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`Page 1
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` THE GILLETTE COMPANY,
`
` Petitioner,
` Patent No. 8,125,155
` IPR 2014-00477
` vs. IPR 2014-00479
` ZOND, LLC,INC.,
` Patent Owner.
`-----------------------------------------------------
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF LARRY D. HARTSOUGH, Ph.D.
` Berkeley, California
` Thursday, February 12, 2015
`
`REPORTED BY:
`TAVIA MANNING, CSR No. 13294, CLR, CCRR, RPR
`JOB NO. 90257
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`IPR2014-00578
`Gillette v. Zond
`Gillette 1033
`
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`Page 1
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` THE GILLETTE COMPANY,
`
` Petitioner,
` Patent No. 8,125,155
` IPR 2014-00477
` vs. IPR 2014-00479
` ZOND, LLC,INC.,
` Patent Owner.
`-----------------------------------------------------
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF LARRY D. HARTSOUGH, Ph.D.
` Berkeley, California
` Thursday, February 12, 2015
`
`REPORTED BY:
`TAVIA MANNING, CSR No. 13294, CLR, CCRR, RPR
`JOB NO. 90257
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`IPR2014-00578
`Gillette v. Zond
`Gillette 1033
`
`
`
` February 12, 2015
` 9:00 A.M.
`
`Page 2
`
`Deposition of LARRY D. HARTSOUGH, Ph.D.,
`taken on behalf of Petitioners at 200
`Marina Boulevard, Berkeley, California,
`before Tavia Manning, Certified Shorthand
`Reporter No. 13294, Certified LiveNote
`Reporter, California Certified Realtime
`Reporter, Registered Professional Reporter.
`
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`Page 3
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`APPEARANCES:
`
`FOR TAIWAN SEMICONDUCTOR MANUFACTURING COMPANY,
`LIMITED and TSMC NORTH AMERICA and FUJITSU:
` HAYNES AND BOONE
` BY: DAVID McCOMBS, ESQ.
` 2323 Victory Avenue
` Dallas, TX 75219
`
`
`
`
`FOR THE GILLETTE COMPANY:
` WILMERHALE
` BY: COSMIN MAIER, ESQ.
` 7 World Trade Center
` 250 Greenwich Street
` New York, NY 10007
`
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`APPEARANCES (CONTINUED):
`
`FOR THE PATENT OWNER ZOND, LLC:
` RADULESCU
` BY: TIGRAN VARDANIAN, ESQ.
` The Empire State Building
` 350 Fifth Avenue
` New York, NY 10118
`
`
`
`Also present: Sean McGrath, Videographer
`
` ***
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` BERKELEY, CALIFORNIA;
` THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 12, 2015; 9:00 A.M.
`
`Page 5
`
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning.
` This is the beginning of Disk Number 1 of
`the videotaped deposition of Dr. Larry D. Hartsough,
`Ph.D., in the matter of the Gillette Company versus
`Zond, LLC, in the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office
`before the Patent Trial and Appeal Board, Cases
`2014-00477 and 2014-00479.
` This deposition is being held at 200 Marina
`Boulevard, Berkeley, California, on February 12th,
`2015 at approximately 9:00 a.m.
` My name is Sean McGrath from TSG Reporting,
`Incorporated, and I am the legal video specialist.
` The court reporter is Tavia Manning in
`association with TSG Reporting.
` Will counsel please introduce yourselves
`starting with the questioning attorney.
` MR. MAIER: Cosmin Maier, of WilmerHale, on
`behalf of The Gillette Company.
` MR. McCOMBS: David McCombs, with Haynes
`and Boone, on behalf of TSMC and Fujitsu.
` MR. VARDANIAN: Tigran Vardanian with
`Radulescu, LLP, on behalf of patent owner Zond, LLC.
`
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`Page 6
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court reporter
`please swear in the witness and then we can proceed.
`
` LARRY D. HARTSOUGH, Ph.D.,
` having been first duly sworn by the reporter,
` testified as follows:
`
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Good morning, sir.
` A. Good morning.
` Q. Now, you were deposed yesterday in
`connection the '184 patent; is that right?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. And you went over some ground rules at the
`beginning about how to do a deposition?
` A. Correct.
` Q. Would you like me to repeat those or do you
`remember them from yesterday?
` A. You can help remind me.
` Q. So I think the main, most important thing
`is that we don't talk over each other so the court
`reporter could -- could, you know, write everything
`down that we say and your attorney can have a chance
`to object. I think that we had a bit of a problem
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`with that yesterday, but happens in all -- all
`depositions.
` But is that fair that we try to do that?
` A. I'll try to do that.
` Q. And then, is there any reason that you
`can't give your best testimony today?
` A. No.
` Q. You're -- you're ready to give truthful and
`accurate testimony?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay.
` Now, did you do anything to prepare for
`today's deposition in connection with the '155
`patent?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form.
` Caution the witness not to reveal
`privileged information. To the extent you can
`answer without revealing such information, you can
`go ahead and do so.
` THE WITNESS: I -- I spent some time
`reviewing the patent and my declaration --
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Okay.
` A. -- and I met briefly with Mr. Vardanian
`this morning for about an hour.
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`Page 8
` Q. And you -- you testified yesterday that you
`prepared, in -- in preparation for yesterday's
`deposition, you had met with Zond's attorneys as
`well; right?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form, relevance.
` THE WITNESS: In preparation for
`yesterday's testimony, I testified that I had met
`with Zond's attorneys for that; is that what you're
`asking?
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Right.
` So the preparation in connection with
`yesterday's deposition did not involve preparation
`for the '155 patent?
` A. Well --
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form.
` Caution the witness not to reveal any
`privileged information --
` THE WITNESS: That's --
` MR. VARDANIAN: -- to the extent you can
`answer without revealing such information, you can
`go ahead and do so.
` THE WITNESS: To the extent that many of
`the documents are the same references and -- and
`cited prior art for both, that was part of the
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`preparation for this deposition as well.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. So I'm going to hand you your declaration
`in connection with the '155 patent.
` I'm going to give you this red pen as well.
` A. Could you hand me the -- the '155 patent as
`well? I'm sure I'll be wanting to refer to it.
` Q. Well, let's wait until we get there.
` Could you take the red pen and put a big
`"A" on the front page of your declaration?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Is that -- what's the reason
`for that?
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Well, it doesn't matter the reason, but
`could you -- could you comply?
` I'm just asking you -- we're going to have
`a lot of papers that don't have exhibit numbers, so
`I feel like it's going to be easier for us to
`identify them if we can just say "the one with the
`big 'A' on it," "the one with the big 'B' on it."
` A. So --
` MR. VARDANIAN: Well, I'm going to object
`to this. There is a court reporter willing to mark
`the exhibits. This --
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` MR. MAIER: Do you want to mark his
`declaration?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Huh?
` MR. MAIER: You want to mark his
`declaration?
` MR. VARDANIAN: So there is a court
`reporter that typically that -- you know, marks --
`well, what's -- what's the point of having --
` MR. MAIER: To make it easier when there's
`a bunch of papers.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. All right. Let's leave it at this. Let's
`leave it at this: You have your declaration;
`correct?
` A. This you can refer to as my declaration.
` Q. And you'll -- you'll know what I'm talking
`about?
` A. Yeah.
` Q. Okay. So turn to Paragraph 7 of your
`declaration.
` A. Yes.
` Q. Now, you're talking about some of the work
`that you've done in your career in, you know, plasma
`processes and equipment here; is that correct?
` A. That's correct.
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` Q. And you refer to two sputter deposition
`systems about the middle of the paragraph?
` A. Right.
` MR. VARDANIAN: Which paragraph are we
`talking about?
` MR. MAIER: Seven.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Do you see where you refer to two sputter
`deposition systems?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Which systems are you referring to there?
` A. When we -- the system that -- that was
`developed by Griffin Products, when I was the
`engineering manager for them. That was our start-up
`company.
` And the system for General Signal ThinFilm,
`we -- they shut the -- I did that for two years, and
`it was not released to manufacturing because they
`shut the whole -- they had shut the whole division
`down.
` Q. So the system that you worked on for
`General Signal ThinFilm did not eventually become a
`commercial product; correct?
` MR. VARDANIAN: So I just -- just want to
`caution the witness not to reveal any confidential
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`information that's owed to third parties.
` To the -- to the extent you can answer
`without doing so, you can go ahead and do so.
` THE WITNESS: It -- it did -- it did not
`become a commercial product.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. What about the one that you worked on at
`Griffin Products; was it a commercial product?
` A. It was.
` MR. VARDANIAN: Same caution.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. When did you work on the system for Griffin
`Products?
` A. Well, in terms of my -- I just want to
`refresh -- tell you the accurate dates by referring
`back here.
` I worked on the system between -- basically
`between 1981 and '84, when that was in the initial
`phases of Griffin Products. And it -- it's
`described there as I led the engineering, the
`prototyping and the initial testing of the
`magnetron's sputtering system.
` Q. And the same question for General Signal
`ThinFilm, when did you work on that product?
` A. Between 1990 -- 1988 and 1990.
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`Page 13
` Q. Do you recall the type of power supply used
`with the General Signal ThinFilm sputtering unit?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form.
` And caution the witness not to reveal
`confidential information that's owed to third
`parties. To the extent that you can answer without
`doing so, you can go ahead and do so.
` THE WITNESS: It was a DC magnetron
`sputtering supply.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Was it a pulsed power supply?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: No.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Have you ever worked with a pulsed power
`supply?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: No.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. So it would follow that you've never worked
`with a power supply that allowed you to change
`voltage amplitude; correct?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form,
`mischaracterizes testimony.
` THE WITNESS: That's not -- not correct.
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`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. You've never worked with a pulsed power
`supply; correct?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form, asked and
`answered.
` THE WITNESS: That's correct.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. And, therefore, you've never worked with a
`pulsed power supply that could control the amplitude
`of a voltage pulse?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form,
`mischaracterizes testimony.
` THE WITNESS: I've never worked with a
`pulsed power supply.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Including a pulsed power supply that could
`generate power pulses; correct?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form,
`mischaracterizes testimony.
` THE WITNESS: It follows. I mean, if I
`haven't worked with a pulsed power supply, I haven't
`worked with a pulsed power supply.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Understood. I'm just trying to get the
`clear record.
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` Now, when you were developing the system
`for General Signal ThinFilm, what did your work
`involve? What did you do to develop that system?
` A. That really gets into some areas that are
`proprietary, but I managed a team of -- it included
`a physicist, engineers, software engineers, you
`know, technical people, and so on, to develop the
`concepts, which -- some of which were, you know,
`unusual and new and I -- I can't talk about. But --
`and to -- let me see if I mentioned it in here, even
`in the -- yeah, I did mention that it was a cluster
`tool.
` The concept of cluster tools was brand new
`in the late 1980s, and so the development of the
`concept and actual actualizing of it was part of the
`challenge as well.
` Q. So, yeah, I'm -- I'm not interested in any
`confidential details or anything, I am mostly
`focused on the word "development" in your
`declaration.
` What did you mean -- what do you mean by
`"developing" --
` A. That's part --
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: It was new technology, which
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`needed to be developed.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. And how do you develop technology?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form, relevance.
` THE WITNESS: Well, it can take a -- a -- a
`lot of work to conceptualize what you want to do,
`figure out how you're going do it, build prototypes,
`test them, see if they do what you want to do.
` So it's a fairly -- in this case, fairly
`long process.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. So how do you go about figuring out how
`you're going to do it, to use your words?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form.
` Objection; relevance.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Do you consult reference materials?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Sorry. Are you withdrawing
`the previous question or...
` MR. MAIER: Yeah, it didn't sound like he
`understood it, so --
` THE WITNESS: Well --
` MR. MAIER: -- just -- okay.
` THE WITNESS: I have to -- I have to --
` MR. VARDANIAN: Wait one second.
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` MR. MAIER: Let me -- let me start a new
`question. Let me just start over.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Sir, how do you go about developing the
`product?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form.
` Objection; relevance.
` THE WITNESS: What do you mean "How do you
`go about"? You mean, all the steps?
` Well, you know, you -- you -- you get the
`marketing people to tell you what they think the
`market wants, you consult with your team, come up
`with the ideas of the ways to deliver that,
`conceptualize the technology.
` That's why I have engineers and physicists,
`and so on, on the team, and not that I didn't do it
`myself, but I'm saying that it can be a -- a fairly
`complicated effort.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. I think you mentioned yesterday that you
`consulted certain textbooks to bring yourself up to
`speed in the field. Do you recall that?
` A. Well, it's --
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: That's not exactly what I
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`said.
` I consulted certain textbooks to see if
`they were relevant to the specific areas of -- or to
`see if they had anything to tell me about the
`specific areas that I didn't already know or remind
`me of things that I did already know.
` And I -- or the -- in the textbooks that I
`consulted that I -- that are in my library, there
`wasn't really much that was going to affect my
`opinions or add to the -- to the background that I
`needed to -- to have to -- to form my opinions.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. And when developing a product, do you
`similarly consult references in the field,
`textbooks, things like that?
` A. When --
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form.
` Objection; relevance.
` And, I mean, I -- I -- I'd like to see --
`I'm going to give you a little bit more leeway with
`this question, but, you know, this is at -- at the
`level of, you know, stratosphere, so...
` MR. MAIER: Well, if -- we're talking about
`particular things he mentioned in his declaration,
`so please stop interfering.
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` THE WITNESS: Could you -- could you tell
`me what you're -- what you're talking about that I
`mentioned in my declaration?
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. You mentioned you --
` A. I --
` Q. -- developed --
` A. -- developed.
` Q. Yeah, right. And -- and I'm trying to get
`a sense for what you mean by you "developed" these
`products.
` A. I --
` Q. What -- what type of work do you --
` A. I thought I already -- already told you
`that, but --
` Q. I'm trying to dive in a little deeper.
` MR. VARDANIAN: So objection to form, to
`the extent there is a question pending.
` Objection; relevance.
` And, again, caution the witness not to
`reveal any third-party confidential information. If
`you can answer the question without doing so, you
`can go ahead and do so.
` MR. MAIER: So -- so there -- there wasn't
`a question pending, but I'll -- I'll ask a new one.
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`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Do you consult reference materials when
`developing a new product, such as the one at General
`Signal ThinFilm?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form.
` Objection; relevance.
` And, again, same caution with respect to
`third-party confidential information.
` THE WITNESS: That all depends. I mean,
`that if -- if -- if it's some information that I
`need to look up, I might. But it -- you've made it
`sound, you know, as that's what you always do. You
`might not have to, you might have to, depending on
`the situation.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Fair enough. And in the systems -- in the
`circumstances when you do have to look up reference
`materials, where would you go to find those
`reference materials?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form.
` Objection; relevance.
` Yet, again, same caution about the
`third-party confidential information.
` THE WITNESS: Again, there are lots of
`sources.
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`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Libraries?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Same objections.
` THE WITNESS: I have access to libraries.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Internet?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Same objections.
` THE WITNESS: You know, there -- there are
`many sources.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Now, turn to paragraph 24 of your
`declaration, please.
` Now, you say, about close to the bottom:
` "I have not been asked to study or analyze
` any secondary considerations of
` nonobviousness."
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. So you did not consider any secondary
`considerations of nonobviousness; correct?
` A. As I understood the meaning of secondary
`considerations to say commercial success of -- of
`the thing, or something like that, I had -- did not.
` Q. Okay. And you've provided no opinion
`regarding any secondary considerations of
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`nonobviousness; correct?
` A. Well, not to my understanding or...
` Q. Okay. I am going to give you another
`exhibit. This will be Zond's preliminary response
`to the 477 IPR.
` Have you seen this document before?
` A. I have.
` Q. Turn to page 12.
` A. You gave me the -- you gave me the wrong
`document.
` I'm trying to --
` Q. That's -- that's why I wanted to mark them
`with letters.
` MR. VARDANIAN: That's why there is a court
`reporter here.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Let me know when you're there.
` A. I'm on page 12.
` Q. Now, on page 12, Zond offers a construction
`for the claim limitation:
` "Generating at the output a voltage pulse
` having at least one of a controlled
` amplitude and a controlled rise time."
` Do you see that?
` A. That's part of the claim language.
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` Q. And Zond represented to the board that this
`was the broadest reasonable construction of that
`claim limitation proposed in the box to the right?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: They state in the preceding
`sentence, "The broadest reasonable construction of
`this phrase is as follows," and -- so they're
`talking about the broadest construction would be the
`wording on the -- to the right, and you've -- you've
`read me the -- the wording on the left, so...
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. All right. So the -- Zond proposed that
`the broadest reasonable construction of the phrase
`in the box on the left under "Claim Language at
`Issue" was the language on the right in the box
`under "Proposed Construction"; correct?
` A. And the --
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: And the -- and you were
`asking me if the language on the left was the
`broadest reasonable construction.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. No, maybe I confused you.
` So --
` A. So I -- that's not what it says on the
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`right, so maybe I misunderstood your question.
` Q. Let -- let me ask it again:
` Zond represented to the board that:
` "The construction generating at the output
` a voltage pulse whose amplitude and/or rise
` time are directed or restrained to increase
` an ionization rate of sputtered ion
` material atoms so that a rapid increase in
` electron density in a formation of a
` strongly-ionized plasma occurs without
` forming an arc."
` Did I read that correctly?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form,
`mischaracterizes the record.
` THE WITNESS: That's the proposed
`construction.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Right.
` And Zond said that that was the broadest
`reasonable construction; correct?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Well, it's -- it's -- since
`both follow, they -- and one says "claim language"
`and one says "construction," that -- that the one on
`the right is the broadest reasonable construction
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`that they proposed.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Did you see this construction before Zond
`submitted it to the board?
` A. I was not involved in -- in it -- in --
`what -- what date was this?
` Q. June 9th, 2014.
` A. Oh. No.
` Q. So you were -- you did not see this
`construction before it was submitted to the board;
`correct?
` A. I -- I did not see this construction until
`much later.
` Q. Now, the board ultimately adopted the
`construction proposed by Zond; correct?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: I would have to --
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; foundation.
` THE WITNESS: I'd have to read the board's
`decision on that.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Handing you the institutional decision in
`the 477 IPR. Turn to the bottom of page 9.
` The last sentence at the bottom of page 9
`says -- and it follows on the second page, so -- on
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`the tenth page, so I'll read it:
` "We are persuaded that on this record the
` proper construction is the broadest
` reasonable construction supported by the
` specification of the 155 patent."
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. So that confirms that the board adopted
`Zond's construction as the broadest reasonable
`construction; correct?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: That -- that's what the board
`adopted, yes.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. And if you go to paragraph 22 of your
`declaration.
` And if you turn to page 9, because the
`paragraph kind of goes on to page 9, you see the --
`the sentence that says, "However, I understand"?
` A. Yes.
` Q. "However, I understand that the board also
` concluded that the claimed pulse control
` encompasses any change in voltage amplitude
` that is incidental to directing a pulse to
` a target power level or set point as in
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` Wang regardless of whether the voltage
` amplitude is the parameter under control."
` Did I read that correctly?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And you disagree with that conclusion by
`the board; correct?
` A. We --
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: We discussed this yesterday,
`that the board seemed to misunderstand the
`distinctions between the power pulse of Wang and
`the -- and the voltage pulse of the Chistyakov
`patent, and that Wang proposed an additional
`clarification to that construction.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Did you say Wang proposed the --
` A. I'm sorry.
` Q. -- clarification?
` A. Zond proposed. I misspoke.
` Q. Let me ask it again to get a clear record,
`give you a chance to answer.
` A. So and -- and that Zond proposed the
`following clarification to the board's tentative
`construction.
` Q. Okay. And so you disagree with the
`
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`conclusion reached by the board; correct?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form,
`mischaracterizes the record.
` THE WITNESS: I think the -- the board
`misunderstood the distinction.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. And, therefore, you disagree with what the
`board concluded, as you've stated here?
` A. Well, it was an -- an attempt to clarify
`their misunderstanding, and...
` Q. So here, you're offering a clarified claim
`construction for the limitation; correct?
` A. I am not offering.
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection.
` If you can give me time to object.
` Objection; form, mischaracterizes the
`record.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Zond is offering a clarified construction;
`correct?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Same objections.
` THE WITNESS: They -- they are proposing
`it. They proposed it.
` And as I stated in the next page, for the
`purposes of this declaration, I used that proposed
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`clarified interpretation to compare the
`descriptions.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Okay. So you did not use the construction
`adopted by the board; correct?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form,
`mischaracterizes testimony.
` THE WITNESS: I didn't say that.
` It's -- it's a -- it's a -- in -- I
`understood the construction proposed by Zond and
`adopted by the board, but apparently, they -- the --
`you know, the -- what do they call it, the panel
`didn't.
` So I could use either one and understand
`that the first one means that it is the same as the
`second one, but it does clarify the misunderstanding
`where the board felt that power pulse controls
`voltage.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Sir, you did not apply the board's
`construction; right?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form,
`mischaracterizes testimony.
` THE WITNESS: I applied -- I applied the
`proposed construction, which means, my -- in my
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`understanding, it's the same. The panel
`misunderstood.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Right.
` But the panel adopted a construction;
`correct?
` A. They did.
` MR. VARDANIAN: Object.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. And the panel's construction concluded that
`the claimed pulse control encompasses any change in
`voltage amplitude that is incidental to directing a
`pulse to a target power level, as in Wang; correct?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Did you say that was part of
`a construction?
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. No, that's -- the board adopted a
`construction; correct?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: They -- they concluded that
`the -- that -- that conclusion was not part of that
`construction. They misunderstood and said that that
`construction, which I agreed with, did something
`that it doesn't do.
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` So I'm not disagreeing with the
`construction, I'm just -- or disagreeing with the
`claim construction that the board adopted.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. You're not disagreeing?
` A. I'm -- I --
` MR. VARDANIAN: I don't think he finished
`answering the question.
` THE WITNESS: Maybe I don't understand the
`question.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Sir, the board adopted a construction that
`is different from the proposed clarified
`construction; correct?
` A. Correct.
` MR. VARDANIAN: Object.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Because otherwise there would be no need to
`propose a clarified construction; correct?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form,
`mischaracterizes testimony.
` And you need to give me time to object
`before you answer, please.
` MR. MAIER: I'll strike that -- that last
`question.
`
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`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. Now, turn -- turn to paragraph 19 of your
`declaration.
` Let me know when you've had a chance to
`review it.
` A. (Witness reviewing document.)
` Q. Here you're discussing the level of
`ordinary skill in the art; correct?
` A. I'm not quite finished reviewing it.
` Q. Sorry. Take your time.
` A. Okay.
` Q. You define the level of ordinary skill as:
` "A person who holds at least a bachelor of
` science degree in physics, material
` science, or electrical/computer engineering
` with at least two years of work experience
` or equivalent in the field of development
` of plasma-based processing equipment."
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. That's the level of ordinary skill you
`applied to your invalidity analysis; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What do you mean by "at least"?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form.
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` THE WITNESS: And I -- I've used it twice.
` Are you concerned with one or the other?
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. I'm actually concerned with both. I'm just
`wondering, what did you -- what did you mean by "at
`least"?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Well, there are -- there are
`degrees of higher education that are higher than a
`bachelor degree. And there are, obviously, years of
`experience that are more than two years.
`BY MR. MAIER:
` Q. So the level of ordinary skill can
`encompass degrees higher than a bachelor's; correct?
` MR. VARDANIAN: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS:
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