Exhibit 1244
`
`Exhibit 1244
`
`

`
`1
`2
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 1
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` THE GILLETTE COMPANY,
` et al.,
` Petitioners,
` Patent No. 6,896,773
` IPR 2014-00580
` vs. IPR 2014-01479
` IPR 2014-00726
` ZOND, INC. IPR 2014-01481
` Patent Owner.
`-----------------------------------------------------
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF LARRY D. HARTSOUGH, Ph.D.
` Berkeley, California
` Wednesday, February 18, 2015
`
`REPORTED BY:
`TAVIA MANNING, CSR No. 13294, CLR, CCRR, RPR
`JOB NO. 90258
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide
`(877) 702-9580
`
`

`
`Page 2
`
`Page 3
`
`APPEARANCES:
`
`FOR TAIWAN SEMICONDUCTOR MANUFACTURING COMPANY,
`LIMITED and TSMC NORTH AMERICA and FUJITSU:
` HAYNES AND BOONE
` BY: GREGORY HUH, ESQ.
` 2505 North Plano Road
` Richardson, TX 75082
`
`FOR THE GILLETTE COMPANY:
` WILMERHALE
` BY: COSMIN MAIER, ESQ.
` 7 World Trade Center
` 250 Greenwich Street
` New York, NY 10007
`
`Page 5
`
` BERKELEY, CALIFORNIA;
` WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 18, 2015; 9:07 A.M.
`
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning.
` My name is Alan Dias from TSG Reporting.
` This is a matter appearing before the
`United States Patent and Trademark Office before
`Patent Trial and Appeal Board; IPR numbers
`2014-00580, IPR number 01479, 00726, 01481.
` We are located today at 200 Marina
`Boulevard in the City of Berkeley, California.
` Today is February 18th, 2015, and the time
`is 9:08 a.m.
` Here with me is Tavia Manning also from TSG
`Reporting.
` Counsel, will you please identify yourself
`and your clients for the record.
` MR. MAIER: Cosmin Maier, of WilmerHale, on
`behalf of the Gillette Company.
` MR. HUH: Gregory Huh, from Haynes and
`Boone, on behalf of TSMC and Fujitsu.
` MR. LAHAV: Etai Lahav representing Zond,
`patent owner, and the witness.
` MR. VARDANIAN: Tigran Vardanian, with
`Radulescu, on behalf of Zond, LLC.
`
`1
`
`2 3
`
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`
`34
`
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` February 18, 2015
` 9:07 A.M.
`
`Deposition of LARRY D. HARTSOUGH, Ph.D.,
`taken on behalf of Petitioners at 200
`Marina Boulevard, Berkeley, California,
`before Tavia Manning, Certified Shorthand
`Reporter No. 13294, Certified LiveNote
`Reporter, California Certified Realtime
`Reporter, Registered Professional Reporter.
`
`APPEARANCES (CONTINUED):
`
`Page 4
`
`FOR THE PATENT OWNER ZOND, LLC:
` RADULESCU
` BY: ETAI LAHAV, ESQ.
` TIGRAN VARDANIAN, ESQ.
` 350 Fifth Avenue
` New York, NY 10118
`
`Also present: Alan Dias, Videographer
`
` ***
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide
`(877) 702-9580
`
`2
`
`1
`2
`
`3456
`
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`
`234
`
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`

`
`Page 7
` Q. And is there any reason you can't give your
`best, truthful and accurate testimony today?
` A. No.
` Q. Not on any medications or anything like
`that?
` A. No.
` Q. Okay. And if I ask you a question and you
`answer it, I'll assume you understood it; okay?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Did you do anything to prepare for today's
`deposition in connection with the '773 patent?
` MR. LAHAV: I'm just going to counsel you
`not to reveal the content of any attorney-client
`communications, but you can answer.
` THE WITNESS: Yes.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. What did you do?
` A. I reviewed materials and I met with
`counsel.
` Q. For how long did you meet with counsel?
` A. Approximately a day and a half.
` Q. What day?
` A. What days? Sunday and Tuesday of this
`week.
` Q. Have you reviewed your rough deposition
`
`Page 9
`
` A. Okay.
` Q. Sir, Exhibit 2005 is the declaration that
`you submitted in connection with the '773 patent;
`correct?
` A. Remember, I do have a hearing issue.
` Q. My apologies.
` A. Please, you know, I -- I want to make sure
`that I understand you correctly and --
` Q. Absolutely.
` A. -- sometimes I misunderstand words as well
`when -- okay.
` Q. Fair enough.
` Exhibit 2005 is the declaration you
`submitted in support of Zond's oppositions to the
`'773 patent IPRs; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And if you could turn to your CV at
`Appendix A, at page 6.
` Let me know when you're there.
` A. I am -- I'm there.
` Q. Now, here you list a number of publications
`on which you're an author; correct?
` A. Excuse me, yes.
` Q. Do any of those papers relate to
`sputtering?
`
`Page 6
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Would the court reporter
`please swear in the witness.
`
` LARRY D. HARTSOUGH, Ph.D.,
`having been first duly sworn by the court reporter,
` testified as follows:
`
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Good morning, sir.
` A. Good morning.
` Q. You recall the sort of background rules we
`went over in connection with the '184 and '155?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Would you like me to repeat any of them?
` A. Please.
` Q. So, again, as -- as we discussed last time,
`it's important that we try not to talk over each
`other. It happens but -- but we should try to
`minimize it to give the court reporter a chance to
`write everything down; is that fair?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And I'll ask you to answer audibly rather
`than nodding your head; is that -- is that okay?
` A. Yes.
`
`Page 8
`transcripts in connection with the '155 patent?
` A. I have looked at them. I haven't
`thoroughly reviewed them.
` Q. Have you reviewed rough transcripts in
`connection with the '184 deposition?
` A. I -- I don't think so. Because I -- that
`was -- I don't believe it was sent to me. But I
`can't -- can't recall.
` Q. Okay. I'm going to hand you what's already
`been marked as Gillette 1001. It's the '773 patent.
` Sir, will you understand if I refer to
`Gillette 1001 as the '773 patent?
` A. Will I understand it? Yes.
` Q. This is the patent that you studied in
`connection with today's deposition; correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Now, the '773 patent is titled, "High
`Deposition Rate Sputtering"; correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. So it relates to sputter deposition
`generally; correct?
` A. It relates to high deposition sputtering,
`yes.
` Q. I'm going to hand you your declaration,
`which is Exhibit 2005.
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`
`34
`
`5
`6
`
`78
`
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide
`(877) 702-9580
`
`3
`
`

`
`Page 10
`
` A. Yes.
` Q. Which one -- which ones?
` A. Is it -- well, I may have to refer to them
`both -- both by author and others' references.
` The D'Couto et al. paper, listed them, the
`first one.
` The third one with Denison, et al.
` The fourth one, Denison and Hartsough.
` The fifth one, Denison and Hartsough.
` Hartsough, Koch and Moulder is -- refers to
`sputtering.
` The -- the Joshi, Hartsough, and Denison
`referred to sputtering.
` Hartsough resistivity was sputtered --
`referred to sputtering.
` Hartsough and Denison in 1979 refers to
`sputtering.
` The Hartsough presentation electrooptics
`laser, '77, refers to sputtering.
` Hartsough and McCleod, 1977, refers to
`sputtering.
` McCleod and Hartsough, 1977, refers to
`sputtering.
` Q. In -- in these papers that refer to
`sputtering, you cite work done by others; correct?
`
`Page 12
` Q. Okay. Why do you cite others' work in
`papers you've written about sputtering?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: For various reasons.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. What are those reasons?
` A. To call that other -- you know, other
`work -- again, there are various reasons why one
`would cite it. And reasons might be to present
`data. It might be to discuss similar work in the
`field, to credit similar work in the field.
` There are many, many reasons.
` Q. Would you say someone -- I'm sorry, were
`you finished?
` A. There are many reasons why one might cite.
` Q. Would a reason why one would cite papers is
`because the author used the -- the reference's
`teachings in the author's work?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: It -- it could be. It
`depends.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Okay. And because maybe you're building on
`the knowledge of what's cited in the prior works;
`correct?
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`Page 11
` A. Well, I'm -- I'm sure I did in -- in them.
`But I certainly don't recall what -- you know, what
`works were cited.
` MR. MAIER: I'm going to ask the court
`reporter to mark Gillette 1025.
` (Deposition Exhibit Number 1025 was marked
` for identification.)
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Exhibit 1025 is the first paper you listed
`that referred to sputtering, D'Couto et al.,
`correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Now, if you look at the end of the paper,
`there are a number of references cited?
` A. Yes.
` Q. So you do, in fact, cite work by others in
`connection with the papers that you write; correct?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Well, as -- as primary
`author -- as not -- not primary author, I would say,
`you know, the paper cites those documents.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. But you were a contributor to this paper;
`correct?
` A. I -- I was a contributor, yes.
`
`Page 13
`
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Again, one would have -- you
`know, look at what was -- I said there are many,
`many reasons.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Understood. And --
` A. So would you repeat your question?
` Q. Yeah. I'm just trying to understand.
` What are the reasons why an author would
`cite the work of prior authors in his or her work?
` A. Well, I -- I can't --
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
` MR. LAHAV: Go ahead.
` THE WITNESS: I -- I can't -- I can't think
`of all the reasons that one might do it, you know,
`sitting here today. There are many reasons.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. What are the reasons you can think of
`sitting here today?
` A. I've -- I've talked about the ones I could
`think of, data, prior work in the field, properly
`citing it. So -- I can't think of any more at the
`moment.
` Q. If you can turn with me to page -- or,
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide
`(877) 702-9580
`
`4
`
`

`
`Page 14
`
`Page 15
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`sorry, paragraph 70 of your declaration.
` A. Oh, paragraph. I made the same mistake you
`did.
` Q. No, it's tough. I -- I will try to refer
`to paragraphs in connection with your declaration --
` A. I understand.
` Q. -- and pages in connection with everything
`else.
` It's actually nice because your declaration
`has consecutive paragraphs. Oftentimes, I'll see
`declarations with the paragraph numbers kind of
`mixed up, so it makes it more difficult. But I
`think we can safely refer to paragraphs in yours.
` Let me know when you're at paragraph 70,
`sir.
` A. I am.
` Q. Now, you state:
` "The Petitioner, however, failed to provide
` any evidence whatsoever that the elements
` from Lantsman's system, which uses two DC
` power supplies instead of a pulsed power
` supply and does not generate
` strongly-ionized plasma, would perform in
` an expected way in the pulsed power systems
` of Mozgrin or the claimed apparatus of the
`
`Page 16
` THE WITNESS: I -- I provided my opinions
`in the declaration to illustrate the reasons -- I --
`I would illustrate them with the -- with the points
`in Lantsman.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Well, that's fair enough.
` But the problem is I don't want you coming
`up with new opinions that weren't in your
`declaration.
` Do you understand that?
` A. My opinion deals with whether a person of
`ordinary skill in the art would -- would combine
`Mozgrin and Lantsman to achieve the -- the
`invention.
` And so the statement, you know, use of
`Lantsman's continuous glass flow within Mozgrin is a
`combination of all elements in which each element
`behaves as expected, does not -- does not indicate
`how Lantsman's gas flow would be combined with
`Mozgrin to achieve the invention.
` Q. Let me ask you this --
` A. May I -- may I -- please. I've asked for
`the Lantsman paper twice now. I -- I would like to
`refer to it to illustrate my answer, if -- if
`necessary.
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` '773 patent."
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes, I see that.
` Q. What is your reasoning that a person of
`ordinary skill would not combine Mozgrin with
`Lantsman?
` A. Well, I -- I would -- I want to look at the
`Lantsman system that -- that -- that you're
`suggesting there would be a reason to combine it.
` Q. I'm not sure that quite answers my
`question.
` So my question is -- let me rephrase.
` What reasoning did you provide in your
`declaration regarding why a person of ordinary skill
`would not combine Mozgrin with Lantsman?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: The flow of Lantsman -- well,
`let -- let me back up. Because I really do want to
`refer to Lantsman to explain my reasons.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Sir, I'm asking specifically only about
`your declaration.
` You understand you had to provide all of
`your opinions in your declaration; right?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
`
`Page 17
` Q. And I'll give you a chance to do that, but
`right now I'm not asking about Lantsman, so --
` A. But you are.
` Q. Sir, in paragraph 70 of your declaration,
`the reason you state in that paragraph why a person
`of ordinary skill would not combine Mozgrin with
`Lantsman is because Lantsman uses two DC power
`supplies whereas Mozgrin uses a pulsed power supply;
`correct?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: That's correct.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. So you're contending that a person of
`ordinary skill would not be able to physically
`substitute Mozgrin's pulsed power supply with
`Lantsman's two DC power supplies; correct?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: One of ordinary skill in the
`art would probably not have an incentive to -- to
`combine a -- a -- alike power supplies, but the
`question is would it perform in a -- in a way, just
`making that combination, the way the -- the -- the
`'773 patent, which would -- would perform,
`including, you know, forming a voltage pulse and
`choosing an amplitude and a rise time of the voltage
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide
`(877) 702-9580
`
`5
`
`

`
`Page 18
`pulse to perform the -- what that does according to
`the claims of the patent.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. And you're saying the reason that you
`wouldn't combine Mozgrin and Lantsman is because
`Lantsman's two DC power supplies would not perform
`in an expected manner in Mozgrin's system; correct?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: That's -- it -- it says, or
`"would not [sic] perform in an expected way in the
`pulsed power systems of Mozgrin or the claimed
`apparatus of the '773 patent."
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. So you're listing physical differences
`between Mozgrin and Lantsman for why a person would
`not be able to combine those systems; correct?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: I'm saying that the
`expectation of a person of ordinary skill in the art
`of combining them would -- would be difficult than
`just combining them.
` But, also, if one did, the -- Lantsman --
`Lantsman's continuing -- Lantsman's continuous gas
`flow is not discussed in enough detail to provide an
`incentive to combine the gas flow, and the uses
`
`Page 20
`are identifying here physical differences between
`the components of Mozgrin and Lantsman?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: I'm saying that put -- I said
`that putting it together, they wouldn't be needed to
`perform, or that you wouldn't expect them to perform
`in the claimed '773 apparatus.
` Mozgrin's -- the -- the goals of -- of
`Mozgrin were different from -- I'm sorry.
` Yes, the goals of Mozgrin and -- and
`Lantsman are -- are -- they're different, and it's
`not clear what synergy combining them would -- would
`provide.
` Somebody might want to provide it for some
`other reason, but in terms of generating a
`strongly-ionized plasma, a voltage pulse, which
`choose -- and chooses an amplitude and rise time,
`would not be one of the reasons that one would
`combine it.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Sir, Lantsman uses two DC power supplies;
`correct?
` A. But I have -- this is the fourth time I
`have asked for Lantsman.
` Q. I'm focusing on paragraph 70.
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`Page 19
`of -- of two DC power supplies would -- would be --
`would -- would be -- how do I say it -- not -- would
`not lead to -- one of the DC power supplies is to
`produce a DC plasma, and -- and Lantsman -- I'm
`sorry. And my -- and -- and it's not pulsed.
` So it's -- it is not obvious how one would
`combine those things to -- by -- to -- for a person
`of ordinary skill in the art to combine those things
`to achieve the -- the invention of the '773 patent.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. But to be clear, you're saying that one
`would not look to combine Mozgrin and Lantsman
`because you would not physically substitute the
`components of Lantsman into Mozgrin; correct?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection to form, asked and
`answered.
` THE WITNESS: However they were combined,
`it -- it is not clear that -- that it would achieve
`anything approaching the -- the claimed invention.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Right.
` But I'm -- I'm stepping back and asking:
`What are your reasons why a person wouldn't combine
`Mozgrin and Lantsman?
` And my question is: Are the reasons you
`
`Page 21
`
` Sir, in paragraph 70 you state that
`Lantsman's system uses two DC power supplies;
`correct?
` A. I -- I would like to see Lantsman to --
` Q. Are you -- are you --
` A. -- make sure that my -- that I can point it
`out to you. Yes, it uses two DC power supplies.
` Q. And Mozgrin uses a single-pulse power
`supply; correct?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Lantsman uses a pulsed DC
`power supply -- I'm sorry, you -- you said Mozgrin.
`And then, I would like to refer to Mozgrin, please.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Sir, I'll give -- give it to you if you
`want, but I'm asking about paragraph 70.
` Mozgrin uses a pulsed power supply;
`correct?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: He uses a -- he uses a pulsed
`power supply, yes.
` MR. MAIER: I've handed the witness
`Gillette 1002.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Turn to paragraph 71 now.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide
`(877) 702-9580
`
`6
`
`

`
`Page 22
` A. I just -- by the way, in the application,
`it's not the only power supply that Mozgrin uses.
`But he uses a pulsed DC power supply.
` Q. Okay. Let me know when you're at paragraph
`71.
` A. Yes, I am at 71.
` Q. You state that:
` "A system that uses a pulsed discharge
` supply unit and a square voltage pulse,
` like Mozgrin's system would operate very
` differently if it were modified to use two
` DC power supplies."
` You see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. But you don't really specify what that
`difference would be; correct?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: That's correct.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Now, turn to Figure 2 of Mozgrin.
` It's at page 402.
` A. I'm there.
` Q. Do you see the part labeled "stationary
`discharge supply unit"?
` A. Yes, I do.
`
`Page 24
`
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Turn to paragraph 75 of your declaration.
` A. I'm there.
` Q. Now, in this section you're explaining why
`a person of ordinary skill would not combine
`Kudryastev with Mozgrin; correct?
` MR. LAHAV: Do you understand the whole
`question?
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Would you like me to repeat it, sir?
` A. In a moment, please.
` That's -- now, ask your question, please.
` Q. I've asked you to refer to paragraph 75 of
`your declaration.
` A. (Witness nods head.)
` Q. You have to answer audibly.
` A. Yes. I'm sorry. Yes.
` Q. And in this section you're explaining why a
`person of ordinary skill would not combine
`Kudryastev with Mozgrin; correct?
` A. No.
` Q. Paragraph 75 does not relate to --
` A. I -- I said that the elements in the
`Kudryastev system -- the physical elements in the
`Kudryastev system is what I am talking about in
`
`Page 23
` Q. The stationary discharge supply unit of
`Mozgrin outputs a constant DC voltage; correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. So Mozgrin himself used a DC -- strike
`that.
` Mozgrin himself used a constant DC unit
`along with his power -- pulsed power supply unit;
`correct?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: That's correct.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. So Mozgrin knew how to use a DC power
`supply in his sputtering unit; correct?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Yes.
` But, you know, you asked about whether
`there was an incentive to combine Mozgrin with
`Lantsman, and there -- there's no second DC power
`supply in Mozgrin, and without any guidance about
`what it was doing or why it would be used, one
`doesn't know, you know. But it would -- where it's
`connected to or what it's used for, don't know.
` MR. MAIER: Move to strike beginning at
`"But, you know."
`//
`
`Page 25
`
`paragraph 75.
` Q. Okay. So in paragraph 75, you're talking
`about the physical elements of Kudryastev's system;
`correct?
` A. Make sure it's...
` (Witness reviewing document.)
` Yes, the configuration and physical
`elements.
` Q. And in paragraph -- and you go on through
`paragraph 76, 77, and 78 to discuss other physical
`differences between Kudryastev and Mozgrin; correct?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Yes.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. And you summarize these physical
`differences in paragraph 79; correct?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Well, in -- in -- in 78, I do
`talk about the process of Mozgrin, so -- and then in
`79, that would be included.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. So the answer is "Yes"?
` A. Well, you -- you said that the physical
`parts, and -- in the prior question.
` But 78 does say that -- you know, the
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide
`(877) 702-9580
`
`7
`
`

`
`Page 26
`
`process is different. It's -- it's different.
` Q. Well, you say it has a very different
`structure and process; right?
` A. Yes. It's -- it is different.
` Q. But you don't specify what is different
`about that process.
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Not -- not in these
`paragraphs.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. What you do specify in these paragraphs are
`physical differences between the components of
`Kudryastev and Mozgrin; correct?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: In these paragraphs.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. And you contend that the physical
`substitution of Kudryastev --
` A. Well, let me -- let me just...
` I have to refresh my memory about this
`declaration as opposed to other declarations.
` Q. Sure. Let me know when you're finished,
`and where you are.
` A. (Witness reviewing document.)
` I can't find in this declaration a specific
`
`Page 28
`
` Mozgrin doesn't have a glass tube.
` A. Mozgrin doesn't have a -- a cathode that's
`intended for sputtering. Mozgrin -- sorry,
`Kudryastev -- Kudryastev doesn't have a substrate
`holder.
` So there are many components that would go
`into a sputtering system, and...
` Q. To be clear, the reasons that you are
`saying a person of ordinary skill would not combine
`Mozgrin and Kudryastev are because a person would
`not be able to physically substitute the elements of
`Kudryastev into Mozgrin; correct?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: No.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. So what --
` A. What --
` Q. -- other than physical --
` A. -- what --
` Q. -- differences are you giving?
` A. Well, it's so different that why would one,
`you know, want to substitute something that is
`already in Mozgrin, for instance?
` Mozgrin performs what it's intended to do.
`Why wouldn't one want to take a -- a physically
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`Page 27
`discussion about the process of Kudryastev --
` Q. Okay.
` A. -- although, it -- I did discuss it in
`other...
` Q. So it's your contention that the components
`of Kudryastev are not physically interchangeable
`with those of Mozgrin; that's what you're describing
`here, correct?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Well, the structure of the
`system is substantially different than the structure
`of the '773 patent.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Well, I'm asking about -- oh, I'm sorry.
` A. Okay. So the answer about whether the --
`the specific components would -- would be there, it
`depends on, you know, what -- what the specific
`components you're talking about. And, you know,
`the -- the answer really depends on the specific
`designs.
` Q. Let's cut to the chase --
` A. Mozgrin doesn't have -- Mozgrin doesn't
`say, you know, that he has a glass tube. So this is
`the...
` Q. Understood.
`
`Page 29
`different and combine elements that Mozgrin already
`had?
` Q. So there's a lot of overlap between what
`Kudryastev discloses and Mozgrin discloses?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Depends on the level of
`generality that you're talking about, but it --
`it -- you know, they are structurally very
`different.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. You're, again, pointing to physical
`differences of components; correct?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: The physical difference and
`the process -- the processes that those physical
`differences were intended to perform.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. You don't dispute that Mozgrin expressly
`cites Kudryastev; right?
` A. No.
` Q. Now, what invention date did you use when
`performing your analyses of the '773 patent?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Well, I think that -- that --
`the 2002 filing date, as I said in my --
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide
`(877) 702-9580
`
`8
`
`

`
`Page 30
`
`Page 31
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. November 14th, 2002?
` A. Well, the -- you are talking about the '773
`patent, yeah?
` Q. Yes.
` A. So -- yeah.
` Q. Magnetron sputtering was well known before
`the alleged '773 invention; correct?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Yes.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Cathodes were well known before the alleged
`'773 invention?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Yes.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Anodes were well known before the alleged
`'773 invention?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Yes.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Generating a weakly-ionized plasma from a
`feed gas was well known before the alleged '773
`invention; correct?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
`
`Page 32
` THE WITNESS: That's one possibility, yes.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. And prior to the '773 patent, how is the
`flow of a feed gas controlled in a magnetron?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Do you want to amplify on
`that?
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Using a flow controller --
` A. Yeah.
` Q. -- to supply a continuous feed gas to a
`magnetron chamber was known before the alleged '773
`invention; right?
` A. Yes.
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Are there any benefits to continuously
`supplying feed gas to a magnetron chamber and
`sputtering?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What are those benefits?
` A. Well, I may not be able to list them all.
`I can give some examples.
` Q. Fair enough.
` A. The -- the primary benefits in a -- in a
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` THE WITNESS: Generating a -- a
`weakly-ionized plasma from a feed gas in a -- in --
`in -- as it's claimed and described in the '773
`patent was not well known --
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Sir, that wasn't my question.
` A. -- is not -- generating an ionized --
`weakly-ionized plasma from gas was well known.
` Q. Using a magnet to generate a magnetic field
`that confines electrons proximate to the target was
`well known before the alleged '773 invention;
`correct?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Correct.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Controlling the flow of a feed gas to a
`magnetron chamber was well known before the alleged
`'773 invention; correct?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Yes.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Supplying a continuous feed gas to a
`magnetron chamber was well known before the alleged
`'773 invention; correct?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
`
`Page 33
`semiconductor operating system is that -- you know,
`a semiconductor is a thin film deposition system by
`magnetron sputtering.
` The primary benefit of the feed gas being
`continuously flowed is to have -- remove to a --
`assist removal of outgassing contaminants from the
`walls and -- and structures in the system.
` Q. It's also beneficial to reactive sputtering
`processes; correct?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Yes.
` For -- that's not, you know, not a --
`that's not totally an answerable statement in -- in
`every process of reactive sputtering. There may be
`reactive sputtering processes where you -- you would
`make changes during the process, or whatever, that
`would achieve the specifics -- the -- the specific
`goals of a specific process in reactive sputtering.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. So, for example, like in your paper,
`supplying a continuous feed gas to a chamber was
`beneficial in titanium nitride applications;
`correct?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Well, I would have to review
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide
`(877) 702-9580
`
`9
`
`

`
`Page 34
`
`the paper. It's been a while.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Well, let me ask you -- let me step back
`more generally: Was it your understanding that
`supplying a continuous feed gas to a chamber is
`beneficial when sputtering with titanium nitride?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Again, it depends on what
`you're trying to do with that particular process.
` So it could be beneficial if you're trying
`to make a -- a uniform layer, you know, that -- so
`it really depends on -- on what you're trying to do
`with the process.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. What happens to the feed gas when it is
`supplied to a chamber with plasma in it?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITN