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`NEIL HANNEMANN
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`April 30, 2015
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`Prepared for you by
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`Bingham Farms/Southfield • Grand Rapids
`Ann Arbor • Detroit • Flint • Jackson • Lansing • Mt. Clemens • Saginaw
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`FORD 1243
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`NEIL HANNEMANNNEIL HANNEMANN
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`April 30, 2015April 30, 2015
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`------------------------------x
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`FORD MOTOR COMPANY, :
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` Petitioner, :
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`vs. : IPR2014-00884
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`PAICE LLC & ABELL FOUNDATION, :
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`INC., :
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` Patent Owner. :
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`------------------------------x
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` Volume 1
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` Deposition of NEIL HANNEMANN
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` Washington, DC 20005
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` Thursday, April 30, 2015
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` 3:07 p.m.
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`Job No.: 81418
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`Pages: 1 - 60
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`Reported by: Janet A. Hamilton, RDR
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`FORD 1243
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`NEIL HANNEMANNNEIL HANNEMANN
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`April 30, 2015April 30, 2015
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` Deposition of NEIL HANNEMANN, held at the
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`office of:
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`Page 2Page 2
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`Fish & Richardson, PC
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`1425 K Street, NW
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`11th Floor
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`Washington, DC 20005
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`(202) 783-5070
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`Pursuant to Notice, before Janet A. Hamilton,
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`Registered Diplomate Reporter and Notary Public in and
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`for the District of Columbia.
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`NEIL HANNEMANNNEIL HANNEMANN
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`April 30, 2015April 30, 2015
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
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`Page 3Page 3
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`ON BEHALF OF PETITIONER:
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`FRANK A. ANGILERI, ESQUIRE
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`JOHN P. RONDINI, ESQUIRE
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`BROOKS KUSHMAN, PC
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`1000 Town Center
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`22nd Floor
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`Southfield, Michigan 48075
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`(248) 358-4400
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` -and-
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`THOMAS W. YEH, ESQUIRE
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`LATHAM & WATKINS, LLP
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`555 Eleventh Street, NW
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`Suite 1000
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`Washington, DC 20004
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`(202) 637-2200
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`ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER:
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`BRIAN J. LIVEDALEN, ESQUIRE
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`FISH & RICHARDSON
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`1425 K Street, NW
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`11th Floor
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`Washington, DC 20005
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`(202) 783-5070
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`NEIL HANNEMANNNEIL HANNEMANN
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`April 30, 2015April 30, 2015
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` C O N T E N T S
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`EXAMINATION OF NEIL HANNEMANN PAGE
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`By Mr. Rondini 5
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`Page 4Page 4
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` E X H I B I T S
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` (Attached to the transcript)
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`HANNEMANN DEPOSITION EXHIBIT
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`Ex. 8 Declaration of Neil Hannemann in 5
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` Support of the Patent Owner's Response
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` Case IPR 2014-00884
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` Patent 7,104,347
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`Ex. 9 United States Patent No. 5,841,201 6
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` Tabata, et al.
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`Ex. 10 United States Patent No. 7,104,347 13
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` Severinsky, et al.
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`Ex. 11 Hand drawing engine speed/torque 40
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`NEIL HANNEMANNNEIL HANNEMANN
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`April 30, 2015April 30, 2015
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
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` -----
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` (Hannemann Deposition Exhibit No. 8 was
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`pre-marked for identification and is attached to the
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`transcript.)
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` NEIL HANNEMANN,
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`a witness herein, being duly sworn, testified as
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`follows:
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` EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PETITIONER
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`BY MR. RONDINI:
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` Q Good afternoon, Mr. Hannemann.
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` A Good afternoon.
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` Q I'm going to hand you what's been marked
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`Exhibit No. 8, and if it's okay we're just going to
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`continue the numbering from the previous one.
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` MR. LIVEDALEN: Yeah, sure. Thanks.
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` Q Mr. Hannemann, what is Exhibit No. 8 that I
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`just handed you?
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` A That's my declaration in IPR2015-00884 [sic]
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`for patent 7,104,347.
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` Q And do you recall what references you were
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`reviewing with respect to this declaration?
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` A It's in the table of contents, but it's
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`reference we call Caraceni, and then there were two,
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`two patents by Tabata.
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`NEIL HANNEMANNNEIL HANNEMANN
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`April 30, 2015April 30, 2015
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` Q The Tabata '201 patent and the '501 patent?
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` A That's correct.
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` Q Could you turn to page 60 of your report.
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`Page 60 starts your analysis with respect to the
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`Tabata '201 and Tabata '501 patent; correct?
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` A Yes.
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` Q You start off in paragraph 113 talking about
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`Tabata 1, and it calculates demand power; is that
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`correct?
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` A Yes.
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` Q Can you explain what demand power means?
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` A Well, it can be contextual. So I have to
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`remember how Tabata used that, and demand power I
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`refer to it as instantaneous drive power.
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` Q Paragraph 113 you also talk about how Tabata
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`'201 determines or calculates instantaneous drive
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`power; is that correct?
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` A Well, I said it can be calculated by the
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`product being torque. I'm not sure that Tabata's
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`doing exactly that way.
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` (Hannemann Deposition Exhibit No. 9 was
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`marked for identification and is attached to the
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`transcript.)
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` Q Mr. Hannemann, what's been marked and handed
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`to you as Exhibit No. 9 is US Patent 5,841,201. Do
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`NEIL HANNEMANNNEIL HANNEMANN
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`April 30, 2015April 30, 2015
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`you recognize this patent?
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` A Yes, I do.
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` Q What is this patent?
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` A This is the what we refer to as the Tabata
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`'201 patent.
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` Q Okay. Can you turn to paragraph 121 of your
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`report? Paragraph 121 you continue talking about
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`instantaneous demand power, and then you conclude the
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`paragraph by illustrating figure 5 of Caraceni; is
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`that correct?
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` A Yes.
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` Q Why did you insert the figure from Caraceni
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`to your discussion of Tabata '201?
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` A Well, it's just in the references we had
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`involved six IPRs just one where there was a torque in
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`power curve, and I just picked that as an example.
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` Q Why did you feel that was important?
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` A I did it to show that there is, you know,
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`more than one torque curve if you're not at wide open
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`throttle that you could have various torque levels,
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`and then to, just to digitize the, the torque curve to
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`create some of the other graphs that I created in the
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`declaration.
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` Q Okay. What do you mean by digitize the
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`graphs?
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`April 30, 2015April 30, 2015
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` A Well, just to pull off the values and get
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`torque and, torque and RPM. I could have used fewer
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`values and just scaled it off, but it's just the way I
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`did it.
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` Q So you're referring to paragraph 123? Is
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`that what you're looking at where you have a chart
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`with engine speed and torque? Is that what you're
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`talking about --
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` A Yes.
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` Q -- with digitizing?
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` A That's the data from the graph. So that was
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`the purpose for using this graph.
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` Q So is it fair to say that you extrapolated
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`the data from the graph shown in paragraph 121 to
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`generate the chart shown in 123?
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` A That's accurate, yes.
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` Q Okay. And you did that I believe you just
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`testified in order to generate the figures and graphs
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`that you have in paragraphs 124 and 126 of your
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`report; is that correct?
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` A Yes.
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` Q What are you showing in paragraph 126 of
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`your report?
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` A Well, they're all, those few paragraphs are
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`all related, but 126 just shows a control sample of a
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`control strategy that would compare road load to a
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`setpoint.
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` Q What control strategy is it a sample of?
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` MR. LIVEDALEN: Objection. Vague.
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` A Yeah. This would be out of the subject
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`matter.
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` Q So it's your opinion that paragraph 126, the
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`chart in paragraph 126 is illustrating the control
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`strategy as disclosed by the '347 patent?
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` A Yes.
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` Q What are you representing on the y-axis?
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` A Of the graph in 126?
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` Q Correct.
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` A Yeah. That's the 5 Newton meters is 30
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`percent of the 115 Newton meters of the Caraceni
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`engine.
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` Q I want to back up and be more general. Just
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`on the y-axis what are you illustrating on the y-axis
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`in general?
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` A Oh, it's engine torque.
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` Q Engine torque. And is the x-axis
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`illustrating engine speed?
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` A Yes.
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` Q And what does the area shaded in green
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`represent?
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` A That's torque values that are above 30
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`percent of the maximum torque output.
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` Q And what is occurring in the area shaded
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`green?
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` A Well, various things could occur. It's just
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`showing above and below the setpoint.
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` Q Well, with respect to the control strategy
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`the '347 what would happen above in the green area?
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` MR. LIVEDALEN: Objection. Vague.
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` A Well, that's the decision to turn on and
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`operate the engine.
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` Q And below in the red area, what's happening
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`there?
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` A In the red area the engine would not be
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`operated and you'd have an electric-only mode.
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` Q Okay. Sticking with this graph shown in
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`paragraph 126, if we had an engine torque value of 60
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`Newton meters and engine speed of 2,000 RPM, what
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`would the control strategy of the '347 do?
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` MR. LIVEDALEN: Objection. Vague.
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`Incomplete hypothetical. Foundation.
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` A I didn't do this, this graph to illustrate
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`the entire working of the control strategy. So I'd
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`have to probably read through the patent to try to
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`figure that out. That's not something I analyzed.
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`This was done to get a comparison really to lead in to
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`the later graph where I compare the power threshold to
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`the torque threshold.
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` Q Well, you previously testified this is the
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`control strategy of the '347; correct?
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` A This is based on the control strategy. It's
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`not a full disclosure of the control strategy.
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` Q What's missing from it?
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` A Well, there's other modes of operation that
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`this graph doesn't, doesn't describe.
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` Q What other modes?
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` A All this graph is describing is the, the 30
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`percent MTO setpoint which the engine operates or
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`doesn't operate. That's all it's doing.
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` Q Okay. So based just on the graph here, if
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`you had an engine torque value of 60 Newton meters and
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`engine speed of 2,000 RPM, what would the operational
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`mode be?
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` MR. LIVEDALEN: Objection. Vague.
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`Foundation. Incomplete hypothetical.
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` A Yeah. That's not an analysis that I've
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`done.
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` Q You previously testified that the green area
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`that's shaded on this graph is where the engine
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`operates; is that correct?
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` A Yes.
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` Q And red area is where the motor operates; is
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`that correct?
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` A Yes, and there may be motor operation in the
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`green area. I just didn't go to that level of detail.
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` Q What do you mean there may be motor
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`operation in the green area?
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` A If the motor's supplementing the maximum
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`torque of the engine.
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` Q Where is the maximum torque of the engine
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`illustrated on this graph?
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` A Well, the maximum I use for the 30 percent
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`is 115 Newton meters which is along in the blue line
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`probably between 4,000 and 5,000 RPM.
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` Q So the maximum torque output is above every
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`portion that's shaded in green; isn't that correct?
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` A That's the maximum torque at that particular
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`engine speed.
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` Q So is it your opinion that control strategy
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`as described in '347 the motor can operate somewhere
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`in the green shaded area?
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` MR. LIVEDALEN: Objection. Vague.
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` A I think there's, there's other modes that I
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`didn't put on this graph. So could there be? Yes,
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`it's possible, but I didn't analyze every mode on this
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`graph. Like I said, this was just used to illustrate
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`the 30 percent MTO setpoint.
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` Q And the 30 percent MTO setpoint, that's the
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`claim setpoint of the '347 patent?
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` MR. LIVEDALEN: Objection. Vague.
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`Mischaracterizes previous testimony. Calls for legal
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`conclusion.
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` A It is a setpoint at least as claimed in
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`claim 23.
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` Q What about claim 1 of the '347 patent?
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` A I don't have a section in my declaration
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`about claim 1 in particular.
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` (Hannemann Deposition Exhibit No. 10 was
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`marked for identification and is attached to the
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`transcript.)
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` Q Mr. Hannemann you've just been handed
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`Exhibit No. 10 which is US Patent 7,104,347. Do you
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`recognize this exhibit?
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` A Yes, I do.
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` Q What is this exhibit?
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` A It's what you just said it was.
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` Q This is the '347 you were just referring to?
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` A Yes.
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` Q Could you turn to column 58 of the '347
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`patent. Do you see setpoint mentioned within claim 1
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`April 30, 2015April 30, 2015
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`of the '347 patent?
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` A Yes, I do.
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` Q Is the setpoint that is recited in claim 1
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`of the '347 patent the same setpoint you're
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`illustrating in paragraph 126 of your report?
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` MR. LIVEDALEN: Objection. Calls for legal
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`conclusion.
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` A No. It could be, and the setpoints are
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`illustrated values in the patent, and someone of skill
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`in the art would take this patent and then apply it to
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`the calibration of implementing the patent, and they
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`may come up with a slightly different value, and the
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`different vehicles applying this technology may have a
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`different value. So the numbers here are, are
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`illustrative.
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` Q I realize the numbers are illustrative. I'm
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`wondering, you have a torque value illustrated here as
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`a setpoint; is that correct?
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` A Yes.
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` Q And you said that's the setpoint as recited
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`in claim 23 of the '347 patent; is that correct?
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` MR. LIVEDALEN: Objection. Mischaracterizes
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`previous testimony.
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` A Yeah. I use 30 percent. 30 percent is in
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`more than one claim, and it also is substantially less
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`than the maximum torque output as claim 1 describes.
`
` Q Can you look at claim 6 of the '347 patent?
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` A Yes.
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` Q Does claim 6 recite a setpoint that's at
`
`least 30 percent of the maximum torque output of the
`
`engine?
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` A It actually says at least approximately 30
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`percent of the maximum torque output.
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` Q So with claim 6 as guidance, is it fair to
`
`say that the 35 Newton meter setpoint you have
`
`illustrated in paragraph 126 is representative of that
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`setpoint?
`
` A It would also apply to that setpoint, yes.
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` Q So is it fair to say that since claim 6
`
`depends from claim 1, the 35 Newton meter setpoint you
`
`have illustrated in paragraph 126 is illustrative of
`
`the setpoint claimed in or recited in claim 1?
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` A Well, I'm not sure that I was doing that
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`kind of analysis when I picked the number for the
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`graph. So if we're still talking in context to the
`
`graph, I would say that I wouldn't apply that kind of
`
`statement.
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` Q But this setpoint you have illustrated in
`
`paragraph 126, the graph in 126 of your report, it is
`
`representative of the setpoint as recited in claim 6
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`NEIL HANNEMANNNEIL HANNEMANN
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`April 30, 2015April 30, 2015
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`of the '347 patent; is that correct?
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` A It does illustratively represent that, yes,
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`it does.
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` Q With respect to the setpoint illustrated in
`
`paragraph 126, why did you illustrate it as a straight
`
`line that's parallel to the engine speed x-axis?
`
` A Well, because it's a fixed value. It's 30
`
`percent of the maximum torque output gives you a
`
`constant number.
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` Q Is it always going to be a straight line?
`
` A You know, I think that's -- as I said
`
`before, somebody applying the patent would calibrate
`
`the system and, you know, applying the patent there's
`
`some, there's some scope to calibrating to a
`
`particular car, and that may change the value. It
`
`could make it change the character of the line or
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`change the values.
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` Q Okay. You said it could change the
`
`character of the line. Can you please explain what
`
`you meant by that?
`
` A Yes. Some -- someone may choose to, to not
`
`have it a constant value across the entire RPM range.
`
` Q Well, what example could you provide that
`
`would be a nonconstant value across the entire RPM
`
`range?
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`April 30, 2015April 30, 2015
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`Page 17Page 17
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` A Well, I could imagine somebody might apply
`
`the, the torque at that particular RPM.
`
` Q Could you explain that a little bit more.
`
`I'm not sure I understand.
`
` A I'm just looking through to see if there's
`
`an example.
`
` Q Sure. Mr. Hannemann, let's start with a
`
`different question. Could the claim setpoint, the
`
`claim setpoint vary as a function of vehicle speed?
`
` MR. LIVEDALEN: Objection. Vague. Calls
`
`for a legal conclusion.
`
` A Well, I think there's scope to vary it I
`
`think in different claims, and it generally specifies
`
`maximum torque output, but it doesn't say, specify if
`
`that's the maximum of the engine at any RPM or if it's
`
`at the RPM that the engine's operating at. So I think
`
`there's some interpretation there.
`
` Q Okay. Well, let's start with my question
`
`though. Could -- could the setpoint you've
`
`illustrated in paragraph 126 of your report, could
`
`that vary as a function of vehicle speed?
`
` MR. LIVEDALEN: Same objection.
`
` A Well, the setpoint and the scope it talks
`
`about being, the term here at least approximately 30
`
`percent, and it's not specific as to whether that
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`April 30, 2015April 30, 2015
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`would always be a fixed value or if you could vary it
`
`within a particular control. So I guess there's
`
`not -- it's not specific on that issue.
`
` Q So you can't answer whether or not the
`
`setpoint you've illustrated in paragraph 126 could
`
`vary as a function of vehicle speed?
`
` MR. LIVEDALEN: Same objections.
`
`Mischaracterizes previous testimony.
`
` A Yeah. I can't -- I can't say for sure.
`
` Q What about varying the setpoint you have
`
`illustrated in paragraph 126 as a function of engine
`
`speed?
`
` MR. LIVEDALEN: Objection. Vague. Calls
`
`for a legal conclusion.
`
` A Yeah. I think that that's possible, but I
`
`can't really say one way or the other if it's, you
`
`know, required in the claim or not.
`
` Q Well, could you look at claim 5 of '347?
`
` A Okay. Well, there it is. Thank you.
`
` Q No problem.
`
` A Yes. So it may be varied by the control as
`
`a function of engine speed.
`
` Q So how would the setpoints you have
`
`illustrated in paragraph 126 vary as a function of
`
`engine speed?
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`Page 19Page 19
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` A Well, again --
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` MR. LIVEDALEN: Same objections.
`
` A This just says it can be varied. It doesn't
`
`say how you would do it. So I can imagine different
`
`ways of doing it, but the patent doesn't specify that.
`
` Q I realize that, but as someone skilled in
`
`the art who's read these patents and opined on them,
`
`in your opinion what examples can you provide of a
`
`setpoint that varies as a function of engine speed?
`
` MR. LIVEDALEN: Same objections.
`
` A Well, if you were to apply the 30 percent to
`
`the torque at each engine speed, that would vary it by
`
`engine speed, and if you chose to increase the
`
`percentage over the range of engine speed or decrease
`
`it, these are two other ways I could think that it may
`
`be varied.
`
` Q Start with the last example you just gave.
`
`You said one could choose to increase the percentage
`
`over the range of engine speeds. Can you please
`
`elaborate how that would look?
`
` A Just on the graph?
`
` Q Sure.
`
` A It would be just a straight line but a
`
`sloped line.
`
` Q So it's your opinion that with respect to a
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`April 30, 2015April 30, 2015
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`varying setpoint it would be a slope line?
`
` MR. LIVEDALEN: Objection. Vague.
`
`Mischaracterizes previous testimony.
`
` A I was speaking in the way that a person
`
`skilled in the art might vary it. So that was just
`
`giving you examples of how somebody might choose to
`
`vary it.
`
` Q Would a person of ordinary skill in the art
`
`understand that it wouldn't have to be a sloped line?
`
` A I think that's possible also, yes.
`
` Q So would a person of ordinary skill in the
`
`art understand that it could be a parabolic line?
`
` MR. LIVEDALEN: Same objections.
`
` A I think what someone of skill in the art
`
`would do when applying this patent when they're
`
`calibrating the vehicle they would vary the setpoint
`
`to determine either for the optimal efficiency or
`
`possibly good drivability and see how those different
`
`setpoints might affect the vehicle and then make
`
`decisions based on what those might be.
`
` Q So a person of ordinary skill in the art
`
`performing those calibrations determined that a
`
`parabolic line gave them the best efficiency, would
`
`that meet the scope of the claims?
`
` MR. LIVEDALEN: Same objections.
`
`FORD 1243
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`NEIL HANNEMANNNEIL HANNEMANN
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`April 30, 2015April 30, 2015
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` A You know, if they, if they decided that's
`
`the character they wanted and I guess it would have to
`
`comply with the rest of the, the claims. If it were
`
`less than 30 percent, and then it's a little vague, at
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`least approximately 30 percent. If it's 29 percent,
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`still approximately 30 percent, some people might say
`
`yes. So, so unless it was outside of that range I
`
`would say it would still comply with the claims.
`
` Q Do all the claims require that the setpoint
`
`be 30 percent or approximately 30 percent?
`
` A No.
`
` Q Looking back at -- so let's look back at
`
`paragraph 124. You have another graph illustrated
`
`there; correct?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q Again, what does the y-axis represent in
`
`this graph?
`
` A Well, y-axis is torque.
`
` Q Engine torque?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q What does the x-axis represent?
`
` A Engine speed.
`
` Q And again you have an area shaded in red and
`
`an area shaded in green. What does the area shaded in
`
`green represent?
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`NEIL HANNEMANNNEIL HANNEMANN
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`April 30, 2015April 30, 2015
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`Page 22Page 22
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` A It is an area where, you know, operating the
`
`engine above a certain power level is that becomes in
`
`the area where the engine would operate.
`
` Q That's the area where the engine operates to
`
`propel the vehicle?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q And what does the area shaded in red
`
`represent?
`
` A That's where the engine is not in operation
`
`or not in normal operation to propel the vehicle.
`
` Q What is the black dotted line you have
`
`labeled as 20 kilowatts on the graph in 124?
`
` A That's a line of constant power.
`
` Q And what is that used to represent?
`
` A That's used to represent the Tabata
`
`strategy.
`
` Q Does this figure illustrate a control
`
`strategy that compares road load to a setpoint?
`
` MR. LIVEDALEN: Objection. Vague. Calls
`
`for a legal conclusion.
`
` A This compares, is comparing engine power to
`
`a power setpoint.
`
` Q But the y-axis is labeled engine torque; is
`
`that correct?
`
` A Yes.
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`April 30, 2015April 30, 2015
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`Page 23Page 23
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` Q The x-axis is engine speed?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q So in the area shaded red those are engine
`
`torques at a specific engine speed; is that correct?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q And looking at the graph in paragraph 126
`
`likewise the area shaded red are engine torques and
`
`certain engine speeds; is that correct?
`
` A Yeah. The whole graph's torque versus
`
`speed.
`
` Q So with respect to the graph shown in 126,
`
`is that an illustration of control strategy that
`
`compares a road load to a set point?
`
` MR. LIVEDALEN: Objection. Vague. Calls
`
`for legal conclusion.
`
` A It's a graph that compares the Tabata
`
`setpoint -- or excuse me -- Tabata strategy to the
`
`patent strategy, and they're drawn in the same graphs
`
`to demonstrate the differences.
`
` Q I realize that. We're -- I'm talking
`
`specifically about 126. Let's put 124 back to the
`
`side. I'm sorry. Put 124 to the side. I just want
`
`to focus on 126, and I just want to know, you said
`
`that this is the claim control strategy of the '347
`
`earlier; is that correct?
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` MR. LIVEDALEN: Objection. Vague.
`
`Mischaracterizes previous testimony.
`
` A Yeah. It's one example.
`
` Q Example. So is this an example of control
`
`strategy where road load's compared to a setpoint?
`
` MR. LIVEDALEN: Objection. Vague. Calls
`
`for legal conclusion.
`
` A In this example, yes, there is a comparison
`
`of road load to a torque setpoint.
`
` Q And is the road load the engine torque?
`
` MR. LIVEDALEN: Objection. Vague. Calls
`
`for legal conclusion.
`
` A No. The road load is the Ford construction
`
`instantaneous torque required to propel the vehicle.
`
` Q So with respect to paragraph 124 in the red
`
`shaded area why do you say that that is power and then
`
`for paragraph 126 you say that's torque?
`
` A Well, the point I'm illustrating here is if
`
`power is used as the setpoint that, for example, if
`
`you're at a certain speed where the engine speed would
`
`be 3,000 RPM, you would be, you would be at 60 Newton
`
`meters to propel the vehicle, and that would all come
`
`from the electric motor; whereas in the strategy
`
`outlined, example outlined in 126, the same example,
`
`the engine would have been operated. So each of these
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`strategies has a different, at a different point will
`
`operate the engine.
`
` Q So with respect to paragraph 126, at 2,000
`
`RPMs the setpoint is 35 Newton meters; is that
`
`correct?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q And that 35 Newton meters represents an
`
`engine setpoint of 35 Newton meters; is that correct?
`
` A Well, that's their load at 35 Newton meters.
`
` Q Now, with respect to paragraph 124 and
`
`engine speed of say 5,017, doesn't that correlate to
`
`an engine torque of 114 Newton meters?
`
` A Yes, it does.
`
` Q And the torque levels above that 114 Newton
`
`meters the engine is operating; is that correct?
`
` MR. LIVEDALEN: Objection. Vague.
`
` A Yeah. I mean if the engine's creating
`
`torque output, then it's operating.
`
` Q So again at 5,017 RPM you have a torque
`
`value of 114 Newton meters; is that correct?
`
` A That's the -- yeah, according to the graph
`
`of the Caraceni engine that's the maximum torque
`
`output at wide open throttle at that RPM.
`
` Q And that's a point along the dotted line you
`
`have labeled as 20 kilowatts; is that correct?
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` A I don't think -- you're saying the 20
`
`kilowatt line intersects that point?
`
` Q I'm sorry. Paragraph 123, is this the --
`
`what does the chart in paragraph 123 represent?
`
` A That represents the maximum torque output of
`
`the Caraceni engine.
`
` Q Okay. So that's the blue line in paragraph
`
`124?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q Okay. Would any point along the dotted line
`
`you've labeled as 20 kilowatt represent a boundary
`
`between where the motor is used to propel the vehicle
`
`and where the engine is used to propel the vehicle?
`
` MR. LIVEDALEN: Objection. Vague.
`
` A With the -- yes, with the Tabata strategy.
`
` Q So with respect to the graph shown in 124,
`
`is that the control strategy disclosed by the '347
`
`patent?
`
` A No, it's not.
`
` Q In your opinion what's the difference
`
`between a torque setpoint and a power threshold?
`
` A Well, torque and power are completely
`
`different things, and it may be the -- when you look
`
`at these two graphs, you can see that, for example, in
`
`the Tabata strategy graph you may encounter situations
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`where you need over 80 meters of torque from the
`
`electric motor, whereas in the patent strategy 35
`
`Newton meters would be the maximum you require. So
`
`each of these strategies would lead you to a different
`
`size electric motor. So it would affect the design of
`
`the vehicle.
`
` Q Would a person of skill in the art ever
`
`consider a power threshold to be a torque setpoint?
`
` MR. LIVEDALEN: Objection. Vague. Calls
`
`for a legal conclusion.
`
` A No.
`
` Q At a value of 60 with respect to paragraph
`
`124, at a torque value of 60 Newton meters and engine
`
`speed of 2,000 RPM, would that be understood as the
`
`torque required to propel the vehicle using the motor?
`
` MR. LIVEDALEN: Objection. Vague.
`
` A Yeah. That's an area where the motor alone
`
`would be used.
`
` Q Right. I realize that's the area where the
`
`motor alone would be used, but would that be the
`
`torque at a given engine speed where -- strike that.
`
`Is the 60 Newton meters the torque that the engine
`
`must provide to propel the vehicle?
`
` MR. LIVEDALEN: Objection. Vague.
`
` A Well, at some point the engine may provide
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`60 Newton meters and at some, some points it may be
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`the electric motor that's providing 60 Newton meters.
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` Q Okay. So at 60 Newton meters and engine
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`speed of 2,000 RPM who is, what power source is
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`producing the 60 Newton Meters which would propel the
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`vehicle?
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` MR. LIVEDALEN: Objection. Vague.
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` A Using