`
` IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
`
` FOR THE DISTRICT OF MARYLAND
`
` BALTIMORE DIVISION
`
`PAICE, LLC and
`
`THE ABELL FOUNDATION, INC.,
`
` Plaintiffs,
`
` Case 1:14-cv-00492-WDQ
`
`vs.
`
`FORD MOTOR COMPANY,
`
` Defendant.
`
`__________________________/
`
` DEPOSITION OF GREGORY W. DAVIS, Ph.D.
`
` Southfield, Michigan
`
` Tuesday, January 13, 2015
`
`REPORTED BY:
`
`Paula S. Raskin, CSR-4757
`
`Ref. No. 13176
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`depo@transperfect.com -- 212.400.8845
`
`1
`
`PAICE 2003
`Ford v. Paice & Abell
`IPR2014-00571
`
`
`
`Page 2
`
`Page 4
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` APPEARANCES, CONTINUED:
`
`FOR THE DEFENDANT:
`
` LATHAM & WATKINS, LLP
` BY: AARON PEREZ-DAPLE
` 330 North Wabash Avenue, Suite 2800
` Chicago, Illinois 60611
` (312) 876-7602
` aaron.perez-daple@lw.com
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
` Frances M. Keenan, PAICE LLC
`
`Page 5
`
` INDEX TO EXAMINATIONS
`
` Witness Page
`GREGORY W. DAVIS, Ph.D.
`EXAMINATION BY MR. CORDELL: 10
`
` INDEX TO EXHIBITS
`
`Exhibit Page
` (Exhibits attached to transcript.)
`
`EXHIBIT 1 - Declaration of Dr. Gregory W. 10
` Davis in Support of Inter Partes
` Review - Patent No. 7,104,347
`EXHIBIT 2 - Declaration of Dr. Gregory W. 11
` Davis in Support of Inter Partes
` Review - Patent No. 7,104,347
`EXHIBIT 3 - Davis Curriculum Vitae 14
`EXHIBIT 4 - Patent 7,104,347 B2 43
`EXHIBIT 5 - Patent 5,343,970 122
`EXHIBIT 6 - Patent 5,586,613 185
`
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` January 13, 2015
` 9:02 A.M.
`
`DEPOSITION OF GREGORY W. DAVIS, Ph.D., taken on
`January 13, 2015 by the Plaintiffs at the Law
`Offices of Brooks Kushman, 1000 Town Center,
`Southfield, Michigan, before Paula S. Raskin,
`Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public
`in and for the State of Michigan, County of
`Oakland.
`
`Page 3
`
` A P P E A R A N C E S:
`
`FOR THE PLAINTIFFS:
`
` FISH & RICHARDSON
` BY: RUFFIN B. CORDELL
` W. PETER GUARNIERI
` 1425 K Street NW, 11th Floor
` Washington, DC 20005
` (202) 783-5070
` cordell@fr.com
` guarnieri@fr.com
`
`FOR THE DEFENDANT:
`
` BROOKS KUSHMAN, PC
` BY: FRANK A. ANGILERI
` ERIN KAY BOWLES
` JOHN P. RONDINI
` 1000 Town Center, Floor 22
` Southfield, Michigan 48075
` (248) 358-4400
` fangileri@brookskushman.com
` ebowles@brookskushman.com
` jrondini@brookskushman.com
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`EXHIBIT 7 - "Computer Modelling of the 203
` Automotive Energy Requirements
` for Internal Combustion Engine
` and Battery Electric-Powered
` Vehicles"
`EXHIBIT 8 - "Optimisation and Control of a 204
` Hybrid Electric Car"
`EXHIBIT 9 - "A Hybrid Internal Combustion 204
` Engine/Battery Electric Passenger
` Car for Petroleum displacement"
`EXHIBIT 10- "A Test-Bed Facility for Hybrid 206
` IC-Engine/Battery-Electric Road
` Vehicle Drive Trains"
`EXHIBIT 11- "Integrated Microprocessor 206
` Control of a Hybrid I.C.
` Engine/Battery-Electric
` Automotive Power Train"
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`Page 7
`
` P R O C E E D I N G S
` Southfield, Michigan
` January 13, 2015
` 9:02 a.m.
` * * * *
` GREGORY W. DAVIS, Ph.D.,
` having been called as a witness herein, was
` first duly sworn, examined, and testified as
` follows: 09:02:31
` MR. CORDELL: Ruffin Cordell and 09:02:31
` Pete Guarnieri from Fish & Richardson on 09:02:35
` behalf of PAICE, and with us is the 09:02:36
` chairman of PAICE, Frances Keenan. 09:02:38
` MR. ANGILERI: Frank Angileri for 09:02:41
` Ford, and in the room are John Rondini, 09:02:45
` Erin Bowles and Aaron Perez-Daple. 09:02:45
` MR. CORDELL: Good morning, 09:02:50
` Dr. Davis. 09:02:51
` THE WITNESS: Good morning. 09:02:52
` MR. CORDELL: My name is Ruffin 09:02:52
` Cordell. We just met this morning. Did 09:02:55
` you understand I represent PAICE? 09:02:55
` THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 09:02:55
` MR. CORDELL: Is there any reason 09:02:57
` why you can't testify completely and 09:02:58
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` truthfully here today? 09:03:00
` THE WITNESS: No. 09:03:00
` MR. CORDELL: Could you give us your 09:03:02
` full name and address for the record. 09:03:03
` THE WITNESS: Sure. It's 09:03:06
` Dr. Gregory W. Davis, and I live in 09:03:07
` Frankenmuth, Michigan, 143 Clarmarc Drive, 09:03:11
` C-L-A-R-M-A-R-C, and the zip code is 48734. 09:03:16
` MR. CORDELL: And you've been 09:03:24
` deposed before? 09:03:24
` THE WITNESS: Yes, I have. 09:03:26
` MR. CORDELL: How many times? 09:03:27
` THE WITNESS: I don't know. 09:03:28
` MR. CORDELL: Over a dozen? 09:03:31
` THE WITNESS: Probably not. 09:03:34
` MR. CORDELL: You know that I'm 09:03:35
` going to ask you a series of questions, 09:03:36
` right? 09:03:38
` THE WITNESS: Yes. 09:03:38
` MR. CORDELL: And I'm going to 09:03:38
` presume that you understand my question 09:03:39
` unless you ask for clarification. Is that 09:03:41
` fair? 09:03:43
` THE WITNESS: Fair. 09:03:44
` MR. CORDELL: And if -- from time to 09:03:45
`
`Page 9
`
` time, Mr. Angileri may interpose an 09:03:50
` objection. Unless he asks you not to 09:03:53
` answer the question, you know you're 09:03:55
` supposed to go ahead and answer it, 09:03:57
` correct? 09:03:57
` THE WITNESS: Correct. 09:03:57
` MR. CORDELL: Okay. Good. 09:04:00
` MR. ANGILERI: Mr. Cordell, before 09:04:01
` we start, which deposition are you doing? 09:04:03
` Because you guys noticed them both for 09:04:04
` today. 09:04:06
` MR. CORDELL: I plan on marking both 09:04:07
` of the declarations, and then we'll see how 09:04:08
` far we get. 09:04:13
` MR. ANGILERI: You can mark them 09:04:13
` both, but I want to proceed one at a time, 09:04:14
` because if I'm going to make a relevance 09:04:18
` objection, it needs to be in context. 09:04:21
` MR. CORDELL: I'm not sure those are 09:04:23
` appropriate in any context, but make 09:04:23
` whatever objections you feel like you need 09:04:23
` to. I'll try to make sure that I'm in 09:04:23
` context. But the issues overlap, so I 09:04:28
` don't think you can divide them that way. 09:04:31
` MR. ANGILERI: I think you can. 09:04:32
`
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` They're two separate proceedings. 09:04:34
` MR. CORDELL: You make your 09:04:36
` objections, I'll ask my questions. 09:04:37
` MR. ANGILERI: Well, which 09:04:39
` proceeding are you here for? 09:04:39
` MR. CORDELL: Well, we are here for 09:04:41
` IPR 2014-00571 and 2014-00579. I will 09:04:44
` begin with 571, if that helps you. 09:04:50
` MR. ANGILERI: Then I'll consider 09:04:53
` this a 571 deposition. 09:04:55
` MR. CORDELL: Again, I'm not going 09:04:56
` to agree that anything -- well, I not going 09:04:58
` to agree that that limitation prevents us 09:05:03
` from using questions that you consider to 09:05:05
` be appropriate to 571 in the 579 09:05:08
` proceeding. 09:05:13
` (DEPOSITION EXHIBIT 1 MARKED 09:05:13
` FOR IDENTIFICATION) 09:05:13
` EXAMINATION 09:05:13
` BY MR. CORDELL: 09:05:13
` Q. And with that, Dr. Davis, let me 09:05:14
` hand you what we've marked as Davis Exhibit 1, 09:05:16
` which for the record is the "Declaration of 09:05:19
` Dr. Gregory W. Davis in Support of Inter Partes 09:05:21
` Review Under," et cetera, but it's marked Ford 09:05:28
`
`Page 11
`
` Exhibit 1005, and it's for IPR Case Number 09:05:32
` IPR2014-00571. 09:05:36
` Is this your declaration, Dr. Davis? 09:05:42
` A. It appears to be, without any of the 09:06:42
` attachments. 09:06:44
` (DEPOSITION EXHIBIT 2 MARKED 09:06:44
` FOR IDENTIFICATION) 09:06:46
` Q. Okay. Now let me hand you what 09:06:46
` we've marked as Davis Exhibit 2, which is also 09:06:48
` entitled the "Declaration of Dr. Gregory Davis 09:06:51
` in Support of Inter Partes Review," et cetera, 09:06:54
` and it is marked Ford Exhibit 1108 for IPR Case 09:06:56
` Number IPR2014-00579. 09:07:02
` And, Dr. Davis, let me ask, is this 09:07:28
` the declaration you did in the 579 proceeding? 09:07:30
` A. It appears to be, again without any 09:08:11
` of the attachments. 09:08:14
` Q. Tell me how you put these 09:08:15
` declarations together. 09:08:17
` A. I'm not sure I understand your 09:08:22
` question. 09:08:23
` Q. How did you write these 09:08:24
` declarations? Did you sit in a room and write 09:08:26
` them? Did you have help? Was it a 09:08:28
` collaborative effort between you and the 09:08:32
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` attorneys from Brooks Kushman? How did it 09:08:35
` happen? 09:08:37
` A. Well, I drafted this declaration 09:08:37
` much in the same way I would any. I had other 09:08:39
` people do most of the typing. I'm not the best 09:08:44
` typist in the world. I reviewed obviously the 09:08:49
` patents, the prior art, formed my opinions, 09:08:54
` often would tell others this is what I want to 09:09:03
` say, this is how I want to type it, and we 09:09:06
` would type it together. So I did it much in 09:09:10
` the same way I would any declaration. 09:09:13
` Q. When were you first contacted about 09:09:18
` this case? 09:09:20
` A. I'm not sure. 09:09:21
` Q. Well, it had to be after October of 09:09:25
` 2013, right? 09:09:30
` A. I guess. I don't remember. 09:09:32
` Q. Who contacted you? 09:09:36
` A. I don't recall. Probably somebody 09:09:37
` from Brooks & Kushman. 09:09:40
` Q. But, suffice it to say, it was 09:09:44
` before April of 2014 when you signed these 09:09:45
` declarations. 09:09:48
` A. Certainly, yes. 09:09:48
` Q. About how much work went into 09:09:49
`
`Page 13
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` putting the declarations together? 09:09:52
` A. I spent a lot of time on these. 09:09:53
` Q. How much? 09:09:55
` A. I can't put a number on it. 09:09:58
` Q. Two weeks? 09:10:01
` A. Remember, you have to understand, 09:10:04
` first of all, I have a day job too, so that 09:10:06
` these things take a lot longer. But I spent 09:10:08
` a -- much more than two weeks certainly. 09:10:12
` Q. More than a month? 09:10:15
` A. Yeah. 09:10:23
` Q. More than two months? 09:10:24
` A. Again, I don't know. I can't give 09:10:25
` you any specific dates, but I spent quite an 09:10:28
` amount of time. I don't remember all the 09:10:33
` details. 09:10:34
` Q. Have you ever worked with Ford 09:10:35
` before these two IPR proceedings? 09:10:40
` A. I'm not sure I understand. 09:10:43
` Q. Have you ever been a Ford employee? 09:10:45
` A. No. 09:10:51
` Q. Have you ever done a contract with 09:10:51
` Ford, contract work for Ford? 09:10:53
` A. Not that I believe, no. 09:10:56
` Q. Have you ever had any research 09:11:02
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` funded by Ford? 09:11:04
` A. Yes. I've had engines donated to my 09:11:09
` lab facilities, things like that. 09:11:12
` Q. Which lab? 09:11:14
` A. My advanced engine research lab up 09:11:15
` at Kettering University. 09:11:19
` Q. Does Ford get along with Kettering 09:11:20
` okay, despite its GM roots? 09:11:23
` A. Yes. 09:11:23
` Q. And aside from having engines 09:11:28
` donated, can you think of any other instance in 09:11:32
` which you've received any kind of financial 09:11:34
` support from Ford outside of this case? 09:11:38
` A. I've done another inter partes 09:11:40
` review in another case. 09:11:48
` Q. Okay. Describe that for me. 09:11:51
` A. It was regarding fuel pump 09:11:53
` technology. 09:11:56
` Q. Which case was that? 09:11:57
` A. I don't know the number or anything. 09:11:59
` Q. I'm going to mark as Davis Exhibit 3 09:12:07
` a copy of your CV, which is Ford Exhibit 1015. 09:12:09
` (DEPOSITION EXHIBIT 3 MARKED 09:12:06
` FOR IDENTIFICATION) 09:12:25
` A. Thank you. 09:12:25
`
`Page 15
`
` Q. So what we've marked as Davis 09:12:29
` Exhibit 3 is in fact your current CV? 09:12:32
` A. It appears to be. 09:13:00
` Q. I note that you don't include 09:13:02
` litigation that you've been involved with on 09:13:05
` your CV. Can you describe for us the 09:13:07
` litigation you've had for the last five years, 09:13:11
` that you've been involved with for the last 09:13:15
` five years? 09:13:17
` A. I don't believe that's true. 09:13:17
` Q. Maybe I missed it. Where do you see 09:13:20
` it? 09:13:23
` Oh, there it is. You're right. 09:13:24
` It's in the middle of the document. 09:13:26
` So which of these cases involved 09:13:28
` Ford, if any? 09:13:32
` A. I forgot about this one. There's a 09:13:50
` case here where I represented Ford in the 09:13:53
` International Trade Commission. 09:13:57
` Q. In fact, you were adverse to 09:13:58
` Dr. Stein in the case, right? 09:14:02
` A. I don't remember that. I'm not sure 09:14:07
` that is true. 09:14:08
` Q. You don't recall Dr. Jeffrey Stein 09:14:10
` being on the other side of that case? 09:14:12
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` A. I don't recall. 09:14:15
` Q. Which side won that case? Do you 09:14:16
` recall? 09:14:19
` A. No. 09:14:19
` Q. You have no recollection of 09:14:21
` reviewing any of Dr. Stein's work in any case? 09:14:28
` A. I do believe Dr. Stein was 09:14:33
` representing or one of the experts on the other 09:14:39
` side in a case I did a number of years ago. 09:14:41
` Q. Which one was that? 09:14:46
` A. I'm not sure. 09:14:47
` Q. So I don't see any IPRs listed in 09:14:53
` the legal proceedings section. Is there one 09:14:59
` that you can recall where you assisted Ford? 09:15:04
` A. Again, I -- when I put this 09:15:08
` together, I believe I hadn't provided any 09:15:14
` testimony with regards to the IPR that I did 09:15:16
` with Ford. 09:15:20
` Q. Okay. And do you know who the other 09:15:22
` party is in that IPR? 09:15:24
` A. I'm not sure, but I believe it's 09:15:31
` TMC. 09:15:33
` Q. And what is the subject matter of 09:15:35
` the Ford-TMC IPR? 09:15:39
` A. Again, it involves fuel pumps. 09:15:42
`
`Page 17
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` Q. And is Ford or TMC the patentee? 09:15:46
` A. TMC I believe is the patentee. 09:15:54
` Q. Have you done a declaration in that 09:15:59
` case? 09:16:02
` A. Yes, I have. 09:16:02
` Q. Have you been deposed? 09:16:03
` A. Yes, I was deposed. 09:16:04
` Q. When? 09:16:06
` A. I don't recall the exact date. 09:16:07
` Q. Well, was it within the last six 09:16:18
` months? 09:16:21
` A. Yes, that would be fair. I believe 09:16:21
` it was. 09:16:23
` Q. Sometime in the fall? 09:16:23
` A. Yeah, it would be sometime I believe 09:16:25
` in the fall. 09:16:27
` Q. And who are the lawyers 09:16:29
` representing -- 09:16:30
` A. I think so, but I'm not actually a 09:16:31
` hundred percent sure on that, but I think it 09:16:33
` was in the fall. 09:16:35
` Q. Sometime in the back half of 2014? 09:16:35
` A. That sounds correct. 09:16:37
` Q. Really very few depositions in IPRs 09:16:40
` happen before that, so that's why -- 09:16:43
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` A. Okay. 09:16:45
` Q. And who are the lawyers representing 09:16:46
` TMC in that case? 09:16:51
` A. Representing TMC? 09:16:53
` Q. Uh-huh. 09:16:54
` A. I don't recall. 09:16:55
` Q. Who took your deposition? 09:16:57
` A. I don't recall. 09:16:58
` Q. Do you recall the prior art that you 09:17:08
` relied on for your declaration in the TMC-Ford 09:17:10
` matter? 09:17:13
` A. Not really. 09:17:15
` Q. Well, what do you remember about it? 09:17:17
` A. I just remember it involving fuel 09:17:20
` pumps. I mean... 09:17:24
` Q. Did you go out and find the prior 09:17:26
` art, or did they give it to you? 09:17:31
` A. I think in some cases I directed 09:17:33
` some testing, and I really don't recall any of 09:17:35
` the specific details on that. 09:17:40
` Q. So let's get back to this 09:17:42
` proceeding. When you were contacted by Brooks 09:17:46
` Kushman, were you told that they wanted you to 09:17:49
` do a declaration for one IPR or two IPRs or 09:17:53
` something else? 09:17:58
`
`Page 19
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` MR. ANGILERI: Objection, pretty 09:17:58
` much instruct you not to answer. 09:18:00
` BY MR. CORDELL: 09:18:04
` Q. Do you have an engagement letter 09:18:08
` with Brooks Kushman? 09:18:09
` A. I don't -- I'm not sure if it's with 09:18:15
` Brooks Kushman or Ford or -- I -- I'm not sure. 09:18:17
` I'm sure I've signed something. 09:18:21
` Q. You say in your -- you say in your 09:18:24
` report that -- or your declaration that you're 09:18:28
` being paid at a rate of $315 an hour. Is that 09:18:30
` right? 09:18:35
` A. That sounds correct. 09:18:35
` Q. Do you know Dr. Stein's at 425? 09:18:36
` A. I guess I need to raise my rates. 09:18:39
` Q. Just saying. And you have some kind 09:18:42
` of an agreement you believe with either Ford or 09:18:47
` Brooks Kushman? 09:18:50
` A. Yeah. I'm sure I've signed, you 09:18:53
` know, some sort of a contract. 09:18:56
` Q. Okay. So did you decide that you 09:18:59
` should -- well, so the declaration we've got 09:19:02
` marked as Exhibit 1 is with respect to the 09:19:07
` PAICE '347 patent, correct? 09:19:11
` A. That is correct. 09:19:15
`
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` Q. And the declaration that we marked 09:19:15
` as Exhibit 2 is also with respect to the PAICE 09:19:17
` '347 patent, correct? 09:19:24
` A. Correct. 09:19:25
` Q. Why did you do two declarations 09:19:25
` instead of just one? 09:19:27
` A. I was asked to do that. 09:19:28
` Q. By who? 09:19:30
` A. I'm sure the attorneys. 09:19:31
` Q. Well, you just do whatever they ask 09:19:33
` you to do? 09:19:37
` A. Certainly not. 09:19:38
` Q. So why two instead of just one? 09:19:38
` A. I don't know if there's some 09:19:40
` procedural details. I'm not a patent lawyer, 09:19:43
` but I was asked to, you know, compare prior art 09:19:46
` with one and then do it for a second one. 09:19:50
` Q. So in comparing the two 09:19:53
` declarations, I notice that they're pretty much 09:19:56
` identical up through Paragraph 171. Is that 09:20:00
` your understanding? 09:20:03
` A. I'd have to look at it. 09:20:04
` Q. Well, can you point out any 09:20:08
` differences between the two declarations before 09:20:10
` we get to Paragraph 171. 09:20:13
`
`Page 21
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` You said earlier that you wrote the 09:20:16
` declarations, right? 09:20:38
` A. Correct. 09:20:39
` Q. Did you cut and paste from one into 09:20:43
` the other? Is that how you created it? 09:20:45
` A. Again, I would often have others do 09:20:47
` some of the cut and paste. As you pointed out, 09:20:51
` I make a fair amount per hour. I think it 09:20:55
` would be crazy for Ford or somebody to pay me 09:20:57
` to do lots of typing and things like that, but 09:21:03
` this is my work. 09:21:05
` Q. Who was it that assisted you with 09:21:05
` the typing? 09:21:07
` A. I don't know. It's probably several 09:21:09
` attorneys at Brooks Kushman. 09:21:12
` Q. And who were they? 09:21:15
` A. I know Mr. Rondini. I'm really not 09:21:17
` sure all who would have been involved in some 09:21:25
` of the activities, at cleaning up things and 09:21:27
` making some of the particular details and some 09:21:33
` of the figures that I had people do. 09:21:37
` Q. Well, do you know anybody who did 09:21:41
` some of the details or cleaned up the figures 09:21:44
` other than Mr. Rondini? 09:21:47
` A. Probably Ms. Bowles, but I'm not 09:21:51
`
`6 (Pages 18 to 21)
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`depo@transperfect.com -- 212.400.8845
`
`6
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`Page 24
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` sure. 09:21:59
` Q. Why -- 09:21:59
` A. I focus a lot more on the work of 09:22:01
` the report. I'm not really concerned about 09:22:04
` who's handling some of these details of cutting 09:22:07
` and pasting and things like that. 09:22:10
` Q. Does it surprise you that you have 09:22:11
` that much identical between the two reports, 09:22:14
` 171 paragraphs? 09:22:16
` MR. ANGILERI: Objection as to 09:22:18
` foundation. 09:22:20
` Q. This is your work, correct, 09:22:22
` Dr. Davis? 09:22:23
` A. I'm inspecting it just to make sure 09:22:24
` it is actually. 09:22:27
` Q. But Mr. Angileri is objecting to 09:22:27
` foundation as if you don't know, so I'm just 09:22:34
` making sure that this is your work. 09:22:38
` MR. ANGILERI: Since you're 09:22:41
` challenging the objection, you asked him to 09:22:42
` tell you whether the first 171 paragraphs 09:22:44
` were the same, and then you just assumed it 09:22:46
` in your question. 09:22:49
` MR. CORDELL: Technically I asked 09:22:50
` him why are they the same, but... 09:22:51
`
`Page 23
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` MR. ANGILERI: Objection, form. I 09:23:23
` don't know what question is pending. 09:23:25
` A. I'm sorry, how far did you want me 09:27:30
` to look into this? 09:27:32
` Q. Well, I had it up to I think 09:27:34
` Paragraph 171, but then there's quite a bit 09:27:35
` more similarity for the next couple of pages. 09:27:39
` But is that your recollection that 09:27:43
` the two reports or two declarations are the 09:27:46
` same through about Paragraph 171? 09:27:48
` A. Well, I don't know that they're 09:27:52
` identical, but of course obviously my table of 09:27:53
` contents is totally different between the two. 09:27:55
` Q. Well you just spent about, I don't 09:28:01
` know, five or eight minutes looking through 09:28:03
` both reports. Did you notice any differences 09:28:06
` between the two declarations up to 09:28:08
` Paragraph 171? 09:28:12
` A. I noticed at least one of the 09:28:14
` figures, the cut and paste was a little 09:28:16
` different. But it would make sense that I had 09:28:19
` this the same because this is the background, 09:28:23
` the state-of-the-art section discussing the 09:28:26
` '347 patent. 09:28:30
` Q. What did you do to prepare for 09:28:31
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` today's deposition, Dr. Davis? 09:28:33
` A. I reviewed my declarations. 09:28:35
` Q. Anything else? 09:28:36
` A. Yeah. I looked at the attachments. 09:28:38
` Q. Anything else? 09:28:40
` A. I talked with the attorneys. 09:28:41
` Q. Which ones? 09:28:43
` A. Mr. Rondini, Mr. Angileri. 09:28:44