1
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`BLD SERVICES, LLC,
`Petitioner,
`v.
`LMK TECHNOLOGIES, LLC,
`Patent Owner
`Case IPR2014-00772
`Patent 8,667,992
`Case IPR2014-00770
`Patent 8,667,991
`Case IPR2014-00768
`Patent 7,975,726
`
`
`
` The videotaped deposition of NORMAN E.
`
`KAMPBELL, called by the Petitioner, taken pursuant
`to the Rules of the United States Patent and
`Trademark Office pertaining to the taking of
`depositions, taken before PEGGY CURRAN, CSR, CRR,
`RPR, CSR License No. 084-002016, a notary public
`within and for the County of DuPage and State of
`Illinois, taken at 120 North LaSalle Street, Suite
`1100, Chicago, Illinios, on Tuesday, May 5, 2015,
`commencing at the hour of 9:06 a.m.
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`BLD SERVICES, LLC - EX. 1010
`IPR2014-00770
`BLD SERVICES, LLC v. LMK TECHNOLOGIES, LLC
`
`
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`BLD SERVICES, LLC,
`Petitioner,
`v.
`LMK TECHNOLOGIES, LLC,
`Patent Owner
`Case IPR2014-00772
`Patent 8,667,992
`Case IPR2014-00770
`Patent 8,667,991
`Case IPR2014-00768
`Patent 7,975,726
`
`
`
` The videotaped deposition of NORMAN E.
`
`KAMPBELL, called by the Petitioner, taken pursuant
`to the Rules of the United States Patent and
`Trademark Office pertaining to the taking of
`depositions, taken before PEGGY CURRAN, CSR, CRR,
`RPR, CSR License No. 084-002016, a notary public
`within and for the County of DuPage and State of
`Illinois, taken at 120 North LaSalle Street, Suite
`1100, Chicago, Illinios, on Tuesday, May 5, 2015,
`commencing at the hour of 9:06 a.m.
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`BLD SERVICES, LLC - EX. 1010
`IPR2014-00770
`BLD SERVICES, LLC v. LMK TECHNOLOGIES, LLC
`
`
`
`2
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`APPEARANCES:
`Mr. Scott A. Chambers
`Mr. Matthew D. Zapadka
` Porzio Bromberg & Newman P.C.
`1200 New Hampshire Avenue, NW
`Suite 710
`Washington, DC 20036-6802
`sachambers@pbnlaw.com
`mdzapadka@pbnlaw.com
`on behalf of the Petitioner;
`Mr. Jeffrey D. Harty
`Nyemaster Goode
`700 Walnut Street
`Suite 1600
`DesMoines, Iowa 50309-3899
`5t15.283.8038
`jeff.harty@nyemaster.com
`and
`Mr. Christopher L. McKee
`Banner & Witcoff, Ltd.
`1100 13th Street NW
`Suite 1200
`Washingotn, D.C. 20005
`202.824.3000
`cmckee@bannerwitcoff.com
` on behalf of the Patent Owner.
`
`Also Present:
`Mr. David A. Fletcher
`Mr. Milo Yelesiyevich - A1 Legal Video
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`I N D E X
`
`WITNESS
`NORMAN E. KAMPBELL
`EXAMINATION
` By Mr. Chambers
`EXAMINATION (continued)
` By Mr. Chambers
`EXHIBITS
`No. 1001 - patent '992 B2
`No. 1001 - patent '991 B2
`No. 1001 - patent '726 B2
`No. 1002-- Patent '118 B2
`No. 1003 - Patent '597
`No. 1004 - De Neef Installation
` Instructions
`No. 1005 - SWELLSEAL Hydrophilic
` Waterstop Solutions
`No. 1006 - De Neef Pressure Resistance
` of SWELLSEAL Sealant WA
`No. 1016 - EPA/600/R-11/017
`No. 1037 - patent '426 B1
`No. 1038 - Insignia Hydrophilic
` Sealing Solutions
`No. 2004 - De Neef Case History:
` LDH Energy
`No. 2005 - Declaration of Norman E.
` Kampbell '991
`No. 2005 - Declaration of Norman E.
` Kampbell '992
`
`PAGE
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` 3
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`FOR ID
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`THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now on the record.
`My name is Milo Yelesiyevich and I am working in
`association with A-1 Legal Video in Chicago,
`Illinois.
`
`This deposition is taking place on
`May 5, 2015, and the time is now 9:06 a.m. The
`location of this deposition is 120 North LaSalle
`Street in Chicago, Illinois.
`This deposition is being taken in the
`matter of BLD Services versus LMK Technologies,
`LLC.
`
`The deponent's name is Norman E.
`
`Kampbell.
`
`Will counsel please identify themselves
`for the record.
`MR. CHAMBERS: Scott Chambers, from Porzio,
`Bromberg & Newman for BLD.
`MR. HARTY: Jeff Harty from Nyemaster Goode in
`Des Moines for the patent owner LMK Technologies,
`LLC.
`MR. MC KEE: Christopher McKee with Banner &
`Witcoff for the patent owner LMK Technologies.
`MR. ZAPADKA: Matt Zapadka from Porzio,
`Bromberg & Newman for BLD Services, the petitioner.
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`MR. FLETSCHER: I am not an attorney, but it's
`Dave Fletcher.
`THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The court reporter today is
`Peggy Curran who will now swear in the witness and
`we may proceed.
`
`(Witness duly sworn.)
`NORMAN E. KAMPBELL
`called as a witness herein, having been first duly
`sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
`EXAMINATION
`By Mr. Chambers:
`Q
`Good morning, Mr. Kampbell.
`A
`Good morning.
`Q
`You have been called to give testimony
`under 37 C.F.R. 42.53 in your capacity as an expert
`in this case. Are you aware of that?
`A
`Yes.
`Q
`Okay. Now, I will ask you a series of
`questions and then you will have answers for me I
`hope. And your counsel may object to those
`questions, but if they object, you still need to
`answer the questions unless they have -- articulate
`some reason such as a privilege so that you don't.
`Now, if you don't understand any of my
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`questions, can we agree that you will let me know
`that and then I can just rephrase?
`A
`Yes.
`Q
`If at any point you would like to
`clarify some answer that you had before, then, you
`know, please let me know and we will let you
`clarify it. Is that your understanding or will
`that be your understanding?
`A
`Yes.
`Q
`Okay. Have you met with attorneys for
`this deposition?
`A
`Yes.
`Q
`When did you meet with them?
`A
`Yesterday.
`Q
`For how long?
`A
`Four or five hours roughly.
`Q
`Okay. Now, sometimes when you are
`answering, you might think of a document that would
`help you. And if you've got the document in mind,
`you might just ask for it, and we might have it and
`we could, you know, provide that document for you.
`If that happens, will you let me know that you need
`that document or that you would like to see it?
`A
`Yes.
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`Okay. Now, we are going to stop for
`Q
`breaks on the way. If you feel that you need a
`break, just let me know and we will have a break.
`You still have to answer the question that's before
`you, but you know, this is not -- it's not a test
`of how long we can sit here.
`Now, it's my understanding that you have
`been a witness or a deponent in other cases; is
`that correct?
`A
`Yes.
`Q
`Now, the Patent Office has some special
`rules on depositions. Did the attorneys that you
`met with yesterday or any other attorneys talk to
`you about those rules?
`A
`I don't recall that they did
`specifically.
`Q
`The Patent Office has a rule that once
`the deposition starts, you can't talk to the
`attorneys about -- talk to the other side's
`attorneys about any of the issues that are before
`the deposition or any questions or any answers that
`you have given until the end of my examination.
`Is that your understanding? Because
`it's not always the understanding for some
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`depositions.
`A
`Yes, it is.
`Q
`Okay. Is there any reason that you can
`think of that you couldn't answer the questions
`fully and honestly today?
`A
`No.
`Q
`Could you spell your full name for the
`court reporter.
`A
`Yes. Norman, which is N-o-r-m-a-n. My
`middle name is Edward, E-d-w-a-r-d. And the last
`name is Kampbell, K-a-m-p-b-e-l-l.
`Q
`Now, what is your current address?
`What would you prefer to be called?
`Ed.
`A
`Okay. Ed, what would you -- what's your
`Q
`current address, Ed?
`A
`Hilliard, Ohio, H-i-l-l-i-a-r-d.
`Q
`Is that around Columbus?
`A
`Yes.
`Q
`How far out is that from Columbus?
`A
`It's a suburb.
`Q
`Okay. From the main city, north, south,
`east or west?
`A
`It's northwest.
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`Okay. What was your date of birth?
`Q
`1/6/1953.
`A
`Okay. Are you married?
`Q
`I am.
`A
`Any kids?
`Q
`Two.
`A
`Do they still live with you?
`Q
`No.
`A
`Okay. How many times have you been
`Q
`deposed before?
`A
`I don't keep track of the numbers, so I
`can't tell you. Numerous times.
`Q
`Do you think it was more than a dozen?
`A
`Probably not more than a dozen.
`Q
`Okay. In what capacity were you
`deposed?
`Usually as an expert witness.
`A
`Okay. When you weren't an expert
`Q
`witness, what capacity?
`A
`I think it was -- because it was a
`federal case. And I think it was with respect to
`just a knowledgeable person about the project. It
`can be expect, I guess they didn't distinguish
`between engineering expert and expert.
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`It was more of you were a fact witness
`
`Q
`in those?
`Yes.
`A
`Any depositions where you were the
`Q
`subject of the lawsuit?
`A
`No.
`Q
`Have you ever testified in court?
`A
`Yes.
`Q
`On behalf of whom?
`A
`I'm not sure I understand the
`question.
`Q
`expert?
`Yes.
`A
`Who were you an expert for?
`Q
`The defendant.
`A
`Can you name any of those defendants?
`Q
`Sure.
`A
`Would you please name some of those --
`Q
`would you please name as many as you can think
`of?
`
`When you testified in court, were you an
`
`Okay. In one action, Steven Hertz.
`A
`There was a second gentleman, but I don't recall
`his name.
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`Okay. Any other ones that you were
`Q
`testifying on behalf of?
`A
`The other one is too far back for my
`memory to recall. It was a case involving
`engineering technical matters.
`Q
`Any patent cases that you have testified
`
`in?
`
`No.
`A
`Okay. When you were testifying in these
`Q
`other cases as a technical expert, what were the
`cases about, other than some aspect of technology I
`assume?
`There has been cases with respect to
`A
`design issues that were at question. There has
`been questions of the quality of the finished
`product and the remedies for that. There has been
`questions about the engineering design approach
`that was taken and whether there were other
`alternatives.
`Q
`When you say design issue, was that
`about -- was that a case dealing with some
`proprietary design?
`A
`No.
`Q
`Was it simply whether or not the
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`contractor had followed the design that he had said
`that he would in the contract?
`A
`I don't know if I would say it that
`way.
`How would you say it?
`Q
`Okay. The contractor had alleged that
`A
`the engineer had designed it in a way that he
`couldn't meet expectations of the finished
`product.
`The engineer had designed it in a way
`Q
`that he couldn't meet expectations, is that what
`you are saying?
`A
`That's what he alleged.
`Q
`Oh, I see. Did it turn out that he was
`able to or that he wasn't able to?
`A
`He was able to.
`Q
`And you were on the side of that
`particular engineer?
`A
`I was.
`Q
`Have you ever had a situation where a
`court did not adopt your viewpoint?
`A
`I can say I have not.
`Q
`So who did you speak with about this
`deposition?
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`This deposition?
`A
`(Nodding head.)
`Q
`The two attorneys on my right,
`A
`Christopher McKee and Jeff Harty.
`Q
`Anyone else?
`A
`No, sir.
`Q
`What did you discuss?
`MR. HARTY: I am going to object on the basis
`that we are -- privilege. We are also here
`representing the witness, as well as LMK. You can
`ask him what he did to prepare for his deposition,
`but I think the substance of the communications are
`off limits.
`By Mr. Chambers:
`Q
`Did you see any documents that were not
`part of the material that you reviewed to do your
`expert report?
`A
`Yes.
`Q
`What documents were those?
`A
`The declaration of Larry Kiest.
`Q
`Was anything said about the declaration
`of Larry Kiest or was it simply given to you?
`A
`I was allowed to look at it because it
`has pictures in it that would, you know, reinforce,
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`you know, what I had said in my deposition.
`Q
`Did anyone say anything to you
`regarding -- was anything said that was not in that
`particular declaration from Larry Kiest?
`A
`No, sir.
`Q
`Did anyone talk to you about how you
`would answer questions?
`A
`No, sir.
`Q
`Have you spoken with anyone else about
`the case?
`I have not.
`A
`Other than that document from Larry
`Q
`Kiest, did you see any other documents that you
`were not provided for earlier?
`A
`I did not.
`Q
`Did the attorneys ask you -- by the
`attorneys I mean the LMK attorneys -- did they ask
`you for any documents?
`A
`They did.
`Q
`What documents did they ask for?
`A
`They asked for four of my past papers
`that I had written.
`Q
`Which four were those?
`A
`One had to do with how to handle
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`styrenated resins in CIPP. s-t-y-r-e-n-a-t-e-d.
`Another one was on the -- a review of
`the impact -- of those styrenated resins in a, you
`know, environment.
`The third one was a secure document that
`I prepared for a previous employer, which was the
`knowhow manual for the Inliner Technologies.
`And the fourth one was -- I'm trying to
`recall. I can't recall off the top of my head
`right now. It's the ones that were listed in what
`you requested.
`Q
`Did you provide those documents with
`your attorneys?
`A
`I could not find the one on the interim
`study.
`Was that the fourth one that you
`Q
`described in your list?
`A
`No. No. I think it was the second one.
`Q
`Okay.
`A
`Second one.
`Q
`Did you provide them with the other
`ones?
`A
`Q
`
`I did.
`So you provided them with all except the
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`I did not.
`Can you explain how your declaration was
`
`interim study?
`A
`That is correct.
`Q
`When did you provide them with those?
`A
`Friday.
`Q
`Why did they ask for those?
`A
`Because they said that the Board had
`requested that you see those.
`Q
`Did you bring any of those documents
`with you?
`A
`Q
`prepared?
`Yes. You know, basically I worked with
`A
`the attorneys and I gave them my words about what I
`saw in the questions that were before us and made
`those interpretations.
`Q
`Did you write it?
`A
`I did not.
`Q
`When was the first time that you saw the
`document prepared? By "document" I mean the
`declaration that you were to sign.
`A
`I don't remember the specific date, but
`I believe it was very close to right after I had
`given them the information.
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`I'm sorry, what information?
`Q
`You know, the way I answered the
`A
`questions.
`Q
`Oh, I see. Okay. When they gave you
`this declaration, did you read it?
`A
`I did.
`Q
`Then did you sign it?
`A
`I did.
`Q
`Did you make any changes?
`A
`I did not.
`Q
`So did you provide the attorneys with
`the Inliner Technologies proprietary knowhow manual
`Version 1.0?
`A
`I did.
`Q
`On Friday?
`A
`Yes.
`Q
`Okay. Do you have another copy of
`that?
`You mean a paper copy? No.
`A
`Or electronic.
`Q
`Obviously if I presented it, I had an
`A
`electronic copy.
`Q
`I didn't know if maybe that was your
`only copy and you gave it to them.
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`No.
`Do you think you could provide that copy
`
`A
`Q
`to us?
`I advised them that I preferred not to
`A
`do that because it is a proprietary document, and
`your expert on the other end, I didn't feel
`comfortable with it going into his hands.
`Q
`Did you ask the owner of that document
`if you could provide it?
`A
`I did not.
`Q
`Who would you have asked if you would
`have wanted to ask that?
`A
`Denise McClelland.
`Q
`Who is Denise?
`A
`She is the vice president with Layne
`Inliner. Layne, L-a-y-n-e, Inliner.
`Q
`Are you familiar with a Mr., Mr. Crook
`over there?
`A
`Who?
`Q
`Is it Steve Crook?
`MR. ZAPADKA: Crook.
`THE WITNESS: Crook. I am not.
`By Mr. Chambers:
`Q
`Okay. Is there anything in the Inliner
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`manual related to lateral repair?
`A
`There is not.
`Q
`What's your degree in?
`A
`Civil engineering.
`Q
`Okay. Where is it from?
`A
`University of Arkansas.
`Q
`When did you get that degree?
`A
`1978.
`Q
`19 --
`A
`1978.
`Q
`Did you have a break between high school
`and going to college?
`A
`I didn't have a break between high
`school and college, but I did have a break in the
`middle of college where I put my wife through
`nursing school.
`Q
`Okay. After graduating, what did you
`
`do?
`
`I became a consulting engineer.
`A
`Who for?
`Q
`McClelland Consulting Engineers.
`A
`McClelland and that's with a d on the end.
`M-c-C-l-e-l-l-a-n-d.
`Q
`When did you become a consultant for
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`McClelland and when did you cease being a
`consultant for McClelland?
`A
`I became a consultant for McClelland on
`January 1, 1978. And I ceased to be I think it was
`October 31, 2003.
`Q
`What did you consult about?
`A
`I designed buried pipes, I designed
`water treatment plants and sewer treatment plants
`and roadways.
`Q
`After 2003, what did you do?
`A
`I worked for the Little Rock Wastewater
`Utility.
`Q
`A
`believe.
`When you left Little Rock Treatment,
`Q
`where did you go then?
`A
`To Insituform Technologies.
`MS. REPORTER: To?
`THE WITNESS: Insituform,
`I-n-s-i-t-u-f-o-r-m.
`MS. REPORTER: One more time. I-n?
`THE WITNESS: s-i-t-u-f-o-r-m.
`I think it was actually TexArk. I
`
`How long were you there?
`I was there approximately 42 months I
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`correct myself, I was with a sub of the main
`company, which was TexArk, T-e-x-a-r-k.
`By Mr. Chambers:
`Q
`When you were in Little Rock with the
`waste treatment unit, what was your title there?
`A
`Director of engineering.
`Q
`Then you went to a subdivision of
`Insitutech?
`A
`Insituform.
`Q
`Insituform. What was your title when
`you were there?
`A
`Technical representative.
`Q
`What does a technical representative
`
`do?
`
`Okay. Well, in the context of that
`A
`company, and at that point in time, it was someone
`who was technically capable of explaining the
`process and also managing the contracts and the
`construction crews that came through.
`Q
`Sales, is that part of it?
`A
`Sales would be part.
`Q
`Responding to RFPs?
`A
`Yes.
`Q
`How many people reported to you in
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`Insituform?
`A
`No one. I was by myself.
`Q
`So how long were you in Insituform?
`A
`Three years.
`Q
`So that brings us up to about what,
`2000?
`It should bring you up to about 1988.
`A
`Oh, okay. I see. So the consulting
`Q
`firm, you continued with the consulting firm in
`your spare time when you had these other jobs?
`A
`I don't understand the question.
`Q
`I guess I thought that you had said
`that, when we talked about the consulting firms,
`that you had started January 1, 1978, and that you
`ceased in that firm in 2003?
`A
`1983.
`Q
`Oh, '83. Thank you. It was all
`becoming very complicated for me. I understand
`that.
`You can let me know if you can't hear me
`A
`because I have a new set of hearing aids, and my
`voice booms in my head, so sometimes I become a
`soft speaker, and I'm not known for that.
`Q
`Unless she says there is a problem,
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`there won't be a problem, but I've got the same
`issue. It comes with the age.
`A
`Okay.
`Q
`So after Insitutech or Insituform, you
`left that, I think you said in 1988?
`A
`Right.
`Q
`Then where did you go?
`A
`Advanced Drainage Systems.
`Q
`What was your title or titles there at
`Advanced Drainage Systems?
`A
`I do not recall the precise title I had,
`but I'm sure it's in my CV.
`Q
`Okay. Do you remember what you did
`there?
`Yes.
`A
`Okay. What -- same thing that you were
`Q
`doing in Insituform?
`A
`Correct.
`Q
`Okay. When did you crease to be at
`Advanced Drainage Systems?
`A
`In 1998.
`Q
`So you were there for ten years?
`A
`Yes.
`Q
`In 1998, where did you go?
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`I went to work for CSR Hydroconduit.
`A
`What was your title at CSR Hydro?
`Q
`General manager.
`A
`Does that mean you didn't have to go out
`Q
`in the field anymore?
`A
`No.
`Q
`Oh. When did you crease to be at CSR?
`A
`In 2001.
`Q
`What did you do after CSR Hydro?
`A
`I went to Inliner Technologies.
`Q
`What were you there?
`A
`Vice president.
`Q
`How long were you there?
`A
`Three years.
`Q
`Now, when you were at Advanced Drainage
`Systems, did you have more than one position?
`A
`Yes.
`Q
`What were the two positions then I
`guess?
`Well, my initial one was a technical
`A
`marketing representative. And then when I was
`moved to corporate headquarters, my job was manager
`of applications engineering.
`Q
`Did you do design work when you were
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`Okay. What did they do?
`They made corrugated polyethylene
`
`there?
`Can you be more specific about design?
`A
`Design how you would do a CIPP liner or
`Q
`something like that.
`A
`Advanced Drainage Systems didn't do
`CIPP.
`Q
`A
`pipe.
`For drainage?
`Q
`Yes.
`A
`Okay. How would you join that pipe to
`Q
`each other or to junctions?
`A
`There was more than one method.
`Q
`What were the methods?
`A
`One method was using a split coupler,
`and the other method was using an integral bell
`that was molded.
`Q
`Did they fit so that they didn't leak or
`did you have to use something to make sure that
`they didn't leak?
`A
`The pipes that weren't perforated fit so
`they didn't leak. And we did have to use a gasket
`for that.
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`What was the gasket made out of?
`Q
`Neoprene rubber.
`A
`Did you ever use any grouts?
`Q
`No.
`A
`Did you ever use any hydrophilic
`Q
`materials?
`A
`Do you mean while at Advanced Drainage
`Systems?
`Yes. Yes. I am sorry.
`Q
`I want to make sure the questions were
`A
`along that line.
`Again, I'm sorry, what was the last one,
`did I use any hydrophilic materials, was that your
`last question?
`Q
`Did you use any hydrophilic materials,
`yes.
`No.
`A
`Were you -- did you have any other
`Q
`positions there at Advanced Drainage Systems?
`A
`No, I didn't have any other titles.
`Q
`Liability engineer, were you ever a
`liability engineer?
`A
`That was -- I did that as a subset of my
`applications engineering.
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`Okay. Where were you the liability
`
`Q
`engineer?
`With respect to the claims that were
`A
`being made, I worked with the people.
`Q
`But which of your --
`A
`Applications manager.
`Q
`Okay. So you were at Inliner Tech, did
`you say for three years; is that right?
`A
`Correct.
`Q
`Then after Inliner Tech, where did you
`
`go?
`
`I became my own consultant,
`A
`Rehabilitation Resource Solutions.
`Q
`What's your title there?
`A
`President.
`Q
`How many people does Rehabilitation
`Resource Systems -- is that correct?
`A
`Solutions.
`Q
`Solutions. Okay. How many people does
`it employ?
`A
`I have no direct employees.
`Q
`Who hires you?
`A
`Various entities, owners, engineering
`firms, manufacturers.
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`Do you do design in that work?
`Yes.
`Would this be primarily for CIPP?
`Primarily.
`What else -- what is it when it's not
`
`Q
`A
`Q
`A
`Q
`CIPP?
`I have done work with new pipe
`A
`installations. And of course the forensic
`engineering work that I've done.
`Q
`Shall we just call that RRS?
`A
`Yes, you may.
`Q
`Thank you. In RRS, you don't have any
`direct employees I think you said. Do you have any
`indirect employees?
`A
`Yes, I hire contractors to work with
`
`me.
`
`Have you ever been hired by Larry
`
`Q
`Kiest?
`I have.
`A
`Have you ever hired Larry Kiest?
`Q
`I have not.
`A
`What has Larry Kiest hired you for?
`Q
`He is -- in one of the instances he
`A
`hired me to help develop a new technology that is
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`actually still currently under development.
`On other occasions he's asked me to
`interpret how an engineer would view a particular
`specification.
`Q
`Does he hire you for LMK work then or is
`it personal work for him or which is it?
`A
`It's always LMK.
`Q
`When did you first become aware of LMK
`or Larry Kiest?
`A
`1999.
`Q
`That was when you were at Advanced
`Drainage Systems?
`A
`No. That was when I was with CSR
`Hydroconduit.
`Q
`And did he hire you at that point?
`A
`He did not.
`Q
`Did you hire him at that point?
`A
`He did not. Or I did not.
`Q
`Did you ever hire LMK when you were at
`Inliner Technologies?
`A
`I did not.
`Q
`Did they ever hire you when you were at
`Inliner Technologies?
`A
`They did not.
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`So when did they first hire you I
`Q
`guess -- they first hired you when you were part of
`RRS, correct?
`A
`Yes.
`Q
`When would that have been?
`A
`I don't recall the exact date. It would
`have been several years into the company.
`Q
`Would it have been before 2010?
`A
`Yes.
`Q
`Would it have been before two
`thousand -- 2015? I'm trying to do the math here.
`A
`Well, obviously it would be before 2015.
`Q
`I'm sorry. 2005?
`A
`I can't recall the specifics of my
`bookkeeping to tell you exactly when, but I know
`that, you know, between 2004 and 2007, I had two
`predominantly exclusive clients that were taking up
`almost all my time.
`Q
`Who were they?
`A
`They were Applied Felts and the National
`Liner Group.
`Q
`Okay. So how many different jobs has
`LMK or Larry Kiest hired you for in that period of,
`oh, some time after 2005 up until the present?
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`I couldn't tell you just right off the
`A
`top of my head.
`Q
`More than ten?
`A
`I would say no.
`Q
`More than five?
`A
`Maybe.
`Q
`When you do contract work like that, do
`you work by the hour or do you do it by the job?
`A
`I typically do by the hour, unless the
`project is going to be long enough that I can
`estimate what the client's outcome is and then give
`them a lump sum.
`Q
`Did you ever contact LMK or use that
`technology as a subcontractor while at CSR?
`A
`I did.
`Q
`Since I made the mistake of saying that
`as two questions. Did you contact LMK? You must
`have.
`I did not. I'm sorry. I did not
`A
`contact LMK.
`Q
`But you used his technology?
`A
`I did.
`Q
`Okay. So for 2014, how much was paid by
`LMK to your company or to you?
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`I do not recall.
`A
`For the tax season, do you have a
`Q
`general idea?
`A
`I do not. As a sole proprietor, you
`know, I have to do my own bookkeeping, and it's a
`pain, and I do it fast, and I don't do all those
`profit and loss.
`Q
`Is it more than 10 percent of your
`business?
`MR. HARTY: Objection to form, speculation.
`THE WITNESS: I couldn't say.
`By Mr. Chambers:
`Q
`Is it more than 50 percent?
`MR. HARTY: Objection to form, calls for
`speculation.
`THE WITNESS: It's definitely not.
`By Mr. Chambers:
`Q
`Do you remember any amounts that you
`have been paid by LMK or Larry Kiest over the
`period that you have been employed by them?
`A
`Most of the projects that you might be
`alluding to would be simple one- and two-hour
`projects. Maybe somewhere around 500 to $1,000
`tops.
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`Is it a continual stream of business or
`Q
`does he have a limited number of opportunities to
`use you?
`The way you worded the question, I'm not
`A
`sure how it should be answered.
`Q
`Would you like it repeated?
`A
`No. That's the way you wanted it
`stated, I'll give an answer.
`But he chooses when I might be of help
`because of my expertise, so it's only limited
`inasmuch as if an opportunity arises that he needs
`my assistance and he chooses to use me.
`Q
`Does he ever refer you to other
`companies?
`A
`He has not.
`Q
`What's your work address at RRS?
`A
`4862 Sarasota Court.
`Q
`I assume Dublin?
`A
`No. Hilliard.
`Q
`Hilliard. Sorry.
`How much does your company gross per
`
`year?
`MR. HARTY: Objection; relevance.
`THE WITNESS: 250,000.
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`By Mr. Chambers:
`Q
`We are going to be talking about three
`patents today. I have gotten into the habit of
`calling them the '991, the '992, and the '726
`patent, just looking at the last three digits. I
`assume since you wrote a declaration, are you
`familiar with the '991, the '992, and the '726?
`A
`Yes.
`Q
`What are the differences between those
`patents?
`MR. HARTY: Objection to form.
`MR. CHAMBERS: Strike that.
`By Mr. Chambers:
`Q
`Do you know if there are any differences
`to those patents, now that you have studied them?
`A
`Well, obviously if there are three
`patent numbers, there are differences. But I could
`see to the untrained eye that it would appear like
`they are all the same.
`Q
`Do you see differences?
`A
`I do.
`Q
`What are the differences?
`A
`With respect to which?
`Q
`Why don't we talk about first the
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`35
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`The'991.
`How does it differ from the '992 and the
`
`Say that again.
`Could you read that back to him.
`(The record was read.)
`THE WITNESS: Do you have copies of the three
`documents that I could look at?
`By Mr. Chambers:
`Q
`I think we do.
`A
`Good.
`(Documents were marked as Exhibit
`No. 1001 in '726, '991, '992
`patent for identification.)
`By Mr. Chambers:
`Q
`These are already marked with exhibit
`numbers. But the exhibit numbers go to the
`particular inter parte review that's been started
`or initiated by the Patent Office. So the '991,
`which I will hand you, is Exhibit 1001 in that
`particular IPR, and the '992 is Exhibit 1001 in the
`'992 IPR. And the '726 is Exhibit 1001 in the '726
`IPR. It's convenient, but the specification should
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`'991?
`A
`Q
`'726?
`A
`Q
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`be pretty similar.
`A
`I agree. (Examining documents.)
`Q
`So do you have a general
`understanding?
`A
`Yes.
`Q
`What are the differences? Can you tell
`me what the difference between '991 and the other
`two, just in general terms?
`A
`Well, the '726 is where the bringing of
`a waterstop to the juncture was introduced.
`Q
`What do you mean by -- I got an idea
`about what you mean by waterstop. But when you say
`juncture, that's going to lateral lines and then
`mainlines?
`A
`Correct.
`Q
`What juncture?
`A
`It's the juncture between the two, the
`lateral line coming into the mainline.
`Q
`Not the juncture between the T-liner and
`the mainline?
`A
`That's not a juncture in my engineering
`opinion.
`Q
`A
`
`What's that?
`That would just be a termination
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`point.
`Okay. So the '726 is the one that talks
`Q
`about -- what did you say again?
`Could you tell me the difference between
`the '726? I am having trouble understanding what
`the livenote says?
`A
`Okay. What I said was the '726, put the
`gasket or waterstop at the juncture of the lateral
`pipe and the mainline portion of the lateral
`lining.
`And the '991?
`Q
`The '991 is a continuous, a continuous
`A
`evolution where -- we are now talking about the
`paste and how it would be disposed of at that
`juncture.
`Can the waterstop be a paste?
`Q
`Yes, if applied properly.
`A
`Okay. So the '991 talks about using a
`Q
`paste, is that a fair reading of your
`understanding?
`A
`(Nodding head.)
`Q
`Then what's the '992 about? How does
`the '992 differ from the '991 and the '726?
`A
`It's again discussing the paste at the
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`juncture.
`In your backg
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