UNITED STATES PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`1
`
` WEBASTO ROOF SYSTEMS, INC.
` Petitioner
` V.
` UUSI, LLC
` Patent Owner
` Case IPR2014-00648
` Patent 8,217,612
` Case IPR2014-00649
` Patent 7,548,037
` Case IPR2014-00650
` Patent 7,579,802
`
`
` Deposition of Dr. Mark Ehsani
` March 13th, 2015
` 8:52 a.m.
`
` Reported By:
` KELLY BRYANT
` Job No: 38002
`
`WEBASTO EX. 1023
`WEBASTO ROOF SYSTEMS, INC. v. UUSI, LLC
`IPR2014-00650
`Page 1
`
`

`

`2
`
`3
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`4
`
` P R O C E E D I N G S
` (March 13, 2015)
` VIDEOGRAPHER: We're on the record.
` The date is March 13th, 2015, the time 8:52 a.m.
` beginning of the deposition of Mark Ehsani.
` MR. SANDERS: This is Charles Sanders of
` Goodwin, Procter, on behalf of the petitioner, Webasto
` Roof Systems.
` MR. KESKAR: Hemant Keskar, on behalf -- of
` Harness, Dickey & Pierce, on behalf of the patent owner,
` UUSI.
` VIDEOGRAPHER: And will the court reporter
` please swear in the witness?
` DR. MARK EHSANI,
` having been first duly sworn, testified as follows:
` DIRECT EXAMINATION
` BY MR. SANDERS:
` Q. Good morning, Dr. Ehsani.
` A. Good morning.
` Q. Is there anything that would prevent you from
` testifying truthful today?
` A. No.
` Q. And you understand that this will be a two-day
` deposition, today and Saturday, tomorrow?
` A. It's kind of short, but we'll try to enjoy it as
`
`5
`
` much as we can.
` Q. Understood. And I instruct you that you can't
` discuss overnight the contents of this deposition with
` your counsel.
` Do you understand that?
` A. I understand that.
` Q. And you've been deposed before, Dr. Ehsani,
` correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Dr. Ehsani, one of the patents that you reviewed
` in this case was UUSI '612 patent.
` Do you recall that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Now, the '612 patent does not disclose a working
` example of an algorithm that was implemented, correct?
` A. I don't know if that's correct or not.
` We have to look at the patent and you have to
` show me where it's not.
` Q. Well, actually, Dr. Ehsani, you're the expert.
` So you'll tell me whether it's there or not.
` MR. SANDERS: Just as a housekeeping issue,
` these exhibits have been premarked as exhibit -- with
` this petition. So unless -- unless Dr. Ehsani writes on
` them, I propose that we just simply use them with the
` exhibit numbers we have.
`
`2 (Pages 2 to 5)
`
` A-P-P-E-A-R-A-N-C-E-S
` FOR THE PETITIONER:
`
` Goodwin Procter
` Exchange Place, 53 State Street
` Boston, MA 02109
` BY: CHARLES H. SANDERS, ESQ.
` csanders@goodwinprocter.com
`
` FOR THE PATENT OWNER:
`
` Harness, Dickey & Pierce
` 5445 Corporate Drive
` Suite 200
` Troy, MI 48098
` BY: HEMANT M. KESKAR, ESQ.
` hkeskar@hdp.com
`
` ALSO PRESENT:
`
` Mr. Bryan Ligon, videographer
`
` INDEX
` PAGE
` Appearances.......................................... 2
` Court Reporter's Certificate ....................... 201
`
` DR. MARK EHSANI
`
` DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SANDERS............... 4
`
` EXHIBITS
`
` NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
`
`Exhibit 1001 U. S. Patent '612 ....................... 6
`Exhibit 2001 Declaration IPR 201400648 ............... 46
`Exhibit 1009 1009 U.S. Patent Number 5218282, Dubame.. 73
`Exhibit 1008 German Patent Office Patent Applicatio... 114
`Exhibit 2016 U. S. Patent Kawamura, et al............. 117
`Exhibit 2001 IPR 2014 '802 Patent Ehsani Declaration.. 120
`Exhibit 1001 '650 IPR and it is UUSI Patent Number
` 7579802, the '802 Nartron patent......... 126
`Exhibit 1003 U.S. Patent Narton's '037 Patent......... 175
`Exhibit 1 Ehsani Handwritten document.............. 192
`Exhibit 2 Ehsani handwritten document.............. 198
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`
`67
`
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`
`56
`
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
`450 Seventh Avenue - Ste 500, New York, NY 10123 1.800.642.1099
`
`Page 2
`
`

`

`6
`
`8
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MR. KESKAR: Sure.
` THE WITNESS: Thank you.
` (Petitioner's Exhibit 1001 premarked)
` Q. (BY MR. SANDERS) Dr. Ehsani, I've provided you
` with a copy of the '612 patent, which is Exhibit 1001,
` in the '612 patent IPR.
` And my question is whether this, excuse me -- my
` question -- I wanted you to confirm that the '612 patent
` does not disclose any working example of an algorithm
` that was implemented.
` A. Is that something I -- I recite in my report or
` are you asking something outside of my report?
` Q. Actually, I'm just asking the question.
` A. Is this related to my report, or is it outside of
` my report?
` Q. Dr. Ehsani, you understand that here today,
` you're -- you're here to answer my questions. I'm not
` here to answer yours.
` So if you can't answer the question, that's okay,
` just tell me that you -- you can't answer it; but,
` otherwise, please, confirm that this '612 does not
` disclose any working example of an algorithm that was
` implemented.
` A. I may be wrong, but my understanding is that I'm
` here to answer questions related to my report, and I'd
`
`7
`
` be happy to entertain general, unrelated questions, as
` long as you identify them as such. That's why I'm
` asking for clarification.
` If I have stated in my report that there's no
` working algorithm, then I'd be happy to read that and
` elaborate.
` But if you're asking general questions outside of
` my report, I would like to know that.
` Q. Dr. Ehsani, let me be very clear. You're here to
` answer my questions. I'm not here to answer yours.
` If you can't answer the question, you can let me
` know that, but, otherwise, I'll give you one more chance
` to review this '612 patent and tell me whether you can
` answer my question.
` My question is: Can you confirm that the '612
` patent does not disclose any working example of an
` algorithm that was implemented?
` A. I believe you are not correct in your general and
` vague assessment of the '612.
` Q. Is it your testimony that the '612 patent does
` disclose a working example of an algorithm that was
` implemented?
` A. Sorry, that's a different question from the
` previous question.
` Q. You didn't answer my previous question. I'm
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` going to give you one more chance, and then we'll just
` move on and mark the transcript that you were unable to
` answer.
` A. Sir --
` Q. My question is: Can you confirm that the '612
` patent does not disclose any working example of an
` algorithm that was implemented?
` A. I disagree with that assessment.
` Q. Do you believe the '612 patent does disclose a
` working example of an algorithm that was implemented?
` A. The '612 shows a series of equations and
` procedures that are the foundations of an algorithm and
` it shows the configuration of the hardware that can run
` that algorithm, and it gives examples of its results.
` That, in my mind, is what an algorithm consists
` of, and an algorithm, itself, being a rather vaguely
` defined term and not being specific codes of a software
` based on an algorithm.
` With that understanding, it is my belief that
` this is sufficient disclosure of an algorithm.
` Q. Does the '612 patent disclose that algorithm was
` implemented?
` A. My understanding is a patent is not a reporting
` of past events, but it is disclosure of a method or
` apparatus to the level of enablement of the reader to
`
`9
`
` reproduce it and not a report of whether that was done
` in the past or not.
` It is not the way I read a patent.
` Q. Okay. You've answered a different question,
` which is how you read a question patent.
` My question is -- could I please have my question
` read back?
` (Reporter read requested material)
` A. Again, my understanding is that you're asking me
` that there is the reporting of an event in time.
` I have to read the patent over to see if a
` reporting was done. I read their patent for the
` disclosure of the invention, and its embodiment in the
` specifications.
` I have not read the patent, or at least I don't
` -- I have to read it over again to see if it reports
` events of the past. It may be there. It may not be
` there.
` My understanding is that patents are not written
` about -- you don't -- you don't patent events. You
` patent methods and apparatus.
` Q. Let me make this very simple.
` If you believe that the '612 discloses an example
` of an algorithm that was implemented, please give me the
` column and line numbers where you believe that
`3 (Pages 6 to 9)
`
`DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
`450 Seventh Avenue - Ste 500, New York, NY 10123 1.800.642.1099
`
`Page 3
`
`

`

`10
`
` disclosure is in the patent.
` A. As I mentioned to you, the disclosures, as I read
` them, are enabling for the claims that it has listed.
` My understanding is that it is not necessary for
` someone to have actually built one or not.
` I have to read the whole patent to -- I have
` actually never read a patent that said we did this and
` we did it on such and such date and it was nice or
` anything like that. So a description of an event in the
` laboratory is probably not in this patent.
` But if you are asking me the implication that the
` person was in possession of the patent at the time of
` filing, I believe the answer is, yes.
` Q. Actually, none of that is what I asked. I asked
` you to identify column and line numbers. You have the
` patent in front of you.
` If you believe that the '612 patent discloses a
` working example of an algorithm that was implemented,
` please identify the column and line numbers where that
` is disclosed in the patent.
` A. Again, that's a very, very complicated and
` composite question.
` Q. No, it's not. I asked you to identify the column
` and line number.
` A. May I finish my answer --
`
`11
`
` Q. No, you may not.
` A. If you interrupt me, sir, you will not get an
` answer. You have to let me finish my answer.
` Q. You were asked for column and line numbers and
` you're not even looking at the patent.
` I'll try this one more time. If you're not
` capable of answering the question, we'll simply mark the
` transcript and move on, and we'll deal with it down the
` line.
` My question is: If you believe that the '612
` patent discloses a working example of an algorithm that
` was implemented, please identify the column and lines
` where that is disclosed.
` A. It will take me a while because I have to review
` the entire patent, with your indulgence.
` I'm on column 2, I have not finished my entire
` search yet. Line 3 says, An exemplary system built in
` accordance with one embodiment of the invention, built,
` implements position and speed sensing is via electronic
` motor control commutation pulse sensing of the motor --
` of the drive motor, and so on and so forth.
` That, sir, to me says that it was built. It's an
` event in time. It was based on the invention. I would
` like to continue to look for all the other occurrences
` of this event.
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`12
` Q. Just to be clear, what column and lines were you
` speaking about?
` A. Patent number U.S. 8217612 B2, column 2, starting
` from line 3.
` Q. Continue your review.
` A. Yeah, I'm not finished.
` Another occurrence is in column 2 of the same
` patent, starting from line 9, In one exemplary
` embodiment stored empirical parameter characteristics
` and algorithms adaptively modify.
` Stored is an event in time. It implies
` implementation, to me, and it goes on to say,
` Empirically -- Empirical parameter characteristics and
` algorithms adaptively modify, obstacle detection
` thresholds, during an ongoing actuation for improved
` obstacle detection sensitivity and threshold, resulting
` in quicker obstacle detection, with lower initial force,
` lower final pinch force, and reduced -- reduced
` occurrence of false obstacle detection.
` I read that to mean it is an implementation.
` It's reporting of an event in the past.
` (Reading)
` A. In column 10, line 13, it says, One
` representative vehicle sunroof has approximately 3,000
` commutation pulses over the full actuation range of the
`13
`
` full open to full closed positions of the sunroof.
` This -- again, trying to answer your question
` with as much fidelity as I can, on a brief review of
` this patent, is clearly an empirical reporting of an
` event that was measured.
` And this, obviously, was not measured, in my
` mind, out of just a curiosity about geometry, but in
` connection with implementing this methodology.
` Since this is not theoretical and cannot be
` guessed at, it implies actual measurement of the
` rotation of a DC motor in a power system, including the
` actuation and the movement of the enclosures and all the
` things that had been described here.
` That is -- that's a representative of having
` implemented what they're talking about, in some sense.
` (Reading)
` A. Column 15, line 55, the inventor states, Figure 4
` shows typical start-up energization characteristics of
` current and per speed for motor -- excuse the English.
` Start-up obstacle detection is somewhat
` difficult, because so on and so forth.
` This figure, if you look at it, refers to
` something that is not theoretical and it's not
` exemplary. It is typical. You cannot get that from
` calculations.
`
`4 (Pages 10 to 13)
`
`DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
`450 Seventh Avenue - Ste 500, New York, NY 10123 1.800.642.1099
`
`Page 4
`
`

`

`14
`
`16
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` This implies to me that this was obtained
` empirically. And to obtain this, I assume that -- it's
` reasonable to assume that they did this experiment with
` their machinery and with their algorithm to get these
` things.
` So they are in possession of a running experiment
` to get these curves. I could be wrong. This could just
` be an artist rendition. It's got -- it's too nuanced
` beyond what they need to use for their arguments.
` So I'm led to believe that this is an actual
` working system representative curvature.
` THE WITNESS: Am I going too fast? Can you
` keep up?
` (Reading)
` A. In column 25, I will read from line 55, because
` it shows the person has done these experiments
` physically, Empirical actuation motor load profile
` equation and algorithm.
` Nominal operation parameters for obstacle
` detection threshold are empirically characterized as
` motor current loading versus actuator position.
` Alternative empirical characterization --
` characterizations include motor current versus time,
` motor speed versus time, motor speed versus position and
` combinations thereof, as period as per -- as per period
`
`15
`
` art references.
` In the present embodiment this algebraic
` representation has a general, simplified large --
` simplified algebraic form for fast commutation via speed
` processing, particularly implementing, adding and/or bit
` shifting and/or bite shifting operations.
` These types of empirical data manipulation for
` conversion to fast computing real time micro controller
` algorithm have been found to be applicable to various
` diverse combinations of vehicle sunroofs.
` This, to me, implies that this might include the
` authors -- they have found through experimentation.
` (Reading)
` A. On a very quick reading of the patent in response
` to your questions about whether the inventor actually
` practiced and experimented the algorithm and the system
` that they have claimed, I found the references that I
` mentioned to you.
` Q. I would like to direct your attention to the
` first passage that you identified at column 2, starting
` at line 3, you identified that paragraph as well as the
` paragraph starting at line 9.
` Do you have that in front of you?
` A. I do.
` Q. Do you see -- you read in column 2 about line 9,
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` there's a reference to stored empirical parameter
` characterizations.
` A. Are you talking about column 2?
` Q. Yes, that's what I directed you to.
` A. Column 2, line 10, One exemplary embodiment
` stored parameter characterization and algorithms
` adaptively modified obstacle detection thresholds,
` during an ongoing actuation for improved obstacle
` detection sensitivity and threshold, resulting in a
` quicker obstacle detection, with lower initial force,
` lower final pinch force, and reduced the occurrence of
` false detection, correct.
` Q. So we established that you have seen it.
` There's no disclosure of any values of the stored
` empirical parameter characterizations, correct?
` A. This passage is not about naming numbers. It is
` about --
` Q. Thank you.
` You also read the language adaptively modify
` obstacle detection thresholds as part of that sentence.
` My question is: Whether you see in this passage
` any disclosure of how that adaption was done?
` A. Of course, you understand much better than I do
` that this is a summary of the invention. So it is
` acknowledging what will be disclosed in the
`
`17
`
` specifications in detail.
` Q. There's also notice of disclosure in that section
` of what specific algorithm was used, correct?
` A. Again, I don't really agree with your
` characterization of disclosure. This is a summary of a
` disclosure of those algorithms.
` Q. What specific algorithm was used in the passage
` that you identified, column 2, lines 3 through 15?
` A. Again, I have to read through the whole thing to
` match with that. These are very, very specialize
` questions. I haven't read these from the perspective of
` that question.
` Would you like me to take time and to try to
` match --
` Q. No. If you haven't been able to figure it out
` after an hour of review, then that's sufficient for my
` purposes.
` A. No, sir. That's a mischaracterization of my
` answer -- sir, let me finish my answer.
` Q. Actually --
` A. You interrupt me, then you're asking the question
` and moving on.
` Q. I'm moving on.
` A. Okay. Because -- I would like to put on the
` record that you mischaracterized my answer and the
`5 (Pages 14 to 17)
`
`DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
`450 Seventh Avenue - Ste 500, New York, NY 10123 1.800.642.1099
`
`Page 5
`
`

`

`18
`
`20
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` reason reading this. I didn't read this --
` Q. What specific -- sir --
` A. -- in anticipation of your future questions but
` the previous question.
` Q. Sir, what specific algorithm, if any, is being
` used in column 2, lines 3 through 15?
` A. I have to read the patent to tell you.
` That is not a question that I have answered in my
` report.
` Q. So sitting here today right now, after the review
` that you have done, you cannot answer the question
` without rereading the patent; is that correct?
` A. No, sir, that's not correct.
` Q. Then answer it without rereading the patent.
` What specific algorithm is being used in column
` 2, lines 3 through 15?
` A. Sir, I have not memorized the patent. Every time
` you ask a new combination of questions about where does
` this sentence relate of the rest of the patent, I have
` to review the patent to answer that.
` Q. So sitting here today, without performing another
` review, you can't answer my question, correct?
` A. I have not memorized this patent. I cannot
` recite to you randomly selected concepts or phrases by
` column and line.
`
`19
`
` Q. Now, there's a reference in this passage to lower
` initial force. There's no disclosure of a value of any
` failures that could be detected using what's described
` in column 2, lines 3 through 15, correct?
` A. The purpose of this passage is not to give a
` number. A number -- a specific number would be
` meaningless, and, obviously, that's not the purpose
` here.
` So I wouldn't say there's no disclosure. This is
` not about a number.
` Q. There is no disclosure anywhere in the '612
` patent of any force, particular value of any force, that
` can be detected using any approach described in the '621
` (sic) patent, correct?
` A. I would have to review the patent again to tell
` you if there is.
` Again, these are very random out of blue sky
` questions that I cannot answer not having memorized --
` or I haven't put the patent to a song, so it's not
` coming.
` Q. Very good. So there's also a reference to lower
` final pinch force in column 2, lines 3 through 15.
` There's no disclosure in that passage or, indeed,
` anywhere in the '612 patent of what pinch force can be
` detected, using any approach described in the '612
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` patent, correct?
` A. I disagree with you. But in order to tell you
` where this is explained, I would have to read the
` patent.
` Q. What's the basis for saying that you disagree
` with me?
` A. This is the summary of the invention. This
` invention is sufficiently -- specifically specified in
` the body of this patent.
` It would be a misrepresentation to say that what
` he summarizes is not explained further.
` Now, a person of no skill in the art might not be
` able to recognize it, because you might go for words,
` but there may be implications that technically are
` equivalent to -- to those particular words.
` You have to read this in a sophisticated,
` technical way; otherwise, you could do a word scan and
` you wouldn't have to be here asking these questions, I
` assume.
` Q. I'll direct you to the next passage that you
` identified, column 10, line 13 through 16.
` A. Yes, sir.
` Q. In that section, there's no disclosure of any
` example of an obstacle detection algorithm that was
` implemented, correct?
`
`21
`
` A. No, you're not correct, sir.
` Q. What obstacle detection algorithm do you believe
` was implemented in column 10, lines 13 through 16?
` A. The one that is disclosed in this invention and
` this is a representative number from experimental
` evaluation of this invention to highlight the part that
` relates to this particular passage.
` That's my understanding of it.
` Q. From column 10, lines 13 through 16, can you tell
` what specific obstacle detection algorithm was
` implemented?
` A. That is not the intent of this passage.
` Q. So you can't tell from that passage?
` A. Your question is very specific. There's several
` --
` Q. Yes, I would like a specific answer to my
` specific question.
` MR. SANDERS: Could I have the question read
` back, please?
` (Reporter read back requested material)
` A. Yes, the one that is disclosed in the patent.
` Q. (BY MR. SANDERS) Identify for me by column and
` line, the obstacle -- specific obstacle detection
` algorithm disclosed in the patent that you believe was
` implemented in column, lines 13 through 16?
`6 (Pages 18 to 21)
`
`DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
`450 Seventh Avenue - Ste 500, New York, NY 10123 1.800.642.1099
`
`Page 6
`
`

`

`22
`
`24
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` A. Again, your question, sir, with all due respect
` is a little tricky.
` This patent is about a specific obstacle
` detection and there are infinite varieties of this
` specific one that are possible and are disclosed.
` So when you say "specific," you mean specific to
` the patent or specific with numerical details of the
` infinite variety of weighting functions or periods that
` are uses.
` So the word "specific" is vague and with all due
` respect, not very meaningful. But to the intent that it
` can be answered in such vagueness, I refer you to the
` techniques, for example, that are disclosed in columns
` 21 and 22 and before and beyond.
` But those are the equations of detection of soft
` and hard obstacles that are insinuated in the
` experimental results, part of which is shown in the
` passage that you repeated from my answer.
` Q. Focusing now on columns 21 and 22, do you see
` that there is identification of constants denoted K with
` subscripts?
` A. Column 21. Which -- which line that you said, 22
` and 21, which lines?
` Q. Well, you directed me to column 21 and 22.
` A. Correct.
`
`23
` Q. And my question was: Do you see in those columns
` that there's disclosure of constants denoted K with
` subscripts?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And the '612 patent discloses that K can be
` empirically determined or adaptive, correct?
` A. I believe that's the correct characterization.
` Q. There is no disclosure in the '612 patent of any
` values of K that were empirically determined, correct?
` A. K are empirical numbers that I believe the
` inventor was possession of some of them to run his
` experiments.
` Q. Well, focusing on the disclosure of the '612
` patent, there is no disclosure any of those numbers for
` K, correct?
` A. I have to read the whole patent to be sure.
` But to hazard a guess, without having memorized
` the patent, I can tell you that this patent is not about
` a particular set of numbers. It would add nothing to
` the patent to have those numbers.
` It shows how the numbers are to be derived and
` how they are to be used, and reporting of -- of example
` runs that they have done with their own specific
` numbers, they have not reported the experiment. They
` have reported the algorithm, the numerical values of the
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` experiment.
` Q. So sitting here today after the review of this
` '612 patent that you have done this morning, without
` going back and reviewing the '612 patent again, do you
` recall any specific numbers of K that are mentioned in
` the '612 patent?
` A. Sir, I would have to address the first part of
` the question because it is misleading. I did not --
` Q. Actually, I don't want you to mischaracterize, my
` question.
` If you don't understand it, you can say you don't
` understand the question and others can make a decision,
` like the board, whether it was a fair question or not,
` but I'm not interested in your characterization of my
` question.
` MR. SANDERS: Can I have the question read
` back, please?
` (The reporter read back requested material.)
` A. Sir, this is a very composite type of a question.
` I assume the first part is meaningful and the question
` is based on the first part.
` I didn't review this patent with respect to the
` question you're asking right now. So in that light, the
` second part of the question to me is meaningless.
` I will answer the second part of your question
`
`25
`
` independent of the first part. I did not review this
` patent for the question you're asking now; therefore, I
` can tell you that, as a guess, that could be wrong, not
` having reviewed the patent, for looking for numbers,
` expressed or implied, I believe that there are no
` numbers given for all the values of K in this exemplary
` equation of the hard and soft detection algorithm.
` Q. (BY MR. SANDERS) I would like to direct your
` attention to the next passage that you identified,
` column 15, line 55, is where you identified it started.
` A. Which line again?
` Q. Line 55 is the line that you identified earlier.
` A. Correct.
` Q. What specific obstacle detection algorithm, if
` any, do you believe was implemented in the passage
` starting at column 15, line 55?
` A. As I -- my answer is the same. It's the one that
` has been described in the -- in the soft and hard
` detection equations in column 22 and around it.
` Q. I would like to direct your attention to the next
` passage you identified at column 25, starting at line
` 55. There's no disclosure in that passage of any
` parameter of the values, correct?
` A. This passage that I read, not having anything to
` do with parameter values, numerical values, clearly
`7 (Pages 22 to 25)
`
`DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
`450 Seventh Avenue - Ste 500, New York, NY 10123 1.800.642.1099
`
`Page 7
`
`

`

`26
`
`28
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` doesn't have that or any other unrelated numbers or
` subjects.
` Q. And there's no disclosure in this passage of what
` the reference algebraic representation is, correct?
` A. I'm sorry, where does it say that?
` Q. It was -- you read the sentences and it is in
` line 63.
` A. Yes. What's your question?
` Q. There is no disclosure of what the algebraic
` representation is, correct?
` A. Again, this is talking about the algebraic
` representations can be simplified, and so it's not
` saying here is an example of it.
` Q. There's no disclosure in the '612 patent of the
` size of any object detected as an obstacle, correct?
` A. I would have to read the thing to tell you.
` Again, it may be expressed or implied. I have to
` read this with that question in mind.
` Q. Sitting here today without going and reviewing
` the '612 patent again, do you have any recollection of
` any size of any object of the '612 patent disclosed can
` be detected as an obstacle?
` A. Yes. My understanding is that the size implied
` is the size that fits through the window.
` Q. What do you mean by fits to the window?
`
`27
`
` A. Throughout the travel path of the -- of the
` sunroof window.
` Anything that fits in there can be an obstacle,
` and so the size -- this invention is not about a
` particular size it's about what obstructs the window in
` its full travel path.
` Q. Sitting here today, can you recall any disclosure
` of any resistive force that would be recognized as an
` obstacle using any of the approaches described in the
` '612 patent?
` A. Would you repeat the question again?
` (Reporter read requested material)
` A. Okay. That question -- my understanding of what
` this question means is that, does the inventor talk
` about a numerical force in one of the units of force?
` It probably does. I would have to look at it. I
` don't recall.
` Q. (BY MR. SANDERS) Is it possible that use of the
` approaches described in the '612 patent may not detect a
` soft obstacle, correct?
` A. You're asking me if this invention is not about
` detecting soft obstacles?
` Q. No. Please listen carefully to my question.
` It is possible that your use of the approaches
` described in the '612 patent may not detect a soft
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` obstacle, correct?
` A. These are tricky questions. Let me think about
` this.
` This invention is about hard and soft obstacle
` detection, and you're asking me will it not detect soft
` obstacles. My answer is, no, that's not correct. It is
` about soft obstacle detection.
` What do you mean by "soft"?
` Q. Ba