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`Page 1
` IN THE UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`_____________________________
`THE GILLETTE COMPANY, TAIWAN
`SEMICONDUCTOR MANUFACTURING Patent No. 6,896,773
`COMPANY, LTD., TSMC NORTH IPR2014-00726
`AMERICA CORP. FUJITSU
`SEMICONDUCTOR LIMITED Patent No. 6,896,773
`and FUJITSU SEMICONDUCTOR IPR2014-00580
`AMERICA, INC.,
` Petitioners,
` v.
`ZOND, LLC,
` Patent Owner.
`__________________________
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION of RICHARD DeVITO
` Boston, Massachusetts
` January 20, 2015
`
`Reported by:
`Dana Welch, CSR, RPR, CRR, CBC, CCP
`Job #89514
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`Page 2
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` January 20, 2015
` 9:21 a.m.
`
` Videotaped deposition of RICHARD DeVITO,
`held at the offices of WilmerHale, 60 State Street,
`Boston, Massachusetts, before Dana Welch, Certified
`Shorthand Reporter, Registered Professional
`Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter, and Notary
`Public of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
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`APPEARANCES:
`For Zond, LLC:
`RADULESCU
`The Empire State Building
`350 Fifth Avenue
`New York, NY 10118
`BY: TIGRAN VARDANIAN, ESQ.
`
`For The Gillette Company:
`WILMERHALE
`60 State Street
`Boston, MA 02109
`BY: LARISSA PARK, ESQ.
` COSMIN MAIER, ESQ.
` YUNG-HOON HA, ESQ.
`
`--- appearances continue ---
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`APPEARANCES (continued)
`For Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company,
`Ltd. and TSMC North America Corporation:
`HAYNES and BOONE (By telephone)
`2323 Victory Avenue
`Dallas, TX 75219
`BY: DAVID McCOMBS, ESQ.
`
`and
`
`DUANE MORRIS
`100 High Street
`Boston, MA 02110
`BY: ANTHONY FITZPATRICK, ESQ.
`
`Also Present: Jody Urbati, Videographer
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` DeVITO
` P R O C E E D I N G S
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the start of
`tape labeled number one of the videotaped
`deposition of Richard DeVito in the matter of the
`Gillette Company, et al., versus Zond, LLC, in the
`United States Patent and Trademark Office before
`the Patent Trial and Appeal Board.
` This deposition is being held at
`WilmerHale in Boston, Massachusetts, on
`January 20th, 2015, at approximately 9:21 a.m. My
`name is Jody Urbati, and I am the legal
`videographer from TSG Reporting, Inc.,
`headquartered at 747 Third Avenue, New York, New
`York. The court reporter is Dana Welch, also in
`association with TSG Reporting.
` Counsel, please introduce yourselves,
`state whom you represent, and then the witness
`shall be sworn.
` MR. VARDANIAN: Tigran Vardanian with
`Radulescu LLP on behalf of Zond, LLC, the patent
`owner.
` MR. MAIER: Cosmin Maier of WilmerHale on
`behalf of the petitioner, The Gillette Company, and
`with me are Sam Ha and Larissa Park, also of
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` DeVITO
`WilmerHale.
` MR. FITZPATRICK: Anthony Fitzpatrick from
`Duane Morris LPP on behalf Taiwan Semiconductor
`Manufacturing Company Limited and TSMC North
`America.
` RICHARD DeVITO, sworn
` COURT REPORTER: Do you want the people on
`the phone to state their appearances?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Sure.
` MS. PARK: David, can you state your
`appearance for the record, please.
` MR. McCOMBS: Yes. This is David McCombs
`with Haynes and Boone representing TSMC, TSMC North
`America and Fujitsu.
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. VARDANIAN:
` Q. Good morning, Mr. DeVito.
` A. Good morning.
` Q. I'll skip through the preliminaries, as
`we've done this with you previously.
` What is "sputtering"?
` A. "Sputtering" is the -- is the deposition
`of a material from a target by the -- and caused by
`the incoming ions impinging on the target. Using
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` DeVITO
`momentum transfer, the target atoms are removed
`from the target and transferred from the substrate.
`This happens usually in a plasma-based system where
`ions are attracted to a negatively biased --
`positive ions are attracted to a negatively biased
`target. Those ions impinge, cause momentum
`transfer, heat, and they dislodge those target
`atoms, and they go off to a substrate.
` Q. So it sounded like you were describing
`what the deposition process is. Is sputtering only
`limited to deposition?
` A. I mean, you could -- you could have
`sputtering of -- sputtering effects that -- that
`they would -- you know, it doesn't have to be
`specifically for a deposition process, but you can
`get sputtering effects, you know, in a plasma-based
`type process.
` Q. So you stated sputtering is the deposition
`of a material from a target. I'm asking whether
`that statement is correct --
` MR. MAIER: Object to form.
` Q. -- with respect to --
` A. With the -- it's --
` Q. Let me rephrase.
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` The statement that you made appears to be
`limited to deposition; is that statement correct?
` MR. MAIER: Object to form.
` A. I mean, I was explaining it in the context
`of this patent, but -- just let me think for a
`second.
` So I was just -- I was explaining the
`physical mechanism. Is that -- so you wanted more
`than the physical mechanism of sputtering? You
`wanted some general definition or -- in terms of
`what it is, or I guess I don't understand now
`looking back. I was just explaining the physical
`mechanism of sputtering to cause a deposition
`process, which is, I -- which is, I think, the
`patent is, but maybe I don't understand what you
`were trying to get at.
` Q. All right. So I appreciate that you were
`explaining what sputtering is in the context of the
`patent at issue here. And the patent at issue,
`just to be clear, is the 6,896,773 patent, which we
`can refer to as '773 patent, if that's okay with
`you.
` A. That's fine, yes.
` Q. So you were explaining what sputtering is
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`in the context of the '773 patent. And your
`statement is -- was that in the -- you know, in the
`context of the '773 patent, sputtering is the
`deposition of a material from a target. And all
`I'm trying to understand is whether it is your
`opinion that sputtering is limited to deposition --
` MR. MAIER: Objection.
` Q. -- of a material from a target?
` MR. MAIER: Objection, form.
` A. I mean, sputtering does cause the ejection
`of material. Whether you want it to form a film or
`not, is -- you know, it depends on what you want to
`do with it. I mean...
` Q. So your statement was too limited, right?
` A. I think so.
` Q. Would you like to rephrase what -- or
`would you like to restate what in your opinion,
`"sputtering" is --
` MR. MAIER: Object to form.
` Q. -- in the context of the '773 patent?
` A. Well, I think I -- I stated in the context
`of the '773 patent. I thought you wanted -- you
`wanted a more broad explanation of what
`"sputtering" was, so...
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` Q. Right. Let's get that clear, then. You
`are saying that in the context of the '773 patent,
`sputtering is limited to the deposition; is that
`what your testimony is?
` MR. MAIER: Object to form.
` A. I believe that we're talking about
`deposition of thin-films using a hybrid sputtering
`process, yes, so...
` Q. So it's limited to sputtering?
` MR. MAIER: Object to form.
` MR. VARDANIAN: I'm sorry. Strike that.
` Q. Sputtering is limited to deposition is
`what you're saying, in the context of the '773
`patent?
` MR. MAIER: Objection.
` A. I just want to think for a moment to make
`sure I get this right.
` I guess I would have to say yes, we're
`talking about sputtering as a deposition process in
`this patent. But sputtering is a very -- it is a
`broad topic that I -- you know, right now we're
`talking about in terms of deposition, so...
` Q. So let me hand to you what's -- this is
`actually not marked.
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` DeVITO
` MR. VARDANIAN: So we'll mark it as DeVito
`'773 Patent Exhibit 1.
` (Exhibit 1, U.S. Patent 6,896,773, marked
`for identification.)
` Q. This is the '773 patent we were talking
`about earlier, right?
` A. Uh-huh.
` Q. Let's turn to claim 1, which is on column
`21.
` A. Yes.
` Q. Can you point me to a requirement of a
`deposition in claim 1?
` MR. MAIER: Object to form, calls for a
`legal conclusion.
` A. You mean explicitly or --
` Q. Well, let's start -- let's start with
`explicitly.
` A. Yeah. Well --
` MR. MAIER: Same objection.
` A. Well, I believe it teaches that there's a
`deposition process going on here, right? So we
`talk about a sputtering source that embodies all
`the elements that, you know, a deposition source
`would have. And he also talks about in the very
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` DeVITO
`last sentence having enough sputtering energy
`coming in that not only are you getting sputtering,
`but you're causing the ejection of sputtering
`particles, i.e., increasing the sputtering yield at
`the surface of the target.
` So that's going off somewhere. It's going
`to be deposited somewhere.
` Q. So you're saying that -- just point me to
`where you believe in claim 1 there is a requirement
`that there needs to be deposition.
` MR. MAIER: Same objection.
` A. I don't know what you mean by the term
`"requirement." But, I mean, the whole patent is
`about devising a device that increases the
`sputtering yield. And this is one step in terms of
`doing that. And one of the -- one of the
`conclusions of this claim is that they're getting
`an increase in sputtering yield, hence sputtering
`rate, by doing various things to the sputtering
`cathode to this target.
` Q. It sounds like you were confused by the
`question, so let me explain.
` When I say requirement -- so I think what
`you're saying that this claim can be directed to
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` DeVITO
`deposition. I don't think that's the issue.
` What I'm trying to understand is you're
`limiting sputtering to deposition. And you're
`saying that that is derived from the '773 patent.
`I'm trying to understand where you see that as a
`necessary requirement. You see what I'm saying?
` MR. MAIER: Objection to form.
` A. Where I see it as a necessary requirement?
`I guess the only way I can answer that is this
`whole patent and all these claims, which are the
`inventions of the patent, point to an apex where
`you want to get -- you want to get a higher
`sputtering rate, a higher sputtering yield. So I
`would have to say that all these claims together --
`I mean, I don't know about the individual ones, but
`all these claims together certainly point towards
`getting that higher sputtering yield one way or the
`other.
` I don't know if that answers your
`question.
` Q. So it doesn't quite answer my question. I
`think that I -- I understand that you're reading
`this as -- or reading the claims, at least claim 1
`that we're talking about, as indicating that there
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` DeVITO
`could be deposition as a result of sputtering.
`What I'm trying to understand is where do you see
`in claim 1 -- let's just talk about claim 1 --
` A. Okay.
` Q. -- for now, okay?
` Where do you see in claim 1 a requirement,
`meaning a necessary element that deposition must
`occur?
` MR. MAIER: Object to form.
` A. I mean, all I can do is point to the last
`sentence in claim 1, an amplitude and a rise time
`of the pulse is chosen such that the strong ionized
`plasma -- excuse me -- "an amplitude and a rise
`time of the voltage pulse being chosen to increase
`a density of ions in the strongly-ionized plasma
`enough to generate sufficient thermal energy in the
`sputtering target to cause a sputtering yield to be
`non-linearly related to a temperature of the
`sputtering target." That's deposition.
` Q. So, in your opinion, what you just read
`requires that there be a deposition in this claim 1
`of the '773 patent; is that what you're saying?
` MR. MAIER: Object to form.
` A. Requires? I mean, it will -- it will
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` DeVITO
`happen as a result of these steps. I guess
`that's -- if that's a requirement, then --
` Q. Deposition will happen necessarily as a
`result of these steps; that's what you're saying?
` MR. MAIER: Objection to form.
` A. Yes. According to the claim, yes.
` Q. Is etching the same thing as deposition?
` A. It's sort of -- it's a removal of
`material. You know, you remove material in
`sputtering. So in -- it's sort of the -- sort of
`the reverse, right? You're removing things to
`delineate what's underneath or to clean things, but
`usually it happens in a slightly different plasma
`system -- slightly different plasma parameters.
`But it's the same physical mechanisms. We're
`talking about physical etching.
` Q. Okay. So just so I'm clear, is it your
`opinion that deposition is the same thing as
`etching?
` MR. MAIER: Objection to form.
` A. Well, as I said, they happen at different
`plasma regimes, so there is a -- there's an analogy
`between them, but the energies are different, the
`plasma is slightly different.
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` DeVITO
` Q. So they're not the same.
` MR. MAIER: Objection to form.
` A. They're not exactly the same; they're
`analogous.
` Q. Okay. Could claim 1 of the '773 patent be
`directed to etching?
` MR. MAIER: Object to form, calls for a
`legal conclusion.
` A. Let me just read the entire...
` (Perusing document).
` No, I don't think so.
` Q. Why not?
` A. Well, first of all, we're talking --
`there's -- there's a couple of reasons. One is
`we're talking about the actual sputter cathode
`itself, so that doesn't lend -- I mean, we're
`not -- I mean, usually when I think about etching,
`I think about etching a substrate. So -- and also
`we're talking about intensely high plasma densities
`here that are going to have very, very high sputter
`rates. So these are the types of plasma conditions
`that I would apply to a cathode to effect
`deposition, not to effect etching.
` Q. So let's break that up. You mentioned two
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`different things. First, I think you mentioned
`that the claim, though, you know, describes a
`cathode and doesn't talk about the substrate. So
`in an etching system, in an etching regime, you
`would still have a cathode target, correct?
` A. You can, yes.
` Q. So the fact that this is talking about the
`cathode does not preclude this from being directed
`to etching, right?
` A. Yes, but it's -- no. But it's talking
`about applying all this power to the actual
`magnetron, right, to get a very high removal rate.
`So we're talking about pre-ionizing. We're talking
`about pulsing. So the whole point of all that, you
`know, of all these high density plasmas and pulsing
`at cathodes is to effect a very high deposition
`rate. We know this from Mozgrin and other
`references.
` Q. So you're saying that because the claim
`goes to an intense or high density of the plasma,
`it follows from that that the claim goes
`to deposition and not to etching; that's what
`you're saying?
` MR. MAIER: Object to form.
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` A. Just the way I read the claim and the body
`of the patent the way it's written, that's my
`conclusion based on that. I'm not reading it in
`and of itself, but I'm taking into account the
`entire body of the patent as well.
` Q. Right. But let's -- so using, you know,
`your knowledge with respect to this, right, and
`understanding, keeping in mind your opinions that,
`you know, in your declarations with respect to the
`'773 patent, is it true that the deposition regime
`requires higher density plasma than the etching
`regime?
` A. Is it true that the deposition regime
`requires a high density plasma?
` Q. Higher.
` A. A higher density plasma than the -- what
`regime?
` Q. An etching regime.
` A. The etching regime.
` Well, I think if I could have Mozgrin, I
`can point out where that's not the case. I can
`show you in Mozgrin.
` Q. Well, that's one of the reasons why I'm
`asking, and I'm actually puzzled by what you were
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` DeVITO
`saying about claim 1. So if you could just answer
`my question.
` A. So, you know, in Mozgrin, he has very high
`density plasma. But, as I said, the plasma
`density regions -- the plasma regions are
`different. The density may be higher, but the
`voltage is very, very low. And that's actually
`explained in Mozgrin. I can point that out to you
`when I show you that in Mozgrin.
` Q. So earlier you were saying that it was
`the, you know, higher density of the plasma that
`you are seeing in claim 1 that's pointing you to a
`deposition as opposed to etching. I think now
`we've established that the higher -- you know,
`etching can actually have a higher density plasma
`than the deposition, right?
` MR. MAIER: Object to form.
` A. Well, I mean, there are other things going
`on here, too. So the way they get that high
`density plasma is by applying a high-voltage pulse,
`right? So there's a voltage happening here.
`There's a high density plasma. So all those things
`are going to contribute to deposition.
` Q. So let's just think of an etching regime
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`for a second.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Are you saying that in order to get to an
`etching regime, you don't need to pulse?
` MR. MAIER: Object to form.
` A. So, no. If you -- if we can look at
`Mozgrin, you know, Mozgrin talks about his high
`density plasma reactor. And depending on where he
`is in his, you know, pulse rates, his repetition
`rates, his rise times, he can get a high density
`plasma that does deposition. Okay. So it has a
`certain current and voltage characteristic there.
`And if he does some other things, he can get into a
`high density plasma region which will do -- will
`mainly affect etching. So it has a higher -- a
`slightly higher density or a similar density but
`has a much, much lower voltage.
` Q. Okay. And it would be actually, the way
`Mozgrin is describing it, as one continuous
`process, right? There is a pre-ionization step,
`there is a deposition step, and there is an etching
`step, right?
` A. No.
` MR. MAIER: Objection, form.
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` DeVITO
` Q. No?
` A. No. He can choose -- I believe there's
`four regions. He can choose any one of those four
`regions independent of each other.
` Q. Right. So he can have a pre-ionization
`step and just go to the etching step?
` A. I'd have to read Mozgrin to tell you.
` Q. You've read Mozgrin many times, right?
` MR. MAIER: Object to form.
` A. Yeah, but I don't have all the data off
`the top of my head at the same time.
` Q. So you can't tell me without looking at
`Mozgrin?
` A. No, I cannot.
` Q. So since we're on the topic, where we're
`looking at this limitation in claim 1 that you were
`reading into the record, specifically "an amplitude
`and rise time of the voltage pulse being chosen to
`increase a density of ions in the strongly-ionized
`plasma enough to generate sufficient thermal energy
`in the sputtering target to cause a sputtering
`yield to be non-linearly related to a temperature
`of the sputtering target," when we're talking about
`the '775 patent in the previous deposition, we
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` DeVITO
`established that this, you know, we've been dealing
`with some claims like this where, you know, there's
`this language of something to be chosen to be --
`some parameters to be chosen to achieve a
`particular goal. Do you remember that?
` A. Not really, but sort of, yeah.
` Q. All right. So you agree with me that, you
`know, this language requires that some specific
`parameters be chosen to achieve a particular result
`that's actually specified in the claim, right?
` MR. MAIER: Objection to form.
` A. Where it says "an amplitude and voltage
`pulse must be chosen," is that what you're saying?
` Q. Yes.
` A. Yes.
` Q. All right. So the claim requires that,
`you know, some specific parameters with respect
`to the rise time of the voltage pulse be chosen to
`achieve a very specific goal, which is described,
`you know, later in the claim, agreed?
` A. That's what it says.
` MR. MAIER: Object to form.
` Q. So --
` MR. MAIER: Hold on. Let me -- give me a
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` DeVITO
`chance to object.
` THE WITNESS: Sorry.
` Q. Is it your opinion that the Mozgrin
`reference discloses this process of picking
`specific parameters to achieve the specific goal
`that's described in claim 1?
` A. If I could have my declaration, I can read
`what our opinion is on that.
` Q. Okay. I'll hand you the declaration in a
`minute. But sitting here today, without looking at
`the declaration, can you tell me what your opinion
`is, if there is one?
` A. I do have an opinion, but it's in my
`declaration. So I'd like to read it from my
`declaration, at least to jog my memory so I don't
`get it wrong.
` Q. So let me hand to you what has been
`previously marked as Gillette 1005.
` So this is one of the -- one of your
`declarations that you were referring to just now.
` A. Correct.
` Q. Let me just give you the second one so
`it's in front of you, and we don't have to -- so
`I'll hand to you what has been previously marked as
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` DeVITO
`Gillette 1105.
` So the 1005 is the declaration that deals
`with claim 1, right?
` A. Correct.
` (Perusing document).
` Q. So while you're looking, so that you have
`my question in mind, and I know you're going to ask
`me, the question that's pending is, is it your
`opinion that the Mozgrin reference discloses the
`picking of specific parameters to achieve the
`specific goal that's described in claim 1?
` A. Okay.
` Q. Do you understand that question?
` A. I do.
` Q. Okay.
` A. (Perusing document).
` So in order to get this effect --
` MR. MAIER: Can you hold on? Can we get
`the question on the record, just because I want to
`object, and the last one on the record is, "Do you
`understand."
` MR. VARDANIAN: I'll accommodate the
`objection.
` Q. The question that's pending is, is it your
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` DeVITO
`opinion that the Mozgrin reference discloses the
`picking of specific parameters to achieve the
`specific goal that's described in claim 1?
` MR. MAIER: Object to form.
` A. And the specific goal you're referring to
`is the generation of sufficient thermal energy in
`the sputtering target to cause a sputtering yield
`to be non-linearly related to a temperature?
` Q. Well, it's broader than that, right? It's
`everything after the word "chosen" in claim 1.
` MR. MAIER: Object to form.
` A. Well, Mozgrin certainly has the ability to
`choose his amplitude and his rise times. He talks
`about in 114 of the declaration, paragraph.
` Q. Paragraph 114?
` A. He talks about the power supply was able
`to deliver voltage and current pulses with rise
`times and leading edges of 5 to 60 microseconds.
`And he talks about his -- so he -- so he certainly
`had that ability. And we know that he's choosing
`his voltage pulses and his rise times to achieve
`high density plasmas. He talks about in region 2
`of his plasma being on the order of 10 to the 13,
`which is a high density plasma.
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` DeVITO
` Now, to create this other effect, which
`again, you said, comes after, which is the
`non-linear rise, Mozgrin looks to Fortov to get
`that effect. So Fortov is a reference that talks
`about how to achieve a non-linear increase in yield
`as a function of temperature.
` So Fortov gives the recipe of getting T.
`And, you know, one skilled in the art would know
`that using the apparatus of Mozgrin by adjusting
`the power density, by adjusting the peak height,
`the rise time, one can achieve extremely high
`plasma density in order to get the heat at the
`surface required to achieve Fortov's non-linear
`result.
` And they're also both using -- you know,
`the rationale here for the combination is they're
`both using copper targets. I mean, Mozgrin uses
`many targets where he's using copper. Fortov is
`using copper. And they're both aimed at increasing
`the sputtering yield, which would increase the
`sputter rate, which is a good thing for a lot of
`production processes.
` Q. Okay. So you said quite a few different
`things. So let me see if I can break that up a
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` DeVITO
`little bit.
` So first you said Mozgrin looks to Fortov.
`Does the Mozgrin reference mention Fortov?
` A. I'd have to see the back of the Mozgrin
`reference.
` Q. Okay.
` A. But can I take a look at it?
` Q. Yeah. I'm going to hand to you what we'll
`mark as Exhibit Gillette 1002 -- what was
`previously marked as Gillette 1002.
` A. (Perusing document).
` No, I don't see it here in references.
` Q. So Mozgrin does not look to Fortov
`anywhere in the reference, right?
` A. Well, one skilled in the art would combine
`Mozgrin with Fortov, so...
` Q. But the statement that Mozgrin looks to
`Fortov that you made earlier is incorrect, right?
` MR. MAIER: Object to form,
`mischaracterizes his testimony.
` A. Could you repeat my statement?
` Q. Sure. Your statement, and I'm reading
`this from the record, "Mozgrin looks to Fortov to
`get that effect."
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` DeVITO
` A. I'm sorry. I meant one skilled in the art
`would look to combine Mozgrin and Fortov to get
`that effect.
` Q. Okay. So let's also go back to -- you
`mentioned that Mozgrin is disclosing a certain
`range of rise time, right, that's indicated in
`paragraph 114 of your declaration?
` A. Correct.
` Q. So can you tell me looking at this, and
`looking at the Mozgrin reference, what would be the
`rise time amplitude --
` MR. VARDANIAN: Strike that.
` Q. What would be the amplitude and rise time
`of voltage pulse out of the range that's provided
`by the Mozgrin reference that would increase the
`density of ions in the strongly-ionized plasma
`enough to generate sufficient thermal energy in the
`sputtering target to cause the sputtering yields to
`be non-linearly related to a temperature of the
`sputtering curves?
` MR. MAIER: Objection to form.
` A. You want to know the exact values?
` Q. Absolutely.
` A. I haven't done that calculation.
`
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` DeVITO
` Q. Why haven't you?
` A. Well, I mean, I don't think I have to. I
`mean, the -- I mean, people know -- people that are
`skilled in the art know that sputtering causes heat
`to be generated. Even in a normal sputtering
`process, one has to cool the sputtering target.
` And in these -- and in these instances,
`you're creating tremendous power at the target by
`pulsing. I think Mozgrin talks about 20 to
`80 microns a minute, which is a very, very high
`rate. So it's generating tremendous power;
`therefore, it has to be generating tremendous heat.
` Q. Are you saying that every time a plasma
`generation system generates tremendous power and as
`a result tremendous heat?
` A. Just in the pulse part. I'm talking about
`the pulse part.
` Q. So you're saying every time there's a
`pulse that generates tremendous power, that results
`in tremendous heat --
` A. It -- it can over the --
` Q. Just --
` A. Sorry.
` Q. Just let me -- let me finish the question.
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` DeVITO
` A. Sorry.
` Q. Are you saying that every time there is a
`pulse in the plasma generation system, that
`generates tremendous power that results in
`tremendous heat, the limitation that I read into
`the record, to increase the density of ions in the
`strongly-ionized plasma enough to generate
`sufficient thermal energy in the sputtering target
`to cause a sputtering yield to be nonlinearly
`related to a temperature of the sputtering target
`to be met?
` MR. MAIER: Objection to form.
` A. I'm saying there's some range within
`Mozgrin, you know, because he talks about his rep
`rate, he talks about his rise time, he talks about
`all these different characteristics that he can
`control the power to, and certainly over some of
`that range, you know, he can meet some of this
`limitation.
` Q. How do you know that?
` A. Because I think a lot of these ranges
`overlap with the ranges in the '773 patent. So if
`the '773 patent can show it, certainly this can
`show it.
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` DeVITO
` Q. So what's the range? So the range that
`you cite to in paragraph 114 of your declaration,
`which is the Gillette 1005, in this entire range, 5
`to 60, is it anything within that range, any pulse
`within that range would result in, you know,
`meeting the limitation that we've been reading into
`the record from claim 1?
` A. I don't know the --
` MR. MAIER: Hold on. Give me a chance to
`object.
` Objection to form.
` A. I don't know the answer to that question.
`As I said, I haven't gone through any of the
`calculations to do that. But I know that given
`this
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