1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 1
` IN THE UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`_____________________________
`TAIWAN SEMICONDUCTOR
`MANUFACTURING COMPANY, LTD.
`AND TSMC NORTH AMERICA CORP., Case IPR2014-00799
` Petitioners, Patent 7,808,184
` v. Case IPR2014-00803
`ZOND, LLC, Patent 7,808,184 B2
` Patent Owner.
`__________________________
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION of RICHARD DeVITO
` Boston, Massachusetts
` November 21, 2014
`
`Reported by:
`Dana Welch, CSR, RPR, CRR, CBC, CCP
`Job #87398
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`TSMC et al v. Zond IPR2014-00799
`Page 1 Zond Ex. 2020
`
`

`

`Page 2
`
`Page 3
`
`1 APPEARANCES:
`2
`For Zond, LLC:
`3
`RADULESCU
`4
`350 Fifth Avenue
`5 New York, NY 10118
`6
`BY: ETAI LAHAV, ESQ.
`
`78
`
`9
`10
`CHAO HADIDI STARK & BARKER
`11
`176 East Main Street
`12 Westborough, MA 01581
`13
`BY: BRUCE BARKER, ESQ.
`14
`15
`16
`17
`For The Gillette Company:
`18 WILMERHALE
`19
`60 State Street
`20
`Boston, MA 02109
`21
`BY: LARISSA BIFANO PARK, ESQ.
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`- AND -
`
`--- appearances continue ---
`
` November 21, 2014
` 8:13 a.m.
`
` Videotaped deposition of RICHARD DeVITO,
`held at the offices of WilmerHale, 60 State Street,
`Boston, Massachusetts, before Dana Welch, Certified
`Shorthand Reporter, Registered Professional
`Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter, and Notary
`Public of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
`
`12345
`
`6
`
`789
`
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`Page 4
`
`APPEARANCES (continued)
`For Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company,
`Ltd. and TSMC North America Corporation and
`Fujitsu Semiconductor Limited and Fujitsu
`Semiconductor America, Inc.:
`HAYNES AND BOONE
`2323 Victory Avenue
`Dallas, TX 75219
`BY: DAVID McCOMBS, ESQ.
`
`For Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company,
`Ltd. And TSMC North America Corporation and
`Fujitsu Semiconductor Limited and Fujitsu
`Semiconductor America, Inc.:
`HAYNES AND BOONE
`1221 McKinney
`Houston, TX 77010
`BY: DONALD JACKSON, ESQ.
`
`--- appearances continue ---
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`Page 5
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`APPEARANCES (continued)
`For Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company,
`Ltd. And TSMC North America Corporation and
`Fujitsu Semiconductor Limited and Fujitsu
`Semiconductor America, Inc.:
`HAYNES AND BOONE
`2505 North Plano Road
`Richardson, TX 75082
`BY: GREGORY HUH, ESQ.
`
`For Toshiba:
`BAKER BOTTS
`One Shell Plaza
`910 Louisiana Street
`Houston, TX 77002
`BY: ROBINSON VU, ESQ.
`
`--- appearances continue ---
`
`2 (Pages 2 to 5)
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`TSMC et al v. Zond IPR2014-00799
`Page 2 Zond Ex. 2020
`
`

`

`Page 6
`
`Page 7
`
`1 APPEARANCES (continued)
`2
`For Advanced Micro Devices (by telephone):
`3 O'MELVENY & MYERS
`4
`400 South Hope Street
`5
`Los Angeles, CA 90071
`6
`BY: VINCENT ZHOU, ESQ.
`
`789
`
`10
`11 Also Present: David Woodford, Videographer
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1 APPEARANCES (continue)
`2
`For GLOBALFOUNDRIES, Inc. (by telephone):
`3 WHITE & CASE
`4
`701 Thirteenth Street, N.W.
`5 Washington, D.C. 20005
`6
`BY: DAVID TENNANT, ESQ.
`
`789
`
`10
`For Renesas Electronics Corporation and Renesas
`11
`Electronics America Inc. (by telephone):
`12
`FOLEY & LARDNER
`13
`3000 K Street, N.W.
`14 Washington, D.C. 20007
`15
`BY: JOHN FELDHAUS, ESQ.
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`--- appearances continue ---
`
`Page 8
`
`Page 9
`
`1
` DeVITO
`2
` P R O C E E D I N G S
`3
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is tape labeled
`4
`number one in the videotaped deposition of
`5
`Richard DeVito. This is in the matter of Taiwan
`6
`Semiconductor Manufacturing Company, LTD and TSMC
`7
`North America Corporation, petitioners, versus
`8
`Zond, LLC, patent owner. This is the U.S. Patent
`9
`and Trademark Office before the Patent Trial and
`10
`Appeal Board, Case IPR2014-00799, also case
`11
`IPR2014-00803, for Patent 7,808,184 B2.
`12
` This deposition is being held at the firm
`13
`of WilmerHale at 60 State Street, Boston,
`14 Massachusetts on November 21st, 2014, beginning at
`15
`8:13 a.m.
`16
` My name is David Woodford, I'm the legal
`17
`video specialist from TSG Reporting Inc.,
`18
`headquartered at 747 Third Avenue, New York, New
`19
`York. The court reporter is Dana Welch, in
`20
`association with TSG Reporting.
`21
` Will counsel present please introduce
`22
`yourselves and your affiliations and the witness
`23
`will be sworn.
`24
` MR. LAHAV: Etai Lahav of Radelescu LLP
`25
`representing patent owner Zond.
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` DeVITO
` MR. BARKER: Bruce Barker from Chao Hadidi
`Stark & Barker, also for Zond.
` MR. JACKSON: Don Jackson of Haynes and
`Boone for TSMC and Fujitsu.
` MR. HUH: Gregory Huh from Haynes and
`Boone representing TSMC and Fujitsu.
` MR. McCOMBS: David McCombs with Haynes
`and Boone representing TSMC and Fujitsu.
` MS. PARK: Larissa Park from WilmerHale
`representing Gillette.
` MR. VU: Robinson Vu with Baker Botts
`representing Toshiba.
` MR. JACKSON: Can we make a statement for
`the record about our agreement before we get
`started?
` MR. LAHAV: Absolutely. Sure.
` MR. JACKSON: TSMC is presenting the
`witness, and there are other parties who have
`joined in the proceeding, and I'm going to read the
`other proceedings that are joined with this one:
`It's 2014-00855, 2014-00858, 2014-01042,
`2014-01061, 2014-00995, and 2014-00996.
` And I believe we have Zond's agreement
`that we are presenting today this witness, and the
`3 (Pages 6 to 9)
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`TSMC et al v. Zond IPR2014-00799
`Page 3 Zond Ex. 2020
`
`

`

`Page 10
`
`Page 11
`
`1
` DeVITO
`2
`other parties, the other nonpatent owners in those
`3
`other proceedings that are joined that I just
`4
`announced can rely upon any objections that TSMC
`5 makes today.
`6
` Do we have that agreement?
`7
` MR. LAHAV: We do.
`8
` MR. JACKSON: Thank you.
`9
` RICHARD DeVITO, sworn
`10
` EXAMINATION
`11
`BY MR. LAHAV:
`12
` Q. Good morning.
`13
` A. Good morning.
`14
` Q. I just want to remind you to allow me to
`15
`finish my questions before you begin answering. Is
`16
`that all right?
`17
` A. Sure.
`18
` I may screw up, but I'll try my best.
`19
` Q. I appreciate it.
`20
` And also I'll remind you to give audible
`21
`responses to my questions, okay?
`22
` A. Okay.
`23
` Q. And try to avoid uh-huhs and things like
`24
`that. Is that all right?
`25
` A. Uh-huh.
`
`Page 12
`
`1
` DeVITO
`2
` Sorry.
`3
` Q. So yesterday we had a deposition on two
`4
`cases for the '155 patent that went all day, right?
`5
` A. Yes.
`6
` Q. Do you have any corrections or amendments
`7
`to make to your testimony from yesterday?
`8
` A. I do not right now, no.
`9
` Q. What did you do to prepare for your
`10
`deposition today?
`11
` A. What did I do?
`12
` Q. Yes.
`13
` A. I read the patents; I read my declaration.
`14
` Q. Did you meet with any of the lawyers
`15
`present here or otherwise involved in these
`16
`proceedings?
`17
` A. Yes.
`18
` Q. With whom did you meet?
`19
` A. I met with all of them prior to today.
`20
` Q. Can you name the ones that you can recall?
`21
` A. All of the -- well, I don't know their
`22
`names, but Greg, I met with this gentleman here, I
`23 met with Larissa, and the other gentleman from
`24
`TSMC.
`25
` Q. In preparation for this deposition, when
`Page 13
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` DeVITO
`did you meet with them?
` A. This morning.
` Q. For how long?
` A. Maybe 45 minutes to half an hour.
` Q. Any other preparation for this deposition?
` A. Prior to that, we had met off and on maybe
`every other week for four to eight hours.
` Q. In preparation for this week's
`depositions?
` A. Yes. Over the course of a month, not over
`the last eight months.
` Q. Okay. So four to eight hours a week for
`the past four weeks?
` A. Approximately.
` Q. Okay. Did you do anything else to prepare
`for your deposition today?
` A. I read some of the background material
`that I had referenced in my declaration.
` Q. Anything else?
` A. That's it that I can recall.
` Q. Okay. I want to hand you what we marked
`yesterday as Exhibit 2008. It's Kudryavtsev in the
`'799 petition, it's Exhibit 1004.
` MR. LAHAV: I don't have anymore. I
`
`1
` DeVITO
`2
`handed them out yesterday.
`3
` MR. JACKSON: That's fine.
`4
` Q. And I also want to hand you Exhibit 1103,
`5 which is Mozgrin. And Exhibit 1103 is the Mozgrin
`6
`reference that you discuss in your declarations,
`7
`correct?
`8
` A. Well, I believe that the board hasn't
`9
`ruled on that, but we do discuss it in other
`10
`grounds within the declaration.
`11
` Q. There are actually two claims for which
`12 Mozgrin is at issue in the --
`13
` A. You're right, excuse me, yes.
`14
` Q. -- in the '184, correct?
`15
` A. Yes.
`16
` Q. And I'll just remind you to allow me to
`17
`finish my questions before you answer --
`18
` A. Sorry.
`19
` Q. -- even if you know what the answer is
`20
`going to be. Thank you. Just for purposes of
`21
`keeping the record straight.
`22
` And at the end of the day yesterday, you
`23
`referenced Mozgrin a number of times in reference
`24
`to Kudryavtsev, right?
`25
` A. Yes. As a background reference.
`4 (Pages 10 to 13)
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`TSMC et al v. Zond IPR2014-00799
`Page 4 Zond Ex. 2020
`
`

`

`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`Page 14
`
`Page 15
`
` DeVITO
` Q. Please turn to Figure 3 of Mozgrin.
` A. Yes.
` Q. And if you look at Figure -- well, there's
`labels 1, 2a, 2b, and 3 on Figure 3, correct?
` A. Uh-huh. Yes.
` Q. And part 3, the label 3 of Figure 3 --
` A. Uh-huh, yes.
` Q. -- that corresponds to the high current
`diffuse discharge regime, correct?
` A. Um, I just have to read the part that
`talks about that.
` Q. I'll point you to the next page, 403, at
`the top in the left column.
` A. (Perusing document.)
` I don't see it.
` Q. You're on page 403 of Mozgrin?
` A. The top left column?
` Q. Yes. The second sentence, "If the current
`was increased and ranged from 15 to 1,000 amps," --
` A. Yes.
` Q. -- "a diffuse regime of high current" --
` A. Okay. I just saw it.
` Q. -- "discharge --
` COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry.
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`Page 16
`
` DeVITO
` MR. LAHAV: Okay. We'll redo that.
` Actually, I'll just withdraw that
`question.
` Q. Do you see where we are in the top of 403?
` A. I see it now.
` Q. And do you agree that part 3 of Figure 3
`corresponds to a high current diffuse discharge
`regime?
` A. I do.
` Q. Turn to Figure 6 of Mozgrin, page 405.
` So Figure 6 shows photographs of Mozgrin's
`target, right?
` A. Correct.
` Q. And the Figure 6.(a)(1) on the top left is
`a picture of the target that corresponds to the
`high current magnetron discharge, correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. And Figure 6.(a)(2) corresponds to high
`current diffusive discharge, right?
` A. Correct.
` Q. And Figure 6.(a)(3) corresponds to the arc
`regime, right?
` A. Correct.
` Q. And do you see in Figure 6.(a)(3) at the
`Page 17
`
` DeVITO
`edge of the target there are light spots?
` A. I do.
` Q. And these light spots are due to arcing,
`right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And Figure 6.(a)(2) shows similar
`light spots at the edge of the target, right?
` MR. JACKSON: Objection, form.
` A. Well, I just want to say they appear to
`be. They're at the very edge, whereas, the other
`ones are actually in the body of the actual target.
`So it's tough to see if those are maybe at the
`anode. But there are bright spots there at the
`very edge which are -- are similar to the spots in
`Figure (a) 3 but they're not directly in the body,
`deep within the body of the target.
` Q. Okay. And those white spots correspond to
`arcing, correct?
` MR. JACKSON: Objection, form.
` A. Can I just read within the body?
` Q. Absolutely.
` But if you would -- you absolutely may,
`but before you do, apart from whatever is discussed
`in Mozgrin, one of skill in the art would
`
` DeVITO
`appreciate that light spots such as this correspond
`to arcs, right?
` MR. JACKSON: Objection, lacks foundation.
` A. They can.
` Just give me a second.
` (Perusing document.)
` I've read what the -- I read what refers
`to the figure.
` Did you want to repeat the question or...
` Q. Sure.
` The white spots in Figure (a) 2 --
` A. Uh-huh. Yes.
` Q. -- just like the white spots in Figure
`(a) 3 correspond to arcs, right?
` MR. JACKSON: Objection, foundation.
` A. In the description he's silent, but one
`skilled in the -- one skilled in the art would
`presume in 3, they could possibly be arcs, but in
`2, I know it's just that they look -- so if you
`notice the arcs in (a), how they occur, sort of a
`random pattern, but in -- it's suspiciously almost
`appearing like there's a -- there's a spacing
`between all of these. So I don't know if that's
`how they're holding the target or what.
`5 (Pages 14 to 17)
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`TSMC et al v. Zond IPR2014-00799
`Page 5 Zond Ex. 2020
`
`

`

`Page 18
`
`Page 19
`
`1
` DeVITO
`2
` It's just I don't want to say that they're
`3
`arcs right now because it's just -- I mean, arcs
`4
`don't really occur like that. They're very
`5
`randomly distributed across the surface, as in 3.
`6
`This appears to be some structure possibly that's
`7
`surrounding the edge of the target, so that's my
`8
`opinion.
`9
` Q. It may be arcs, but you're not sure?
`10
` A. I'm not sure.
`11
` Q. If we look back at Figure 3, yesterday you
`12
`commented that Mozgrin has a similar current
`13
`voltage characteristic as is shown in Kudryavtsev.
`14 Were you referring to Figure 3?
`15
` A. So I don't want to -- I don't mean to
`16
`correct you. So when I was referring to -- I was
`17
`referring to the voltage characteristics, because
`18
`we were arguing if it went to zero or not, and my
`19
`comment was is that we know from the background
`20
`literature of Mozgrin and this picture that he
`21
`doesn't go to zero, so that's the point I was
`22
`trying -- so I wasn't arguing the current and
`23
`voltage in that instance, just the voltage
`24
`characteristic.
`25
` Q. Okay. So just for clarity, yesterday --
`Page 20
`
`1
` DeVITO
`2 well, let's understand what your opinion is today.
`3 At Figure 3(b), is it the same voltage
`4
`characteristic as the Figure 2(b) in Kudryavtsev?
`5
` A. It's similar, yes.
`6
` Q. So if, in fact, the light spots in
`7
`Figure 6.(a)(2) are arcs, then we should see
`8
`similar arcs in Kudryavtsev's setup as well,
`9
`correct?
`10
` MR. JACKSON: Objection, foundation.
`11
` A. Just one more time.
`12
` Q. Yeah.
`13
` If, in fact, the light spots in 6.(a)(2)
`14
`are indicative of arcs --
`15
` A. Yeah.
`16
` Q. -- can you assume that?
`17
` A. I'm not assuming, but you are. Go ahead.
`18
` Q. And so I'm going to ask you to assume
`19
`that. Can you?
`20
` A. Okay. I can assume.
`21
` Q. Okay. Assume that the light spots in
`22
`6.(a)(2) are indicative of arcs.
`23
` A. Uh-huh. Yes.
`24
` Q. That means they would be arcing in the
`25
`region 2(a), 2(b) in -- excuse me, I'm sorry. In
`Page 21
`
`1
` DeVITO
`2
`region 3 of Figure 3(b) in Mozgrin, correct?
`3
` MR. JACKSON: Objection, foundation.
`4
` A. If those were arcs.
`5
` Q. Right.
`6
` And there would similarly be arcs in
`7
`Figure 2(b) of Kudryavtsev, right?
`8
` MR. JACKSON: Objection, foundation.
`9
` A. Yeah. We're not arguing that -- yes.
`10
` Q. If you turn back to 403, page 403 in
`11 Mozgrin, the top of the left column that we were
`12
`discussing earlier --
`13
` A. Yes.
`14
` Q. -- do you see that he refers to 90 volts
`15
`as the voltage in region 3?
`16
` A. Just real quickly.
`17
` (Perusing document.)
`18
` Yes, I do.
`19
` Q. And just so I understand your opinion,
`20
`when we were talking yesterday about voltage
`21
`plummeting and approaching zero --
`22
` A. Uh-huh. Yes.
`23
` Q. -- in your opinion, is a voltage of
`24
`90 volts in the context of these high powered
`25 magnetron sputtering machines approaching zero?
`
` DeVITO
` A. Well, it certainly -- I mean, that's a
`very relative term. I mean, it's certainly closer
`to zero than the discharge voltage.
` Q. Sure.
` A. It's going in a direction towards zero,
`and it's leveling off, but it's not going to zero.
` Q. And as we spoke yesterday, normal
`operating voltages are in the several hundreds of
`volts, right, high several hundreds of volts,
`right?
` A. For a normal magnetron, yes.
` Q. With 90 volts, can secondary electrons
`sustain the diffuse discharge current?
` MR. JACKSON: Objection, form.
` A. I assume you'll get them, but they could
`possibly -- they could possibly be a lot less of
`them. I mean, there has to be secondary electrons
`because you're sustaining that plasma, right? We
`know that secondary electrons are a main component
`of plasma emission.
` But I wanted to add that you mentioned
`that for a normal magnetron, the -- you are correct
`for a normal magnetron that the typical operating
`voltage is around, you know, 450, 400 to maybe 700,
`6 (Pages 18 to 21)
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`TSMC et al v. Zond IPR2014-00799
`Page 6 Zond Ex. 2020
`
`

`

`Page 22
`
`Page 23
`
`1
` DeVITO
`2
`750. But I think, if I recall correctly, Mozgrin
`3
`is talking about this diffuse current region not
`4
`necessarily for sputtering, but for ionic etching.
`5
` Q. And how does that make a difference?
`6
` A. So for etching, you don't really need -- I
`7 mean, you'll get removal. So for etching versus
`8
`sputtering, what you typically want for sputtering
`9
`is you want extremely high rates, so you want a
`10
`voltage that's optimum for removing the target.
`11
`And so the reason why we choose 450 to 700, say, if
`12
`you certainly go lower than that, what we call the
`13
`sputter yield goes down. And if you go higher than
`14
`that, what would happen is you would get some
`15
`implantation into the target, so again, your rate
`16
`would go down, like wouldn't be contributing as
`17 much to sputtering.
`18
` For ionic etching, for etching, he calls
`19
`it ionic etching, you don't want as high a voltage.
`20
`You have to have lower voltage just because -- you
`21
`will still get removal rates but you tend -- you
`22
`tend to induce damage into the circuitry that
`23
`you're trying to etch, so 4- or 500-volts will
`24
`destroy a circuit.
`25
` For physical removal etching, you want
`Page 24
`
`1
` DeVITO
`2
` Q. Look at the bottom of 403 in the right
`3
`column, the last paragraph, just one instance, but
`4
`it says, "regime 2 was characterized by an intense
`5
`cathode sputtering." Do you see that?
`6
` A. Yes.
`7
` Q. So there's discussion of sputtering in
`8 Mozgrin as well?
`9
` A. (Perusing document.)
`10
` So I just want to make sure I know what
`11
`figure he's referring to in that. Is he referring
`12
`to Figure 4 or Figure 3?
`13
` He doesn't in Figure -- if it refers to
`14
`Figure 4, that is definitely the -- yeah, so that
`15
`would be the region of sputtering figure. So
`16
`region 2 of Figure 4, which I believe he's talking
`17
`about, regime two is characterized by an intense
`18
`cathode sputtering due to both high energy and
`19
`density of ions. And that makes sense since the
`20
`energies -- typically what you talk about
`21
`between -- here it's between 400 and 500. And he
`22
`looks like he's got about 10 amps or so there, from
`23
`the graph.
`24
` Q. And it's your opinion is Figure 3 and
`25
`Figure 4 don't represent the same setup?
`
`1
` DeVITO
`2
`less than that. And so how you get removal, still
`3
`removal, well, if you have less of 90 electro --
`4
`say you have 90 volts, how do you -- you're going
`5
`to have some removal rate. How do I increase that?
`6
`I just make sure I have a ton of current. And in
`7
`the diffuse region, you can see in the Figure (a)
`8
`and 3 above, you have a lot of very low voltage but
`9
`very high current ions, which is what you want for
`10
`what he calls ionic etching or what we would just
`11
`call etching.
`12
` Q. As we discussed yesterday, you'll always
`13
`have some source of secondary electrons, right?
`14
` A. Correct.
`15
` Q. And so, again, my question was, at
`16
`90 volts, is the -- would it be the secondary
`17
`electrons that would be sustaining the diffuse
`18
`current discharge?
`19
` MR. JACKSON: Objection, form.
`20
` A. In this context where you have a
`21 magnetron, secondary electrons will play a role,
`22
`they will play a major role, they have to play a
`23 major role.
`24
` Q. So your answer is yes?
`25
` A. Yes.
`
`Page 25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` DeVITO
` A. So I believe Figure 3 is talking about the
`pulse and Figure 4 is the different conditions of
`that pulse.
` Q. So is it talking about the same setup?
` A. When you say "the same setup," you mean
`the same --
` Q. Yeah, it's not two different experiments,
`right?
` A. Correct.
` He draws the data from Figure 4 from a
`series of pulses similar to Figure 3.
` Q. How is it that a -- turning back to 403 at
`the top in the left column, it says that "the
`current was increased in a range from 15" --
` A. I have to get there, I'm sorry.
` Q. Yeah, sure.
` A. The top left column. Go ahead.
` Q. Yes. And do you see, again, the reference
`to "if the current was increased and ranged from 15
`to a 1000 amps, a diffuse regime of high-current
`discharge was observed. Its CVC was a straight
`line parallel to the current axis. The discharge
`voltage was about 90 volts over the current range."
`Do you see that?
`
`7 (Pages 22 to 25)
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`TSMC et al v. Zond IPR2014-00799
`Page 7 Zond Ex. 2020
`
`

`

`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`Page 26
`
`Page 27
`
` DeVITO
` A. I do.
` Q. How is it that 90 volts can sustain a
`thousand amp current discharge?
` A. If a current was increased -- I'll just
`read this. Sorry.
` (Perusing document.)
` So are you asking me the physics of what's
`going on here; is that what you'd like to know?
` Q. Well, before we get to the physics, is it
`possible that the --
` MR. LAHAV: Well, actually, I'll withdraw
`that.
` Q. Yes, I would like to know the physics as
`you understand how 90 volts in this context could
`sustain the thousand amp diffuse current discharge.
` A. So as you know, he's not just applying
`90 volts and getting the 1,500 amps. So that
`90 volts is the resultant application of a high
`pulse, high power, whatever you want to call it,
`high voltage pulse.
` So as we know from all of these curves,
`from all the patents, all the background
`literature, typically what you get is when you
`apply a high voltage pulse or a high power pulse --
`Page 28
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` DeVITO
`we'll stay with high voltage because that's what
`he's talking about here -- you have a delay in an
`onset of current from the power supply, and then
`you have a rising increase in the ionization level
`of the plasma. So clearly, in the way he's
`designed his power supply, it's designed in some
`way to maintain that current, even at the lower
`voltage.
` Now, having said that, how does the plasma
`help to sustain that? Well, what's going on in the
`plasma is, you know, you have various things going
`on that as the secondary electrons come out, now
`you don't have a normal magnetron anymore. So
`normally, you would have just a magnetron with some
`plasma and you would have a circulating Hall
`current that we had talked about yesterday. This
`Hall current is the -- is the result of the E cross
`B effect and you have the electrons. And the
`electrons don't just circulate around like, you
`know, in like a tube. So the electrons are hopping
`around and they're moving, okay?
` Let me just get some water.
` So what's happening is that as they come
`off, they're picking up energy, they're getting
`
`Page 29
`
` DeVITO
`into the Hall current, and they create more ions,
`they come back down, they get de-excited, and this
`process repeats itself, okay? So that's in a
`normal situation.
` Like here, what we have now is we've
`applied a very high power pulse. We've created a
`tremendous onset of these secondary electrons that
`go into this plasma production. And once they --
`once they get there, they are sustained by the --
`so it's not really the voltage anymore. There's
`just so many of them. And they -- even though
`they -- each one is going to produce less secondary
`electrons when they hit -- I'm sorry -- even though
`the ions are going to produce less secondary
`electrons when they hit, there's so many of them
`that that effect is more than canceled out by the
`fact that these ions are only at 90 volts, there's
`just a lot of them, okay?
` And the second effect that's going on here
`is that these electrons don't have the normal
`energy in a normal magnetron when they would be
`accelerated across that electric field. So now
`they're being accelerated across for a brief amount
`of time a very high electric field. So those
`
` DeVITO
`electrons coming off have a ton of energy to give
`up to create that massive collection of ionic flux.
` So I guess the short answer is, is that
`you do have -- so you have this power supply
`that's -- that's enabling -- that's been enabled to
`deliver this high amount of current and you have --
`even though you have ions that have a low amount of
`energy, they are going to produce secondary
`electrons, they will produce a lot of them because
`there's just so many that were created during that
`power pulse, and we're maintaining that current
`with the power supply throughout the cycle of
`Figure 3(a).
` Q. And just so I understand your position,
`it's your opinion that you can ignite a plasma,
`give it a pulse, a high power pulse, and drop the
`voltage down to 90 volts and then sustain a
`thousand amp current, that's your position?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Going back to your opinion on the
`combination of Kudryavtsev and Wang.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Are you there mentally?
` A. I'm getting there. Go ahead.
`8 (Pages 26 to 29)
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`TSMC et al v. Zond IPR2014-00799
`Page 8 Zond Ex. 2020
`
`

`

`Page 30
`
`Page 31
`
`1
` DeVITO
`2
` Q. In that combination, does there need to be
`3
`52 centimeters between the anode and the cathode?
`4
` A. There does not.
`5
` Q. How would one of ordinary skill in the art
`6
`trying to apply the teachings of Kudryavtsev to
`7 Wang be able to determine that?
`8
` A. Well, I think we talked about that
`9
`briefly. You gave some indication of how one would
`10
`do that, and to some extent I would agree, is that
`11
`you would use the Paschen curve. And the Paschen
`12
`curve certainly spells out how one would scale the
`13
`reactive dimensions and the voltage and the
`14
`pressure to go towards achieving that combination.
`15
`And in fact, if you look at Kudryavtsev -- if it
`16
`okay?
`17
` Q. Absolutely.
`18
` A. So Kudryavtsev actually gives a curve in
`19
`Figure 6 which is sort of like a Paschen curve.
`20
`And it's sort of a starting of a roadmap of how one
`21
`would approach, you know, applying his process to
`22
`different geometries and different pressures and
`23
`different voltages.
`24
` Q. The pressures in Kudryavtsev are orders of
`25 magnitude higher than in Wang, right?
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`Page 32
`
` DeVITO
` A. Yes, they are.
` Q. And Kudryavtsev teaches to apply a
`positive voltage pulse, right?
` A. Correct.
` Q. To the anode?
` A. Correct.
` Q. And Wang teaches a negative voltage pulse
`to the cathode?
` A. Correct.
` Q. And so in that combination, how would you
`decide which arrangement to go with?
` A. Well, I mean, one who's studied sputtering
`knows what the effect of applying a voltage versus
`a positive -- I'm sorry -- a positive versus a
`negative voltage pulse. And so I can tell you what
`would go through my mind and how I would make that
`decision, if I can.
` Q. Go ahead.
` A. So when you apply -- when you apply a
`negative voltage pulse, as we do in normal
`sputtering, the electric field heads toward the
`cathode and you have a negative -- so it's negative
`with respect to the power -- the cathode is bias
`negative with respect to the power supply. So the
`Page 33
`
`1
` DeVITO
`2
`electric field heads toward the cathode, hence
`3
`positive ions that are created by the excitation of
`4
`the electric field are accelerated towards the
`5
`cathode.
`6
` Now, in Kudryavtsev, which is not a
`7
`sputter system, it's a plasma system, and in my
`8 mind a plasma system doesn't necessarily have to
`9
`have one or the other, but a plasma system can
`10
`connote either one.
`11
` In a positively biased electrode, as he
`12
`calls it, you would apply a positive bias, so the
`13
`electric field now is diverting outwards from your
`14
`cathode. So as a result, ions are accelerated
`15
`outwards. You're basically creating an ion source.
`16
`So one would know that if you're going to do
`17
`sputtering, you would have to bias negative with
`18
`respect to ground to get ions to accelerate towards
`19
`your cathode which is now a magnetron.
`20
` You said something that was interesting I
`21
`wanted to correct, but I don't remember what it
`22
`was, a few minutes ago.
`23
` Q. Well, if you think of it, you'll let me
`24
`know.
`25
` A. Oh, I thought of it.
`
` DeVITO
` Q. Go right ahead.
` A. I'm sorry to -- so you had mentioned that
`you were -- you had concerns that the pressure
`was -- was high in Kudryavtsev versus Wang or any
`other sputtering process. But I believe there is a
`statement -- there are several statements in -- in
`Kudryavtsev which would give one some confidence,
`as well as using Figure 6 to know that there is --
`there can be a roadmap that would lead one to the
`probability of high success at different pressures
`and, in particular, lower pressures.
` May I read those sections?
` Q. Sure.
` A. I have to find them. I know that they're
`in there, so...
` Q. Are they the same ones in your
`declaration?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. So we have them for the record.
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay.
` A. Do you want me to still read them?
` Q. I'm happy to have you read them if you'd
`like, otherwise, we know what they are. I'm giving
`9 (Pages 30 to 33)
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`TSMC et al v. Zond IPR2014-00799
`Page 9 Zond Ex. 2020
`
`

`

`Page 34
`
`Page 35
`
`1
` DeVITO
`2
`you the option.
`3
` A. Okay. I can -- well, just give me a
`4 minute. If I can't find them, we'll --
`5
` Q. You can have a minute.
`6
` A. One of them is not in the record, so if I
`7 may be able to find that.
`8
` Q. Go right ahead.
`9
` A. (Perusing document.)
`10
` So I found the one that's on the record
`11
`and I wanted to expound upon it, if I could.
`12
` Q. Go right ahead.
`13
` A. So at the bottom of 34, the last sentence,
`14
`and this is in the record. "So since the effects
`15
`studied in this work a