· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·
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`Compass Bank vs. Intellectual Ventures
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`Videotaped Deposition of
`FREDERIC CHONG
`March 03, 2015
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·
`Compass Bank, et al. Exhibit 1010
`Compass Bank, et al. v. Intellectual Ventures II LLC
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·
`IPR2014-00724
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`Compass Bank vs. Intellectual Ventures
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`Videotaped Deposition of
`FREDERIC CHONG
`March 03, 2015
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·
`Compass Bank, et al. Exhibit 1010
`Compass Bank, et al. v. Intellectual Ventures II LLC
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`IPR2014-00724
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`·1· · · · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · · · · · BEFORE THE TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·3
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`·4
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · · COMPASS BANK,
`· · · · · · · · · · COMMERCE BANCSHARES, INC., and
`·6· · · · · · · · · ·FIRST NATIONAL BANK OF OMAHA
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Petitioners,
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · v.
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`·9· · · · · · · · · ·INTELLECTUAL VENTURES II LLC
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`10· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner
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`11
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`12
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · Case IPR2014-00724
`13· · · · · · · · · · U.S. Patent No. 5,745,574
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`14
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`15
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`16· · · · · ·VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF FREDERIC T. CHONG
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`17· · · · · · · · · · Santa Barbara, California
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`18· · · · · · · · · · · · · March 3, 2015
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22· ·Reported by:
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`23· ·Louise K. Mizota
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`24· ·CSR No. 2818
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`25· ·Job No.:· 10015052
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`Page 1
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`Compass Bank, et al. Exhibit 1010
`Compass Bank, et al. v. Intellectual Ventures II LLC
`IPR2014-00724
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`·1· · · · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · · · · · BEFORE THE TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·3
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`·4
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · · COMPASS BANK,
`· · · · · · · · · · COMMERCE BANCSHARES, INC., and
`·6· · · · · · · · · ·FIRST NATIONAL BANK OF OMAHA
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Petitioners,
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · v.
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`·9· · · · · · · · · ·INTELLECTUAL VENTURES II LLC
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`10· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner
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`11
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`12
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · Case IPR2014-00724
`13· · · · · · · · · · U.S. Patent No. 5,745,574
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`14
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`16
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`19
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`20· · · · · Video-Recorded Deposition of FREDERIC T. CHONG,
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`21· ·taken on behalf of Petitioners, at 351 Paseo Nuevo,
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`22· ·Second Floor, Presidio Board Room, Santa Barbara,
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`23· ·California, beginning at 8:53 a.m., and ending at 5:34
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`24· ·p.m., Tuesday, March 3, 2015, before Louise K. Mizota,
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`25· ·CSR #2818.
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`Page 2
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`Compass Bank, et al. Exhibit 1010
`Compass Bank, et al. v. Intellectual Ventures II LLC
`IPR2014-00724
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`·1· ·APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
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`·2
`· · ·For Petitioners:
`·3
`· · · · · · · · · ·JONES DAY
`·4· · · · · · · · ·BY:· GEOFFREY K. GAVIN, ESQ.
`· · · · · · · · · ·1420 Peachtree Street, N.E.
`·5· · · · · · · · ·Suite 800
`· · · · · · · · · ·Atlanta, Georgia 30309-3053
`·6· · · · · · · · ·(404) 581-3939
`· · · · · · · · · ·ggavin@jonesday.com
`·7
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`·8
`· · ·For Patent Owner and the Witness:
`·9
`· · · · · · · · · ·KNOBBE MARTENS
`10· · · · · · · · ·BY:· BRIDGET O'LEARY SMITH, ESQ.
`· · · · · · · · · ·2040 Main Street
`11· · · · · · · · ·14th Floor
`· · · · · · · · · ·Irvine, California 92614
`12· · · · · · · · ·(949)760-0404
`· · · · · · · · · ·bridget.smith@kmob.com
`13
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`14· ·Also Present:
`· · · · · · · · · ·Kyle G. Gottuso
`15· · · · · · · · ·James Hietala
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`16
`· · ·Videographer:
`17· · · · · · · · ·Christian Martinez
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`Compass Bank, et al. Exhibit 1010
`Compass Bank, et al. v. Intellectual Ventures II LLC
`IPR2014-00724
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`Frederic ChongFrederic Chong
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · INDEX
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`·2· ·WITNESS· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · EXAMINATION
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`·3· ·FREDERIC T. CHONG
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`·4· · · · · · · · · · · BY MR. GAVIN· · · · · · · · · · · ·6
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · BY MS. SMITH· · · · · · · · · · ·109
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`·6
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`·7
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`·8
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXHIBITS
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`10· ·NUMBER· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
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`11· ·Exhibit 1002· United States Patent Number· · · · · · 12
`· · · · · · · · · ·5,745,574, April 28, 1998, Muftic,
`12· · · · · · · · ·41 pages
`· · ·Exhibit 1004· Proceedings, Symposium on Network· · · 41
`13· · · · · · · · ·and Distributed System Security,
`· · · · · · · · · ·20 pages
`14· ·Exhibit 1005· Public Key Infrastructure Study· · · · 63
`· · · · · · · · · ·Final Report, April 1994, 193 pages
`15· ·Exhibit 1006· Privacy Enhancement for Internet· · · ·83
`· · · · · · · · · ·Electronic Mail:· Part IV:· Key
`16· · · · · · · · ·Certification and Related Services,
`· · · · · · · · · ·9 pages
`17· ·Exhibit 2012· Declaration of Frederic T. Chong,· · · 12
`· · · · · · · · · ·1/20/15, 47 pages
`18· ·Exhibit 2013· Curriculum Vitae of Frederic T.· · · · 33
`· · · · · · · · · ·Chong, 18 pages
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`Compass Bank, et al. Exhibit 1010
`Compass Bank, et al. v. Intellectual Ventures II LLC
`IPR2014-00724
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Santa Barbara, California
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · March 3, 2015
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`·3· · · · · · · · · · · · · 8:53 A.M.
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`·4
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`·5· · · · · · THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· Good morning.· Time on the
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`00:00:02
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`·6· ·record is 8:53 A.M.· Today's date is Tuesday, March 3,
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`00:00:04
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`·7· ·2015.· My name is Christian Martinez, a certified legal
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`00:00:11
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`·8· ·specialist of Aptus Court Reporting.· The court reporter
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`00:00:16
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`·9· ·today is Louise Mizota of Aptus Court Reporting, located
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`00:00:20
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`10· ·at 600 West Broadway, Suite 300, San Diego, California,
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`00:00:24
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`11· ·92101.
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`12· · · · · · This begins the video-recorded deposition of
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`00:00:30
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`13· ·Frederic Chong testifying in the matter of Compass Bank
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`00:00:35
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`14· ·versus Intellectual Ventures.· This case is pending in
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`00:00:39
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`15· ·the United States Patent and Trademark Office before the
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`00:00:42
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`16· ·Patent Trial and Appeal Board.· The case number is
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`00:00:46
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`17· ·IPR2014-00724, taken at Work Zones, located at 351 Paseo
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`00:00:49
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`18· ·Nuevo, Second Floor, Santa Barbara, California.
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`00:00:58
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`19· · · · · · The video and audio recording will take place
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`00:01:02
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`20· ·at all times during this deposition unless all counsel
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`00:01:03
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`21· ·agree to go off the record.· The beginning and end of
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`22· ·each video recording will be announced.
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`23· · · · · · Will counsel please identify yourselves and
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`http://www.yeslaw.net/help
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`24· ·state whom you represent.
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`25· · · · · · MR. GAVIN:· Geoffrey Gavin with Jones Day for
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`Page 5
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`Compass Bank, et al. Exhibit 1010
`Compass Bank, et al. v. Intellectual Ventures II LLC
`IPR2014-00724
`Page 5
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`Compass Bank vs. Intellectual VenturesCompass Bank vs. Intellectual Ventures
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`·1· ·the Petitioners, Compass Bank, Commerce Bancshares and
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`00:01:18
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`·2· ·First National Bank of Omaha.
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`00:01:23
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`·3· · · · · · MS. SMITH:· Bridget Smith for the witness and
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`00:01:26
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`·4· ·patent owner Intellectual Ventures.
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`·5· · · · · · THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· Also present?
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`·6· · · · · · MR. GOTTUSO:· Kyle Gottuso, Commerce Bank.
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`·7· · · · · · MR. HIETALA:· James Hietala from Intellectual
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`·8· ·Ventures.
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`·9· · · · · · THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· Thank you.
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`10· · · · · · Will the court reporter please swear in the
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`11· ·witness.
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`12
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`13· · · · · · · · · · · FREDERIC T. CHONG
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`14· · · · · · Having been sworn/affirmed, was examined and
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`15· ·testified as follows:
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`16
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`17· · · · · · THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· You may proceed.
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`18
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`19· · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION
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`20· ·BY MR. GAVIN:
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`21· · · ·Q.· ·Good morning, Dr. Chong.· How are you?
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`22· · · ·A.· ·Good.
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`23· · · ·Q.· ·You've been deposed before?
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`24· · · ·A.· ·No.
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`25· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So I'm sure your counsel explained to
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`Page 6
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`Compass Bank, et al. Exhibit 1010
`Compass Bank, et al. v. Intellectual Ventures II LLC
`IPR2014-00724
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`·1· ·you the way this goes, but just for the record, I'll ask
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`00:02:00
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`·2· ·questions, you answer questions, your counsel may object
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`·3· ·from time to time in between end of my question and
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`·4· ·beginning of your answer.
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`·5· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`·6· · · ·Q.· ·Is there any reason you can't testify
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`·7· ·truthfully and accurately today?
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`·8· · · ·A.· ·No.
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`·9· · · ·Q.· ·Are you on any kind of medication?
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`10· · · ·A.· ·I am not.
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`11· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And during the course of today I'll
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`12· ·generally refer to Intellectual Ventures as I.V.· You
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`13· ·understand that?
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`14· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`15· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· When were you first contacted about this
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`16· ·matter?
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`17· · · ·A.· ·In October.
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`18· · · ·Q.· ·Who contacted you?
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`19· · · ·A.· ·Catherine Lee of Knobbe Marten.
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`20· · · ·Q.· ·When did you agree to the engagement with I.V.?
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`21· · · ·A.· ·I think it was in October or November.· Not
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`22· ·exactly sure when -- it sort of was a dialogue.
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`23· · · ·Q.· ·Did you spend any time analyzing the patent at
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`24· ·issue or the prior art before agreeing to the
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`25· ·engagement?
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`Compass Bank, et al. Exhibit 1010
`Compass Bank, et al. v. Intellectual Ventures II LLC
`IPR2014-00724
`Page 7
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`Compass Bank vs. Intellectual VenturesCompass Bank vs. Intellectual Ventures
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`·1· · · ·A.· ·I skimmed the patent before agreeing.
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`·2· · · ·Q.· ·Have you ever served as an expert witness in
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`·3· ·any patent matters before this one?
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`·4· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`·5· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· How many?
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`·6· · · ·A.· ·Three.· Three cases.
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`·7· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Did you prepare reports in each of those
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`·8· ·cases?
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`·9· · · ·A.· ·I did not.
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`10· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Did you prepare reports in any of those
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`11· ·cases?
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`12· · · ·A.· ·No.
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`13· · · ·Q.· ·Have you ever served as an expert witness in
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`14· ·any other kind of litigation other than patent
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`15· ·litigation?
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`16· · · ·A.· ·No.
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`17· · · ·Q.· ·And you're being paid $400 an hour for your
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`18· ·time spent on this matter.· Correct?
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`19· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`20· · · ·Q.· ·How much time thus far have you spent on this
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`21· ·matter?· Do you know?
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`22· · · ·A.· ·Probably about 40 or 50 hours.
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`23· · · ·Q.· ·Is $400 an hour your normal consulting rate for
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`Compass Bank, et al. v. Intellectual Ventures II LLC
`IPR2014-00724
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`24· ·other kinds of work?
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`25· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`Compass Bank vs. Intellectual VenturesCompass Bank vs. Intellectual Ventures
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`·1· · · ·Q.· ·How much of that 40 to 50 hours did you spend
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`·2· ·on actually preparing your declaration?
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`·3· · · ·A.· ·Probably about 20 hours.· It's more if you
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`·4· ·count sort of the related reading and thinking about it.
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`·5· · · ·Q.· ·Have you ever declined an expert engagement
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`·6· ·that a party offered to you in a patent matter?
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`·7· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`·8· · · ·Q.· ·How many times?
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`·9· · · ·A.· ·Probably three or four times.
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`10· · · ·Q.· ·What were the reasons you declined those
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`11· ·engagements?
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`12· · · ·A.· ·It typically didn't fit into my schedule.
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`13· · · ·Q.· ·Can you generally explain the process of how
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`14· ·you drafted your declaration?
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`15· · · ·A.· ·Yes.· So I read the relevant prior art and the
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`16· ·patent, and then I discussed the sort of general issues
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`17· ·with lawyers at Knobbe Marten.· And after, I think,
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`18· ·maybe three or four discussions, sort of an outline was
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`19· ·created and drafted and then reiterated over the
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`20· ·document over the space of a couple weeks.
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`21· · · ·Q.· ·Who prepared the first draft of the
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`22· ·declaration?
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`23· · · ·A.· ·That would be a team at the -- at Knobbe
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`24· ·Marten, based upon our discussion.
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`25· · · ·Q.· ·Had you ever worked before with Knobbe?
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`IPR2014-00724
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`·1· · · ·A.· ·No.
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`·2· · · ·Q.· ·Have you ever worked with I.V. before this
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`·3· ·matter?
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`·4· · · ·A.· ·No.
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`·5· · · ·Q.· ·How much time did you spend preparing for your
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`·6· ·deposition today?
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`·7· · · ·A.· ·I spent a few hours on Sunday reading over my
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`·8· ·declaration, and I spent a few hours here yesterday with
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`·9· ·James and Bridget.
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`10· · · ·Q.· ·When I say "PKI" do you know what I mean?
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`11· · · ·A.· ·Yes.· I -- I feel I know that it refers, for
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`12· ·example, to one of the reports in the case.
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`13· · · ·Q.· ·Well, more generally, what's a PKI?
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`14· · · ·A.· ·It stands for public key infrastructure.
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`15· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And so if you and I say "PKI" throughout
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`16· ·the day, sometimes shorthand, you'll understand that I'm
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`17· ·talking generally about public key infrastructure?
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`18· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`19· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· In December 1995 had you had experience
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`20· ·working with PKIs?
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`21· · · ·A.· ·No.
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`22· · · ·Q.· ·When was your first experience working with
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`23· ·PKIs?
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`24· · · ·A.· ·I mean, I was -- I would say that I became more
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`25· ·involved in the field of computer security in about
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`·1· ·2003, and at that time I became aware of PKIs.
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`·2· · · ·Q.· ·What was your technical area of focus before
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`·3· ·2003?
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`·4· · · ·A.· ·Generally, computer architecture.· Yeah.
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`·5· · · ·Q.· ·And that's true for the time that you were
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`·6· ·studying for your Ph.D. until about 2003?
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`·7· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`·8· · · ·Q.· ·And remind me.· When did you get your master's
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`·9· ·degree?
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`10· · · ·A.· ·1992.
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`11· · · ·Q.· ·And you got your Ph.D. in '96?
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`12· · · ·A.· ·That's right.
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`13· · · ·Q.· ·Why did you turn your focus more towards
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`14· ·computer security in 2003?
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`15· · · ·A.· ·I -- at the time, I was a professor at UC
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`16· ·Davis.· UC Davis is very well known for its research in
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`17· ·computer security, many of their faculty there.· And in
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`18· ·fact, it was largely one of my Ph.D. students who wanted
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`19· ·to work in this area.· And so over time my group and
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`20· ·focus turned to that area.
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`21· · · ·Q.· ·What was the name of the Ph.D. student?
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`22· · · ·A.· ·Jed Crandall.
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`23· · · ·Q.· ·Where is Mr. Crandall now?
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`24· · · ·A.· ·He's a professor at the University of New
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`25· ·Mexico.
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`·1· · · ·Q.· ·Let me give you, Dr. Chong, what's already been
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`00:11:04
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`·2· ·marked as Exhibit 2012.
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`·3· · · ·A.· ·Thank you.
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`·4· · · ·Q.· ·Can you identify what this document is for the
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`·5· ·record?
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`·6· · · ·A.· ·This appears to be my declaration.
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`·7· · · ·Q.· ·I'm also going to give you a copy of what's
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`·8· ·been marked as Exhibit 1002.· Can you identify that
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`·9· ·document for the record, please?
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`10· · · ·A.· ·Yeah.· It appears to be the -- a copy of the
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`11· ·'574 patent.
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`12· · · ·Q.· ·And on page 5 of the declaration, in paragraphs
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`13· ·10 and 11 you talk about what the relevant field is and
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`14· ·the skill level of a person of ordinary skill in the
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`15· ·art.
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`16· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`17· · · ·Q.· ·Do you see that?
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`18· · · · · · How did you come up with your definition for
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`19· ·what the person of ordinary skill in the art is?
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`20· · · ·A.· ·Well, it's reasonable to have sort of a basic
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`21· ·degree and some amount of specific training.
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`22· · · ·Q.· ·Does your definition generally agree with the
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`23· ·definition from Petitioner's expert, Dr. Naccache?
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`24· · · ·A.· ·Yes, I believe so.
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`25· · · ·Q.· ·In your prior engagement on patent matters do
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`·1· ·you have any experience with offering expert opinions on
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`·2· ·claim construction?
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`·3· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`·4· · · ·Q.· ·How many times before this matter have you
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`·5· ·offered expert opinions on claim construction?
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`·6· · · ·A.· ·Three.
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`·7· · · ·Q.· ·Did you offer those opinions in any reports?
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`·8· · · ·A.· ·No.
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`·9· · · ·Q.· ·And you were never deposed about your opinions.
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`10· ·Correct?
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`11· · · ·A.· ·That's right.
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`12· · · ·Q.· ·So you just shared those opinions with counsel?
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`13· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`14· · · ·Q.· ·On pages 6 through 9 of your declaration you
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`15· ·offer a handful of opinions on claim construction.
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`16· ·Correct?
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`17· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`18· · · ·Q.· ·How did you decide that the specific terms you
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`19· ·identify needed to be construed?
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`20· · · ·A.· ·They were important to the -- the meaning of
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`21· ·the patent and the -- and to the issues discussed in the
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`22· ·declaration.
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`23· · · ·Q.· ·Did counsel tell you they need to be construed?
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`24· · · ·A.· ·No.
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`25· · · ·Q.· ·So the construction of these terms was
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`·1· ·something you suggested?
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`·2· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`·3· · · ·Q.· ·Did you look at the file history of the patent
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`·4· ·in determining the appropriate claim constructions?
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`·5· · · ·A.· ·I did look at the file history.
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`·6· · · ·Q.· ·Did the file history influence your claim
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`·7· ·constructions?
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`·8· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`·9· · · ·Q.· ·In what ways?
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`10· · · ·A.· ·Nothing specific.
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`11· · · ·Q.· ·Why does the term "process" need to be
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`12· ·construed?
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`13· · · ·A.· ·"Process" is an important difference between
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`14· ·the -- it is important in the difference between the
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`15· ·patent and the prior art.
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`16· · · ·Q.· ·How did you come up with your construction for
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`17· ·"process"?
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`18· · · ·A.· ·I studied the patent, and taking into account
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`19· ·the context at the time provided by the exhibit
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`20· ·documents.
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`21· · · ·Q.· ·When you say "exhibit documents," what
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`22· ·documents do you mean?
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`23· · · ·A.· ·The Kapidzic document and the PKI document.
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`24· · · ·Q.· ·When the word "process" appears in the claims
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`25· ·at issue, claims 18 through 31, the phrase is actually
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`·1· ·always "computer process."· Correct?
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`·2· · · · · · MS. SMITH:· Oh.
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`·3· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· That's fine.
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`·4· · · · · · MS. SMITH:· I'm sorry.
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`·5· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Turning for me.
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`·6· · · · · · MS. SMITH:· Here it is.
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`·7· · · · · · MR. GAVIN:· She's trying to be helpful.
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`·8· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· 18 through 21, you said.· Right?
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`·9· · · ·Q.· ·BY MR. GAIN:· 18 through 31.
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`10· · · ·A.· ·31.· Yeah.
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`11· · · · · · As best as I can recall and can search by hand,
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`12· ·I believe that is true.
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`13· · · ·Q.· ·Why, then, isolate the word "process" in your
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`14· ·construction?· Why not offer a construction for the
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`15· ·phrase "computer process"?
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`16· · · · · · MS. SMITH:· Form.
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`17· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I believe that "process" is the
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`18· ·key term here and that the definition offered takes into
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`19· ·account the context with which it's used throughout the
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`20· ·patent and the related documents.
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`21· · · ·Q.· ·BY MR. GAVIN:· What's the difference between
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`22· ·the meaning of the word "process" and the term "computer
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`23· ·process"?
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`24· · · · · · MS. SMITH:· Foundation.
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`25· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Did you say something?
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`·1· · · · · · MS. SMITH:· I -- it was just an objection.
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`·2· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· The difference depends upon
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`·3· ·context.
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`·4· · · ·Q.· ·BY MR. GAVIN:· Was there a difference in the
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`·5· ·context in the '574 patent?
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`·6· · · ·A.· ·I can't say if there is a difference because I
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`·7· ·did my analysis on the definition of "process" in the
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`·8· ·context of that time period and I haven't done an
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`·9· ·analysis of "computer process" and how it's defined in
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`10· ·that time period.
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`11· · · ·Q.· ·Separate from the '574 patent, how would a
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`12· ·skilled person in the art in December 1995 understand
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`13· ·the term "computer process"?
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`14· · · ·A.· ·I can't say without a detailed analysis of that
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`15· ·term in that time period.
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`16· · · ·Q.· ·So if I want to know what the phrase "computer
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`17· ·process" would mean to a skilled person in December 1995
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`18· ·generally speaking, you're unable to answer that
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`19· ·question?
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`20· · · · · · MS. SMITH:· Form.
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`21· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· That's correct, at this point.
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`22· · · ·Q.· ·BY MR. GAVIN:· In the context of the '574
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`23· ·patent, is a reasonable definition of "computer process"
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`24· ·a computer running software and that has storage?
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`25· · · ·A.· ·I can't say.
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`·1· · · ·Q.· ·Does your definition of "process" in paragraph
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`·2· ·16 require that there be no human involvement with the
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`·3· ·software?
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`·4· · · ·A.· ·My definition is that the term "process" at
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`·5· ·each claim is to include computer program instructions
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`·6· ·running on a computer and that this interpretation is
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`·7· ·consistent with the specification, which refers to a
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`·8· ·process in the context of Figure 1A as follows:· Each of
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`·9· ·the blocks in Figure 1A is implemented as computer
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`10· ·process running on a computer.
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`11· · · ·Q.· ·That doesn't really answer my question, though,
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`00:26:58
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`12· ·so I'm going to go back to my question or a slightly
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`13· ·different question, perhaps.
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`14· · · · · · Does your definition of "process" exclude a
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`15· ·human starting the computer program instructions that
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`16· ·are running on a computer?
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`17· · · ·A.· ·The extent to which I've considered whether a
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`18· ·human is excluded is considered in this definition in
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`19· ·which the term of "process" in each claim is to include
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`20· ·computer program instructions running on a computer.
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`21· ·This interpretation is consistent with the
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`22· ·specification, which refers to a process in the context
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`23· ·of Figure 1A as follows:· Each of the blocks in Figure
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`24· ·1A is implemented as a computer process running on a
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`25· ·computer.
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`·1· · · ·Q.· ·Can you turn to page 14, paragraph 39 of your
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`00:28:58
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`·2· ·declaration?· Can you read that paragraph to yourself
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`·3· ·and let me know when you're done?
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`·4· · · ·A.· ·"Even if the user were to manually invoke a
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`·5· ·computer program to verify the signature of the
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`·6· ·certificate contained in the email, I believe that such
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`·7· ·a step would still require the user to manually select
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`·8· ·the certificate and manually run the program that
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`·9· ·verifies the signature.· The user would then need to
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`10· ·send the certificate to the requester via email, as the
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`11· ·Certificate Signature Reply message '[is] in the form of
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`12· ·[an] email letter.'"
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`13· · · ·Q.· ·Why are the activities you describe in that
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`14· ·paragraph not included in your definition of "process"?
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`15· · · ·A.· ·Those activities are inconsistent with the
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`16· ·portion of this paragraph that says "in context of
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`17· ·Figure 1A as follows:· Each of the blocks in Figure 1A
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`18· ·is implemented as a computer process running on a
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`19· ·computer."
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`20· · · ·Q.· ·Why?
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`21· · · ·A.· ·Paragraph 39 describes a different method than
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`22· ·is described in paragraph 16.
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`23· · · ·Q.· ·What's different about it?· Just the manual
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`00:34:33
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`24· ·steps you recite in 39?
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`25· · · · · · MS. SMITH:· Form.
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`·1· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Paragraph 39 does not describe a
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`·2· ·computer -- a process as defined as computer program
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`·3· ·instructions running on a computer.
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`·4· · · ·Q.· ·BY MR. GAVIN:· Isn't the running of the program
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`·5· ·that verifies the signature that you mention in
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`·6· ·paragraph 39 a process under your definition?
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`·7· · · ·A.· ·I would say that the paragraph as a whole does
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`·8· ·not describe a computer program -- computer program
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`·9· ·instructions running on a computer.
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`00:37:13
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`00:37:16
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`10· · · ·Q.· ·I appreciate that, but that's not the question.
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`00:37:20
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`11· · · · · · You explicitly describe in paragraph 39 that a
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`12· ·computer program verifies the signature.· Correct?
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`00:37:33
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`13· · · ·A.· ·I say that a user -- would require the user to
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`00:37:47
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`14· ·manually select the certificate and manually run the
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`15· ·program that verifies the signature.
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`00:37:53
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`16· · · ·Q.· ·So you agree with me that the computer program
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`00:37:59
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`17· ·verifies the signature?
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`00:38:03
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`18· · · ·A.· ·To be more precise, I agree with what I said,
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`00:38:35
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`19· ·which is the user manually select the certificate and
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`20· ·manually run the program that verifies the signature.
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`00:38:39
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`00:38:45
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`21· · · ·Q.· ·But it's the computer program that verifies the
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`00:38:49
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`00:40:01
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`http://www.yeslaw.net/help
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`00:40:03
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`22· ·signature.· Yes or no.
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`23· · · · · · MS. SMITH:· Form.
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`24· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I can't say because verifying the
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`25· ·signature is not precisely defined and it's holistically
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`Page 19
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`www.aptusCR.comwww.aptusCR.com
`Compass Bank, et al. Exhibit 1010
`Compass Bank, et al. v. Intellectual Ventures II LLC
`IPR2014-00724
`Page 19
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`Frederic ChongFrederic Chong
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`Compass Bank vs. Intellectual VenturesCompass Bank vs. Intellectual Ventures
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`·1· ·done in paragraph 39.
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`·2· · · ·Q.· ·BY MR. GAVIN:· Under your definition of
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`00:40:07
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`00:40:14
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`·3· ·"process" in paragraph 16 can an email message invoke a
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`00:40:16
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`·4· ·process?
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`·5· · · ·A.· ·I can't say in the context of the time.
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`00:40:21
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`·6· · · ·Q.· ·Can a user invoke the process as you define it
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`00:40:57
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`·7· ·in paragraph 16?
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`00:41:00
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`·8· · · ·A.· ·Well, the answer depends upon the context and
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`00:42:03
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`·9· ·the kind of process.
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`10· · · ·Q.· ·Let's talk about your definition of "common
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`11· ·certificate repository," which is in paragraphs 17
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`12· ·through 19.· What does the word "common" mean to a
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`13· ·person of ordinary skill in the art in 1995?
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`14· · · ·A.· ·Well, I've considered the word "common" in 1995
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`00:43:17
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`15· ·to a person of ordinary skill in the art in the context
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`00:43:22
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`16· ·of how it modifies common certificate repository, and I
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`17· ·define that as repository that stores public key
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`18· ·certificates for all certification authorities.
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`00:43:30
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`19· · · ·Q.· ·The sentence you recite from the specification
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`00:43:35
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`20· ·in paragraph 18 says, and I quote, "common certificate
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`21· ·repository may contain public key certificates for all
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`22· ·certification authorities in the hierarchy."
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`23· · · · · · Why does that sentence require that the common
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`00:43:58
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`00:44:01
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`00:44:04
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`http://www.yeslaw.net/help
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`24· ·certificate repository store public key certificates for
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`25· ·all certification authorities when it uses the word
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`Page 20
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`www.aptusCR.comwww.aptusCR.com
`Compass Bank, et al. Exhibit 1010
`Compass Bank, et al. v. Intellectual Ventures II LLC
`IPR2014-00724
`Page 20
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`Frederic ChongFrederic Chong
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`·1· ·"may"?
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`·2· · · · · · MS. SMITH:· Form.
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`Compass Bank vs. Intellectual VenturesCompass Bank vs. Intellectual Ventures
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`00:44:07
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`·3· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I believe that the term "may" in
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`00:50:30
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`·4·
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