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` D. Brahmbhatt
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`--------------------------------x
`MACRONIX INTERNATIONAL CO., LTD.,
`MACRONIX ASIA LIMITED, MACRONIX
`(HONG KONG) CO., LTD., and
`MACRONIX AMERICA, INC.,
` Petitioner,
` - against - IPR2014-00105
` Patent 6,731,536 B1
`SPANSION, LLC,
`
` Patent Owner.
`--------------------------------x
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
` DHAVAL J. BRAHMBHATT
` New York, New York
` Tuesday, July 2, 2014
`
`Reported by:
`THOMAS A. FERNICOLA, RPR
`JOB NO. 81809
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`Spansion Exhibit 2005
`Macronix et al v. Spansion
`IPR2014-00898
`Page 00001
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` D. Brahmbhatt
`2 A P P E A R A N C E S:
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`34
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` D. Brahmbhatt
`
` July 2, 2014
` 9:02 a.m.
`
` Videotaped Deposition of DHAVAL J.
`BRAHMBHATT, held at the Law Offices of Winston &
`Strawn, LLP, 200 Park Avenue, New York, New York,
`before Thomas A. Fernicola, a Registered
`Professional Reporter and Notary Public of the
`State of New York.
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` D. Brahmbhatt
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the start
` of tape labeled No. 1 of the videotaped of
` Dhaval Brahmbhatt in the matter of Macronix
` International Company, Limited, et al.,
` versus Spansion, LLC, in the United States
` Patent and Trademark Office, Before the
` Patent Trial and Appeal Board, Case No.
` IPR2014-00105.
` This deposition is being held at 200
` Park Avenue, New York, New York, on
` July 2nd, 2014, at approximately 9:02 a.m.
` My name is Robert Rinkewhich from TSG
` Reporting, Inc. and I'm the legal video
` specialist.
` The court reporter is Tom Fernicola,
` in association with TSG Reporting, Inc.
` Will counsel please introduce
` yourself.
` MR. BAUGHMAN: J. Steven Baughman,
` from Ropes & Gray, for Patent Owner.
` MS. JABIDO: Janice Jabido, Ropes &
` Gray.
` MR. MURRAY: This is Michael Murray
` from Winston & Strawn, for Petitioners.
`
` WINSTON & STRAWN
` Attorneys for Petitioner
` 200 Park Avenue
` New York, New York 10166
` BY: MICHAEL MURRAY, ESQ.
`
` ROPES & GRAY
` Attorneys for Patent Owner
` One Metro Center
` 700 12th Street, NW
` Washington, D.C. 20005
` BY: J. STEVEN BAUGHMAN, ESQ.
`
` - and -
`
` ROPES & GRAY
` 191 North Wacker Drive
` Chicago, Illinois 60606
` BY: JANICE JABIDO, ESQ.
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`25 ALSO PRESENT:
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` D. Brahmbhatt
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court
` reporter please swear in the witness.
`
`D H A V A L J. B R A H M B H A T T,
` called as a witness, having been duly sworn
` by a Notary Public, was examined and
` testified as follows:
`BY THE REPORTER:
` Q. Please state your full name and
` address for the record.
` A. Dhaval J. Brahmbhatt, 25 North 14th
` Street, Suite 400, San Jose, California 95112.
` MR. BAUGHMAN: Counsel, just at the
` outset, I want to state for the record the
` parties' stipulation that to save time
` testimony on background issues in this
` deposition can be used and entered in
` IPR2014-00108, as well as in this trial
` proceeding; is that right?
` MR. MURRAY: Yes. That is right. It
` will probably be obvious when you finish
` the background, but maybe if you would just
` sort of state for the record so we have a
` clear --
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`Page 34
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` D. Brahmbhatt
` even a slightest change, you had to go through
` a defined process of approval with the
` customer.
` So sometimes the documentation will
` be determined by that large customer we had,
` but other than that, we had standard
` documentation.
` Q. What kind of standard
` documentation --
` A. The company had a documentation
` department and all these things were properly
` documented.
` Q. We've been talking about the example
` of National Semiconductor.
` Did you also have documentation at
` other places you worked?
` A. Oh, yes. I think, in fact, the first
` thing I learned when I started at VISHAY
` Semiconductor, the documentation was actually
` over there even more strictly enforced. So
` that was good training to start with.
` Q. And when you were at Smart Module and
` you were looking at different semiconductor
` products from different vendors, how would you
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` D. Brahmbhatt
` determine as an initial cut what features were
` in the different products?
` A. That's a good question. As I
` mentioned, at Smart Modular, we were doing
` subsystems, modules or cards, as we called
` them, memory cards. And the primary component,
` flash memory was a primary component.
` And as it turns out in our industry,
` these things are usually compatible with each
` other; in other words, when you look at data
` sheets, people try to, whether you pick from
` Vendor A, Vendor B, Vendor C, if they're
` competing in that market with a product that
` has the same density, then they would come up
` with data sheets that are compatible.
` So there are industry acceptable
` standards, you know, developed by organizations
` such as jdac and others where these things are
` standardized; and, therefore, more often than
` not, you will find data sheets that are quite
` compatible with each other.
` Q. And the data sheets would be
` something you looked at Smart Module or other
` companies to understand what was in the chips?
`Page 37
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` D. Brahmbhatt
` A. That would be the primary thing I
` would look at. And coming from the
` semiconductor industry, I had also developed
` data sheets, so I was quite familiar with those
` documents.
` Q. I think you testified that at
` National Semiconductor, one of the changes that
` was happening for your product line which was
` successful was introducing higher densities.
` Can you talk a little bit more about
` what that means?
` A. Well, and that happens and that was
` not unique to National Semiconductor, I should
` say. Companies, you know, year after year they
` would come up with new products. Sometimes
` they would involve just the same density and
` additional features, but quite often that would
` involve expanded size of the memory, higher
` density that was put in.
` Q. So by that you mean more memory in
` the same space?
` A. I don't know if it was the same
` space. The reason being, the chip size would
` vary; in other words, as you -- as you come up
`
` D. Brahmbhatt
` with a higher density memory product, there is
` always a combination of what technology you
` would use, what cell size you would use.
` So, as an example, as you go through
` manufacturing, you are able to, using the same
` technology, develop a smaller memory set over a
` period of period of time as you learn, because
` initially on purpose you make it a little
` larger so that you are able to at least produce
` it. And then as you learn more, you get a
` better handle over manufacturing issues.
` So sometimes you could introduce a
` higher density product using the same
` manufacturing technology, but the cell size may
` be smaller. Therefore, even though the memory
` density is higher, the size of the chip may not
` increase as much. In other words, just because
` you doubled the number of memory cells, the
` size of the chip may not increase by the same
` ratio.
` Now, that is one aspect. The other
` one would be that we would deploy a new
` technology, process technology, and the
` advanced process technologies then would allow
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` D. Brahmbhatt
` you to make substantial reduction in the size
` of the chip, and, therefore, the old ratios
` will change again. So there were just
` different factors that would come into play.
` Q. But you were trying for a smaller
` size and higher density when that was possible?
` A. That's common in the industry that
` people would try to, we call it -- and I've
` said that somewhere in my report, it's the most
` expensive real estate in the world. So you try
` to, as far as possible.
` But you have to be judicious about
` it; in other words, there are design rules that
` have to be followed and the design rules are
` developed in collaboration by all people
` involved, you know, processing units, design
` engineers, manufacturing engineers, all these
` people, device engineers, they all get together
` and, you know, agree on what can be done.
` Q. I think you mentioned earlier that
` one of the other things you were focusing on
` were design changes in your product line, was
` it scribe line structuring?
` A. I did not mention, but, yes, scribe
`
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` D. Brahmbhatt
` lines are also an important aspect of a chip,
` because you've got this wafer, and then there
` are multiple copies of the same device that are
` being produced on one wafer. And they're
` separated from each other by structures called
` scribe lines, where you use a diamond saw after
` the wafer is finished being processed, and then
` you use a diamond saw to cut through those.
` And they look like the streets in a
` city like New York when you look from the top
` and they run vertical and horizontal, and you
` use a diamond saw to -- now they are using
` laser saw, as well. So one way or the other
` you just cut through that structure called
` scribe line, as the name suggests, you scribe
` through it, and then you are able to pick up
` individual chips that will be then packaged
` into semiconductor devices that will be then
` used in systems.
` Q. And these developments we've been
` talking about, higher densities, what we just
` discussed in scribe lines, were those features
` that were important generally to people
` designing chips at the time, in your
`
`Page 41
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` D. Brahmbhatt
` understanding?
` A. Can you repeat the question?
` Q. Yes.
` So we talked a little bit about some
` of the design changes you considered at
` National Semiconductor, looking at trying to
` get more density on chips; correct, that was
` one of them?
` A. Also adding features. I mean, there
` were a whole bunch of things. Making the chips
` more manufacturable. I mean, I would be on the
` test floor. I would be in the manufacturing,
` you know, facility. I would be going regularly
` to the packaging facility that we had in those
` days at Bangkok.
` So, I mean, a variety of things. And
` I had the ability to roll up my sleeves and
` work with the engineers. So it was not just
` one thing.
` Q. Were these challenges that people
` faced in the industry generally?
` A. Oh, yes, yes. I don't think it was
` anything unique offered in that sense to me. I
` think maybe the difference was that this
`
` D. Brahmbhatt
` product line, and probably that's true for many
` memory products, your profit margins are thin,
` and you're trying to -- you're trying to
` squeeze even a fraction of a penny from
` anywhere you can. So those things are
` important.
` Q. So, obviously, losing -- losing chips
` in the manufacturing process would cost you
` money; right?
` A. Oh, yes, yes. So that is part of it.
` But you could lose chips many different places.
` For example, you could -- people could steal
` your stuff. I mean, these things happen.
` And so, therefore, you know, one of
` the references we have talked about how to
` trace lost -- so it's important, but also
` managing the cost of different steps, how much
` would you pay for that blank wafer, how much
` did you pay for packaging that unit, how much
` did you pay for testing it. Everything else.
` Q. And you said it's some of the most
` expensive real estate in the world.
` So the way you use area on a chip has
` an impact on cost, as well?
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