EXHIBIT 2004
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`EXHIBIT 2004
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`EXHIBIT 2004
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`Page 1
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` IN THE UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`________________________________
`TAIWAN SEMICONDUCTOR
`MANUFACTURING COMPANY, LTD.
`AND TSMC NORTH AMERICA CORP., Case Nos.
` IPR2014-00828
` Petitioners, IPR2014-00856
` IPR2014-01070
`-vs- IPR2014-01022
`ZOND, LLC,
` Patent Owner.
`________________________________
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION of DR. UWE KORTSHAGEN
` Minneapolis, Minnesota
` January 16th, 2015
`
`Reported by:
`Amy L. Larson, RPR
`Job No. 89385
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`
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`Page 2
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`APPEARANCES:
` RADULESCU
` 350 Fifth Avenue
` New York, NY 10118
` By: Tigran Vardanian, Esq.
` For: Zond, LLC
` DUANE MORRIS
` 100 High Street
` Boston, Massachusetts 02110
` By: Anthony Fitzpatrick, Esq.
` For: Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing
` Company Limited and
` TSMC North America
` HAYNES AND BOONE
` 2323 Victory Avenue
` Dallas, Texas 75219
` By: David McCombs, Esq.
` For: Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing
` Company Limited and
` TSMC North America
` HAYNES AND BOONE
` 2505 N. Plano Road
` Richardson, Texas 75082
` By: Gregory Huh, Esq.
` For: Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing
` Company Limited and
` TSMC North America
` WHITE & CASE
` 701 Thirteenth Street N.W.
` Washington, D.C. 20005
` By: David Tennant, Esq.
` For: Global Foundries
`
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`APPEARANCES: (CONT'D.)
` WHITE & CASE
` 3000 El Camino Real
` 5 Palo Alto Square
` Palo Alto, California 94306
` By: Brett Rismiller, Esq.
` For: Global Foundries
`
` FOLEY & LARDNER
` Washington Harbour
` 3000 K Street, N.W.
` Washington, D.C. 20007
` By: John J. Feldhaus, Esq. (via telephone)
`
` BAKER BOTTS
` One Shell Plaza
` 910 Louisiana Street
` Houston, Texas 77002
` By: Robinson Vu, Esq. (via telephone)
` For: Toshiba
`
` ALSO PRESENT: Dean Hibben, Videographer
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`INDEX:
`EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
`Mr. Vardanian...............................7
`PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS:
`Exhibit Intel 1002
`Declaration of Uwe Kortshagen, Ph.D.
`regarding Claims 1-4, 10-15, 17-18, 24-27,
`and 29 of U.S. Patent No. 6,805,779
`Exhibit Intel 1102
`Declaration of Uwe Kortshagen, Ph.D.
`regarding Claims 5, 6, 8, 19, 22, 23, and 43
`of U.S. Patent No. 6,805,779
`Exhibit TSMC 1201
`U.S. Patent No. 6,805,779 B2
`Exhibit TSMC 1202
`Declaration of Uwe Kortshagen, Ph.D.
`regarding Claims 30-40 of
`U.S. Patent No. 6,805,779
`Exhibit TSMC 1207
`U.S. Patent No. 5,753,886
`Exhibit TSMC 1214
`International Application Published
`Under the Patent Cooperation Treaty
`Publication No. WO 83/01349
`Publication Date 14 April 1983
`Exhibit TSMC 1302
`Declaration of Uwe Kortshagen, Ph.D.
`regarding Claims 16, 28, 41, 42, 45 and 46
`of U.S. Patent No. 6,805,779
`Exhibit TSMC 1402
`Declaration of Uwe Kortshagen, Ph.D.
`regarding Claims 7, 9, 20, 21, 38 and 44
`of U.S. Patent No. 6,805,779
`Exhibit TSMC 1413
`European Patent Application
`No. 84850295.1
`Date of filing 4/10/84
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` DR. UWE KORTSHAGEN
`THE VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF DR. UWE KORTSHAGEN,
`taken on this 16th day of January, 2015,
`The Commons Hotel, 615 Washington Avenue, S.E.,
`Minneapolis, Minnesota, commencing at
`approximately 8:51 a.m.
`
` P R O C E E D I N G S
`
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is
` video number 1 in the deposition of
` Dr. Uwe Kortshagen in the matter of
` Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company,
` Ltd., et al. vs. Zond, LLC, in the United
` States Patent and Trademark Office before the
` Patent Trial and Appeal Board, cases number
` IPR2014-00828, IPR2014-00856, IPR2014-01070
` and IPR2014-01022.
` This deposition is being held at
` The Commons Hotel in Minneapolis, Minnesota,
` on January 16th, 2015, at approximately
` 8:51 a.m. My name is Dean Hibben, I'm the
` legal video specialist from TSG Reporting,
` Incorporated headquartered at 747 Third
` Avenue, New York, New York. The court
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` DR. UWE KORTSHAGEN
`reporter is Amy Larson in association with
`TSG Reporting.
` Will counsel please introduce yourselves.
` MR. VARDANIAN: Tigran Vardanian
`with Radulescu, LLC, on behalf of patent
`owner Zond, LLC.
` MR. FITZPATRICK: Anthony
`Fitzpatrick from Duane, Morris, LLP, on
`behalf of petitioners Taiwan Semiconductor
`Manufacturing Company Limited and TSMC North
`America.
` MR. TENNANT: David Tennant of
`White & Case on behalf of Global Foundries
`U.S. Inc., Global Foundries Dresden Module
`One LLC & Co. KG, Global Foundries Dresden
`Module Two LLC & Co. KG.
` MR. MCCOMBS: David McCombs with
`Haynes & Boone on behalf TSMC, TSMC North
`America and Fujitsu.
` MR. HUH: Gregory Huh on behalf of
`TSMC, TSMC North America and Fujitsu.
` MR. RISMILLER: Brett Rismiller
`with White & Case on behalf of Global
`Foundries U.S. Inc., Global Foundries Dresden
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` DR. UWE KORTSHAGEN
`Module One, LLC & Co. KG and Global Foundries
`Dresden Module, Two LLC & Co. KG.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: And those on
`the phone, please.
` MR. FELDHAUS: John Feldhaus of
`Foley & Lardner for petitioners Renaissance
`Electronics Corporation and Renaissance
`Electronics America, Inc.
` MR. VU: Robinson Vu with
`Baker, Botts for Toshiba.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: And would the
`court reporter please swear in the witness.
`
` DR. UWE KORTSHAGEN,
` a witness in the above-entitled action,
` after having been first duly sworn,
` was deposed and says as follows:
`
` MR. FITZPATRICK: Before we begin,
`I'll just note for the record that all
`objections will apply to all petitioners so
`that we can avoid the need for repetition in
`objections.
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` DR. UWE KORTSHAGEN
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. VARDANIAN:
`Q. Good morning, Dr. Kortshagen.
`A. Good morning, Mr. Vardanian.
`Q. So I'm going to go over just a few quick
` details. I know you've gone through this
` experience several times.
`A. Yes.
`Q. But do you understand that you've taken an
` oath to testify truthfully today?
`A. I do understand.
`Q. And you will testify truthfully today, yes?
`A. I will.
`Q. You understand that I'm going to ask you
` questions?
`A. Yes.
`Q. And that you have an obligation to answer my
` questions?
`A. I understand.
`Q. And that even if your counsel objects to my
` questions, you still have to answer them. Do
` you understand that?
`A. I understand.
`Q. And one exception to that is if your counsel
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` DR. UWE KORTSHAGEN
` is instructing you to not -- not respond
` under claim of privilege or attorney/client
` privilege or work product. Do you understand
` that?
`A. I understand. Thank you.
`Q. If you don't understand a question or you
` would like me to rephrase, please ask me to
` do so and I will do so; is that fair?
`A. I will do that, yes.
`Q. If I ask you a question and you answer it,
` I'm going to assume that you understood it;
` is that fair?
`A. That is fair, yes.
`Q. Are you taking any medication that would
` impair your ability to testify truthfully
` today, sir?
`A. I'm suffering a little bit from a cold, I
` have taken some aspirin. I don't think that
` this impairs my ability to testify.
`Q. Okay. So today we are not going to talk
` about Wang and Mozgrin, how great is that?
`A. That is relief.
`Q. So we're going to talk about Iwamura as one
` of the things we're going to talk about, and
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` DR. UWE KORTSHAGEN
` I'm going to pass to you what has been marked
` as Exhibit TSMC 1207. So you've seen this
` document before, correct?
`A. I have, yes.
`Q. This is the Iwamura patent on which you
` provided some opinions in the -- in your
` declaration in support of the petitioners, I
` guess, petitions?
`A. That is correct.
`Q. Okay. So before we get into the substance of
` the patent, can you tell me what do you
` understand metastable atoms to be?
`A. Metastable atoms are a kind of excited atoms
` and metastable atoms have a -- compared to
` other excited atoms, a long lifetime because
` they are not allowed to transition to the
` ground state of the atoms through dipole
` radiation.
`Q. So you've mentioned a couple of terms, I'd
` like to clarify them as well. You mentioned
` ground state atoms.
`A. Yes.
`Q. What do you understand those to be?
`A. Ground state atoms is the state of atoms at
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` DR. UWE KORTSHAGEN
` which the electrons in those atoms occupy
` their lowest energy state.
`Q. So you can't -- an atom cannot have an energy
` state lower than the ground state; is that
` fair?
`A. I think that is fair, yes.
`Q. And you also mentioned excited atoms as -- it
` seemed like as a broader category. So is it
` fair to say that not all excited atoms are
` metastable atoms?
` MR. TENNANT: Object to the form.
` THE WITNESS: That is fair to say,
` that not all excited atoms are metastable,
` that is correct, yes.
`BY MR. VARDANIAN:
`Q. So let's take a look at the Exhibit TSMC
` 1207. I'll just refer to it as Iwamura
` patent going forward.
` So let's take a look at the abstract on
` the front page. So in the first sentence --
` in the second sentence of the abstract, do
` you see where it says, "In a gas introduction
` passage, the gas capable of plasma discharge
` is preexcited to raise its level of
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` DR. UWE KORTSHAGEN
` excitation"?
`A. Yes, I do see that.
`Q. And then the next sentence states, "A first
` pair of plasma generation electrodes
` downstream along the gas flow passage use the
` preexcited gas to generate the plasma in the
` first plasma generation position."
` Do you see that?
`A. I do.
`Q. So let's turn to Figure 1 of this patent.
`A. (Complies.)
`Q. And so the way I understood your declaration
` and your interpretation of the patent, the
` Iwamura patent is you are saying there's a --
` a pre -- preexcitement area in Figure -- you
` know, depicted in Figure 1, that's probably
` the most upstream of the -- of the areas that
` you identify in the declaration; is that
` fair?
` MR. FITZPATRICK: Object to the
` form.
`BY MR. VARDANIAN:
`Q. Let me withdraw. Let me -- that may have
` been confusing.
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` DR. UWE KORTSHAGEN
` If I understood your declaration
` correctly, you generally point to three areas
` in Figure 1: One is the preexcitation area,
` the other one is the first plasma generation
` area, and the third is the second plasma
` generation area; is that fair?
` MR. FITZPATRICK: Object to the
` form.
` THE WITNESS: So I have to admit
` that in preparing for this deposition, I
` reviewed a lot of documents, and that at this
` point in order to answer your question
` accurately, if you have a question concerning
` my declaration and how specifically I -- I
` named the area that includes the window 22
` and the UV source 24, whether I caught that
` preexcitation unit or something else, it
` would be very helpful for me to actually look
` at my declaration.
`BY MR. VARDANIAN:
`Q. And we'll get there.
`A. Okay.
`Q. You mentioned that you reviewed a lot of
` documents.
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` DR. UWE KORTSHAGEN
`A. Yes.
`Q. What documents did you review in preparation
` for this deposition?
`A. Well, I did review my declarations. I did
` review the board decisions. I did review, I
` think, to a certain degree, all the exhibits
` of this particular patent, in particular
` Iwamura, the Angelbeck, Pinsley patent, yes,
` and several more.
`Q. Let me give you one of your declarations so
` that it helps move this along. I'll pass to
` you what has been previously marked as
` Exhibit TSMC 1202.
`A. Uh-huh.
`Q. That's one of your declarations in connection
` with the -- with the '779 patent, correct?
`A. That is correct, yes.
`Q. And when I'm referring to '779 patent, the
` full number for that patent is 68,085,779; is
` that correct?
`A. Yes, this is what it says on my declaration,
` yes.
`Q. Okay. So let's -- let's turn to page 45 and
` see if that refreshes your recollection, so
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` DR. UWE KORTSHAGEN
` --
`A. Thank you.
`Q. For page 45, do you see the last sentence --
` the last full sentence on the page states,
` "Iwamura's device includes a preexcitation
` unit"? Do you see that?
`A. Page 45 --
`Q. 48.
`A. Oh, 48.
`Q. I misspoke, sorry.
`A. Sorry. 45. Yes, you're right.
`Q. Tony knows that I have trouble reading back
` numbers.
`A. Uh-huh.
`Q. So the top-most area, you're calling
` preexcitation unit in your declaration,
` correct?
`A. Yes.
`Q. And then the area 26 on -- on Figure --
` Figure 1, what do you call that?
`A. (Reviews document.)
`Q. Let me see if I can help you. Oh, go ahead,
` sorry.
`A. Yes, so in paragraph 113 of my declaration,
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` DR. UWE KORTSHAGEN
` we're adopting the term which Iwamura has
` actually used, the first plasma generation
` unit.
`Q. Great.
`A. So I call it the first plasma generation
` unit.
`Q. Okay. And there is a second plasma
` generation unit depicted on Figure 1,
` correct?
`A. That's correct, yes.
`Q. And what is that element on Figure 1 of the
` Iwamura patent?
`A. Second plasma generation unit would consist
` out of -- the unit which is labeled with the
` letter B, and it's -- includes a power supply
` 34 and two electrodes which are labeled with
` 30.
`Q. So the second -- the second plasma generation
` unit is inside the treatment chamber, is that
` correct, treatment chamber number 10?
` MR. FITZPATRICK: Object to form.
` THE WITNESS: Yes, I believe it is
` called the treatment chamber number 10, yes.
`BY MR. VARDANIAN:
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` DR. UWE KORTSHAGEN
`Q. So in terms of positions, is it fair to say
` that the preexcitation unit that's, you know,
` most upstream, next down stream comes the
` first plasma generation unit and then the
` most down stream area is the second plasma
` generation unit; is that fair?
`A. I think if you are -- if you are using the
` words "upstream" and "downstream," you are
` already recognizing that there is a gas flow,
` which is shown on Figure 1, a gas entering at
` position 20 and leaving the reactor at
` position 12, and so according to this gas
` flow and the gas passing through the unit
` from the top to the bottom, it would be
` correct to say that the most upstream element
` is the preexcitation unit followed by the
` first plasma generation unit followed by the
` second plasma generation unit.
`Q. Is it your understanding that the gas in the
` Iwamura device is supposed to flow without
` interruption?
` MR. FITZPATRICK: Object to form.
` THE WITNESS: It's my
` understanding that it would be very desirable
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` DR. UWE KORTSHAGEN
` to have this gas flow because Iwamura's
` device relies on the gas flow for
` transporting the excited species through the
` reactor.
`BY MR. VARDANIAN:
`Q. You mentioned excited species. What were
` referring to?
`A. With excited species, I would refer to either
` atoms or molecules of the treatment gas.
` Excuse me, I should correct that. I
` should say if I say excited species, I'm
` actually referring to the excited atoms or
` the excited molecules within a treatment gas.
`Q. And you're referring to a treatment gas.
` What kind of treatment gases does Iwamura
` disclose?
`A. So without going to my declaration and/or
` reading the entire patent, I do remember
` three: mainly helium, argon, and oxygen.
`Q. Does Iwamura distinguish between treatment
` gases and other types of gases that are to be
` used in its device?
` MR. FITZPATRICK: Object to the
` form.
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` DR. UWE KORTSHAGEN
` THE WITNESS: I right now do not
` know this. I'm also not a hundred percent
` sure that Iwamura actually uses the term
` "treatment gas," so maybe that is a term
` which I just used, and I'm not sure if
` Iwamura uses the exact same term.
`BY MR. VARDANIAN:
`Q. Is it your opinion that the Iwamura is
` disclosing argon as a treatment gas?
` MR. FITZPATRICK: Object to the
` form of the question.
` THE WITNESS: Well -- well, at
` this point, I am not certain whether Iwamura
` labels argon as a treatment gas.
`BY MR. VARDANIAN:
`Q. You also mentioned helium. Does Iwamura
` disclose helium as a treatment gas, in your
` opinion?
` MR. FITZPATRICK: Object to the
` form of the question.
` THE WITNESS: Well, maybe we -- so
` I do think that I need to take a moment to
` try to identify the mention of helium and
` argon in the patent to read exact language.
`
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` DR. UWE KORTSHAGEN
` If you have it in front of you --
`BY MR. VARDANIAN:
`Q. Let me see if I can point you to a disclosure
` that I'm looking at and maybe that will help
` move this along.
` If you go to column 8 of the Iwamura
` patent, do you see the paragraph that starts
` at line 10?
`A. I do.
`Q. And the first sentence states, "In this way,
` the plasma state is maintained in plasma
` regions A and B, and then a treatment gas is
` added to the helium gas supplied through gas
` supply 20."
` Do you see that?
`A. I do, yes.
`Q. And just -- just so we're on the same page
` the regions -- the plasma regions A and B
` that's -- that are referred to in this
` sentence are respectively the same -- the
` same first plasma generation unit and second
` plasma generation unit we were talking about
` before, correct?
`A. Yes.
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` DR. UWE KORTSHAGEN
`Q. And you can see here that Iwamura actually
` does use the term "treatment gas." Do you
` see that?
`A. Yes, correct.
`Q. And he is actually distinguishing treatment
` gas from helium gas, doesn't he, in this
` sentence?
` MR. FITZPATRICK: Object to the
` form of the question.
` THE WITNESS: Yes, I think this is
` how I would read the sentence, yes.
`BY MR. VARDANIAN:
`Q. And he was generally using the term "helium"
` as one type of noble gases that could be
` contemplated in the patent, correct?
` MR. FITZPATRICK: Object to the
` form of the question.
`BY MR. VARDANIAN:
`Q. Let me rephrase that, because, actually, I'm
` not sure whether Iwamura is a he or a she.
` Let me refer to it as "it" or as a
` "patent." So does the Iwamura patent -- I
` guess let me with -- strike that.
` What I'm trying to get at is in
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` DR. UWE KORTSHAGEN
` discussing helium in this particular sentence
` but earlier in the patent he is using helium
` and argon as interchangeable examples as the
` kind of gas that you preexcite and then --
` and then -- and then generate plasmas from;
` is that fair?
` MR. FITZPATRICK: Object to the
` form of the question.
` THE WITNESS: Could you be so kind
` to point me in the patent to where he talks
` about helium and argon.
`BY MR. VARDANIAN:
`Q. So before I do and I will -- as I'm looking
` for it, you -- you've read the Iwamura patent
` carefully, right?
`A. I did read it, yes.
`Q. You've read it carefully, right?
` MR. FITZPATRICK: Object to the
` form of the question.
` THE WITNESS: I really believe it
` depends on your definition of what you mean
` with "carefully."
`BY MR. VARDANIAN:
`Q. Okay. Fair enough.
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` DR. UWE KORTSHAGEN
` Do you have an understanding of what
` "reading carefully" means in your view?
` MR. FITZPATRICK: Object to the
` form of the question.
` THE WITNESS: I do believe that I
` did read the patent as carefully as was -- I
` was able to with the amount of time I was
` able to devote to this.
`BY MR. VARDANIAN:
`Q. How much time did you devote to this?
`A. To the preparation for this deposition
` overall?
`Q. Well, you said "this." What were you
` referring to?
`A. I was referring to the preparation for this
` deposition.
`Q. Right. So how much time did you spend
` preparing for this deposition?
`A. I believe maybe a total of 12 to 15 hours.
`Q. So let's take a look at column 7, we're
` actually not --
`A. Column 7.
`Q. -- not very far.
` Before we do that, one last question:
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` DR. UWE KORTSHAGEN
` You understood everything that was described
` in the Iwamura patent, right?
` MR. TENNANT: Objection to form.
` THE WITNESS: In general, when you
` read technical papers, it's very difficult to
` know whether you really understood
` everything, so I cannot right now point you
` to any particular item which I know that I
` did not understand, but I also cannot put on
` the record that I am certain that I
` understood everything.
`BY MR. VARDANIAN:
`Q. That's how I feel about reading scientific
` papers too, but you're the expert here, so as
` an expert here, sitting here today you can't
` tell me that you understood the Iwamura
` patent completely?
` MR. FITZPATRICK: Object to the
` form of the question, asked and answered.
`BY MR. VARDANIAN:
`Q. Let me rephrase. Can you tell me, as an
` expert sitting here today, that you
` understood completely the Iwamura patent?
` MR. FITZPATRICK: Object to the
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` DR. UWE KORTSHAGEN
` form of the question, asked and answered.
` THE WITNESS: I believe that I
` understood the essential elements of the
` Iwamura patent.
`BY MR. VARDANIAN:
`Q. Let's take a look at -- at column 7, line 47,
` I think, the -- the --
`A. Uh-huh.
`Q. Actually, it's probably line 48. Do you see
` the sentence --
`A. I do.
`Q. -- that starts with, "First, an inert gas
` such as helium or argon is introduced to gas
` supply 20 to replace the air in treatment
` chamber 10"? Do you see that?
`A. I do see that. Thank you.
`Q. So going back to my earlier question when I
` was saying that Iwamura is using helium gas
` as interchangeable examples of inert gas, is
` that -- do you agree with that statement?
`A. Yes, this is what this particular sentence
` seems to imply, yes.
`Q. Okay. So let's -- let's go back to the
` sentence in column 8, line 10. We already
`
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` DR. UWE KORTSHAGEN
` established that Iwamura distinguishes helium
` from treatment gas.
` Do you agree with me that, you know,
` based on the disclosures that I showed you in
` column 7, Iwamura also distinguishes argon
` gas from treatment gas?
` MR. FITZPATRICK: Object to the
` form of the question.
` THE WITNESS: So in column 7,
` Iwamura lists helium and argon as examples
` for an inert gas, and in column 8, Iwamura,
` at least this place, makes a distinction
` between a treatment gas and helium that is
` used.
` So I'm not sure that from that -- first
` of all, this sentence is -- does not talk
` about argon, so I don't want to put words
` into Iwamura's mouth which are not here, and
` so I'm not sure that you can just from these
` two quotes conclude that argon would not be
` used as a treatment gas.
`BY MR. VARDANIAN:
`Q. So sitting here today, as an expert viewing
` this disclosure, you can't tell me that it
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` DR. UWE KORTSHAGEN
` can be inferred from the -- from this
` passage, that argon gas would be
` distinguished from treatment gas in Iwamura's
` patent?
` MR. FITZPATRICK: Object to the
` form of the question.
` THE WITNESS: I really believe
` that the distinction between what is a
` treatment gas and what is an inert gas very
` much depends on the application that you have
` in mind, and I do not recall that Iwamura is
` specifically targeted at one application, but
` rather a disclosure, but that Iwamura rather
` is a disclosure of a plasma apparatus, a
` plasma generation apparatus and a method, and
` as such, I am not sure that the distinction
` between treatment gas and inert gas is
` necessarily that meaningful because it will
` depend on a particular application that you
` have in mind.
`BY MR. VARDANIAN:
`Q. All right. So you'll agree with me -- excuse
` me -- that Iwamura does distinguish between
` inert gas and treatment gas; agreed?
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` DR. UWE KORTSHAGEN
` MR. FITZPATRICK: Object to form.
` THE WITNESS: I agree with you
` that right here in this sentence, in column
` 8, line 10, Iwamura distinguishes between the
` treatment gas that is added to helium gas and
` that helium in this particular sentence is
` not labeled as a treatment gas.
`BY MR. VARDANIAN:
`Q. Right. And earlier you testified that you --
` you recall at least three types of gases that
` are disclosed as treatment gases in Iwamura,
` right?
` MR. FITZPATRICK: Object to the
` form of the question.
` THE WITNESS: It is very possible
` that earlier I may have used the term
` "treatment gas" somewhat loosely and without
` at that moment being aware of the specific
` meaning that Iwamura seems to give it in --
` in this particular sentence.
`BY MR. VARDANIAN:
`Q. So terms can be even -- even technical terms
` can be used loosely, correct?
` MR. FITZPATRICK: Object to the
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` DR. UWE KORTSHAGEN
` form of the question.
` THE WITNESS: They certainly
` should not be used loosely.
`BY MR. VARDANIAN:
`Q. But you used them loosely just a few minutes
` ago, right?
` MR. FITZPATRICK: Object to the
` form of the question.
` THE WITNESS: I certainly should
` have been more careful, and I should have
` asked for more time for reading the patent
` before I actually answered your question. I
` will try to avoid not being as accurate as
` possible.
`BY MR. VARDANIAN:
`Q. Earlier today you testified that Iwamura
` discloses helium as a treatment gas, correct?
` MR. FITZPATRICK: Object to the
` form of the question.
` THE WITNESS: So because we have
` now probably gone around helium and its
` labeling as a treatment gas or not being
` labeled as a treatment gas for 20 or 30
` questions, I don't exactly recall what I said
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` DR. UWE KORTSHAGEN
` earlier today, so if you would like me to
` answer your question, maybe then you can read
` me the answer that I've given earlier.
`BY MR. VARDANIAN:
`Q. So my question to you earlier today was:
` What kind of treatment gases does Iwamura
` disclose? And your answer, and I'm reading
` this from the -- from the record was: So
` without going to my declaration or reading
` the entire patent, I do remember three:
` mainly helium, argon, and oxygen.
` That statement was incorrect, right?
` MR. FITZPATRICK: Object to the
` form of the question.
` THE WITNESS: Well, now that I do
` have the patent in front of me and am able to
` look at the language in the patent without
` having to rely on my recollection of a term
` to which I did not pay as much attention
` because I did not feel that it was as
` essential to the patent as you seem to think
` it is, now that I do have the patent in front
` of me, I feel that my earlier statement
` should have been that Iwamura seems to
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` DR. UWE KORTSHAGEN
` distinguish between gases that he calls inert
` gases and he lists argon and helium as an
` example and treatment gases where he lists
` molecular oxygen and also carbon tetra
` fluoride as examples.
`BY MR. VARDANIAN:
`Q. Does he provide any other examples of
` treatment gases in his patent?
` Let me rephrase. Does Iwamura disclose
` any other treatment gases?
`A. I do not recall right now. I'll be happy to
` read the patent to discover whether he does.
`Q. So with your understanding of the Iwamura
` patent, can you explain to me why is this
` reference using different type of gases as
` inert gases and treatment gases?
`A. So I believe that everyone of -- of ordinary
` skill in the art will understand that in the
` area of plasma processing, there are
` different gases used for different
` applications, and that some gases, like inert
` gases, argon and hel
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