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`Capital Reporting Company
`DeVito, Richard 12-11-2014
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`---------------------------------:
`THE GILLETTE COMPANY; TAIWAN :
`SEMICONDUCTOR MANUFACTURING :
`COMPANY, LTD.; TSMC NORTH : Case No.:
`AMERICA CORP.; FUJITSU : IPR2014-00604
`SEMICONDUCTOR LIMITED; and :
`FUJITSU SEMICONDUCTOR : Case No.:
`AMERICA, INC. : IPR2014-00578
` :
` Petitioners :
` :
` V :
` :
`ZOND, LLC :
` :
` Patent Owner :
`---------------------------------:
` Boston, Massachusetts
` Thursday, December 11, 2014
`Deposition of:
`
` RICHARD DeVITO,
`called for oral examination by counsel for Patent
`Owner, pursuant to notice, at Wilmer Cutler
`Pickering Hale and Dorr, 60 State Street, Boston,
`Massachusetts, before Elizabeth O. Bailey, CSR, of
`Capital Reporting Company, a Notary Public in and
`for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, beginning at
`9:12 a.m., when were present on behalf of the
`respective parties:
`
`(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014
`
`Gillette et al. v. Zond
`IPR2014-00578 Zond Ex. 2004
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`
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`Capital Reporting Company
`DeVito, Richard 12-11-2014
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`---------------------------------:
`THE GILLETTE COMPANY; TAIWAN :
`SEMICONDUCTOR MANUFACTURING :
`COMPANY, LTD.; TSMC NORTH : Case No.:
`AMERICA CORP.; FUJITSU : IPR2014-00604
`SEMICONDUCTOR LIMITED; and :
`FUJITSU SEMICONDUCTOR : Case No.:
`AMERICA, INC. : IPR2014-00578
` :
` Petitioners :
` :
` V :
` :
`ZOND, LLC :
` :
` Patent Owner :
`---------------------------------:
` Boston, Massachusetts
` Thursday, December 11, 2014
`Deposition of:
`
` RICHARD DeVITO,
`called for oral examination by counsel for Patent
`Owner, pursuant to notice, at Wilmer Cutler
`Pickering Hale and Dorr, 60 State Street, Boston,
`Massachusetts, before Elizabeth O. Bailey, CSR, of
`Capital Reporting Company, a Notary Public in and
`for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, beginning at
`9:12 a.m., when were present on behalf of the
`respective parties:
`
`(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014
`
`Gillette et al. v. Zond
`IPR2014-00578 Zond Ex. 2004
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`2
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`Capital Reporting Company
`DeVito, Richard 12-11-2014
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`1 A P P E A R A N C E S
`2 On Behalf of Petitioner The Gillette Company:
`3 COSMIN MAIER, ESQUIRE
` Wilmer Cutler Pickering Hale and Dorr, LLP
`4 7 World Trade Center
` 250 Greenwich Street
`5 New York, New York, 10007
`6 LARISSA BIFANO PARK, ESQUIRE
` Wilmer Cutler Pickering Hale and Dorr, LLP
`7 60 State Street
` Boston, Massachusetts, 02109
`
`8 9
`
`On Behalf of Petitioner Taiwan Semiconductor
` Manufacturing Company, Ltd., and TSMC North
`10 America Corp.:
`11 ANTHONY J. FITZPATRICK, ESQUIRE
` Duane Morris, LLP
`12 470 Atlantic Avenue
` Suite 500
`13 Boston, Massachusetts, 02210
`14
`On Behalf of Patent Owner:
`15
` TIGRAN VARDANIAN, ESQUIRE
`16 MICHAEL SADOWITZ, ESQUIRE
` Radulescu, LLP
`17 The Empire State Building
` 350 Fifth Avenue
`18 Suite 6910
` New York, New York, 10118
`19
` TAREK N. FAHMI, ESQUIRE
`20 Ascenda Law Group
` 84 W. Santa Clara Street,
`21 Suite 550
` San Jose, California, 95113
`22
`23 ALSO PRESENT:
`24 Craig Newman - Video Reporter
` Capital Reporting Company
`25
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`Capital Reporting Company
`DeVito, Richard 12-11-2014
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`1 C O N T E N T S
`2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
`3 Counsel for Patent Owner 5
`
`4 5
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` E X H I B I T S
`6 DeVITO DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: PAGE
`7 1001 775 Patent 22
`8 1002 Paper by Mozgrin 85
`9 1006 Paper by Kudryavstev 103
`10 1008 382 Patent 37
`11 1011 Declaration 54
`12 1014 265 Patent 98
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25 (Exhibits retained by counsel.)
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`Capital Reporting Company
`DeVito, Richard 12-11-2014
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`1 P R O C E E D I N G S
`2 VIDEO REPORTER: We are now recording and
`3 on the record. My name is Craig Newman. I'm a
`4 legal video specialist on behalf of the Capital
`5 Reporting Company.
`6 Today is December 11, 2014, and the time
`7 is approximately 9:12 a.m. This is the deposition
`8 of Richard DeVito. This case is for the United
`9 States Patent and Trademark Office before the
`10 Patent Trial and Appeal Board. It is case number
`11 IPR2014-00578.
`12 It's entitled, "The Gillette Company,
`13 Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company Limited,
`14 TSMC North America Corp., Fujitsu Semiconductor
`15 Limited, and Fujitsu Semiconductor America, Inc.,
`16 Petitioners, versus Zond," that's Z-O-N-D, "LLC,
`17 Patent Owner.
`18 This deposition is being taken at Wilmer
`19 Cutler Pickering Hale and Dorr at 60 State Street
`20 in Boston on behalf of the patent owner. The court
`21 reporter is Beth Bailey with Capital Reporting.
`22 At this point, counsel will please state
`23 their appearances, and the court reporter will
`24 administer the oath.
`25 MR. VARDANIAN: Tigran Vardanian,
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`1 Radulescu, LLP, on behalf of Zond, LLC. With me is
`2 my colleague, Michael Sadowitz, also with
`3 Radulescu, LLP, also on behalf of Zond, LLC.
`4 MR. FAHMI: Tarek Fahmi of the Ascenda
`5 Law Group on behalf of Zond.
`6 MR. MAIER: Cosmin Maier of Wilmer Hale
`7 on behalf of petitioner The Gillette Company, and
`8 with me is my colleague, Larissa Park, also of
`9 Wilmer Hale.
`10 MR. FIZPATRICK: Anthony Fitzpatrick from
`11 Duane Morris on behalf of Taiwan Semiconductor
`12 Manufacturing Company Limited and TSMC America.
`13 WHEREUPON,
`14 RICHARD DeVITO
`15 called as a witness, and having been satisfactorily
`16 identified by the production of his Massachusetts
`17 driver's license and duly sworn, testifies as
`18 follows:
`19 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE PATENT OWNER
`20 BY MR. VARDANIAN:
`21 Q Good morning, Mr. DeVito.
`22 A Good morning.
`23 Q Will you please state your full name and
`24 address for the record?
`25 A Richard DeVito, 11 Parkside Drive,
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`Capital Reporting Company
`DeVito, Richard 12-11-2014
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`1 Jamaica Plain, Mass.
`2 Q So, I know you've given a deposition
`3 before in November -- late November, and I think
`4 you mentioned back then that you also testified in
`5 a divorce case. Is that correct?
`6 A Yes.
`7 Q So, other than the deposition that you --
`8 the testimony you provided in November and the
`9 divorce case, did you provide any testimony in any
`10 other proceeding?
`11 A I have not.
`12 Q So, I know you've been through the drill
`13 before, but I'll go through some basic rules of
`14 deposition with you if you don't mind.
`15 A That's fine.
`16 Q Do you understand that I'm going to be
`17 asking you questions today?
`18 A I do.
`19 Q You understand that you have an
`20 obligation to answer my questions?
`21 A I do.
`22 Q You understand that, from time to time,
`23 your attorney may object to my questions?
`24 A I do.
`25 Q Do you understand that, nevertheless, you
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`1 have an obligation to answer those questions?
`2 A I do.
`3 Q The only instance where you do not have
`4 to answer my questions is if the attorney objects
`5 for attorney-client privilege or work product. Do
`6 you understand that?
`7 A I do.
`8 Q If you need a break at any time, please
`9 let me know, and we will be happy to go on a break.
`10 A Great.
`11 Q One exception is if there's a question
`12 pending, I will ask you to answer the question
`13 before we go on the break. Is that okay?
`14 A That's fine.
`15 Q If I ask you a question that you don't
`16 understand, please let me know, and I'll rephrase
`17 or I'll repeat the question. Is that okay?
`18 A That's fine.
`19 Q If you answer a question, I'm going to
`20 assume you understood it. Is that all right with
`21 you?
`22 A That's fine.
`23 Q You will tell the truth today, right?
`24 A I will tell the truth.
`25 Q Are you taking any medication today that
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`1 may impair your ability to testify truthfully
`2 today?
`3 A I am not.
`4 Q Is there any other reason why you are not
`5 able to testify truthfully today?
`6 A There is not.
`7 Q So, we are here today in connection with
`8 US patent number 6,896,775, to which I will be
`9 referring to as 775 patent. That's okay with you?
`10 A That's fine.
`11 Q You understand which patent I'm talking
`12 about?
`13 A I do.
`14 Q Before we jump into the, you know,
`15 substance of the patent, I wanted to ask you -- I
`16 was taught that there are four states of matter.
`17 Is that correct?
`18 MR. MAIER: Objection. Foundation.
`19 A I was taught the same so...
`20 Q You agree with me?
`21 A Yes.
`22 Q What are the four states of matter?
`23 A There's -- well, the plasma is the one
`24 that I'm going to talk about today. So, I don't
`25 recall the other four states, but plasma is the one
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`DeVito, Richard 12-11-2014
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`1 I'm here to talk about.
`2 Q Your testimony today is that you don't
`3 recall the other four -- the other three states
`4 other than plasma? That's what you're saying?
`5 A There is a solid. There is the liquid.
`6 There is the plasma. Solid, liquid, and vapor.
`7 Vapor phase.
`8 Q Or gas?
`9 A Gas.
`10 Q So, solid, liquid, gas, and plasma.
`11 That's fair?
`12 A That's fair, I guess. Yes.
`13 Q Solid and liquid are different states,
`14 right?
`15 A They -- yes.
`16 Q Gas and liquid are different states,
`17 right?
`18 A Yes.
`19 Q Solid and gas are different states,
`20 right?
`21 A Yes.
`22 Q And gas and plasma are different states,
`23 right?
`24 A Yes.
`25 Q So, if you see, in a reference, a
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`1 reference to gas, would one of ordinary skill in
`2 the art that's relevant to this petition read gas
`3 and think plasma?
`4 MR. MAIER: Objection. Form.
`5 A It depends on the context of how it's
`6 used. I mean a neutral gas is a gas, and once it's
`7 ionized, it becomes a plasma.
`8 Q So, your testimony today is that once you
`9 ionize gas, it necessarily becomes plasma. That's
`10 your testimony?
`11 A Yes.
`12 Q Your testimony is that there isn't an
`13 ionized gas that isn't plasma. Is that right?
`14 A There isn't -- there isn't an ionized
`15 gas. I'm just trying to understand the question.
`16 Could you repeat that again?
`17 Q Sure. Let me see if I can do it from a
`18 different angle. So, we take gas, neutral gas,
`19 right?
`20 A Uh-huh.
`21 Q We start ionizing that gas?
`22 A Uh-huh.
`23 Q Does it immediately become plasma?
`24 MR. MAIER: Objection. Form.
`25 A I mean -- I mean -- I think you're
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`DeVito, Richard 12-11-2014
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`1 talking about time scales here when you say
`2 immediate. I don't know what you mean by that.
`3 To the human being, when you put a gas in
`4 a chamber and you press your power supply, to the
`5 human eye, it appears instantaneous, right, but
`6 there are things that are going on in the
`7 microscopic and subatomic level that takes some
`8 time for excitation, for ionization. So, immediate
`9 is a relative term, I guess.
`10 Q So, I guess what I'm trying to understand
`11 is: Is there ionized gas -- strike that. Is there
`12 gas that's ionized to an extent where it hasn't
`13 turned into plasma?
`14 MR. MAIER: Objection to form.
`15 A Well, I guess the only way I can answer
`16 that question -- I mean there are different types
`17 of ionized -- there are different levels of
`18 ionization.
`19 You could have weakly ionized. You could
`20 have highly ionized. You could have intermediate.
`21 So, it depends on where your cut off is, and I
`22 don't know where that cut off could be.
`23 Q So, you agree that you can ionize gas to
`24 some degree without turning the gas into a plasma,
`25 correct?
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`1 A No. I didn't say that. I mean you could
`2 have -- it depends on what your definition is. I
`3 mean -- so, if I have a gas and I have -- you know,
`4 this room is filled with cosmic rays, and there's
`5 ionization going on. So, is that an ionized gas?
`6 Probably not.
`7 Q Why not?
`8 A Well, there's a level of ionization in
`9 there. If that were the truth, then there would be
`10 no gas phase, right. It would all be -- there
`11 would only be three phases of matter, right.
`12 Q So, you're agreeing that gas can have
`13 ions in it and not be plasma, correct?
`14 A In the context of the fact that there are
`15 high-energy particles all around us causing -- I
`16 mean that would have to be correct. I mean...
`17 Q So, if one of ordinary skill in the art
`18 that's relevant -- actually, before we get to that
`19 question. So, how do you define a person of
`20 ordinary skill in the art in the context of the 775
`21 patent?
`22 A Someone who knows and understands the
`23 references that are associated with the technology
`24 and the patents.
`25 Q What kind of an educational background
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`1 should this person have, in your opinion?
`2 A Well, it's a combination, I think, of
`3 experience in the field and education as well.
`4 Q Can you be more specific about both
`5 experience and education?
`6 A What do you mean? Like years or degree
`7 level?
`8 Q Sure. Both. I guess we judge experience
`9 in years and education in degrees. So, let's start
`10 with education.
`11 A So, I think probably -- bachelor's,
`12 master's degree, certainly a Ph.D., and, you know,
`13 depending on the level of education, the years
`14 could vary. It's very subjective.
`15 I mean I have 30 years' experience and a
`16 master's degree, and I consider myself a person of
`17 ordinary skill; and at the time, I had a master's
`18 degree and maybe 15, 20 years' experience, and I
`19 still considered myself the same.
`20 Certainly, you should be working in the
`21 field, which I am and was at the time so...
`22 Q Right. So, let's put you aside. Let's
`23 try to figure out what is the minimal educational
`24 background a person of ordinary skill in the art
`25 would need to be able to be considered a person of
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`1 ordinary skill in the art for the purposes of the
`2 775 patent.
`3 MR. MAIER: Object to form.
`4 A I can't sit here and define a boundary
`5 right now. When I was -- at the time, I had the
`6 amount of experience and the degree level and I
`7 understood the literature, and that's how I came to
`8 that decision so...
`9 Q Okay. You don't need to be defensive
`10 about your background. I'm just trying to
`11 understand.
`12 A I'm not being defensive.
`13 Q So, you understand in order for -- let me
`14 strike that. So, you're providing some of your
`15 opinions in this proceeding from the vantage point
`16 of a person of ordinary skill in the art, correct?
`17 A Right.
`18 Q In fact, that term or some variations of
`19 that term are all over your declarations, correct?
`20 A Yes.
`21 Q So, what I would like to understand is
`22 precisely who is this person of ordinary skill in
`23 the art with respect to that person's educational
`24 background and experience or combination thereof.
`25 A Again, I don't know if I can give a
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`1 precise definition. For example, there could be
`2 some people with a master's degree that could have
`3 five years' experience, and they could be very good
`4 and they could work in the field at a very good
`5 company, and they certainly could be considered a
`6 person of ordinary skill. There's just a lot of
`7 variation there, and I can't give an exact
`8 criterion.
`9 Q So, a master's degree in philosophy would
`10 be sufficient?
`11 A No. I think that we talked about a
`12 degree in an engineering field, physics, chemical
`13 engineering. You know, a lot of the engineering
`14 degrees would apply. Probably not mechanical
`15 engineering.
`16 I happen to be a physicist. You know, a
`17 physicist or a chemical engineer, an electrical
`18 engineer working in the field for some number of
`19 years doing the specific type of sputtering or
`20 related work in plasma physics.
`21 Q So, a master's degree in physics and
`22 certain areas of engineering is sufficient with
`23 respect to a minimum educational background for a
`24 person of ordinary skill in the art. Is that your
`25 testimony?
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`DeVito, Richard 12-11-2014
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`1 A Well, no. It's not exactly my testimony.
`2 That's one. Again, like I say, it's tough to put a
`3 precise definition. That's one definition I'm
`4 using right now.
`5 Q Why is it tough to put a precise
`6 definition of one of ordinary skill in the art?
`7 A You know, everybody is different. I can
`8 only -- I know some people who are very good. I
`9 know some people who are exceptionally good.
`10 I just can't give a precise definition
`11 except that, you know, it's a combination of years
`12 and education and working in the field, and the
`13 education, of course, has to be of a relevant
`14 nature.
`15 Q So, is it fair to say that whether a
`16 person qualifies as a person of ordinary skill in
`17 the art for the purpose of the 775 patent or not
`18 depends on each particular individual. Is that
`19 fair?
`20 A That's --
`21 MR. MAIER: Object to the form.
`22 A Could you make it -- could you rephrase
`23 the question so it's not as long so I could get a
`24 grasp on it?
`25 Q Right. So, I think you mentioned that it
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`1 depends on the particular person whether a person
`2 is a person of ordinary skill in the art for the
`3 purposes of the 775 patent or not. Is that fair?
`4 A Depends on the person and their
`5 background. Yes.
`6 Q Right. You can't define, you know,
`7 precise parameters of education and experience of
`8 that person that would necessarily make, you know,
`9 your definition of a person of ordinary skill in
`10 the art, correct?
`11 A Right, but I gave you a range. That's
`12 the best I can do.
`13 Q So, let me ask you this: If there's a
`14 person with master's degree in physics and 30 years
`15 of experience in -- with magnetron-sputtering
`16 equipment, does that necessarily qualify the person
`17 to be one of ordinary skill in the art, in your
`18 opinion?
`19 A Certainly, I can't know what he -- what
`20 this imaginary person was working on, but certainly
`21 at the level you've specified, at the 50,000-foot
`22 level, the person possibly could be.
`23 Q So, what about the person with high
`24 school diploma as the highest level of academic
`25 achievement and 30 years of working with
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`1 magnetron-sputtering equipment?
`2 A I don't know. That's a lot of
`3 speculation on my part, but I can just give you my
`4 opinion that some of these concepts may be too
`5 difficult to grasp. So, I'm not sure if he would
`6 be capable.
`7 Q Can you explain to me what plasma is?
`8 A Just in general terms?
`9 Q Sure. Let me be more precise. What
`10 would one of ordinary skill in the art relevant to
`11 the 775 patent understand plasma to be?
`12 A So, I think you would just go to the
`13 basic definition of a plasma, and it's just a
`14 collection of, you know, neutral gas particles,
`15 ionized gas particles, and electrons; and
`16 typically, people speak of plasmas being in
`17 quasi-equilibrium.
`18 So, the number of ionized particles is
`19 approximately equal to the number of electrons in
`20 the plasma. Sort of the basic definition that one
`21 would refer to.
`22 Q What's an anode?
`23 A As it relates to this stuff here?
`24 Q Yes. Let's be more specific. What would
`25 one of ordinary skill in the art understand the
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`1 term "anode" to mean in the context of the 775
`2 patent?
`3 A So, an anode is just a structure in the
`4 magnetron -- well, it can be in any plasma system,
`5 but I'll talk about as it refers to magnetron
`6 sputtering, if that's okay.
`7 Q Sure.
`8 A So, anode is just a place where electrons
`9 are collected in the plasma. It's a place where
`10 electrons can be collected in the plasma. That's
`11 one definition.
`12 Q Does it have to be in a particular place
`13 in magnetron-sputtering equipment?
`14 MR. MAIER: Object to form.
`15 A I mean typically it's placed proximate to
`16 certain other items within the magnetron. It can
`17 be placed in other areas to get different effects.
`18 Q You mentioned the word "proximate." What
`19 do you mean by "proximate"?
`20 A So, when we talk about magnetron
`21 sputtering, we are talking about, usually, an anode
`22 and a cathode.
`23 So, it's usually placed adjacent or
`24 proximate or close to that structure for the effect
`25 that you want to get for this plasma.
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`Capital Reporting Company
`DeVito, Richard 12-11-2014
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`1 Q So, proximate for you or for one with
`2 ordinary skill in the art would mean close?
`3 A Close.
`4 Q How close?
`5 MR. MAIER: Object to form.
`6 A You know, it varies depending on the type
`7 of actual sputtering you want to do. You can have
`8 it very close. You can have it not so close.
`9 Q What is a cathode for -- strike that.
`10 What is a cathode to a person of ordinary skill in
`11 the art reading the 775 patent?
`12 A I'm going to just talk about it as it
`13 applies to sputtering in the 775. So, cathode is
`14 -- I use it sometimes synonymously with the term
`15 "target."
`16 The cathode is where you would place your
`17 target material, which is the material for
`18 deposition.
`19 Q So, is cathode necessarily a target
`20 material in the context of the technology that's
`21 described in the 775 patent?
`22 A I mean -- I believe in the context of the
`23 775, the cathode -- they refer to it as the
`24 cathode, but there's a target on the cathode.
`25 Q It doesn't necessarily have to have a
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`DeVito, Richard 12-11-2014
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`1 target on it for it to be a cathode, right?
`2 A It doesn't have to. There has to be some
`3 structure there for the ions to impinge on. There
`4 can't be nothing, right. There has to be some
`5 structure there.
`6 Q What's a cathode in general terms?
`7 MR. MAIER: Objection. Foundation.
`8 A I didn't opine -- I don't think I opined
`9 on that, but a cathode is just -- in a plasma,
`10 you'd always have a cathode and anode to complete
`11 your circuit so the electrons have a place to
`12 continue to circulate around. So, you'd have not
`13 an open circuit but a complete circuit. So, they
`14 are complementary to one another.
`15 Q So, in the context of the 775 patent, is
`16 there -- can you give me examples of the cathode in
`17 the context of the 775 patent?
`18 A I need some -- that's a very general
`19 question. I don't think I understand it.
`20 Q Is there a requirement -- is there some
`21 kind of structural requirement for a cathode?
`22 A Can I see the patent so I could just take
`23 a look at it?
`24 Q Sure. Let's do that.
`25 MR. VARDANIAN: So, I'll mark this as --
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`Capital Reporting Company
`DeVito, Richard 12-11-2014
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`1 I think it's already pre-marked as 1001.
`2 A Could I possibly see my declaration, too?
`3 I may need to find out some information from that,
`4 too.
`5 Q We will get there.
`6 A Okay.
`7 Q Let's take it one step at a time.
`8 (DeVito Exhibit Number 1001 marked
`9 for identification.)
`10 A I'm sorry. Could you repeat the
`11 question?
`12 Q Are there structural requirements for a
`13 cathode in the context of the 775 patent?
`14 A So, when you say "structural," could you
`15 tell me what you mean when you say the word
`16 "structural"?
`17 Q Sure. Let's start with where it's
`18 located in the chamber.
`19 A I can point to it, but it doesn't do her
`20 any good. So, I don't know how to answer that
`21 question. There is -- in their figure 2 of the
`22 Zond patent, they show a cathode structure, which I
`23 believe is -- I think it's 216, but let me refer to
`24 the body the figure references.
`25 Q In figure 2 of the 775 patent, which
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`DeVito, Richard 12-11-2014
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`1 element is the cathode?
`2 A I think it may be 216, but let me find it
`3 in the --
`4 Q Sure.
`5 A Okay?
`6 Q Go ahead.
`7 A So, I'm looking at column 4 of the 775
`8 patent, line -- I think it's 43. So, they refer to
`9 the cathode as 216.
`10 Q So, this is line 42?
`11 A Column 4, line 43, I believe. "The
`12 magnetically enhanced plasma processing apparatus
`13 200 also includes a cathode 216."
`14 Q So, the element 216 in figure 2 of the
`15 775 patent is a cathode, right?
`16 A Yes.
`17 Q That's just one example of where a
`18 cathode can be in the chamber in the context of the
`19 775 patent, right?
`20 A Yes.
`21 Q This particular example -- in this
`22 particular example, the cathode appears in the
`23 middle of the chamber. Is that fair?
`24 A I mean this isn't drawn to scale. So, I
`25 can't really give you a good -- a good answer on
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`DeVito, Richard 12-11-2014
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`1 that. It's not to scale. So, I can't -- I can't
`2 give a credible opinion on that answer.
`3 Q So, does it have to be -- let me ask you
`4 this: Can the cathode be pretty much anywhere in
`5 the chamber in the context of the 775 patent?
`6 A I mean -- well, yes and no. I mean you
`7 certainly can have them in different locations, but
`8 for the efficacy of the process, you want to have
`9 them in the proximity such that you get -- your
`10 process actually works, depending on what that
`11 process happens to be, whether it's deposition or
`12 etching.
`13 Q Does there have to be just one cathode in
`14 the chamber in the context of the 775 patent?
`15 A Well, I mean you could have multiples of
`16 these in the chamber, if that's what you're asking
`17 me.
`18 Q Are there multiple cathodes in figure 2?
`19 A I have to read the body of the patent
`20 again, if that's okay. It's going to take me a few
`21 minutes.
`22 Q Sure.
`23 A Almost done. Could you repeat your
`24 question? Sorry.
`25 Q Yes. Is there more than one cathode
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`1 depicted in figure 2 of the 775 patent?
`2 A Well, he only speaks of a cathode in
`3 terms of 216.
`4 Q So, let me repeat my question. Is there
`5 more than one cathode in figure 2 of the 775
`6 patent?
`7 MR. MAIER: Objection. Form.
`8 A I mean the patent only refers to 216. I
`9 guess I don't understand the question.
`10 Q I'm asking you, in your opinion -- you
`11 looked at figure 2. You looked at the
`12 specification for a while relating to figure 2.
`13 Can you tell me whether figure 2 depicts more than
`14 one cathode?
`15 MR. MAIER: Same objection.
`16 A I mean if you go by his definition,
`17 there's only one cathode. I mean I guess,
`18 technically, the substrate -- I mean anything you
`19 apply a voltage to could be considered a cathode,
`20 but he's only referring to 216. So, that would be,
`21 like, the primary cathode.
`22 Q So, he's identifying 216 as the primary
`23 cathode, right?
`24 A He's only calling it the cathode. So, he
`25 doesn't identify -- I didn't see in the section I
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`1 read that he's identifying the substrate as a
`2 cathode.
`3 One of ordinary skill wouldn't view it as
`4 a cathode just because they are applying a voltage
`5 to it. It may meet the definition of it, but it's
`6 not the cathode in the truest sense of the word
`7 because the initiation of the plasma is across 216,
`8 which is the cathode.
`9 Q So, there's a few things there that you
`10 said that I want to sort of parse out.
`11 A Okay.
`12 Q You said that -- I think you said that
`13 for an element to be a cathode, you just have to
`14 charge it, right? Is that fair?
`15 A Charge it?
`16 MR. MAIER: Objection to form.
`17 Q Let me withdraw that. What makes an
`18 element, in the chamber, a cathode?
`19 MR. MAIER: Objection.
`20 Q In the context of the technology of the
`21 775 patent?
`22 A Well, I mean 216 is -- he considers that
`23 the cathode because that's where he's applying his
`24 high-voltage pulses to, his low-voltage pulses, his
`25 RF. That's the main cathode where he's generating
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`1 his ionization for the rest of his process.
`2 Q So, I'm asking your opinion about what
`3 the cathode is required to have in the context of
`4 the technology of the 775 patent.
`5 A I thought I answere
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