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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` Toshiba, et al.,
` IPR 2014-00800
` IPR 2014-00802
` Petitioners, IPR 2014-00805
`
` vs.
` ZOND, LLC,
` Patent Owner.
`
`-----------------------------------------------------
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF LARRY D. HARTSOUGH, Ph.D.
` Oakland, California
` Thursday, April 16, 2015
`
`REPORTED BY:
`TAVIA MANNING, CSR No. 13294, CLR, CCRR, RPR
`JOB NO. 92534
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`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 800-702-9580
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` Toshiba, et al.,
` IPR 2014-00800
` IPR 2014-00802
` Petitioners, IPR 2014-00805
`
` vs.
` ZOND, LLC,
` Patent Owner.
`
`-----------------------------------------------------
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF LARRY D. HARTSOUGH, Ph.D.
` Oakland, California
` Thursday, April 16, 2015
`
`REPORTED BY:
`TAVIA MANNING, CSR No. 13294, CLR, CCRR, RPR
`JOB NO. 92534
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 800-702-9580
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` April 16, 2015
` 9:00 A.M.
`
`Page 2
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`Deposition of LARRY D. HARTSOUGH, Ph.D.,
`taken on behalf of Petitioners at 1001
`Broadway Street, Oakland, California,
`before Tavia Manning, Certified Shorthand
`Reporter No. 13294, Certified LiveNote
`Reporter, California Certified Realtime
`Reporter, Registered Professional Reporter.
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`APPEARANCES:
`
`FOR THE GLOBALFOUNDRIES PETITIONERS:
` WHITE & CASE
` BY: DAVID TENNANT, ESQ.
` BRETT RISMILLER, ESQ.
` 701 Thirteenth Street, NW
` Washington DC 20005
`
`FOR PETITIONER TOSHIBA:
` BAKER BOTTS
` BY: ROBINSON VU, ESQ.
` One Shell Plaza
` 910 Louisiana Street
` Houston, TX 77002
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`APPEARANCES (CONTINUED):
`
`FOR THE PATENT OWNER ZOND, LLC:
` ASCENDA LAW GROUP
` BY: AMY EMBERT, ESQ.
` 333 West San Carlos Street
` San Jose, CA 95110
` -- and --
` CHAO HADIDI STARK & BARKER
` BY: BRUCE BARKER, ESQ.
` 176 East Main Street
` Westborough, MA 01581
`
`Also present: Sean McGrath, Videographer
`
` ***
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` OAKLAND, CALIFORNIA;
` THURSDAY, APRIL 16, 2015; 9:00 A.M.
`
`Page 5
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` (Deposition Exhibits 1 through 6 were
` marked for identification.)
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning.
` This is the beginning of Disk Number 1 of
`the videotaped deposition of Dr. Larry Hartsough in
`the matter of Toshiba, et al., versus Zond, LLC,
`before the Patent Trial and Appeal Board; IPR
`2014-00800, IPR 2014-00802, and IPR 2014-00805.
` This deposition is being held at 1001
`Broadway, Oakland, California on April 16th, 2015,
`at approximately 9:00 a.m.
` My name is Sean McGrath from TSG Reporting,
`Incorporated, and I'm the legal video specialist.
`The court reporter is Tavia Manning, in association
`with TSG Reporting.
` Will counsel please introduce yourselves,
`starting with the questioning attorney.
` MR. VU: Robinson Vu, with the law firm of
`Baker Botts. I represent Toshiba, Petitioner.
` MR. RISMILLER: Brett Rismiller, with White
`& Case, LLP, on behalf of GLOBALFOUNDRIES U.S. Inc.;
`GLOBALFOUNDRIES Dresden Module One, LLC & Co. KG;
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`GLOBALFOUNDRIES Dresden Module Two, LLC & Co. KG.
`And with me is my associate, David Tennant, also
`from White & Case and also on behalf of
`GLOBALFOUNDRIES.
` MR. BARKER: Bruce Barker from Chao Hadidi
`Stark & Barker for the patent owner Zond, and with
`me is Amy Embert of the Ascenda Law Group.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court reporter
`please swear in the witness and we can proceed.
`
` LARRY D. HARTSOUGH, Ph.D.,
`having been first duly sworn, testified as follows:
`
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. VU:
` Q. Good morning, Dr. Hartsough.
` A. Good morning.
` Q. I am going to hand you some premarked
`exhibits. There are only five (sic) of them, just
`so that you have them for reference.
` That's one, two, and three. And these --
`there's only one set of these.
` So I am going to hand you what's been
`marked -- what have been marked as exhibits one
`through five.
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` Exhibit 1, for the record, is the '421
`patent.
` Exhibit 2 is your declaration for inter
`partes reviews 2014-800, -802 and -805.
` Exhibit 3 is U.S. Patent Number 6,413,382.
` And then exhibits 4, 5, and 6 are some
`working exhibits that I want to start with,
`actually. I am going to hand you these in one
`bundle here.
` So before we get to the exhibits,
`Dr. Hartsough --
` MR. BARKER: Robinson, can I have copies of
`4, 5, and 6? I don't think I have them.
` MR. VU: I don't have a set of them
`either -- we're going to -- only the witness has got
`them.
` MR. BARKER: Well, yeah, when we get to the
`point of questioning, why don't we stop and make
`some copies? Because I think I would like to have a
`view what he's going over.
` MR. VU: Sure. That's fine.
`BY MR. VU:
` Q. Okay. So, Dr. Hartsough, before we start
`with the exhibits, you submitted a declaration,
`correct, for IPRs relating to the '421 patent?
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` A. Yes.
` Q. And you're familiar with the '421 patent?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And you're familiar with the
`declaration that you submitted?
` A. Yes.
` Q. I want to start with some background.
` Are you familiar with the term "pulse"?
` A. Well, the term "pulse" has been used in
`these patents, and I understand its meaning as it's
`used here.
` Q. And can you tell me what your understanding
`of the meaning of "pulse" is?
` A. It's clear from the patent and the other
`references' prior art that mentions what it is. It
`has certain characteristics and...
` Q. Can you tell me what "pulse" means to you
`in relation to the '421 patent?
` A. I don't think I can give you a definition
`of it. As I said, as it's used here, I understand
`what it means.
` Q. Okay. What's your understanding of what it
`means?
` MR. BARKER: Objection; asked and answered.
` THE WITNESS: In the context of these
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`patents, it's pretty clear what it means.
`BY MR. VU:
` Q. Okay. But, Dr. Hartsough, if it's clear
`what it means, I would like you to tell me what it
`means.
` MR. BARKER: Asked and answered.
` THE WITNESS: The patents distinguish
`between pulses and continuous applications of power
`or voltage or other aspects of energy that's
`delivered to a cathode and an anode, and the
`distinction between those two is pretty clear within
`the context of the patents.
`BY MR. VU:
` Q. Okay. And what is the distinction between
`the two?
` A. One is continuous and one is pulsed.
` Q. Okay. It sounds like you defined "pulse"
`with the word "pulsed"; is that correct?
` A. The pulse -- the meaning of the word
`"pulse" within the context of these patents is
`clear.
` Q. If it's clear, Dr. Hartsough, I would like
`you to tell me what it means.
` A. I am not going to -- I am not going to try
`to come up with a definitive definition of the word
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`as it's used. To a person of ordinary skill in the
`art, it's clear what it means.
` Q. Okay. For the record, you are refusing to
`articulate to me what "pulse" means in the context
`of the '421 patent?
` MR. BARKER: Objection; argumentative.
`BY MR. VU:
` Q. Is that correct?
` A. I said it's clear what it means within the
`usage -- its usage of the patent, and it would be
`clear to a person of ordinary skill in the art.
` Q. And why do you think it's clear?
` A. Why do I think it's clear?
` Q. Yes.
` A. Because it -- they -- the application of
`power that's discussed in these patents is either
`pulsed or it's continuous, and it's definitely
`distinguished from continuous in the context of the
`patent.
` Q. What's the difference between "pulsed" and
`"continuous"?
` A. The -- it's clear in the distinction of the
`patents what it is.
` Q. But you can't tell me what that is?
` A. I -- it has -- the patents describe that
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`pulses have various characteristics, and they are --
`they are enumerated in the patents.
` Q. Okay. So you say the patent described that
`pulses have certain characteristics; is that
`correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. And what are those characteristics?
` A. I don't want to limit my understanding or
`your understanding by an incomplete definition. As
`I said, they have certain characteristics and among
`them is a duration that's not continuous.
` Q. And by "not continuous," what do you mean?
` A. It's clear from the patent what continuous
`is meant.
` Q. Are you referring to continuous power?
` A. Wang talks about continuous application of
`energy and Chistyakov talks about a continuous
`application of energy. In the context of those
`specifications, that's clearly distinguished from
`pulses.
` Q. Okay. If I understand you correctly,
`according to the '421 patent, the pulse is something
`that has duration and that is not continuous; is
`that correct?
` A. It has a duration and it's not continuous.
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` Q. Okay. Are there any other characteristics
`of pulsed?
` A. There are -- there are listed in -- you
`know, there are lots of other characteristics. I am
`not -- in the interest of trying to be accurate, I
`have not been asked to define "pulse." I haven't
`thought about a complete and comprehensive
`definition of pulse in these contexts, and I really
`don't think that it's appropriate to try to arrive
`at that at this point in time when I haven't been
`asked to define it.
` My understanding -- the understanding of a
`person of ordinary skill in the art would read these
`patents and understand very clearly the distinction
`between pulsed application of power and continuous
`application of power or any other energy
`characteristic.
` Q. And so is a pulse something that you would
`recognize if you saw it?
` MR. BARKER: Objection; lack of foundation.
` THE WITNESS: Again, that's a very general
`question. I recognize its depiction in the
`applications in these patents.
`BY MR. VU:
` Q. Okay. So let's go to the '421 patent,
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`Page 13
`which is Exhibit 1 in front of you, and I want to
`direct your attention to Figure 6.
` You're familiar with Figure 6,
`Dr. Hartsough?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Let's just look at the top figure in
`Figure 6.
` Is there a pulse shown in the top figure in
`Figure 6?
` MR. BARKER: Objection; lack of foundation.
` THE WITNESS: (Witness reviewing document.)
` Figure 6 is a very graphical representation
`of -- as described in the '421 patent specification
`on column 15, lines 37 to 40:
` "Graphical representations of the absolute
` value of applied voltage, current, and
` power, respectively, as a function of time
` for periodic pulses applied to the plasma
` in the sputtering apparatus 200 of
` Figure 4."
`BY MR. VU:
` Q. So is there a pulse shown in the top graph
`of Figure 6?
` MR. BARKER: Objection to form, lack of
`foundation.
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` THE WITNESS: The specification says what
`it says. It's a representation of periodic pulses.
`BY MR. VU:
` Q. So you would agree that pulses are shown in
`Figure 6?
` MR. BARKER: Same objection.
` THE WITNESS: That's what it says.
`BY MR. VU:
` Q. Okay. Can you tell me where -- where you
`see a pulse in Figure 6?
` MR. BARKER: Same objection.
`BY MR. VU:
` Q. And if we could start, Dr. Hartsough, with
`T1.
` A. That's on -- that's not the -- that's not
`the beginning of the application of power in this
`illustration.
` Q. Okay. Well, let's start -- let's get
`oriented.
` Let's look at the bottom figure -- excuse
`me, the bottom graph of Figure 6.
` Do you agree that that's a power graph?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And T1, do you see T1?
` A. Yes.
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` Q. It starts -- the graph starts at label 330.
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. Now there's a power level at 330;
`correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Well...
` A. Assuming that there are a lot of
`assumptions that have to be made on this graph,
`although there are generic ranges on the vertical
`axis, there is a range listed for that -- that
`value. So there is -- there is a power level.
` Q. Okay. So there is a power level at T1
`labeled at 330; is that correct?
` A. Labeled at 330, yes.
` Q. So my original question is: Starting at
`T1, when does a pulse begin?
` MR. BARKER: Objection; form, lack of
`foundation.
`BY MR. VU:
` Q. Or has there already been a pulse supplied?
` MR. BARKER: Same objection.
` THE WITNESS: That's unable to be
`determined from the graph.
`//
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`BY MR. VU:
` Q. Whether a pulse has already been applied?
` MR. BARKER: Same objection.
` THE WITNESS: It may not be a pulse.
`BY MR. VU:
` Q. Okay. If you look at -- start at T1 and
`look forward, again, we're referring to the bottom
`figure, Figure 6, do you see at any point a pulse
`being applied?
` A. As I mentioned, this is a very generic
`representation of an embodiment, and it has not been
`described in the specification as to a specific
`start time or end time for a pulse. It is described
`that -- just a moment...
` MR. BARKER: Oh, same objection. I just
`looked at the screen. I did not reiterate the
`objection. So same objection for this question as
`well.
` And, Robinson, actually, can I have a
`standing objection for this line of questioning so I
`don't have to reiterate it and interrupt you with
`each question?
` Because the way it's being posed, I will be
`asserting an objection to lack of foundation and to
`the form.
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` MR. VU: Well, what's the -- what's
`foundation? I mean, that's fine. I am normally
`agreeable, but I actually don't understand your
`objection.
` MR. BARKER: Well, you don't have to, and
`actually, we can do it offline and I explain it to
`you offline. If I explain it to you online, you
`will be complaining that I am going beyond the
`proper procedure of asserting the -- just
`identifying the objection.
` But so my question is: Can I have a
`standing objection to reserve my right or do I need
`to reiterate it? Because the way you're phrasing
`these objections, I will have that same objection to
`this line of questioning.
` MR. VU: Sir, I think you have to just keep
`making your objection until I can figure out what it
`is.
` MR. BARKER: Okay.
` THE WITNESS: So as I understand this
`description in the specification for these graphs, a
`pulse is delivered or exists between T2 and T6.
`BY MR. VU:
` Q. Okay. And is that a high-power pulse?
` A. The specification at column 16, line 38
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`describes it as:
` "The pulsed power supply 234 delivers a
` high-power pulse having a maximum power of
` peak 350."
` Q. Okay. Try and answer my question,
`Dr. Hartsough.
` Now, between the time T1 and T2, is there a
`low-power pulse being applied?
` MR. BARKER: Objection; lack of foundation.
`BY MR. VU:
` Q. Let me direct -- let me direct your
`attention, Dr. Hartsough, to column 8, line 29. If
`you're there, I'll read it for the record.
` "In one embodiment, the pulsed power supply
` 234 generates a low-power pulse having an
` initial voltage that is between about 100 V
` and 5 KV with a discharge current that is
` between about 0.1 A and 100 A in order to
` generate weakly-ionized plasma."
` A. I think I answered your question. Yes, I
`see it.
` Q. Okay, yeah. No, that's perfectly fine.
` Now, in view of the statement that I read
`you from the specification, looking at Figure 6, do
`you see that the ranges given, in the part of
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`column 8 that I read to you, are consistent with the
`values of Figure 6?
` A. This specification and disclosure discloses
`many different embodiments.
` Q. Yep.
` A. And there's no indication that what you've
`just described is part of the embodiment that's
`described in Figure 6.
` Q. Is it your testimony --
` A. None whatsoever. There's no indication
`whatsoever.
` The specification at column -- what
`column -- that was column 16 -- is talking about a
`particular embodiment, and it says that a high-power
`pulse is still delivered.
` Q. Okay. But I am talking about a different
`time period, Dr. Hartsough, the time period between
`T1 and T2. I am just orienting you, and then I will
`follow up with my question. Okay?
` So as to the time period between T1 and T2,
`is a low-power pulse being applied?
` MR. BARKER: Objection; form and lack of
`foundation.
` THE WITNESS: I think I already answered
`that. I said that the pulses exist -- being
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`delivered between T2 and T6 is a high-power pulse,
`as described in the specification.
`BY MR. VU:
` Q. That's correct. You answered the other
`question. This is a different question, and I'll
`ask it again.
` In the time period between T1 and T2 in
`Figure 6 is low-power pulse being applied?
` MR. BARKER: Same objection.
` THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
` That's part of the high-power pulse is what
`the specification says.
`BY MR. VU:
` Q. So it's your testimony that in the time
`period between T1 and T2, a high-power pulse is
`being applied?
` A. That's the rise time period of the
`high-power pulse, so -- the high-voltage part of the
`high-power pulse.
` As I said, the specification is clear that
`a high-power pulse is being applied in this
`illustration of one embodiment of the specification.
`The description that you alluded to earlier, there's
`no indication at all that that's part -- considered
`to be part of this embodiment of the disclosure.
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` Q. So it's your testimony that what I read
`from column 8 is not part of the embodiment shown in
`Figure 6; is that correct?
` MR. BARKER: Objection; form, lack of
`foundation.
` THE WITNESS: I think I answered that. I
`said there's no indication that it is.
`BY MR. VU:
` Q. Is there any indication --
` Go ahead.
` A. And there is every indication that the
`high -- that what is being delivered in the pulse
`illustrated is a high-power pulse. That's what it
`says.
` Q. Is there any indication that the part of
`the specification that we read in column 8 is not
`part of the embodiment shown in Figure 6?
` MR. BARKER: Objection; form and
`foundation.
` THE WITNESS: Please repeat the question.
`BY MR. VU:
` Q. Is there any indication that part of the
`specification that we read in column 8 is not part
`of the embodiment shown in Figure 6?
` MR. BARKER: Same objection.
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` THE WITNESS: The indication is that it's
`not discussed in the -- that that's not discussed in
`the paragraphs that discuss Figure 6.
`BY MR. VU:
` Q. Okay. And then let's go to column 16
`again, and I want to read line 15. Just let me know
`when you're there.
` A. What line number did you say?
` Q. Column 16, starting at line 15.
` A. Right.
` Q. It reads:
` "Between the time T2 and T3, the pulsed
` power supply 234 delivers a large voltage
` pulse 338 across the weakly-ionized plasma
` 262."
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And so this part of the specification
`states that a large pulse -- voltage pulse is
`delivered between time T2 and T3; is that correct?
` A. Across the weakly-ionized plasma, yeah.
` Q. Is that correct?
` Now, why do you say that a strong -- a
`high-power pulse is delivered between T1 and T2?
` A. It's indicated that that's part of the
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`high-power pulse.
` Q. Can you identify where that is indicated?
` A. Well, one of ordinary skill in the art
`would understand that in a pulse that's in the type
`of pulse that's illustrated here, the -- which says
`that it's in a power mode, that there is some small,
`what they call, a "relaxation period" between the
`application of the pulse and the start of an
`increase in current into the plasma.
` And -- but the pulse itself is described
`from the beginning of the application of this large
`voltage to the weakly-ionized plasma. So it --
`that -- that entire period of time between T2 and T6
`is part of the high-power pulse. And one of
`ordinary skill in the art would recognize that.
` Q. So the period of time between T2 and T6 is
`the high-power pulse; is that what you said?
` A. That's what I said.
` Q. Okay. Let's go back to the period between
`T1 and T2.
` Let me direct your attention to column 15,
`line 56 -- to column 15, line 56.
` It reads:
` "Between time T1 and between time T2, the
` voltage 236, the current 328, and the power
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` 330 remain constant as the weakly-ionized
` plasma 262 (Fig. 5b) is generated."
` Do you have an understanding what that
`means?
` A. Well, it says what it says. The -- in
`this -- in the illustrated embodiment, he's talking
`about an embodiment in which the -- there is a
`weakly-ionized plasma as a continuous or constant
`background.
` Q. And this is the time period between T1 and
`T2; correct?
` A. As he mentions earlier, he's not
`illustrating the ignition of that plasma. At column
`15, line 41, in one embodiment, at time T0, not
`showing the feed gas flows and before the power gas
`supply is activated.
` And he says at time T1, later on, the power
`supply generates a voltage across the anode and the
`cathode. And so, again, what he is illustrating
`here is a constant weakly-ionized plasma.
` Q. Okay. And the part that I just read for
`the record, the '421 patent says between time T1 and
`T2, weakly-ionized plasma is generated; correct?
` A. That's what it says.
` Q. Okay. So my question is: How is the
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`weakly-ionized plasma generated between time T1 and
`T2 according to the '421 patent?
` A. It's just there. You know, I mean, there's
`an application of power. And he says it's, you
`know, between .01 kilowatts to 100 kilowatts.
` Q. Okay. And is that application of power a
`pulse?
` MR. BARKER: Objection; form and
`foundation.
` THE WITNESS: In this application, it
`doesn't say that it is in this embodiment.
`BY MR. VU:
` Q. What's your understanding?
` MR. BARKER: Same objection.
` THE WITNESS: Again, what is illustrated is
`one embodiment of quite a number of possible
`embodiments. In column 16, lines 45 -- the
`paragraph starting at line 45, it says:
` "In one embodiment, the power supply
` maintains the plasma after delivery of the
` high-power pulse by continuing to apply a
` power 352 to the plasma that is in the
` range of .1 to point... The continuously
` generated power maintains the preionization
` condition in the plasma while the pulsed
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` power supply prepares to deliver the next
` high-power pulse."
` That appears to be the embodiment that is
`illustrated in Figure 6. Although, he says other
`embodiments are possible.
`BY MR. VU:
` Q. Okay. Dr. Hartsough, is it your
`understanding that --
` A. So --
` Q. Oh, let me ask my question.
` A. Let me finish my answer.
` So that in the -- in the illustration what
`is shown here is that at T6, there is a -- at least
`to my eyeball anyway, there is a continuation of the
`conditions that existed between time T1 and T2,
`which indicates a continuous application of that
`power.
` Q. Okay. Is the embodiment shown in Figure 6
`covered by the claims of the '421 patent?
` MR. BARKER: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: That's my understanding that
`the claims of the '421 patent are -- encompass a
`different embodiment than the one shown in Figure 6.
`BY MR. VU:
` Q. And which embodiment is that?
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`Page 27
` A. It's an embodiment in which the -- a power
`supply, pulsed power supply, delivers a pulse that
`both creates the weakly-ionized plasma and the
`strongly-ionized plasma from the weakly-ionized
`plasma after it -- after the weakly-ionized plasma
`forms and, again, with all of the other limitations
`of the claims.
` Q. Okay. Now, why -- why do you think
`that -- strike that.
` Why do you understand that the claims do
`not cover the embodiment in Figure 6?
` MR. BARKER: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Because the description of
`the -- the low-power, low-density plasma is
`described as being quite continuously. And as a
`consequence, the -- the pulse -- basically, the next
`pulse can't create the plasma -- can't create the
`low-density plasma.
`BY MR. VU:
` Q. So you don't believe that Figure 6 is an
`embodiment of the claims because it discloses
`continuous power being applied; is that correct?
` A. That's what it illustrates.
` Q. Can you tell me where in the '421 patent an
`embodiment that is covered by the claims is
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`disclosed?
` A. (Witness reviewing document.)
` Well, one place is the discussions of
`figures 5A through D. And column 11, starting at
`line -- roughly line 13:
` "In one embodiment, the pulsed power supply
` applies a negative voltage pulse to the
` cathode assembly. The characteristics of
` the voltage pulse are chosen such that an
` electric field develops between the cathode
` assembly and the anode that creates a
` weakly-ionized plasma in the region 245
` between the anode and the cathode
` assembly."
` Q. And why do you think that embodiment is
`different from any embodiment in Figure 6?
` A. (Witness reviewing document.)
` If I can get to the Figure 6 description.
` The description of Figure 6 could encompass
`other ways of generating the weakly-ionized plasma,
`and it could have been generated by other means.
` It just says the current between time T1
`and T2, the current power remain constant as the
`weakly-ionized plasma is generated, and it talks
`about the voltage at that constant level.
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` So it, you know, obviously is or it says
`that, you know, it's maintaining it at a constant
`power level during those -- the power supply is
`doing that by generating ions. But the
`weakly-ionized plasma -- it does not say that the
`weekly-ionized plasma is ignited by that power
`supply. It just says that the weakly-ionized plasma
`is generated. It could have been generated by one
`of the other possible means of generating plasma
`that are disclosed.
` Q. Okay.
` A. And Figure 5B, the discussion of that, says
`that a pulse is applied that creates the plasma.
`That means that it ionizes the gas. So Figure 6
`doesn't preclude it, but it is not limited to the
`description that I just gave you for Figure 5B.
` Q. Figure 6 doesn't preclude what?
` A. It would not necessarily preclude
`generation of a plasma, but that's not what it
`says -- a generation of a plasma by a pulse, but it
`doesn't say that it is illustrating a pulse to
`generate the weakly-ionized plasma.
` Q. Okay. Do you have any -- do you have an
`opinion on whether, looking at Figure 6, whether
`what's being applied between T1 and T2 is a pulse?
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` A. It says -- I said it's being described as
`constant and the indication that what's illustrated
`there is that it is the constant application of
`power, because it continues after the end of the
`high-power pulse. That's -- that's the indication I
`get that it's a constant -- that I understand is
`that it's a constant application of power as
`illustrated in Figure 6.
` Q. Even if it were a constant application of
`power at T1, that power would have to be applied at
`some point; correct?
` It would have to start at some point; is
`that correct?
` A. The application of power is -- to a
`weakly-ionized plasma or to any plasma -- is
`different from the ignition of that plasma and the
`creation of it. The power has -- the description is
`that the power supply does supply power to that
`weakly-ionized plasma to maintain that in a constant
`condition.
` Q. But that power supply has to be turned on
`at some point.
` You agree with that?
` MR. BARKER: Objection; lack of foundation.
` THE WITNESS: The power supply could have
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`been turned on even in one application. The one
`embodiment that is talked about is that the power
`supply could have been turned on before the gas.
`But in this particular illustration, it says that
`the gas is turned on before the application of the
`power.
`BY MR. VU:
` Q. Okay. And the power has to go from zero to
`some value; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. Is it your testimony that when the
`power goes from zero to some value, that's not a
`pulse?
` MR. BARKER: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: That's -- that's correct.
`BY MR. VU:
` Q. Okay. And why isn't it a pulse?
` A. Again --
` MR. BARKER: Same objection.
` THE WITNESS: That's -- a pulse has, you
`know, it has characteristics that are described in
`this patent. And just -- just, that is not a pulse.
`Just -- just the application of power is not a
`pulse.
`//
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`BY MR. VU:
` Q. Okay. Dr. Hartsough, are you familiar with
`sputtering systems?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And sputtering systems have power supplies?
` A. To the extent that I have had experience
`with them or look -- evaluated
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