IN THE UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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` BEFORE THE PATENT AND TRIAL APPEAL BOARD
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`Page 1
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` GLOBAL TEL LINK CORPORATION,
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` Petitioner, Case: IPR2014-00825
` Patent 7,529,357
` vs.
` Case: IPR2014-00824
` SECURUS TECHNOLOGIES, Patent 8,340,260
` INCORPORATED,
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` Patent Owner.
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` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF LEONARD FORYS, Ph.D.
`
` Washington, D.C.
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` Thursday, May 7, 2015
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`Reported by:
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`Randi J. Garcia
`
`Job no: 14074
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`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
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` BEFORE THE PATENT AND TRIAL APPEAL BOARD
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`Page 1
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` - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x
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` GLOBAL TEL LINK CORPORATION,
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` Petitioner, Case: IPR2014-00825
` Patent 7,529,357
` vs.
` Case: IPR2014-00824
` SECURUS TECHNOLOGIES, Patent 8,340,260
` INCORPORATED,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
` - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x
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` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF LEONARD FORYS, Ph.D.
`
` Washington, D.C.
`
` Thursday, May 7, 2015
`
`Reported by:
`
`Randi J. Garcia
`
`Job no: 14074
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
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`
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`Page 2
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` Videotaped Deposition of LEONARD FORYS, Ph.D,
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` at Sterne, Kessler Goldstein & Fox, 1100 New York
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` Avenue, N.W, Washington, before Randi J. Garcia,
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` Registered Professional Reporter, and Notary Public
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` in and for the District of Columbia at or about 9:09
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` a.m.
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`Page 3
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` APPEARANCES
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` ON BEHALF OF PETITIONER GLOBAL TEL LINK:
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` STERNE KESSLER GOLDSTEIN & FOX
`
` 1100 New York Avenue, N.W., Suite 600
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` Washington, D.C. 20005
`
` (202) 371-2600
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` By: RYAN RICHARDSON, ESQ.
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` rrichardson@skgf.com
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` ON BEHALF OF PATENT OWNER SECURUS TECHNOLOGIES:
`
` BRAGALONE CONROY PC
`
` Chase Tower
`
` 2200 Ross Avenue
`
` Suite 4500 W
`
` Dallas, Texas 75201-7924
`
` 214.785.6670
`
` BY: TERRY A, SAAD, ESQ.
`
` tsaad@bcpc-law.com
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`
`
`
`
` ALSO PRESENT:
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` Max Wagonblast, VIDEO OPERATOR
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` EXAMINATION INDEX
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` PAGE
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` EXAMINATION BY MR. SAAD 6
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`Page 4
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` EXHIBITS
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` EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION PAGE
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` Exhibit 1 - Spadaro reference 9
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` Exhibit 2 - '167 patent 47
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` Exhibit 3 - Hodge reference 102
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` Previously marked exhibits attached.
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`Page 5
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is disk number 1
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` of the video deposition of Dr. Leonard Forys,
`
` Ph.D, in the matter of Global Tel Link Corp
`
` versus Securus Technologies, Inc, in the Patent
`
` Trial and Appeal Board. Case Numbers IPR
`
` 2014-00824 and IPR 2014-00825.
`
` This deposition is being held at 1100
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` New York Avenue, Northwest, Washington, D.C.
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` on May 7, 2015 at approximately 9:09.
`
` My name is Max Wagonblast from the firm
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` of TransPerfect Legal Solutions, and I am the
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` legal video specialist.
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` The court reporter is Randi Garcia in
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` association with TransPerfect Legal
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` Solutions.
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` Will counsel introduce themselves.
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` MR. SAAD: Terry Saad from Bragalone
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` Conroy, for the patent owner.
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` MR. RICHARDSON: Ryan Richardson from
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` Sterne Kessler Goldstein Fox representing
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` petitioner.
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court reporter
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` please swear in the witness.
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` Thereupon:
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` LEONARD FORYS, Ph.D
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` after having been first duly sworn, was examined and
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`Page 6
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` testified as follows:
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` DIRECT EXAMINATION
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` BY MR. SAAD:
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` Q Good morning, Dr. Forys.
`
` A Morning.
`
` Q Do you understand why you're here today?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q What is that understanding?
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` A Here to be deposed on the second
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` declaration I submitted a couple weeks back in
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` this matter.
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` Q Do you understand that we are here for
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` two separate matters today?
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` A Yes, but they are very closely related.
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` Q And the first matter regards the -- what
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` is known as '260 patent. Do you understand
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` that?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q And the second matter regards what is
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` known as the '357 patent. Do you understand
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` that?
`
` A Yes.
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` Q Okay. Do you understand that you're
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` testifying under oath today?
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` A Yes.
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` Q Is there any reason that you cannot
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` testify truthfully and accurately today?
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` A No. There is no reason.
`
` Q Are you under any drugs or medication
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` that would affect your testimony?
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` A I don't take any drugs or medication.
`
` Q Do you understand that our conversation
`
` is being transcribed by the court reporter?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q How many hours, approximately, have you
`
` worked on these two matters?
`
` A It is hard to say, because they are
`
` related to other patents, and so I spent time,
`
` for example, on Spadaro patent and several other
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` IPRs, as well as the other prior arts as well.
`
` So it's -- it would be a difficult thing
`
` to guess. I would say 40, 50 just on this
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` matter. But it is larger than that. So it's
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` very hard to say. I don't -- I don't itemized
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` my invoices by case. I just do it by month.
`
` Q So you don't keep track of your time
`
` based on the matter that you're working on?
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` A I do. But I do it on a per day basis
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` and I just put the thing -- sometimes in a day I
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` will split it between two things. I do it on a
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` day. But I don't sum it up by -- I don't
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` have -- I don't have a running total by case. I
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` have a running total by month. It is itemized,
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` though, each day and each case. I just don't
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` sum it up.
`
` Q When you said that this case is related
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` to other patents, what patents were you
`
` referring to?
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` A Like the '167 patent, for example.
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` There is another one. I don't remember the
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` numbers, but that was a parent to this patent.
`
` Q What did you do to prepare for this
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` deposition, Dr. Forys?
`
` A I read my second declaration. I
`
` reviewed Dr. Akl's declaration as well. I
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` reviewed the patent owner's rebuttal
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` declaration. I reviewed the -- all the --
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` essentially the documentation that was current
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` as pertains to this matter.
`
` Q Did you review any documents that are
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` not of record in this matter?
`
` A Not that I recall.
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` Q Did you meet with anyone in preparation
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`Page 9
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` for this deposition?
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` A Yes.
`
` Q Who did you meet with?
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` A I met with Mr. Richardson and briefly
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` with Ms. Gordon, Lori Gordon.
`
` Q Both of the Sterne Kessler firm?
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` A They are both, yes, with the Sterne
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` Kessler firm.
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` Q How long did you meet for?
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` A Couple hours.
`
` Q When was that meeting?
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` A Yesterday afternoon.
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` Q I am going to hand you -- we are going
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` to mark this, because it's not marked.
`
` (Thereupon, Exhibit Number 1 was marked
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` for identification purposes.)
`
` BY MR. SAAD:
`
` Q I am going to hand you what has been
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` marked as Exhibit Number 1.
`
` Do you recognize this as the Spadaro
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` reference?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q For the record, I believe the Spadaro
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` reference is GTL1004 exhibit. But this version
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` is not marked that way.
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` A I believe it is. I don't know. I don't
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` recall.
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` Q Dr. Forys, will you look at that
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` document, the Spadaro reference and please
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` identify for me and read into the record each
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` and every sentence of Spadaro that mentions
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` server 48 explicitly. If you will please
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` provide a citation for where you're reading
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` from.
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` A Yes. Figure 3 lists server 48. It is
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` the top of the figure.
`
` Q Okay.
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` A Column 3, line 55 to 57. That sentence
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` refers to server 48.
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` Q Will you please read that sentence into
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` the record.
`
` A Sure. Sure. "The router 46 routes
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` calls to a server 48 which connects the calls to
`
` central office 34."
`
` Q Okay. Anything else?
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` A Not explicitly. The rest is implicit.
`
` Q Okay. So there's two references in the
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` Spadaro patent to server 48 that you identified,
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` correct?
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` A I believe that is correct.
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` Q And so the rest of your opinions that
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` you have provided regarding that server are
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` based on your opinions as to how one of ordinary
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` skill in the art would understand that server
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` based on only those two citations of Spadaro, is
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` that correct?
`
` A No.
`
` MR. RICHARDSON: Objection to form.
`
` THE WITNESS: No.
`
` BY MR. SAAD:
`
` Q Okay. Can you explain why that is not
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` correct?
`
` A Yes. Because there is a couple
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` paragraphs afterwards that discuss Figure 3 and
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` what the architecture does, and that would
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` relate to 48, explicitly.
`
` Q But none of those paragraphs refer
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` explicitly to server 48, correct?
`
` A No, but they refer explicitly to Figures
`
` 2 and 3, which 48 is prominent in. So the
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` description there would apply to server 48 as
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` well.
`
` Q So for the record, which -- which
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` paragraphs are you referring to?
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` A I am referring to Column 3, Lines 58 to
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` Column 4, Line 3. And then I would refer to
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` Column 4, line 56 through 65, which describes an
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` application, an embodiment.
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` Q Does that -- I see that the first
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` paragraph you mentioned, Column 3, Lines 58
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` through Column 4 Line 3, that does mention
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` Figure 3, correct?
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` A Yes, it does.
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` Q And the second reference, Column 4,
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` Lines 54 through 65, I believe, is what you
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` identified, that does not refer to either server
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` 48 or Figure 3, correct?
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` A No, but it refers to a WAN and a
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` plurality of sites on a WAN and one understands
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` that would pertain also to Figure 3, because
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` that is where WAN is discussed.
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` Q Again, you said one would understand
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` that. That is not explicitly provided in the
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` text, correct?
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` A Well, yeah, understands Figure 3 has a
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` WAN in it. This is discussing the WAN. One
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` would understand that that is what it is talking
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` about.
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` Q I am just trying to get a -- I am trying
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` to understand what it is that is explicitly in
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` Spadaro only that regards server 48 in your
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` opinion.
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` A In my opinion, the disclosure in Column
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` 4 pertains to server 48. It describes Figure 3,
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` an application of Figure 3. It talks about a
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` WAN. It talks about multiple sites. That is
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` exactly what Figure 3 talks about. It is also
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` what the other paragraph in Column 3 talks
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` about. I think that the two also describe
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` Figure 3 about server 48.
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` Q Do you understand what "explicit" means?
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` MR. RICHARDSON: Objection.
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` THE WITNESS: Yes. Explicit means that it
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` pertains to the matter at hand.
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` BY MR. SAAD:
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` Q That is your definition of explicit?
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` A Yeah. That is not simply implied, but
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` it is direct. My mind reads directly on server
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` 48.
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` Q So when you perform your analysis on a
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` piece of prior art, you consider it explicit
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` disclosure if it pertains to the matter at hand?
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` MR. RICHARDSON: Objection, form.
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` THE WITNESS: Directly I said. Not
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` implicitly. Directly it pertains to the matter
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` at hand. It doesn't have to mention the word,
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` but if it relates directly to that -- the
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` device, then one would understand that is
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` direct.
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` I don't have to mind the word -- doesn't
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` have to have server 48 listed here to be
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` direct and explicit.
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` Q But when I asked you to identify any
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` portion of Spadaro that actually used the term
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` server 48, it was only Figure 3 and Lines 3, 57
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` through -- Column 3, Lines 57 through -- or 55
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` through 57, correct?
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` A Repeat that question.
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` Q I will restate.
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` A Yeah.
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` Q When I asked you to identify the
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` explicit mention of the term server 48 in
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` Spadaro, each and every reference to that, you
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` only provided Figure 3, and Column 3, lines 55
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` through 57, correct?
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` A That explicit -- that has the word
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` server 48 in it, yes.
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` Q Okay. Which is explicit, correct?
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` A That is certainly explicit. That is not
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` the only explicit reference to it. I believe
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` his direct reference is to server 48 elsewhere.
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` In my mind, it doesn't have to have the exact
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` word in it to be explicit.
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` Q What about this paragraph on -- in
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` Column 4, lines 54 through 65 indicate to you
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` that this refers to either server 48 or Figure
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` 3? Because I don't see either of those terms.
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` MR. RICHARDSON: Objection. Asked and
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` answered.
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` THE WITNESS: First of all, again, in
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` discussion of Figure 3, it discusses a
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` plurality of sites connected on the WAN.
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` Q Can you be explicit about what you're
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` pointing to as the discussion of Figure 3?
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` A Yes. See Figure 3 itself demonstrates
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` interconnection of a plurality of sites to
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` Figure 48 and these --
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` Q So you're not reading from the patent
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` right now, correct?
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` A This is the patent. I am -- I am trying
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` to describe what Figure 3 shows.
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` Q You're describing what Figure 3 says.
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` But the patent is not describing what Figure 3
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` says. I'm interested in what the patent says,
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` what Spadaro says about Figure 3.
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` A I can read -- I'm reading the figure, to
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` one of ordinary skill in the art. This is what
`
` the figure says. The figure shows a plurality
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` of sites. One would understand that, because
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` they are labeled. They are labeled site. They
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` are labeled site 36, 38, 40, 42. That is
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` written down in words. There are words on
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` Figure 3.
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` Figure 3 also shows server 48 in words.
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` It also depicts it in -- in -- as a figure as
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` well. It shows interconnections between them
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` and it shows that there -- that server 48 is
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` apart from the rest. So there would be a
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` interconnection between them using a LAN or a
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` WAN. One would read it that way.
`
` That is verified by the text itself. So
`
` that is what I would read by reading the graph.
`
` It has words on it. It has pictures on it. To
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` my mind, that is -- that is explicit discussion
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` of it. Now, let me see here. That's -- sorry.
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` Q How does that relate to the paragraph in
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` Column 4 that you identified?
`
` A That is part of it. The column in
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` Figure 4 says, "by connecting a plurality of
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` sites on the WAN," which is what Figure 3 shows;
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` "multiple sites could share a common set of
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` local access circuits." And that is what Figure
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` 3 shows.
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` That is also described in the
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` connection -- what the description of Figure 3
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` that is in Column 3 through 4.
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` Q Okay. That paragraph in Column 4 that
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` you're reading from, do you understand that to
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` be describing the invention disclosed by
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` Spadaro?
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` A It -- it is a disclosure of -- of an
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` embodiment of Spadaro where that is the
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` invention -- I believe the invention is found in
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` the claims. But it certainly discloses this
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` particular embodiment to Spadaro.
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` Q Figure 3, if we look at that, it
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` explicitly labels that as prior art, correct?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q So that would not indicate to you what
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` he is discussing in Column 4 does not refer to
`
` Figure 3 because Figure 3 is prior art?
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` A If you read, though, the fact that --
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` that's why I am saying you have to couple it
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` with the description in Column 3, the paragraph.
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` It says, "in accordance with the present
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` invention lower cost" --
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` Q Sorry, I will stop you right there. "In
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` accordance with the present invention," what
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` does that mean to you?
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` A It means that this is going to be an
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` embodiment here, okay. That is what I think it
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` means.
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` Q Would that be different than prior art
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` to you?
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` A Yes.
`
` Q Okay. So Figure 3 is labeled as prior
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` art?
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` A That's right.
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` Q And when he talks -- when he is in that
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` sentence you're reading from Column 3, he is now
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` saying, "in accordance with the present
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` invention," correct?
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` A Yes.
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` Q But do you think he is still referring
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` to the embodiment in Figure 3?
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` A Let me continue reading, and I will -- I
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` will say yes, --
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` Q Okay.
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` A -- it does. "In accordance with the
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` present invention, lower costs and efficiency
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` are obtained by operating systems such as Figure
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` 2 and 3, which is labeled prior art." But he is
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` saying now in accordance with the present
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` invention over Ethernet and voiceover IP
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` protocol networks. That is what the present
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` invention talks about.
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` And if you look at, in fact, if you look
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` at Column 1, what the object of the invention
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` is, I am going to read it to you. Column 1,
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` Line 58. "It is an object of the present
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` invention to use voiceover internet protocol
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` networks to transmit information from a
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` controlled public telephone system."
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` It is consistent with the aim of the
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` invention. That's what you're going to do here
`
` now.
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` For example, I am going back to Column 3
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` now, Line 61. "Each prison state in the state
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` prison system has commander units, such as shown
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` in Figure 3." Again, the example is of the
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` present invention. He is using Figure 3 and
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` showing how he is going to modify that for the
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` present invention, provide voiceover IP.
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` There may be a thousand phones, but all
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` the phones are connected through commander
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` systems over voiceover internet protocol
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` networks. That's a WAN. Often large
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` administrative systems such as this have
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` existing data networks which process and
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` transmit e-mail and the like, providing a
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` control computer such as commander with a
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` voiceover IP gateway and Ethernet capability
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` allows the public telephone systems at various
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` sites to be integrated into data network easily.
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` So I believe he is talking in accordance
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` with the present invention, Figure 3, but
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` modified to include a voiceover IP WAN. That's
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` the way I read it. I think it's very explicit
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` to me.
`
` Q So you agree that that is talking about
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` a modification of Figure 3 to bring it into
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` accordance with the present invention in
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` Spadaro's mind, correct?
`
` A It's not a modification, because Figure
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` 3 doesn't show what the connections are. He is
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` simply making it explicit. He says, take Figure
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` 3, okay, which is well known, but I am going to
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` use those links that are going to be voiceover
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` IP links, which are not labeled in Figure 3. He
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` is making it explicit. His invention is Figure
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` 3 with both links being voiceover IP.
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` Q Is that what he says?
`
` A Yeah. In accordance with the present
`
` invention. Let me read this again. "In
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` accordance" -- present invention he said, "lower
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` cost efficiency are obtained by operating system
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` such as shown in Figure 2 and 3 over Ethernet
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` and voiceover IP internet protocol networks.
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` That is what I just finished saying.
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` Q And is anything in Figure 2 or 3 labeled
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` as an Ethernet or voiceover IP internet protocol
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` network?
`
` A No. That is exactly the point. It is
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` just drawn in general, but he is saying I am
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` going to make that a voiceover IP. It was known
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` in general to be -- if you look at the
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` discussion beforehand, you know, anyway, in
`
` Figure 3 and 2, they are not labeled. He is
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` making explicit -- he says, the invention is
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` those links are, in fact, voiceover IP links.
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` It is --
`
` Q That's what you're saying. That is not
`
` what he said.
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` A That's what is he saying.
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` Q Not in those words, correct? He didn't
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` talk about the links in Figure 3, did he, at
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`Page 22
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` all?
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` A Yes.
`
` Q Where?
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` A "In accordance with the present
`
` invention, lower costs and efficiency are
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` obtained by operating systems such as shown in
`
` Figure 2 and 3, over Ethernet and voiceover
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` internet protocol networks. A network is
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` composed of links. One of ordinary skill in the
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` art would know that. I read this; it's very
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` clear to me. That is what he is referring to.
`
` Q So is it your opinion that you can take
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` the networks of Figure 2 and 3, slap on the
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` label of Ethernet or voiceover IP onto those
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` links, and all of a sudden you have a voiceover
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` IP network?
`
` MR. RICHARDSON: Object to form.
`
` THE WITNESS: Yeah.
`
` MR. SAAD: Okay.
`
` THE WITNESS: That is what he is saying.
`
` He gives more specificity later on in the
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` paragraph how one would do that, but...
`
` Q What is your understanding of what a
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` voiceover IP gateway does?
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` A What a gateway is is interconnection
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` between two different networks.
`
` Q Is that your answer to my question?
`
` A One of which is voiceover IP.
`
` Q So what does a gateway actually do?
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` A One of ordinary skill in the art -- a
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` gateway would take, for example, analog phone
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` lines from telephones, or it could take incoming
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` analog trunks or digital trunks from the PSTN
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` and convert that into an internet protocol There
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` is a whole art behind that. By this time it was
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` well known.
`
` Q So when applied to a voiceover IP
`
` gateway, what is it converting?
`
` MR. RICHARDSON: Objection to form.
`
` THE WITNESS: What it would convert,
`
` again, are you referring to a specific section
`
` here or just in general?
`
` Q Just in general.
`
` A Just in general, it refers to taking --
`
` I gave two examples. You could have a local
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` phone system, which has analog lines on it. You
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` would take -- you would digitalize the voice.
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` You would encapsulate it into voiceover IP
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` packets. You would address it and form an IP
`
` packet, and send it over network using some
`
` protocol like a SIP protocol or H.323 protocol,
`
` to engage in a conversation, for example.
`
` That's what you're talking about there. The
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` voiceover IP gateway would do that, those
`
` functions for you.
`
` Q Do you think that is inconsistent in any
`
` way with the way that Spadaro uses the term
`
` voiceover IP gateway?
`
` A No. I think that is what it is. If you
`
` look at where he points to a voiceover IP
`
` gateway, it is always the intersection of two
`
` networks. That is what a gateway means.
`
` Q I am going to hand you two documents
`
` here. The first one is what is marked as
`
` GTL1001 in the '824 matter. And the second one
`
` is Exhibit GTL1001 in the '825 matter.
`
` Do you recognize these as the two
`
` patents at issue in these matters?
`
` A Yes. I believe that is the case.
`
` Q If I refer to U.S. patent
`
` number 8,340,260, which is GTL1001 in the '824
`
` matter as the '260 patent, will you understand
`
` what I'm talking about?
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` A Yes. You already used that term before,
`
` yes.
`
` Q And the same for patent
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` number 7,529,357, which is GTL1001 in the '825
`
` matter. If I refer to that as the '357 patent,
`
` you understand what I mean?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q All right. Based on these patents, what
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` in your opinion, is the plain and ordinary
`
` meaning of the term call application management
`
` system?
`
` A I believe I addressed that in my
`
` declaration. So for consistency, if I could see
`
` my declaration.
`
` Q Did you provide the definition of the
`
` plain and ordinary meaning?
`
` A Yeah. I said that -- that Dr. Akl's
`
` definition would be sufficient. That is what I
`
` believe said.
`
` Q You agreed with Dr. Akl's definition?
`
` A The one definition. That's what I am
`
` saying. If you look -- he then modifies it.
`
` His initial definition seemed reasonable,
`
` something that processes calls. He later
`
` altered it to include another limitation. Calls
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` from start to finish, or something like that.
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` To be precise, I'd like to see my
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` declaration.
`
` Q I'm handing you what is marked as
`
` GTL1020 in the '825 matter.
`
` Oh, sorry, wrong one. Pass that to him.
`
` A Sorry.
`
` Q I am also handing you what is marked as
`
` GTL1020 in the '824 matter.
`
` Do you recognize this as your second
`
` declaration that you submitted in each of these
`
` matters?
`
` A It appears to be.
`
` Q All right. And if looking at either of
`
` those, if you will identify for me what you
`
` believe to be the plain and ordinary meaning of
`
` call application management system.
`
` A On paragraph 8 of my second declaration,
`
` I guess they are almost identical, I will be
`
` referring to the '357 one which is the '825 IPR.
`
` Q Okay.
`
` A And Dr. Akl, he didn't state it, but he
`
` suggests that the term call application
`
` management system should be construed to mean a
`
` system performing call processing for a
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` plurality of prisons --
`
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record.
`
` The time is 9:42.
`
` (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken.)
`
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now on the
`
` record. The time is 9:44.
`
` BY MR. SAAD:
`
` Q Dr. Forys, before we went off the record
`
` you were providing comments, I believe, on your
`
` paragraph 8 of the second declaration.
`
` A Yes. And it said that Dr. Akl suggests
`
` a certain definition. It says, "a system
`
` performing call processing for plurality of
`
` prisons." And I don't have any problem with
`
` that. It's not inconsistent with the language.
`
` I could certainly live with that, that kind of
`
` wording.
`
` Q You --
`
` A That by itself, I have no problem with
`
` that by itself.
`
` Q Okay. So you agree with Dr. Akl's
`
` definition that he provides for the call
`
` application management system that is a system
`
` performing call processing for a plurality
`
` prisons, correct?
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` A Yeah. But later on he inserts all call
`
` processing. That is where I have a problem.
`
` Q Let's look at page 2 of your
`
` declaration. On page 2 you have a section
`
` titled, materials considered. And you list
`
` quite a few references there. Is that -- what
`
` is the purpose of this listing of references?
`
` A These are a list of all the references
`
` to date that I considered in this entire matter,
`
` not just for the second declaration, but
`
` historical for the record, if you want.
`
` Q Is there a separate list of references
`
` that you relied upon for purposes of this second
`
` declaration?
`
` A It would be a subset, obviously. I
`
` don't refer -- for example, I don't refer to the
`
` Bellcore document. The patent board focused on
`
` only a few of the prior art references. So even
`
` though I listed the Bellcore one, I didn't
`
` incorporate that or use it in writing the second
`
` declaration, but historically it was part of the
`
` record, the things that I looked at.
`
` Q Okay. If we look at page 5 of your
`
` declaration, you have a discussion there
`
` starting on page 5 regarding the claim
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