBRA K. STEPHENS, JUSTIN T.
` ARBES, and RICHARD E. RICE,
` Administrative Patent Judges
` Washington, D.C.
` Monday, September 15, 2014
` Videotaped Deposition of SHUKRI J. SOURI, PH.D.
`
` MACRONIX
`IPR2014-00898
`MX027II-1012
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`(cid:44)(cid:51)(cid:53)(cid:21)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:23)(cid:16)(cid:19)(cid:19)(cid:27)(cid:28)(cid:27)(cid:3)
`(cid:40)(cid:91)(cid:75)(cid:76)(cid:69)(cid:76)(cid:87)(cid:3)(cid:48)(cid:59)(cid:19)(cid:21)(cid:26)(cid:44)(cid:44)(cid:16)(cid:20)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:21)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:83)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:20)
`
`
`
`Souri, Ph.D., Shukri J.
`
`IPR2014-00108
`
`September 15, 2014
`
`2
`
` Videotaped Deposition of SHUKRI J. SOURI,
`PH.D., a witness herein, called for examination by
`counsel for the Petitioners in the above-entitled
`matter, pursuant to notice, the witness being duly
`sworn by KAREN YOUNG, a Notary Public in and for the
`District of Columbia, taken at the offices of Ropes &
`Gray, 700 Twelfth Street, Northwest, Washington, D.C.,
`at 9:05 a.m. on Monday, September 15, 2014, and the
`proceedings being taken down by stenotype by KAREN
`YOUNG, and transcribed under her direction.
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`(cid:44)(cid:51)(cid:53)(cid:21)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:23)(cid:16)(cid:19)(cid:19)(cid:27)(cid:28)(cid:27)(cid:3)
`(cid:40)(cid:91)(cid:75)(cid:76)(cid:69)(cid:76)(cid:87)(cid:3)(cid:48)(cid:59)(cid:19)(cid:21)(cid:26)(cid:44)(cid:44)(cid:16)(cid:20)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:21)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:83)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:21)
`
`
`
`Souri, Ph.D., Shukri J.
`
`IPR2014-00108
`
`September 15, 2014
`
`3
`
`APPEARANCES:
` On Behalf of the Petitioners:
` ANDREW R. SOMMER, ESQ.
` Winston & Strawn LLP
` 1700 K Street, Northwest
` Washington, D.C. 20006
` asommer@winston.com
` (202) 282-5896
`
` On Behalf of Spansion LLC:
` JAMES L. DAVIS, ESQ.
` Ropes & Gray LLP
` 1900 University Avenue, 6th Floor
` East Palo Alto, California 94303-2284
` james.l.davis@ropesgray.com
` (650) 617-4794
` JANICE V. JABIDO, ESQ.
` Ropes & Gray LLP
` 191 North Wacker Drive
` 32nd Floor
` Chicago, Illinois 60606-4302
` janice.jabido@ropesgray.com
` (312) 845-1259
`
` ALSO PRESENT:
` Rick Sanborn, Videographer
`
`1
`2
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6 7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`(cid:44)(cid:51)(cid:53)(cid:21)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:23)(cid:16)(cid:19)(cid:19)(cid:27)(cid:28)(cid:27)(cid:3)
`(cid:40)(cid:91)(cid:75)(cid:76)(cid:69)(cid:76)(cid:87)(cid:3)(cid:48)(cid:59)(cid:19)(cid:21)(cid:26)(cid:44)(cid:44)(cid:16)(cid:20)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:21)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:83)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:22)
`
`
`
`Souri, Ph.D., Shukri J.
`
`IPR2014-00108
`
`September 15, 2014
`
`4
`
` C O N T E N T S
`THE WITNESS:
`SHUKRI J. SOURI, PH.D.
` By Mr. Sommer............................... 6
` By Mr. Davis................................ 98
` By Mr. Sommer............................... 104
`
` E X H I B I T S
`
`SOURI EXHIBIT NO. PAGE NO.
`
`Exhibit 1 Figure 1 with color.................... 18
`Exhibit 2 Figure 3D with color................... 56
`Exhibit 3 Joint Submission Regarding Proposed
` Construction of Disputed Claim Terms.64
`Exhibit 4 Claim 1 with highlighting.............. 109
`Exhibit 5 Claim 1 with highlighting and
` added language ........................ 113
`
` - - -
`
`1 2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8 9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`(cid:44)(cid:51)(cid:53)(cid:21)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:23)(cid:16)(cid:19)(cid:19)(cid:27)(cid:28)(cid:27)(cid:3)
`(cid:40)(cid:91)(cid:75)(cid:76)(cid:69)(cid:76)(cid:87)(cid:3)(cid:48)(cid:59)(cid:19)(cid:21)(cid:26)(cid:44)(cid:44)(cid:16)(cid:20)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:21)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:83)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:23)
`
`
`
`Souri, Ph.D., Shukri J.
`
`IPR2014-00108
`
`September 15, 2014
`
`5
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Here begins Tape 1 in the
`videotaped deposition of Shukri Souri in the matter of
`Macronix International Company, Limited et al. versus
`Spansion LLC, in the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office
`before the Patent Trial and Appeal Board, Case Number
`IPR2014-00108. Today's date is September 15th, 2014.
`The time on the video monitor is 9:05 a.m. This
`deposition is being held at Ropes & Gray, 700 12th
`Street, Northwest, Washington, D.C. The court
`reporter is Karen Young. The videocamera operator is
`Rick Sanborn. Both are on behalf of Henderson Legal
`Services. Will counsel please introduce themselves
`and state whom they represent.
` MR. SOMMER: Andrew Sommer of Winston &
`Strawn LLP on behalf of the Macronix entities.
` MR. DAVIS: Jim Davis and Janice Jabido of
`Ropes & Gray for the patent owner.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you. Will the
`court reporter please swear in the witness.
`Whereupon,
` SHUKRI J. SOURI, PH.D.,
` called for examination by counsel for
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`(cid:44)(cid:51)(cid:53)(cid:21)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:23)(cid:16)(cid:19)(cid:19)(cid:27)(cid:28)(cid:27)(cid:3)
`(cid:40)(cid:91)(cid:75)(cid:76)(cid:69)(cid:76)(cid:87)(cid:3)(cid:48)(cid:59)(cid:19)(cid:21)(cid:26)(cid:44)(cid:44)(cid:16)(cid:20)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:21)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:83)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:24)
`
`
`
`Souri, Ph.D., Shukri J.
`
`IPR2014-00108
`
`September 15, 2014
`
`6
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
` the Petitioners and having been duly
` sworn by the Notary Public, was examined and
` testified as follows:
` - - -
` EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE PETITIONERS
` BY MR. SOMMER:
` Q. Good morning, sir.
` A. Good morning.
` Q. I'm Andrew Sommer, as you just heard, and I
`think you know from before, I represent Macronix in
`connection with this proceeding. You -- I know you're
`a seasoned witness. I know you've testified a number
`of times according to your C.V., so unless you have
`procedural questions about how we're going to go about
`questions and answers today, I'm just going to get
`right to it. Do you have any procedural questions?
` A. No, thank you.
` Q. Okay. You understand that you must testify
`truthfully in this proceeding; is that right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Is there any reason why you don't believe
`that you can testify truthfully today?
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`(cid:44)(cid:51)(cid:53)(cid:21)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:23)(cid:16)(cid:19)(cid:19)(cid:27)(cid:28)(cid:27)(cid:3)
`(cid:40)(cid:91)(cid:75)(cid:76)(cid:69)(cid:76)(cid:87)(cid:3)(cid:48)(cid:59)(cid:19)(cid:21)(cid:26)(cid:44)(cid:44)(cid:16)(cid:20)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:21)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:83)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:25)
`
`
`
`Souri, Ph.D., Shukri J.
`
`IPR2014-00108
`
`September 15, 2014
`
`7
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
` A. No.
` Q. And you understand that you're here to
`testify regarding U.S. patent number 7,151,027; is
`that right?
` A. That's correct.
` MR. SOMMER: Jim, just to ask you a
`question, in the depositions of our witnesses, we had
`stipulated that we could do background once so that we
`can save some time, and that we could use the
`background testimony from the first day of deposition
`in connection with any of the IPRs. Is that
`acceptable?
` MR. DAVIS: We don't have a problem. That's
`fine.
` BY MR. SOMMER:
` Q. Okay. Now, you submitted a declaration
`recently in this proceeding; is that correct?
` A. Yes, I have.
` Q. And then you submitted a corrected
`declaration; is that right?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. I'm going to hand you a previously marked
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`(cid:44)(cid:51)(cid:53)(cid:21)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:23)(cid:16)(cid:19)(cid:19)(cid:27)(cid:28)(cid:27)(cid:3)
`(cid:40)(cid:91)(cid:75)(cid:76)(cid:69)(cid:76)(cid:87)(cid:3)(cid:48)(cid:59)(cid:19)(cid:21)(cid:26)(cid:44)(cid:44)(cid:16)(cid:20)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:21)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:83)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:26)
`
`
`
`Souri, Ph.D., Shukri J.
`
`IPR2014-00108
`
`September 15, 2014
`
`8
`exhibit. This is Spansion Exhibit 2002. Sir, is that
`a copy of your declaration as submitted in connection
`with this proceeding?
` MR. DAVIS: Drew, do you have an extra copy
`of this?
` MR. SOMMER: Oh, yeah, I'm sorry.
` MR. DAVIS: Thank you.
` THE WITNESS: Yes, it is.
` BY MR. SOMMER:
` Q. And the statements in this declaration are
`truthful and correct; is that -- is that right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And you declared that the statements in this
`declaration are true under the penalty of perjury; is
`that right?
` A. Correct.
` Q. So you take your obligations to be truthful
`in the declaration and during this deposition
`seriously; is that right?
` A. Absolutely.
` Q. Now, you've testified before on behalf of
`Spansion; is that correct?
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`(cid:44)(cid:51)(cid:53)(cid:21)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:23)(cid:16)(cid:19)(cid:19)(cid:27)(cid:28)(cid:27)(cid:3)
`(cid:40)(cid:91)(cid:75)(cid:76)(cid:69)(cid:76)(cid:87)(cid:3)(cid:48)(cid:59)(cid:19)(cid:21)(cid:26)(cid:44)(cid:44)(cid:16)(cid:20)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:21)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:83)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:27)
`
`
`
`Souri, Ph.D., Shukri J.
`
`IPR2014-00108
`
`September 15, 2014
`
`9
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
` A. I have.
` Q. You were retained by Spansion for the
`purposes of submitting that declaration that I've
`marked -- or that was previously marked as Exhibit
`2002; is that right?
` A. Yes.
` MR. DAVIS: And Drew, I don't mean to
`interrupt, just whenever -- can you clarify what you
`mean by background or at least do you want to
`demarcate it on the record when you -- when we've
`gotten to that point where you're done with the
`background and now when we're moving into the '027?
` MR. SOMMER: Yeah, I think -- I think it
`will be clear because we'll start talking about the
`'027 specifically, but yes, sure.
` MR. DAVIS: Thank you.
` BY MR. SOMMER:
` Q. How many depositions have you given before
`on behalf of Spansion?
` A. I have offered the deposition at an ITC
`case.
` Q. How many ITC cases have you testified on
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`(cid:44)(cid:51)(cid:53)(cid:21)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:23)(cid:16)(cid:19)(cid:19)(cid:27)(cid:28)(cid:27)(cid:3)
`(cid:40)(cid:91)(cid:75)(cid:76)(cid:69)(cid:76)(cid:87)(cid:3)(cid:48)(cid:59)(cid:19)(cid:21)(cid:26)(cid:44)(cid:44)(cid:16)(cid:20)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:21)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:83)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:28)
`
`
`
`Souri, Ph.D., Shukri J.
`
`IPR2014-00108
`
`September 15, 2014
`
`10
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`behalf of Spansion in connection with?
` A. I believe -- related to Macronix and
`Spansion, I believe it's -- I believe it's one
`deposition, spent two days covering three patents.
` Q. Have you testified on behalf of Spansion in
`any other proceedings?
` A. There have been other proceedings prior
`involving different parties that I have testified at,
`yes.
` Q. How many other proceedings have you
`testified on behalf of Spansion in connection with?
` A. The one that I recall perhaps is the
`Spansion versus Samsung matter.
` Q. How many times did you testify on behalf of
`Spansion in the Spansion versus Samsung matter?
` A. At least once I believe. I don't recall if
`there have been others.
` Q. Did you testify in connection with an ITC
`proceeding on behalf of Spansion against Samsung?
` A. That's correct, yes, yes, so yes, you're
`right, you're reminding me that actually that there
`was an Eastern District of Virginia matter and there
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`(cid:44)(cid:51)(cid:53)(cid:21)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:23)(cid:16)(cid:19)(cid:19)(cid:27)(cid:28)(cid:27)(cid:3)
`(cid:40)(cid:91)(cid:75)(cid:76)(cid:69)(cid:76)(cid:87)(cid:3)(cid:48)(cid:59)(cid:19)(cid:21)(cid:26)(cid:44)(cid:44)(cid:16)(cid:20)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:21)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:83)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:20)(cid:19)
`
`
`
`Souri, Ph.D., Shukri J.
`
`IPR2014-00108
`
`September 15, 2014
`
`11
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`was an ITC matter, correct.
` Q. How many ITC matters were you involved with
`on behalf of Spansion as it pertained to Samsung?
` A. That I don't recall. I'd have to look at my
`list of testimony.
` Q. Okay. I'm going to hand you what's been
`previously marked as Spansion Exhibit 2003. This is a
`copy of your C.V.; is that correct?
` A. Yes, correct.
` Q. Is this an up-to-date copy of your C.V.?
` A. I believe it is, to the best of my
`recollection sitting here, yes.
` Q. This doesn't mention the ITC case between
`Spansion and Macronix, does it?
` A. That is correct, yes, that -- on the list of
`testimony within the past decade, correct, that has
`not yet been updated.
` Q. Are there any other things that have not
`been updated on this list beyond the Macronix versus
`Spansion testimony that you provided back in the
`spring?
` A. Not to the best of my recollection sitting
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`(cid:44)(cid:51)(cid:53)(cid:21)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:23)(cid:16)(cid:19)(cid:19)(cid:27)(cid:28)(cid:27)(cid:3)
`(cid:40)(cid:91)(cid:75)(cid:76)(cid:69)(cid:76)(cid:87)(cid:3)(cid:48)(cid:59)(cid:19)(cid:21)(cid:26)(cid:44)(cid:44)(cid:16)(cid:20)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:21)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:83)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:20)(cid:20)
`
`
`
`Souri, Ph.D., Shukri J.
`
`IPR2014-00108
`
`September 15, 2014
`
`12
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`here right now. There may have been an additional
`TFTLC related deposition, but I don't recall exactly.
` Q. Now, you've testified in two other
`proceedings regarding the '027 patent, is that
`correct, on behalf of Spansion?
` A. Yes, the previous one was the ITC, the
`latest ITC case that we discussed, and the one before
`that I believe was the Eastern District of Virginia.
` Q. Now, how many times have you appeared in
`court on behalf of Spansion?
` A. I recall testifying at an ITC trial on the
`Spansion versus Samsung matter.
` Q. Now, do you recall if that was the --
`actually, is that the 664 investigation four rows from
`the bottom on page 5 of Exhibit 2003?
` A. Sounds correct. I don't recall exactly, but
`yes, that sounds correct.
` Q. Beyond the trial testimony you provided in
`the 664 investigation, have you ever testified in
`court on behalf of Spansion?
` A. I don't believe so.
` Q. Are you -- do you hold yourself out as an
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`(cid:44)(cid:51)(cid:53)(cid:21)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:23)(cid:16)(cid:19)(cid:19)(cid:27)(cid:28)(cid:27)(cid:3)
`(cid:40)(cid:91)(cid:75)(cid:76)(cid:69)(cid:76)(cid:87)(cid:3)(cid:48)(cid:59)(cid:19)(cid:21)(cid:26)(cid:44)(cid:44)(cid:16)(cid:20)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:21)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:83)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:20)(cid:21)
`
`
`
`Souri, Ph.D., Shukri J.
`
`IPR2014-00108
`
`September 15, 2014
`
`13
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`expert in semiconductor processing?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Have you previously built or designed
`semiconductors from a process perspective?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Have you designed or built flash memory?
` A. I have built double EPROM devices, yes.
` Q. And in what time period did you design and
`build double EPROM devices?
` A. That was during my research at Stanford from
`the time frames of '97 through to 2002, 2003,
`thereabouts. 2002.
` Q. And did Stanford have a semiconductor lab
`that you used to build those devices?
` A. That's correct, Stanford has a fabrication
`facility for semiconductor fabrication.
` Q. And you designed the process on which you
`built those EPROM -- double EPROM devices; is that
`right?
` A. That's correct, yes.
` Q. Were they floating gate devices?
` A. Those particular ones, yes.
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`(cid:44)(cid:51)(cid:53)(cid:21)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:23)(cid:16)(cid:19)(cid:19)(cid:27)(cid:28)(cid:27)(cid:3)
`(cid:40)(cid:91)(cid:75)(cid:76)(cid:69)(cid:76)(cid:87)(cid:3)(cid:48)(cid:59)(cid:19)(cid:21)(cid:26)(cid:44)(cid:44)(cid:16)(cid:20)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:21)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:83)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:20)(cid:22)
`
`
`
`Souri, Ph.D., Shukri J.
`
`IPR2014-00108
`
`September 15, 2014
`
`14
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
` Q. Did they include any form of spacers?
` A. I had not designed them with spacers back
`then. That was for research purposes.
` Q. Did you make a decision not to include
`spacers?
` A. No, my goal was to study -- not exactly. My
`goal was to study quality of films that are deposited.
` Q. Now, on a floating gate device, those
`devices have two gates; is that right?
` MR. DAVIS: I'm just going to object to the
`scope here to the extent it's beyond the scope, and
`are we done with the background section?
` BY MR. SOMMER:
` Q. No, we're not. This is background. I'm
`talking about the devices he built at Stanford. I'll
`rephrase the question. The devices that you built at
`Stanford, the double EPROM devices --
` A. Yes.
` Q. Did those have two gates for the memory
`cells?
` A. They did, yes.
` Q. And was one of those referred to as a
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`(cid:44)(cid:51)(cid:53)(cid:21)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:23)(cid:16)(cid:19)(cid:19)(cid:27)(cid:28)(cid:27)(cid:3)
`(cid:40)(cid:91)(cid:75)(cid:76)(cid:69)(cid:76)(cid:87)(cid:3)(cid:48)(cid:59)(cid:19)(cid:21)(cid:26)(cid:44)(cid:44)(cid:16)(cid:20)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:21)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:83)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:20)(cid:23)
`
`
`
`Souri, Ph.D., Shukri J.
`
`IPR2014-00108
`
`September 15, 2014
`
`15
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`floating gate?
` A. Correct.
` Q. And the other one was a control gate?
` A. Correct.
` Q. Were they made of polysilicon?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And how was the floating gate, if at all,
`isolated from the control gate?
` A. At the time, I had used a insulation layer
`that I deposited using an oxide deposition technique.
` Q. And do you recall what that insulation layer
`in 2002 or before even, I think you said '97 --
` A. From '97 to 2002, correct.
` Q. Okay. In this time period, do you recall
`what materials you were using in that isolation?
` A. I had used a variety of films to understand
`the quality of the deposition, and that included LTO,
`which is a low-temperature oxide deposition, and in
`some cases I also followed up the LTO with a
`hydrogenation process to basically expose the films to
`a hydrogen gas to study the effect of passivating
`broken bonds and other defects.
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`(cid:44)(cid:51)(cid:53)(cid:21)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:23)(cid:16)(cid:19)(cid:19)(cid:27)(cid:28)(cid:27)(cid:3)
`(cid:40)(cid:91)(cid:75)(cid:76)(cid:69)(cid:76)(cid:87)(cid:3)(cid:48)(cid:59)(cid:19)(cid:21)(cid:26)(cid:44)(cid:44)(cid:16)(cid:20)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:21)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:83)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:20)(cid:24)
`
`
`
`Souri, Ph.D., Shukri J.
`
`IPR2014-00108
`
`September 15, 2014
`
`16
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
` Q. These layers that you applied on these
`double EPROMs -- actually, let me -- let me back up.
`Did these double EPROM devices, were they functional
`memory units?
` A. I had not tested them to -- well, they're
`functional to the extent that the operation of the
`layers, yes, I was able to apply voltages and test
`them, and also test for the capacitance of the devices
`as well, yes.
` Q. So would these devices have included
`peripheral circuits?
` A. No, I did not -- I did not design them with
`peripheral circuits.
` Q. I'd like to move on to the '027 patent.
`This is --
` MR. DAVIS: I'm sorry, just as you're moving
`on, I was noting in Exhibit 2002, at least the version
`you handed me doesn't have color. I think there might
`have been color in the declaration.
` BY MR. SOMMER:
` Q. That's fine. If it becomes relevant, just
`let me know.
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`(cid:44)(cid:51)(cid:53)(cid:21)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:23)(cid:16)(cid:19)(cid:19)(cid:27)(cid:28)(cid:27)(cid:3)
`(cid:40)(cid:91)(cid:75)(cid:76)(cid:69)(cid:76)(cid:87)(cid:3)(cid:48)(cid:59)(cid:19)(cid:21)(cid:26)(cid:44)(cid:44)(cid:16)(cid:20)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:21)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:83)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:20)(cid:25)
`
`
`
`Souri, Ph.D., Shukri J.
`
`IPR2014-00108
`
`September 15, 2014
`
`17
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
` A. I do -- I did bring with me a colored copy
`if you --
` Q. Yeah, if you need to refer to that, please
`feel free to do so. I'm going to hand to you what's
`been previously marked as Macronix MX027 dash 1001.
`It's a copy of the '027 patent that we've been
`discussing briefly this morning. Are you familiar
`with figure 1 of this patent, sir?
` A. Yes, I am.
` Q. And what is figure 1 showing us?
` A. If I may refer to the specification here in
`column 1, it says a -- around lines 32 a step exists
`where two adjacent structures have a different height
`as shown in figure 1. Then it goes on to say figure 1
`is a diagram of the side view of a portion of an
`interface area of an exemplary memory device 100 in
`accordance with the prior art.
` Q. So 110 in figure 1 -- that's substrate; is
`that right?
` A. It does refer to it in column 1 as substrate
`110.
` Q. And so is this figure showing that the
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`(cid:44)(cid:51)(cid:53)(cid:21)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:23)(cid:16)(cid:19)(cid:19)(cid:27)(cid:28)(cid:27)(cid:3)
`(cid:40)(cid:91)(cid:75)(cid:76)(cid:69)(cid:76)(cid:87)(cid:3)(cid:48)(cid:59)(cid:19)(cid:21)(cid:26)(cid:44)(cid:44)(cid:16)(cid:20)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:21)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:83)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:20)(cid:26)
`
`
`
`Souri, Ph.D., Shukri J.
`
`IPR2014-00108
`
`September 15, 2014
`
`18
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`substrate may be etched so that structures in the
`substrate can have different heights?
` A. It says that substrate 110 has been etched
`wherein two structures 115 and 120 remain.
` Q. And those structures 115 and 120 -- those
`are made of substrate; is that right?
` A. Correct.
` Q. And there's no interface structure or
`anything in this figure 1; is that right?
` A. This figure 1 is a description of the prior
`art, and it does not have an interface structure as
`taught by the '027.
` MR. SOMMER: I'm going to mark as Exhibit 1
`to this deposition -- actually, maybe I'm not. Yes, I
`am. It's a color copy of figure 1 with some -- some
`annotations on it.
` (Souri Exhibit 1
` was marked for
` identification.)
` BY MR. SOMMER:
` Q. Now, I've handed you Exhibit 1 to this
`declaration, and I've colored what I believe to be
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`(cid:44)(cid:51)(cid:53)(cid:21)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:23)(cid:16)(cid:19)(cid:19)(cid:27)(cid:28)(cid:27)(cid:3)
`(cid:40)(cid:91)(cid:75)(cid:76)(cid:69)(cid:76)(cid:87)(cid:3)(cid:48)(cid:59)(cid:19)(cid:21)(cid:26)(cid:44)(cid:44)(cid:16)(cid:20)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:21)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:83)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:20)(cid:27)
`
`
`
`Souri, Ph.D., Shukri J.
`
`IPR2014-00108
`
`September 15, 2014
`
`19
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`110, which is substrate, in blue. Am I correct that
`the blue area is substrate in figure 1?
` A. In figure 1 it is referred to as a
`substrate, but I just want to also add -- so that's an
`answer to your question. I also want to add that in
`the specification of the '027, it does refer to the
`figures as being illustrative and simplified
`descriptions to focus in on the issues and the
`challenges that are raised by the prior art and how
`the '027 is directed to address any of those
`challenges.
` MR. SOMMER: Okay, I'm going to move to
`strike the remainder of that answer as being not
`responsive to my question.
` MR. DAVIS: And we will oppose the motion.
` THE WITNESS: Just -- well, suppose there's
`no need, but it does say, for example, in column 3 --
` BY MR. SOMMER:
` Q. There's no question pending, sir.
` A. I understand.
` Q. We can get to column 3 here in a few minutes
`if you'd like, but now, items 130 in figure number 1,
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`(cid:44)(cid:51)(cid:53)(cid:21)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:23)(cid:16)(cid:19)(cid:19)(cid:27)(cid:28)(cid:27)(cid:3)
`(cid:40)(cid:91)(cid:75)(cid:76)(cid:69)(cid:76)(cid:87)(cid:3)(cid:48)(cid:59)(cid:19)(cid:21)(cid:26)(cid:44)(cid:44)(cid:16)(cid:20)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:21)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:83)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:20)(cid:28)
`
`
`
`Souri, Ph.D., Shukri J.
`
`IPR2014-00108
`
`September 15, 2014
`
`20
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`what are those?
` A. The specification refers to items 130 as
`stringer spacers.
` Q. Now, what is a stringer spacer?
` A. A stringer spacer -- stringer spacers in
`general are formed as a result of the differences in
`the step heights in interface area, and as an etching
`process is performed, side wall spacers can be etched,
`and because of the uncontrollable height on either
`side of the interface area due to differences of
`processing, for example, of periphery components and
`operational components or memory area, you end up due
`to the uncontrollable height potentially with such
`stringer spacers.
` Q. Now, what are stringer spacers made of?
` A. They would be, for example, made of the same
`material that the side wall spacers that they were
`intended to be would have been made of, so it could be
`a dielectric, it could be anything that the
`semiconductor engineer decides what they would use for
`such side wall spacers.
` Q. So would those be formed -- stringer spacers
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`(cid:44)(cid:51)(cid:53)(cid:21)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:23)(cid:16)(cid:19)(cid:19)(cid:27)(cid:28)(cid:27)(cid:3)
`(cid:40)(cid:91)(cid:75)(cid:76)(cid:69)(cid:76)(cid:87)(cid:3)(cid:48)(cid:59)(cid:19)(cid:21)(cid:26)(cid:44)(cid:44)(cid:16)(cid:20)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:21)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:83)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:21)(cid:19)
`
`
`
`Souri, Ph.D., Shukri J.
`
`IPR2014-00108
`
`September 15, 2014
`
`21
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`would be formed at the same time that the other side
`wall spacers on the active devices might be formed; is
`that right?
` A. That may be the case but not necessarily.
`There are a number of, for example, dielectric layers
`that are deposited and subsequently etched for various
`reasons, such as forming contact holes, for example,
`and other purposes that may result in the formation of
`stringer spacers. It's not for a -- one particular
`reason definitely.
` Q. But one example of a reason why stringer
`spacers might be formed in this interface area of
`figure 1 would be that spacers were being formed
`elsewhere on the chip and these were also formed
`during that process; is that right?
` A. For example -- well, let me -- let me -- I
`looked at the specification for guidance to answer
`your question accurately. In column 1, it says around
`line 43 side wall spacers are commonly formed after
`the individual transistors of the memory array have
`been formed. When side wall spacers are formed,
`stringer spacers, for example, stringer spacers 130
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`(cid:44)(cid:51)(cid:53)(cid:21)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:23)(cid:16)(cid:19)(cid:19)(cid:27)(cid:28)(cid:27)(cid:3)
`(cid:40)(cid:91)(cid:75)(cid:76)(cid:69)(cid:76)(cid:87)(cid:3)(cid:48)(cid:59)(cid:19)(cid:21)(cid:26)(cid:44)(cid:44)(cid:16)(cid:20)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:21)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:83)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:21)(cid:20)
`
`
`
`Souri, Ph.D., Shukri J.
`
`IPR2014-00108
`
`September 15, 2014
`
`22
`and 31, are formed in the interface area at the steps.
` Q. So where the patent says when side wall
`spacers are formed, what do you understand that to
`mean?
` A. I'm sorry, can you point me to where it says
`when side wall spacers are formed?
` Q. Yeah, it's in the passage that you just
`read, column 1, line 45.
` A. Yes, when side wall spacers are formed,
`stringer spacers are formed in the interface area, so
`at the time that side wall spacers are formed, in this
`passage, side wall spacers are commonly formed after
`the individual transistors of the memory array have
`been formed, stringer spacers are formed at the
`interface area of the steps.
` Q. So simultaneously with the formation of the
`spacers around the individual transistors of the
`memory array, we might form spacers at the interface;
`is that right?
` A. That could happen.
` Q. And that's what the patent is referring to
`as prior art in column 1; is that right?
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`(cid:44)(cid:51)(cid:53)(cid:21)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:23)(cid:16)(cid:19)(cid:19)(cid:27)(cid:28)(cid:27)(cid:3)
`(cid:40)(cid:91)(cid:75)(cid:76)(cid:69)(cid:76)(cid:87)(cid:3)(cid:48)(cid:59)(cid:19)(cid:21)(cid:26)(cid:44)(cid:44)(cid:16)(cid:20)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:21)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:83)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:21)(cid:21)
`
`
`
`Souri, Ph.D., Shukri J.
`
`IPR2014-00108
`
`September 15, 2014
`
`23
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
` A. Yes.
` Q. Now, why is the spacer material shown in
`figure 1 being deposited at the interface area at all?
` A. Why is it showing the stringer spacers at
`all?
` Q. Yeah, why is it being formed at the
`interface?
` A. Why is it -- during a deposition of a
`dielectric layer, for example, and if there are no
`other materials that have been deposited to protect,
`for example, that region, there could be some
`dielectric material that is also deposited in the
`interface area.
` Q. So materials that could have been deposited
`to protect the interface might include like a mask; is
`that right?
` A. A mask or -- yes, a mask would be a general
`term, yes.
` Q. So am I correct, if you don't mask the
`interface and you're depositing spacers around the
`active transistors, you might end up with spacers
`being formed in the interface as well; is that
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson