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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` THE GILLETTE COMPANY,
` et al.,
` Petitioners,
` Patent No. 6,896,775
` IPR 2014-00578
` vs. IPR 2014-00604
` IPR 2014-01482
` ZOND, LLC, IPR 2014-01494
` Patent Owner.
`-----------------------------------------------------
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF LARRY D. HARTSOUGH, Ph.D.
` Berkeley, California
` Thursday, February 19, 2015
`
`REPORTED BY:
`TAVIA MANNING, CSR No. 13294, CLR, CCRR, RPR
`JOB NO. 90259
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`IPR2014-00604
`Gillette v. Zond
`Gillette 1119
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`Page 1
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` THE GILLETTE COMPANY,
` et al.,
` Petitioners,
` Patent No. 6,896,775
` IPR 2014-00578
` vs. IPR 2014-00604
` IPR 2014-01482
` ZOND, LLC, IPR 2014-01494
` Patent Owner.
`-----------------------------------------------------
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF LARRY D. HARTSOUGH, Ph.D.
` Berkeley, California
` Thursday, February 19, 2015
`
`REPORTED BY:
`TAVIA MANNING, CSR No. 13294, CLR, CCRR, RPR
`JOB NO. 90259
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`IPR2014-00604
`Gillette v. Zond
`Gillette 1119
`
`
`
` February 19, 2015
` 10:08 A.M.
`
`Page 2
`
`Deposition of LARRY D. HARTSOUGH, Ph.D.,
`taken on behalf of Petitioners at 200
`Marina Boulevard, Berkeley, California,
`before Tavia Manning, Certified Shorthand
`Reporter No. 13294, Certified LiveNote
`Reporter, California Certified Realtime
`Reporter, Registered Professional Reporter.
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`APPEARANCES:
`
`FOR TAIWAN SEMICONDUCTOR MANUFACTURING COMPANY,
`LIMITED and TSMC NORTH AMERICA and FUJITSU:
` HAYNES AND BOONE
` BY: GREGORY HUH, ESQ.
` 2505 North Plano Road
` Richardson, Texas 75082
`
`
`
`
`FOR THE GILLETTE COMPANY:
` WILMERHALE
` BY: COSMIN MAIER, ESQ.
` 7 World Trade Center
` 250 Greenwich Street
` New York, New York 10007
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`APPEARANCES (CONTINUED):
`
`FOR THE PATENT OWNER ZOND, LLC:
` RADULESCU
` BY: ETAI LAHAV, ESQ.
` TIGRAN VARDANIAN, ESQ.
` The Empire State Building
` 350 Fifth Avenue
` New York, New York 10118
`
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`
`Also present: Jeff Manly, Videographer
`
` ***
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` BERKELEY, CALIFORNIA;
` THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 19, 2015; 10:08 A.M.
`
`Page 5
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the start of
`tape labeled Number 1, of the videotaped deposition
`of Hartsough in the matter of Gillette Company
`versus Zond, in the Court of the Patent Trial and
`Appeal Board, and Case Numbers IPR 2014-01482, IPR
`2014-01494, IPR 2014-00578, IPR 2014-00604.
` This deposition is being held at 200 Marina
`Boulevard in Berkeley, California on February 19th,
`2014 at approximately 10:09 a.m.
` My name is Jeff Manly from TSG Reporting,
`and I am the legal video specialist.
` The court reporter is Tavia Manning in
`association with TSG Reporting.
` Will counsel please introduce yourself.
` MR. MAIER: Cosmin Maier of WilmerHale on
`behalf of The Gillette Company, and on the phone is
`my colleague Sam Ha.
` MR. HUH: Gregory Huh, from Haynes and
`Boone, on behalf of TSMC and Fujitsu.
` MR. LAHAV: Etai Lahav, from Radulescu,
`LLP, on behalf of patent owner Zond and the witness.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court reporter
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`please swear in the witness.
`
`Page 6
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` LARRY D. HARTSOUGH, Ph.D.,
`having been first duly sworn by the court reporter,
` testified as follows:
`
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Good morning, sir.
` A. Good morning.
` Q. Any reason you can't give your best and
`truthful testimony here today?
` A. No.
` Q. And, again, as we discussed yesterday, if I
`ask a question and you answer it, I'll assume you
`understood it; is that fair?
` A. Fair.
` Q. And, again, we'll do our best to -- to not
`talk over each other.
` Okay?
` A. Right.
` Q. Did you do anything to prepare for today's
`deposition?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What did you do?
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` A. Met with counsel and --
` Q. Okay.
` A. -- and reviewed some of the documents of
`the -- associated with this case.
` Q. Who did you meet with?
` A. Mr. Lahav and Mr. Vardanian.
` Q. About how long did you meet with them?
` A. Well, we spent some time on Sunday, not --
`not the entire time that we met, and some time on
`Tuesday, during that day, and about a couple of
`hours last night after the deposition was over
`yesterday.
` Q. About how many hours did you spend last
`night?
` A. Two.
` Oh, meaning with them?
` Q. Yes.
` A. That's what you meant?
` Yes.
` Q. Okay. I'm going to hand you what's been
`marked as Exhibit 2006 in the 604 IPR, which is your
`declaration.
` Do you recognize Exhibit 2006?
` A. Yes.
` Q. This is a declaration you submitted in
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`connection with the '775 IPRs?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And I notice that there's only one IPR
`number listed for the Gillette matters on the cover,
`but I understand that -- that this declaration is
`your opinion for both IPRs that Gillette submitted;
`right?
` A. That -- that is my understanding, yes.
` Q. Okay. And you'll understand if I refer to
`U.S. Patent 6,896,775 as the '775 patent?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Turn to page 12 of your declaration.
` It's page 12 --
` A. Yes.
` Q. -- not paragraph.
` A. I am there.
` Q. On this page, you're discussing the board's
`construction for the term "means for ionizing a feed
`gas" and "means for ionizing a volume of feed gas"
`in connection with Claims 36 and 37 respectively;
`correct?
` A. Let -- let me just -- that -- that's what I
`see on that page. I just wanted to look -- look
`back here a little bit.
` (Witness reviewing document.)
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` So your question was...
` Q. On page 12 of your declaration, you are
`discussing the Board's construction for the term
`"means for ionizing a feed gas," which was in Claim
`36 --
` A. Yes.
` Q. -- and "means for ionizing a volume of feed
`gas," which was in Claim 37.
` A. I'm discussing those, yes.
` Q. And the Board adopted the broadest
`reasonable interpretation of these claim terms;
`correct?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: That was -- I -- I -- that
`was the Board's opinion, I guess.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. And the Board concluded that the structure
`for these terms is a power supply electrically
`connected to a cathode, an anode, and/or an
`electrode; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And you disagree with the Board's
`construction; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. You state in page -- on page 12 in the
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`second sentence, "In my opinion, the Board's
`construction of this term is flawed"; right?
` A. Yeah, insofar as it fails to account for
`the important cathode-to-anode arrangement that's
`described by Dr. Chistyakov in this patent -- in
`this patent.
` Q. You think the Board's construction is
`flawed; right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. So you did not apply the construction
`adopted by the Board to your analysis of the '775
`patent; correct?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: I disagreed with it, yes, and
`I did not apply that.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. You applied a different construction to
`your analysis of the '775 patent; correct?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: I disagreed with the Board,
`yes. And I applied this -- the construction that I
`quote at the bottom of -- on page 12:
` "... means for ionizing a volume of feed
` gas as a power supply electrically
` connected to a cathode separated from an
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` anode and/or an electrode by a gap there
` between."
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. And you disagreed, and, therefore, did not
`apply the Board's construction, because it fails to
`account for the important cathode/anode arrangement
`that is described by Dr. Chistyakov; right?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Correct.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. This important cathode/anode arrangement
`that you think is missing from the Board's
`construction is the notion of the gap between the
`anode and cathode; right?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: As Doctor -- as -- as
`described in the patent.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. I'm not sure that quite answers the
`question.
` So the important cathode arrangement that
`you think is missing from the Board's construction
`is the notion of the gap and the volume resulting
`therefrom between the anode and cathode; right?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
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`Page 12
` THE WITNESS: That -- that's not the entire
`description of the importance of that gap.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Well, what do you contend is missing from
`the Board's construction?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` Go ahead.
` I lodged my objection. Go ahead.
` THE WITNESS: You're done?
` MR. LAHAV: Yes.
` THE WITNESS: I would prefer to look at the
`patent to show -- to be able to accurately and
`precisely tell you the -- the other attribute of
`the -- of the gap.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Well, sir, you understand that your
`opinions have to be in your declaration; right?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: I -- I said that the
`structure is and the construction is separated by a
`gap there between, yes.
` And you talked about a gap. You just --
`you said a gap had a distance and a volume.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. No, you said that, sir. You said:
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` "... because the gap and the volume
` resulting therefrom between the anode and
` cathode."
` Do you see where I am reading from?
` A. So let me -- I -- I can read it here --
`from here. I would prefer to quote it directly, but
`since this is a quote:
` "So as to form a gap between the cathode or
` the anode that is sufficient to allow
` current to flow through a region between
` the anode and the cathode."
` So that's an additional attribute, that gap
`has to be sufficient to allow current to flow --
` Q. Well, you didn't --
` A. -- through a region 245 between the anode
`238 and the cathode 216.
` Q. You didn't put that in your construction,
`did you?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Look at your construction.
` A. It is not -- it is not in the construction.
` Q. So what you've added to the Board's
`construction, by way of your own construction, is
`the notion of a gap separating the anode and an
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`electrode; correct?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; asked and answered.
` THE WITNESS: Yes.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Now, turn -- have I given you the '775
`patent?
` A. No.
` Q. This has been marked as Gillette 1001.
` Sir, Gillette Exhibit 1001 is the '775
`patent that you studied in connection with the two
`IPRs we're discussing today?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Turn to Figure 2.
` Now, the claimed gap in your construction
`in the embodiment shown in Figure 2 is labeled 244;
`right?
` And I will direct you to Column 5, Lines
`15, 16.
` A. This -- this is an embodiment of the
`apparatus according to the present invention.
` Q. Right.
` And the gap in this embodiment of Figure 2
`is labeled 244; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Turn to Figure 3.
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`Page 15
` And I will direct you to Column 8, Lines 63
`to 65.
` Same question:
` The gap in the embodiment shown in Figure 3
`that you reference in your construction is labeled
`244; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. In both Figures 2 and 3, the gap is
`depicted as the distance between anode 238 and
`cathode 216; correct?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: It's -- yes.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Turn to Figure 10.
` Where is the claimed gap that you require
`in Figure 10?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: It's -- excuse me, Figure 10.
` It's labeled as 244.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Again, it's the distance labeled 244
`between cathode 216 and anode 238; correct?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: It's pointing to the gap.
`It -- it doesn't describe it as -- as -- as a
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`distance.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Are you done with your answer?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Is it a distance or not?
` A. Well, it's -- it's labeling -- it's showing
`what the gap is.
` Q. And is the gap a distance between the anode
`and cathode?
` A. Well, the gap has a distance.
` Q. Between the anode and cathode?
` A. Yeah. There are other distances between
`the anode and cathode as well.
` Q. The one depicted by 244 is the gap; right?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: That -- that's what -- yes,
`that's what it says.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Turn to Figure 7.
` Where is the gap you require in Figure 7?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. We'll give you a hint: The gap isn't
`explicitly labeled in Figure 7, if that's what
`you're searching for.
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` A. And the answer is the gap isn't explicitly
`labeled in Figure 7.
` Q. So where is the gap in label -- in --
`strike that.
` Where is the gap in Figure 7?
` A. It's a -- it's -- it's a space between the
`anode and the cathode that -- that is sufficient
`to -- as I told you earlier, is sufficient to
`perform the functions that are talked about in the
`Chistyakov patent.
` Q. And where is that in Figure 7?
` A. It -- in this region.
` Q. Well, the court reporter can't tell where
`you're pointing.
` I'll give you a pen.
` A. I'm not going to mark it.
` Q. Well, sir, you can't just refuse to mark
`it.
` So I'll give you a pen. Identify for me,
`as best you can, the gap in Figure 7.
` MR. LAHAV: You may refuse to mark it, if
`you wish. You also may choose to comply. And you
`can describe it in words, if you'd like.
` MR. MAIER: You can't instruct him not to
`comply.
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` MR. LAHAV: I did not instruct him not to
`comply. I -- you -- you -- you gave him an
`incorrect instruction. He's not required to make
`any marking because you asked him to --
` MR. MAIER: Stop with the speaking
`colloquies. Okay?
` You're done.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Sir, where is the gap in Figure 7 of the
`'775 patent?
` A. The gap can have values or can be between
`238, the anode, and 216, the cathode. And it can be
`in the -- across any -- you know, basically, across
`region 452, where the -- where the electric --
`excuse me, across region 452.
` Q. So --
` A. So the gap can be between the parallel
`parts and -- and between the edges, because the
`electric field there can certainly support current
`flow.
` So --
` Q. What do you mean by "edges"?
` A. -- in this --
` Q. What did you mean by "edges" when you said,
`"edges"?
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` A. Where the -- 238. It's pointing to the
`cathode.
` I'm sorry, excuse me. It's -- 238 is
`pointing to the anode, which is a structure; right?
` Q. Well, this is -- this is the problem when
`you won't mark it. It's hard for me to see when
`you're just pointing to the paper.
` So explicitly describe for me where the gap
`can be in Figure 7.
` You said it's between 238 anode and 216
`cathode; right?
` A. Right.
` Q. Any distance between those two components
`is the gap in Figure 7?
` A. That supports the current flow.
` Q. Well, what does that mean?
` A. Well, most of the current from a discharge
`is going to go to certain locations on the anode
`and -- and not to other locations on the anode.
`They're -- they'll -- they'll follow the electric
`field lines of force to -- to flow. So...
` Q. Can you hand me the red pen?
` Thank you.
` I'll ask the court reporter to mark this in
`a second, but is what I have drawn there a gap in
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`accordance with what you've required in Claim 36?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection to form.
` THE WITNESS: Well, that may not comprehend
`the entire gap --
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. That is --
` A. -- in the gap.
` Q. -- a measure of the gap?
` A. That's a measure -- a measure. As I said,
`there are other distances where the current can
`flow.
` Q. I've drawn a second line.
` A. There are other lines.
` Q. Show me where all of the gaps --
` A. Well --
` Q. Well, show me your best example --
` A. My --
` Q. -- of the gap.
` A. My example of the gap is, you know --
` Q. Why don't you do it --
` A. -- in this --
` Q. -- in black pen.
` A. -- in this instance --
` Q. Why don't you do it in black so we can tell
`that I made a mark and what you made. Right?
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` A. It could also be those distances.
` Q. That's what you meant by "edge" earlier?
` A. Yeah.
` Q. Okay.
` A. So there are other distances of the -- the
`gap than -- than just -- just that distance.
` Q. Understood.
` Let me draw one more for you and see if I
`just am understanding you right. And, again, I'll
`be using red.
` Is the third line I've drawn all the way to
`the left a gap within the context of Claim 36?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Well, again, I would have
`to -- not in that -- not in that one. But --
`because there's a -- an object in between that
`would, you know, prevent current flow in that case.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. What object is in between the third line I
`drew to the very left and that is not in between all
`of the other lines that you and I --
` A. That --
` Q. -- have drawn?
` A. -- that's -- let's see...
` (Witness reviewing document.)
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` What the heck is that there?
` That -- that 452 object is a -- an
`electrode.
` Q. Well, let -- let me withdraw the question
`on the last one, on -- on the final line I drew.
` A. The -- the -- the gap...
` Q. Sir, I've -- I've withdrawn the question on
`the last line I drew. So there's no question
`pending.
` A. Right.
` Q. But I am going to ask you to initial the
`lines that you drew.
` Sir?
` A. Just a moment.
` Q. Would you please initial just the lines
`that you drew?
` A. I would -- I would rather just describe
`that the lines that I drew and the lines that you
`drew, except for that one --
` Q. The one on the very left?
` A. -- are basically all part of the gap.
` Q. Okay. So with the exception of the line
`that I drew in red on the very left, the rest of the
`lines that we've drawn together are part of the gap?
` A. Could be part of the gap.
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` Q. Will you initial --
` A. The -- the gap --
` Q. -- will you initial in black the ones that
`you drew?
` A. And -- no.
` Q. You're refusing to initial the -- the lines
`that you drew?
` A. It's my -- it's part of the record.
` Q. Why are you refusing to initial the lines
`that you drew?
` A. Well, I would prefer not to.
` Q. I'm confused by that.
` Why?
` Do you want there to be some confusion
`later as to whether or not you drew those lines?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: I -- I don't want the reason
`why I drew those lines to be misconstrued.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Well, the reason you drew those lines is on
`the record. I'm asking you to identify the lines
`you drew by initialing them.
` Is that okay?
` A. Well, not really.
` Q. Why?
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` Why are you refusing to initial the lines
`you drew?
` A. There's...
` Q. You initialed an exhibit in connection with
`the '184 deposition; remember that?
` A. Yeah, I did.
` Q. And our experts, as your counsel can
`attest, have initialed their own drawings.
` A. Yeah.
` Q. Is there something strange about this
`circumstance that's bothering you -- let me withdraw
`that.
` Sir, are you going to refuse to initial the
`lines that you drew?
` A. Yeah.
` Q. So you are refusing and will not initial
`the lines you drew; correct?
` It's a simple question, sir.
` A. Not -- not -- not -- you know...
` I've -- I've -- I've indicated that
`those...
` MR. MAIER: Move to strike.
` THE WITNESS: Could be considered part of
`the gap. I'm not excluding other dimensions --
`//
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`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. I -- I -- I --
` A. -- and I haven't -- I haven't made a
`representation that there aren't, you know, other --
`other dimensions.
` Q. Absolutely.
` A. The gap could be -- it has to be defined --
` MR. LAHAV: Just let him finish.
` THE WITNESS: -- in -- in -- in regard to a
`specific apparatus, and how -- whether -- whether
`that portion of that structure is really serving as
`the anode. And that has to be decided in terms of
`the specifics of the location of it and the
`conditions of the plasma, and so on.
` You know, I could say these lines could be
`part of the gap, but they're not definitively -- I
`am not saying that that's the only part of the gap.
` MR. MAIER: Move to strike as
`nonresponsive.
` Can we mark this as an exhibit?
` (Deposition Exhibit Number 1028 was marked
` for identification.)
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. All right. I just want it to be crystal
`clear for the Board, you have refused to initial the
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`lines that you drew; correct?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form, asked and
`answered.
` THE WITNESS: Yes.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Turn to Figure 1 of the '775 patent.
` A. I'm there.
` Q. Where is the required gap in Figure 1?
` A. Figure 1 is prior art.
` Q. Does it have a gap?
` A. Let me -- again, it's a depiction. It's --
`it's a very schematic depiction of an apparatus.
` Again, it's not -- you know, it's a very
`schematic picture. It's not showing any shielding
`whatsoever. So it's...
` It's -- it's -- it's going to have --
`it's -- it has a distance between them and a gap,
`but it's -- without further information, you know, I
`couldn't specify all the parts of that depiction
`of -- incomplete depiction of a structure as to what
`and where the gap would -- would be.
` Q. You don't know where the gap is in
`Figure 1?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: I say, I don't have enough
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`information to tell you -- to provide an opinion
`about that.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. The patent does not provide you enough
`information to determine where the gap is in
`Figure 1; that's your testimony?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Excuse me for a moment.
` Since you're asking if it provides me with
`information to determine that...
` (Witness reviewing document.)
` The answer to your question is, yes, it
`does not provide me enough information for me to
`determine what constitutes the gap.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. So you do not have the expertise that
`allows you to determine what in Figure 1 is the gap,
`using the information provided by the '775 patent;
`correct?
` A. I've already told you --
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form,
`mischaracterizes the testimony.
` Go ahead.
` THE WITNESS: That is a very schematic
`description of a structure. Without a more thorough
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`description, you know, I -- I can't provide that
`information.
` I need -- I need to determine it, you know,
`and it's -- I've already told you, the patent is not
`providing that information.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. So if a prior art patent provides the same
`level of information as the '775 does in connection
`with Figure 1, you don't know how to determine where
`the gap is in the prior art then either; right?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form,
`mischaracterizes the testimony.
` THE WITNESS: It depends on what level of
`depiction is provided in the prior art.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. You can't have it both ways, sir. Is --
`well, let's -- let's get the record clear.
` The '775 patent does not give you enough
`information for you to opine on whether Figure 1
`includes a gap or not; right?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form,
`mischaracterizes the testimony.
` THE WITNESS: That -- I said, there --
`there would be a gap. Determining the extent and
`dimensions of the gap would require more
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`information.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Can you find one example of the gap in
`Figure 1?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Again, it's -- it's very
`schematic. I don't know if -- it doesn't show any
`shielding, so I need -- would need more information.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. How does shielding affect your ability to
`identify the gap?
` A. Because it -- it can prevent current flow,
`so...
` Q. Is the gap between elements 130 and 114 of
`Figure 1 sufficient to allow current to flow between
`the anode and cathode in Figure 1?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: There would be current flow.
`Where it is and -- it's going to depend on more --
`you know, more detail.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. What detail?
` A. Shielding, for example.
` Q. Can you hand me the exhibit we marked up
`together?
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` I just want to initial my lines, if you're
`not going to initial yours, so there's no confusion.
` I'll hand it back to you, sir.
` Can you confirm that I've initialed the
`three red lines that I drew?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay.
` So if there is current flow in the space
`between a cathode and anode in a sputtering
`apparatus, does that mean there's a gap?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Current has to flow between a
`cathode and an anode in a sputtering apparatus. And
`so there's a gap.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Now, we were just talking about the term
`"means for ionizing a feed gas" at page 12 of your
`declaration.
` Do you recall that?
` A. A means for ionizing a volume of feed gas.
` Q. Well, there's actually two terms there.
` There's "means for ionizing a volume of
`feed gas" in Claim 37, but Claim 36 uses the term
`"means for ionizing a feed gas"; right?
` A. Yes.
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` Q. And you offered a -- your own construction
`for the term "means for ionizing a feed gas" in
`connection with the '775 patent; right?
` MR. LAHAV: Objection; asked and answered.
` THE WITNESS: Yes.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. The '773 patent we talked about yesterday
`uses the same term, "means for ionizing a feed gas";
`right?
` A. I would -- yeah, I would -- it uses the
`same term.
` I would need to be reminded of, you know,
`which claims that we were talking about.
` Q. You need to be reminded? Sure.
` Bear with me for one moment, sir.
` (Pause in the proceedings.)
` MR. MAIER: Let's go off the record for one
`second.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time now is
`10:54 a.m. We are off the record.
` (Recess taken.)
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time now is
`10:56 a.m. We are on the record.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. So I'll give you your declaration from the
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`'773 patent that we talked about yesterday.
` And to refresh your recollection, I'll
`direct to you paragraph 60.
` MR. LAHAV: Do you have one for me?
` Thank you.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. The last sentence of paragraph 60 -- well,
`the -- the last sentence on page 25 of your
`declaration states --
` A. Before you do that, I just want to...
` Okay. You were directing my attention
`to --
` Q. Page 25.
` Actually, what were you just looking at,
`sir?
` A. Well, we've -- we've been talking about
`what's a gap.
` Q. Oh, you're still on the previous questions?
` A. Yeah. And now we're talking about the
`means plus function claims, the --
` Q. Right. I've moved to a different line of
`questioning, sir.
` A. -- and I wasn't asked to form an opinion on
`those, 36 and 37. And I didn't state specifically
`about those in my declaration.
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` Q. Well, you did offer a construction for the
`term "ionizing a feed gas"; right?
` A. Yeah --
` MR. LAHAV: Objection to form.
` THE WITNESS: -- I did offer the
`construction of -- of adding the gap.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Right.
` You did that in connection with the '775
`patent; right?
` A. Correct.
` Q. Now, turn to paragraph 60 at page 25 of
`Exhibit 2005 that you have in front of you, which is
`in connection with the '773 patent.
` A. Paragraph 60 --
` Q. Page 25.
` A. -- page 25.
` Q. Here, you're again discussing the Board's
`claim constructions; right?
` A. For that -- for that patent.
` Q. Right. And the last sentence on page 25
`says:
` "The Board also ruled that the
` corresponding structure for performing the
` recited function - 'ionizing a feed gas to
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` generate a weakly-ionized plasma' - to be a
` power supply electrically connected to a
` cathode assembly and an anode."
` You see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. So for that construction of ionizing a feed
`gas, the Board there also didn't include the notion
`of a gap; right?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Same as in the '775 p
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