`
` UNITED STATES
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` PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` _____
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` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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` _____
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` FORD MOTOR COMPANY,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` vs. US Patent No. 8,214,097
`
` IPR Case No.: IPR2014-00570
`
` PAICE LLC & ABELL
`
` FOUNDATION, INC.,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
` __________________________/
`
` DEPOSITION OF JEFFREY L. STEIN, Ph.D.
`
` Southfield, Michigan
`
` May 8, 2015
`
`Reported by:
`
`Paula S. Raskin, CSR-4757
`
`Job no: 14127C
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`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
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`PAICE 2008
`Ford v. Paice & Abell
`IPR2014-00570
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`Page 2
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` DEPOSITION OF JEFFREY L. STEIN, Ph.D., taken on
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` May 8, 2015 by the Plaintiffs at the Law
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` Offices of Brooks Kushman, 1000 Town Center,
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` Floor 22, Southfield, Michigan, before Paula S.
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` Raskin, Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary
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` Public in and for the State of Michigan, County
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` of Oakland.
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` A P P E A R A N C E S:
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`
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` FOR THE PETITIONER:
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`
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` BROOKS KUSHMAN, PC
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` BY: SANGEETA G. SHAH, ESQ.
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` ANDREW B. TURNER, ESQ.
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` FRANK A. ANGILERI, ESQ.
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` 1000 Town Center, Floor 22
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` Southfield, Michigan 48075
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` (248) 358-4400
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` sshah@brookskushman.com
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` aturner@brookskushman.com
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` fangileri@brookskushman.com
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` FOR THE PATENT OWNER:
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`
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` FISH & RICHARDSON
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` BY: PETER GUARNIERI, ESQ.
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` BRIAN J. LIVEDALEN, ESQ.
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` 1425 K Street NW, 11th Floor
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` Washington, DC 20005
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` (202) 783-5070
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` guarnieri@fr.com
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` livedalen@fr.com
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`Page 4
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` INDEX TO EXAMINATIONS
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`
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` Witness Page
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` JEFFREY L. STEIN, Ph.D.
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` EXAMINATION BY MR. LIVEDALEN: 6
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`
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` INDEX TO EXHIBITS
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` Exhibit Page
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` (Exhibits attached to transcript.)
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` EXHIBIT 1 - "The Effects of APU Characteristics 6
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` on the Design of Hybrid Control
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` Strategies for Hybrid Electric
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` Vehicles - C. Anderson
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` EXHIBIT 2 - Declaration of Dr. Jeffrey L. Stein 39
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` in Support of Petitioner's Reply to
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` Patent Owner's Response
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`Page 5
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
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` Southfield, Michigan
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` May 8, 2015
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` 3:30 p.m.
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` * * * *
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` JEFFREY L. STEIN, Ph.D.,
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` having been called as a witness herein, was
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` first duly sworn, examined, and testified as
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` follows:
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` MR. LIVEDALEN: Good afternoon, 15:30:03
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` Dr. Stein. 15:30:04
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` THE WITNESS: Good afternoon. 15:30:05
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` I did want to put on the record that 15:30:10
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` I have a hard personal constraint at 6:30. 15:30:13
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` I don't have any idea what the legal or 15:30:17
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` logistical constraints are for others, but 15:30:19
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` that's the situation that I have. 15:30:22
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` MR. LIVEDALEN: Okay. We'll do our 15:30:25
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` best to wrap this up. If we cannot, then 15:30:27
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` we'll tackle that problem at that time. We 15:30:31
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` won't deal with it now. 15:30:35
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` Dr. Stein, can you please state your 15:30:38
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` full name for the record? 15:30:40
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` THE WITNESS: Jeffrey L. Stein. 15:30:41
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` MR. LIVEDALEN: And I assume by now 15:30:43
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` you're familiar with the rules for these 15:30:45
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` depositions? Want me to go over them with 15:30:48
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` you? 15:30:51
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` THE WITNESS: Certainly. You can go 15:30:51
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` over them, please. 15:30:52
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` MR. LIVEDALEN: So I'll be asking 15:30:54
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` you questions. Your counsel can object, 15:30:55
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` but you still need to answer the question. 15:30:58
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` Of course, give time for counsel to make 15:31:00
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` those objections. 15:31:03
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` And we just ask that you respond to 15:31:04
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` questions with an audible response, so no 15:31:07
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` shaking of the head. It needs to be 15:31:11
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` something that the court reporter can write 15:31:13
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` down. 15:31:15
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` Any questions from you? 15:31:17
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` THE WITNESS: No. 15:31:19
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` MR. LIVEDALEN: Okay. Let's get 15:31:20
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` started. 15:31:21
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` I'd like to mark this as Exhibit 1. 15:31:27
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` (DEPOSITION EXHIBIT 1 MARKED 15:31:45
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` FOR IDENTIFICATION at 3:31 p.m.) 15:31:45
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` EXAMINATION 15:31:45
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` BY MR. LIVEDALEN: 15:31:45
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` Q. Dr. Stein, are you familiar with 15:31:48
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` Exhibit 1? 15:31:50
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` A. This appears to be the Anderson 15:31:54
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` reference from my reply declaration. 15:32:00
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` Q. Okay. 15:32:03
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` MR. LIVEDALEN: And just for the 15:32:06
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` record, that's Exhibit FMC 1006. 15:32:06
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` Q. Dr. Stein, could you please turn 15:32:14
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` with me to Page 7, and the lower numbering 15:32:15
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` systems are 7 of 9. Do you see that? 15:32:27
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` A. Yes. 15:32:27
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` Q. And if you can, go with me to the 15:32:32
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` section called "Emissions." Do you see that on 15:32:34
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` the right column? 15:32:37
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` A. Yes. 15:32:39
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` Q. And then if you want to scroll down 15:32:39
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` with me, so to the third paragraph, it starts 15:32:44
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` with "Transients present." See that? 15:32:46
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` A. Yes. 15:32:50
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` Q. Finally, let's go to the last 15:32:51
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` sentence in that paragraph starting with 15:32:53
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` "Some." Can you please read that for me? 15:32:56
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` A. "Some of this effect can be reduced 15:33:00
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` using a hybrid strategy that only allows slow 15:33:04
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` transients, but this places greater strain on 15:33:08
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` the LLD." 15:33:12
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` Q. Dr. Stein, is this sentence 15:33:18
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` referring to a parallel hybrid or a series 15:33:20
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` hybrid? 15:33:25
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` A. So this paper, I can -- talks about 15:33:26
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` the general strategies that lie, as the title 15:33:34
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` says, "Control Strategies for Hybrid Electric 15:33:39
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` Vehicles," and it says: 15:33:42
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` "The thought processes presented in 15:33:49
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` this paper are sufficiently general that they 15:33:51
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` can be applied to any type of vehicle." 15:33:53
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` That's -- I'm reading from the 15:33:55
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` bottom of Column 2 on Page 4 of Exhibit FMC 15:33:57
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` 1006. 15:34:03
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` Q. With that, the sentence you just 15:34:03
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` read that says, "Some of this effect can be 15:34:06
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` reduced using a hybrid strategy that only 15:34:09
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` allows slow transients, but this places greater 15:34:12
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` strain on the LLD," is that referring to a 15:34:16
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` series hybrid or a parallel hybrid? 15:34:19
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` MS. SHAH: Objection, asked and 15:34:22
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` answered, form. 15:34:23
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` A. I would answer as I did before that 15:34:29
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` the paper is about hybrid control strategies 15:34:39
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` and is talking about concepts of hybrid 15:34:43
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` control, showing how you can trade off 15:34:48
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` engineering concepts in the design of these 15:34:52
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` vehicles, and applies to parallel -- to all 15:34:56
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` types of vehicles. 15:35:01
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` Q. So the sentence in your opinion 15:35:05
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` applies to -- strike that. 15:35:09
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` So the sentence that reads, "Some of 15:35:12
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` this effect can be reduced using a hybrid 15:35:14
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` strategy that only allows slow transients, but 15:35:17
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` this places greater strain on the LLD," that 15:35:22
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` sentence in your opinion refers both to 15:35:24
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` parallel and series hybrids? 15:35:26
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` A. If you take that sentence out of the 15:35:29
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` context and just give me that one sentence, 15:35:33
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` then it would make no sense at all. So you 15:35:37
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` have to include that sentence as she has done, 15:35:42
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` in the context of a paragraph, and that 15:35:44
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` paragraph within sections, and that section 15:35:47
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` within a paper. 15:35:50
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` And so in the context of this paper, 15:35:53
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` I believe that the concept that she's talking 15:35:54
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` about apply to, as she says, any type of 15:36:00
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` vehicle. 15:36:06
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` Q. So in proper context, the sentence 15:36:06
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` that I read, "Some of this effect can be 15:36:08
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` reduced using a hybrid strategy that only 15:36:11
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` allows slow transients, but this places greater 15:36:15
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` strain on the LLD," refers to both -- or strike 15:36:18
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` that. Let me start over. 15:36:26
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` So in the proper context, the 15:36:28
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` sentence, "Some of this effect can be reduced 15:36:30
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` using a hybrid strategy that only allows slow 15:36:32
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` transients, but this places greater strain on 15:36:37
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` the LLD," that sentence includes both series 15:36:40
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` and parallel in your opinion? 15:36:45
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` MS. SHAH: Objection, form, vague. 15:36:48
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` A. The sentence does not talk about a 15:36:51
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` vehicle. The sentence by itself talks about a 15:36:55
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` hybrid strategy. 15:37:00
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` Q. Okay. So -- 15:37:01
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` A. You're taking it out of context. 15:37:02
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` Q. -- that strategy -- that strategy in 15:37:05
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` proper context, what type of vehicle does that 15:37:09
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` refer to? 15:37:11
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` MS. SHAH: Objection, vague. 15:37:12
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` A. I guess I don't know what you're 15:37:25
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` trying to ask me about looking at that one 15:37:27
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` sentence. We can go back and properly read the 15:37:30
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` whole paragraph and I can do that. 15:37:35
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` Q. I'm not asking you to -- strike 15:37:39
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` that. 15:37:39
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` I'm asking you about the sentence in 15:37:47
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` its proper context. What is the sentence -- 15:37:49
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` what does the sentence indicate to one of skill 15:38:00
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` in the art in 1998? 15:38:05
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` MS. SHAH: Objection, vague. 15:38:09
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` A. So can you repeat your question, 15:39:31
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` please? 15:39:33
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` Q. Sure. What is the sentence that 15:39:34
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` reads "Some of this effect can be reduced using 15:39:40
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` a hybrid strategy that only allows slow 15:39:43
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` transients, but this places greater strain on 15:39:47
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` the LLD" indicate to one of skill in the art in 15:39:50
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` 1998? 15:39:55
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` A. It indicates a conclusion to the 15:39:58
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` paragraph that it's contained in. 15:40:03
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` Q. And what is that? 15:40:06
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` A. The paragraph talks about emissions: 15:40:08
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` "Transients present an emissions 15:40:14
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` problem that is largely related to the speed of 15:40:17
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` the transient." 15:40:20
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` That's the topic sentence for that 15:40:21
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` paragraph. 15:40:25
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` Q. Let me ask you this. The sentence 15:40:27
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` I've read to you uses the term "hybrid 15:40:29
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` strategy." What's the hybrid strategy that's 15:40:35
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` being referred to here? 15:40:38
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` MS. SHAH: Objection, vague. 15:40:38
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` A. I mean the whole paper is about the 15:40:44
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` hybrid strategy, about hybrid strategy for 15:40:47
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` hybrid vehicles, so she's talking in general 15:40:51
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` terms here. 15:40:54
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` Q. So not a particular strategy. 15:40:56
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` A. She's talking about the design 15:41:00
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` problem of trading off of different issues in 15:41:04
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` the design and control of hybrid vehicles. 15:41:14
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` And she's talking about in this 15:41:18
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` particular paragraph the fact that one of the 15:41:19
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` issues is the -- relates to the fact that 15:41:23
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` engines produce emissions, as everybody knows, 15:41:28
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` and that they produce -- that one of ordinary 15:41:34
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` skill would know, and that during the transient 15:41:39
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` response of the engine, this is saying that 15:41:47
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` there are -- that there's a particular increase 15:41:50
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` in emissions that are produced. 15:41:56
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` And as the paper more generally 15:42:00
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` talks about, there are -- this is a 15:42:02
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` consideration in the design of hybrid vehicles. 15:42:05
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` Q. So you mentioned that the paragraph 15:42:09
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` we've been talking about mentions that there's 15:42:18
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` a particular increase in emissions that are 15:42:21
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` produced. Do you agree with that? 15:42:23
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` MS. SHAH: Objection, vague. 15:42:26
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` Q. Let me be clear. I'm just reading 15:42:34
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` your testimony from before, so I'm just trying 15:42:35
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` to establish... 15:42:39
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` A. I said that this paragraph 15:42:40
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` specifically talks about that transients, 15:42:42
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` that -- that engine transients in engines, so 15:42:44
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` internal combustion engines like the type that 15:42:57
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` you typically find in hybrid vehicles and 15:43:02
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` conventional vehicles, for that matter, that 15:43:05
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` the emissions -- I'm talking now generically -- 15:43:09
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` that the emissions that engines produce become 15:43:14
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` greater during the transient operation of the 15:43:18
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` engine. 15:43:23
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` Q. So I understand in this paragraph 15:43:24
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` it's identifying a problem, right, that the 15:43:27
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` transients increase? 15:43:30
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` Sorry, strike that. 15:43:36
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` So the paragraph is identifying a 15:43:39
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` problem that the engine produces greater 15:43:47
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` emissions during transients. Is that right? 15:43:52
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` A. I guess I don't know why you're 15:44:08
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` asking me that question given the last response 15:44:09
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` that I gave you. 15:44:12
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` Q. The response that you gave me is 15:44:13
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` indicating that Anderson in this paragraph is 15:44:15
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` talking about emissions, right, and you want to 15:44:20
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` lower emissions by reducing transients? Do you 15:44:25
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` agree with that? 15:44:30
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` MS. SHAH: Objection, asked and 15:44:30
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` answered. 15:44:31
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` A. She is saying, as I said before, 15:44:36
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` that emissions from engines is -- for hybrid 15:44:39
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` vehicles is a factor to be considered, and that 15:44:44
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` during the engine's transient performance, this 15:44:50
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` is -- transient operation, that emissions are 15:44:57
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` greater and that this is something that you 15:45:02
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` should consider as part of developing your 15:45:05
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` strategy for your hybrid vehicle. 15:45:10
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` Q. So greater emissions, that's bad, 15:45:12
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` right? 15:45:17
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` A. In what context? I guess I would 15:45:17
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` ask you that question. 15:45:28
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` Q. Is Anderson talking here about 15:45:29
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` trying to reduce emissions or increase 15:45:31
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` emissions by using a hybrid strategy? 15:45:33
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` A. She's suggesting that the production 15:45:38
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` of emissions is something that you should be 15:45:41
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` concerned about, and anybody -- a person of 15:45:45
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` ordinary skill would be concerned about it, and 15:45:48
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` that in considering the design of your hybrid 15:45:51
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` strategy, you have to trade off how much -- the 15:45:55
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` emissions that are produced by your vehicle 15:46:03
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` with other considerations. 15:46:05
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` Q. But if all things -- everything else 15:46:08
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` equal, you prefer to reduce the emissions as 15:46:10
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` opposed to increasing the emissions, right? 15:46:14
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` MS. SHAH: Objection, vague. 15:46:16
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` A. So what is the context that you're 15:46:21
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` talking about? 15:46:27
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` Q. I'm just trying to get on the same 15:46:28
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` page here with respect to this paragraph. 15:46:32
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` Is Anderson saying you need to 15:46:35
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` consider emissions because you want to reduce 15:46:36
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` them or because you want to increase them? 15:46:39
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` A. You -- I'm telling you from what I 15:46:43
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` said before that the issue of emissions is 15:46:49
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` something that you have to trade off with 15:46:54
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` respect to other issues that are of 15:46:58
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` consideration in the design of your vehicle. 15:47:03
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` Q. So does the sentence "Some of this 15:47:12
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` effect can be reduced using the hybrid strategy 15:47:15
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` that only allows slow transients, but this 15:47:18
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` places greater strain on the LLD," does that 15:47:23
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` sentence propose a specific hybrid strategy for 15:47:26
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` considering emissions? 15:47:32
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` MS. SHAH: Objection, vague. 15:47:35
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` A. So I -- could you rephrase your 15:47:53
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` question, please? 15:47:56
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` Q. Well, I'll ask you the same question 15:47:59
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` again. 15:48:01
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` A. Well, I did ask for you to rephrase 15:48:02
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` the question because I find it confusing. 15:48:04
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` Q. What did you find confusing about my 15:48:06
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` question? 15:48:08
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` A. That I can't understand what you're 15:48:08
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` asking me. 15:48:10
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` Q. So you understand the sentence we're 15:48:11
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` talking about, right? It says: 15:48:14
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` "Some of this effect can be reduced 15:48:18
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` using a hybrid strategy that only allows slow 15:48:20
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` transients, but this places greater strain on 15:48:24
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` the LLD." 15:48:27
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` A. Yes, I see that sentence. 15:48:33
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` Q. Do you see that? 15:48:36
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` A. Yes. 15:48:37
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` Q. Is Anderson referring to a specific 15:48:37
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` hybrid strategy here that addresses the 15:48:40
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` emissions considerations that you've discussed 15:48:46
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` previously? 15:48:48
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` MS. SHAH: Objection, vague. 15:48:52
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` A. I mean the whole paper is about 15:49:07
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` coming up with a hybrid strategy. 15:49:09
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` Q. What is that hybrid strategy? 15:49:15
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` A. There isn't one. It's -- she's 15:49:17
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` suggesting that the space for coming up with 15:49:21
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` your hybrid strategy involves thinking about 15:49:25
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` the trade-off between different variables, 15:49:27
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` different issues as they relate to the 15:49:32
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` performance of a hybrid vehicle. 15:49:36
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` Q. Okay. Thank you. 15:49:39
`
` Dr. Stein, sorry to keep asking you 15:50:19
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` about the same sentence here, but I want to 15:50:24
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` focus on the portion that says, "but this 15:50:27
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` places greater strain on the LLD." 15:50:30
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` Do you see that? 15:50:36
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` A. Yes, I see that phrase. 15:50:36
`
` Q. Would a hybrid strategy employing a 15:50:39
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` thermostat mode place a great strain on the 15:50:49
`
` LLD? 15:50:55
`
` A. What are you talking about here? 15:50:57
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` Q. Are you familiar -- 15:51:02
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` A. It's a very generic question. 15:51:03
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` Q. Are you -- 15:51:05
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` A. Can you be more specific? 15:51:06
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` Q. Sure. Are you familiar with what 15:51:07
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` Anderson refers to as a thermostat mode? 15:51:09
`
` A. I understand that she uses that term 15:51:13
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` in describing one extreme of the operation of a 15:51:15
`
` hybrid vehicle, yes. 15:51:26
`
` Q. And does -- and what's happening in 15:51:27
`
` thermostat mode? 15:51:35
`
` MS. SHAH: Objection, form. 15:51:39
`
` A. Can you be more specific about what 15:51:42
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` you mean by what's happening? 15:51:45
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` Q. Can you describe to me based on your 15:51:47
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` understanding the thermostat mode as described 15:51:49
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` by Anderson? 15:51:53
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` MS. SHAH: Objection, form. 15:52:01
`
` A. On Page 5 -- I'm not sure what your 15:52:07
`
` question is asking, but Anderson on Page 5 15:52:14
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` under the title "Hybrid Control Strategies" 15:52:17
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` talks about different hybrid control 15:52:22
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` strategies, including a thermostat algorithm. 15:52:29
`
` Q. And do you see going down about six 15:52:36
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` lines, it says: 15:52:40
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` "Although the APU may be operating 15:52:42
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` at its most efficient point, the losses in the 15:52:45
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` LLD from excessive cycling may surpass the 15:52:48
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` savings from an optimized APU." 15:52:54
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` Do you see that? 15:53:11
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` A. Yes, I found it. 15:53:11
`
` Q. Do you agree that in thermostat 15:53:12
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` mode, there are losses in the LLD from 15:53:15
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` excessive cycling? 15:53:20
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` A. Could you repeat the question, 15:53:30
`
` please? 15:53:31
`
` Q. Do you agree with Anderson that in 15:53:32
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` thermostat mode, the losses in the LLD from 15:53:39
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` excessive cycling may surpass the savings from 15:53:39
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` an optimized APU? 15:53:42
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` MS. SHAH: Objection, form. 15:53:46
`
` A. I don't know -- when you say do I 15:53:51
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` agree with the statement, in what sense? Have 15:53:54
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` I done a specific calculation to -- on a 15:53:58
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` specific vehicle to see whether or not that 15:54:01
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` sentence is exactly true for a given system? 15:54:02
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` Or what -- 15:54:06
`
` Q. Would one of ordinary skill in the 15:54:09
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` art understand that thermostat mode results in 15:54:11
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` excessive cycling of the LLD? 15:54:17
`
` A. I think that one of ordinary skill 15:54:21
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` would understand that in a thermostat mode, 15:54:27
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` when the engine is operating at a constant 15:54:47
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` power level as it shows in Figure 5 at the top, 15:54:50
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` that during the operation of the vehicle, then 15:54:55
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` the battery power level will vary, fluctuate, 15:54:58
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` as shown also in Figure 5, and so one of 15:55:03
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` ordinary skill would see that, yes, the battery 15:55:08
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` is being cycled a lot during the operation of 15:55:11
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` the vehicle in this mode. 15:55:19
`
` Q. And that cycling would result in 15:55:22
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` strain on the LLD, correct? 15:55:25
`
` A. Anderson talks about this issue in 15:55:31
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` her paper. On Page 8, for example, the first 15:55:38
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` column at the top talks about the life -- I'm 15:55:58
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` sorry. Excuse me, that's not what I want to 15:56:06
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` refer to. 15:56:11
`
` So at the bottom of Page 6, Column 15:56:27
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` 1, she talks about the life of the battery: 15:56:42
`
` "Unfortunately, most available data 15:56:48
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` on battery life is of limited applicability to 15:56:52
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` hybrid systems. The complexities of the 15:56:53
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` reactions within batteries make it almost 15:56:55
`
` impossible to predict battery life except as a 15:56:57
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` questionable extrapolation of empirical data. 15:57:00
`
` Although few quantitative predictions of 15:57:04
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` battery life are available, some qualitative 15:57:07
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` statements can be made. 15:57:18
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` "1. A lead acid battery will degrade 15:57:21
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` more (per a throughput kWh) if cycled deeply 15:57:24
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` (cycled through a wide range of SOCs) than 15:57:41
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` shallowly. The long-term effects of 15:57:52
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` microcycling (cycling over a small range of 15:57:55
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` SOCs) are not fully known. 15:58:01
`
` "2. A battery will last longer if it 15:58:08
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` has lower energy throughput. 15:58:10
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` "3. Hard cycling (high power 15:58:12
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` cycling), even hard microcycling, will shorten 15:58:15
`
` the life." 15:58:22
`
` Q. Does this hard cycling that Anderson 15:58:25
`
` refers to, is that -- strike that.