`
`April 24, 2014
`
`835$
`
`B353
`
`833W
`
`Bfiifl
`
`13534
`
`B3i%
`
`B35“
`
`835%
`
`13:35:47
`
`Bfiifl
`
`Bfiifl
`
`;
`
`;
`
`: other pants? Actual samples, not photos.
`
`A.
`
`I did go shopping and having a look at
`
`' ”erent maternity pants and seeing my daughter's
`
`ternity pants, as well, o: course.
`
`Q. Which ones did you compare or see --
`
`A.
`
`And also with Target's,
`
`I —— the attorneys
`
`showed me maternity samples.
`
`Q.
`
`Did you compare Secret Fit with Target's
`
`pants?
`
`Mk. L+CHL4 T%R: Objection.
`
`Form.
`
`Tifi W TN%SS:
`
`I think that we, obviously,
`
`talked
`
`B35“ L
`
`about any di””erences.
`
`B35fl
`
`13:35:53
`
`L
`
`:_
`
`835% ;
`
`B35? ;
`
`Q.
`
`BY MR. POLLACK: Well, what di
`
`”erences did
`
`YOU see?
`
`M&. L%CHL% T%R: Objection.
`
`Form.
`
`Tifi W TN%SS:
`
`I think that on the —— one o:
`
`the
`
`Bfifim ;
`
`Target ones,
`
`they were —— had a seam maybe in the
`
`836% L
`
`back, and that was —— : don't know about
`
`the other
`
`B36% ;
`
`di””erences.
`
`I
`
`think they're all —— :
`
`think there
`
`B360
`
`was a combina iod, but not —— no.
`
`836W
`
`B36”
`
`B363
`
`11%24
`
`336%
`
`Q.
`
`3Y M_. BOLLACK:
`
`i"
`
`the Target pants go up
`
`to the empire "1e?
`
`M&. L%CHL% Tfikz Objection.
`
`Form.
`
`Tifi W TN%SS: Yes.
`
`They went —— well, not
`
`empire line.
`
`They went over the abdomen.
`
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`
`DMC Exhibit 2018_125
`
`
`
`FRANCES HARDER
`
`April 24, 2014
`
`836%
`
`B363
`
`B363
`
`13%34
`
`B3&fl
`
`B36”
`
`B36“
`
`836W
`
`836%
`
`836% ;
`
`13:36:52
`
`Z-
`
`”erence.
`
`BY MR. POLLACK:
`
`Same —— same thing?
`
`Jh—huh.
`
`So they —— so they did go to the empire
`
`Yes. Over the abdomen; right.
`
`And —— and that's true of the Secret Fit
`
`.
`
`.
`
`.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`pants, as well,
`
`they went to the empire line?
`
`A.
`
`Correct.
`
`So does J.C. Penney.
`
`. We'll get
`
`to J.C. Penney in a second.
`
`.
`
`Yeah.
`
`B3&% ;
`
`Q.
`
`{ave you seen commercially sold maternity
`
`Bfifiw ;
`
`pants that don't go up to the emp’re l ne?
`
`Bfifm ;
`
`M&. L%CHL+ T%R: Objection.
`
`Form.
`
`B3T% ;
`
`Tlfi W TN%SS: Have : seen —— well,
`
`: talked
`
`B3T% ;
`
`about some that i'd seen when I was pregnant, yeah.
`
`11W09j_
`
`yes_
`
`13137109
`
`I-
`
`Q.
`
`BY MR. POLLACK:
`
`Am : correct that
`
`B3TH ;
`
`companies are still selling maternity pants that
`
`B3TM
`
`B3T5
`
`B3TW
`
`B3?”
`
`Bfiffl
`
`B3TB
`
`go -— don't go to the empire line?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Correct.
`
`What are the advantages of having pants go
`
`to the empire "ne?
`
`Mx. L%CHL% 3&3: Objection.
`
`Form.
`
`Tlfi W TN%SS:
`
`I think the wearer would be the
`
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`DMC Exhibit 2018_126
`
`
`
`FRANCES HARDER
`
`April 24, 2014
`
`one to decide whether or not they felt comfortable
`
`wearing them.
`
`Some people, as I said earlier on,
`
`feel comfortable with a pant that goes over the
`
`abdomen and other people feel comfortable with it
`
`going under tie abdomen or folded over to the waist.
`
`.
`
`.
`
`.
`
`.
`
`DY M&. BOLLACK:
`
`Do you know why that is?
`
`I
`
`think it's just preferences.
`
`Do you know why they have those preferences
`
`.
`
`fiCHL% “ah: Objection.
`
`Form.
`
`gr NH.
`
`2oLLAcK:
`
`—— what --
`
`Al Well, it's like why do you like a striped
`
`B3?”
`
`B3?”
`
`Bfllfl
`
`13W34
`
`B3T%
`
`B3?”
`
`B3?“
`
`B3TB
`
`B3%%
`
`B3T% l
`
`13:37:46
`
`Bfilfl
`
`:_
`
`L
`
`Bfifw l
`
`shirt or striped tie?
`
`" think ‘t's a personal
`
`Bfiffi
`
`;
`
`preference o” “it. Or why you like a certain pair
`
`B3T% ;
`
`o:
`
`jeans to wear.
`
`It's just a comfort.
`
`B3&m l
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`Do you know when the Secret Fit
`
`B3&M L
`
`products entered the market?
`
`B3&W l
`
`M&. L:C{LjlTf&: Objection.
`
`Form.
`
`B3&m ;
`
`Tifi W rnassz As far as I can recall,
`
`B3&W
`
`B3&%
`
`B389
`
`B3&fl
`
`133834
`
`B3&%
`
`was —— the patent application was 2007.
`
`Q.
`
`DY M&. BOLLACK:
`
`Sure.
`
`Sure.
`
`But do you know when the —— when the
`
`product entered the market?
`
`gg_
`
`§qO_
`
`.
`
`Okay.
`
`Do you know whether —— in 2007,
`
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`
`DMC Exhibit 2018_127
`
`
`
`FRANCES HARDER
`
`April 24, 2014
`
`83&@
`
`839W
`
`83&fl
`
`83&M-
`
`839m
`
`8398
`
`839%
`
`839%
`
`8398
`
`ther there were —— ignoring now the J.C. Peaney
`
`photographs, do you know o: any commerciaL pan"
`
`that you've actually seen, seen the actuaL pan‘
`
`where the pants went to the empire line?
`
`A.
`
`As
`
`I said earlier,
`
`the company that
`
`working with, Layette,
`
`they did have a roll—up pant.
`
`Q.
`
`Other than Layette, do you know o: any
`
`other pants —— actual pants that you've seen that
`
`went up to the empire line?
`
`8398 L
`
`A. Well,
`
`L wasn't really looking in 7007, at
`
`8398 L
`
`that time.
`
`8398 L
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`So as you sit here today, you don't
`
`8398 L
`
`know of any pants, other than the Layette pants,
`
`839M L
`
`that went up to the empire line as o: 2007?
`
`198242-
`
`A.
`
`?or maternity wear?
`
`839% L
`
`.
`
`Tor maternity wear.
`
`839% L
`
`A.
`
`Not that L'm aware o‘.
`
`" personally wasn't
`
`8393 L
`
`looking then.
`
`839% L
`
`Q.
`
`Now, we're also talking about pan
`
`8398
`
`839W
`
`849%
`
`849%
`
`13:40:00
`
`19%04
`
`had a —— a roll—up tube that was attached to
`
`to the jeans or other pair of pants;
`
`is that
`
`correct?
`
`A.
`
`Correct.
`
`_
`
`Yeah _
`
`The roll—up pants, do —— do —— am L
`
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`
`DMC Exhibit 2018_128
`
`
`
`FRANCES HARDER
`
`April 24, 2014
`
`840%
`
`840M
`
`B400
`
`13140114
`
`840M
`
`BAOW
`
`840%
`
`840%
`
`IEAB4
`
`that many of them do not go to the empire line when
`
`they're rolled up?
`
`MR. L%CHL+ Tfikz Objection.
`
`Form.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`_3Y M&. BOLLACK:
`
`Is that fair?
`
`:
`
`think you've —— we've seen examples o:
`
`5
`
`them that don't.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`i would like to —— your help with
`
`understanding some terms in the attorney pants art.
`
`I've seen the term used "under—belly maternity
`
`13:40:41
`
`:_
`
`pants."
`
`B%0@ ;
`
`Do you know what that is?
`
`B4&B ;
`
`Al Well, it would sit under the belly o:
`
`B%&% ;
`
`wearer.
`
`B49” ;
`
`B403
`
`13:40:54
`
`:_
`
`B4&% ;
`
`840%
`
`Bfitm ;
`
`134UM
`
`BALW
`
`B4P%
`
`Bfikfl
`
`Bfikfi
`
`341%
`
`Q.
`
`A
`
`Q.
`
`A
`
`Q
`
`So under the extended pregnant area?
`
`Correct.
`
`Okay.
`
`Like a low—riser —— a low—riser jean would.
`
`sure,
`
`Why would someone wear an under --
`
`under—belly maternity pants?
`
`Mk. LACHLA Tfikz Objection.
`
`Torm.
`
`Tia W TN%SS:
`
`: would assume they would wear
`
`them because it ‘e't comfortable to them to allow
`
`their body to —— or their belly to ‘eel
`
`‘ree of
`
`constriction.
`
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`
`DMC Exhibit 2018_129
`
`
`
`FRANCES HARDER
`
`April 24, 2014
`
`13141120
`
`Bfikfi
`
`84%”
`
`Bflkfi
`
`84%”
`
`Bfikfi
`
`B4L%
`
`Bflkfi
`
`Bfikfl
`
`Q.
`
`BY MR. POLLACK:
`
`Do you know if there's --
`
`i:
`
`there are problems holding up under—belly
`
`maternity pants?
`
`Mk. L%CHL% T%R: Objection.
`
`Form.
`
`Tlfi W TN%SS:
`
`For the most part,
`
`from the
`
`experience :'ve seen,
`
`they're in a stretch fabric,
`
`so they hold to the body.
`
`Q.
`
`jY Mk. BOLLACK: Okay.
`
`Now,
`
`there are
`
`lso,
`
`I believe, pants that are referred to as
`
`11M%4 ;
`
`id-belly maternity pants;
`
`is that correct?
`
`B4L% ;
`
`A.
`
`I would think that would be obvious, yes.
`
`Bfikw ;
`
`B4Lw ;
`
`Bfltfi
`
`13:41:56
`
`;
`
`:_
`
`.
`
`_
`
`Okay.
`
`I'm not as fami'iar.
`
`yeah_
`
`Q.
`
`So what are —— what are mid—belly maternity
`
`pants?
`
`B4L% ;
`
`A.
`
`:
`
`think they would be similar to the ones
`
`Bfikfl
`
`;
`
`was talking about earlier in the '70s that went --
`
`Bfilm ;
`
`came up to the waist. That would be about
`
`13:42:03
`
`:_
`
`mid—belly.
`
`13904
`
`841W
`
`Bfilm
`
`B4ZU
`
`B41“
`
`U41“
`
`Q.
`
`Okay. And are there any advantages or
`
`disadvantages of mid—belly maternity pants?
`
`Mk. W%CHL% flfikz Objection.
`
`Form.
`
`Tia W TN%SS:
`
`I think you would have to probably
`
`do a sirvey of pregnant women to find out which ones
`
`they would prefer to wear.
`
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`DMC Exhibit 2018_130
`
`
`
`FRANCES HARDER
`
`April 24, 2014
`
`BAX”
`
`13:42:20
`
`841%
`
`B413
`
`B41”
`
`B%ZM-
`
`841%
`
`13142139
`
`B41”
`
`Q.
`
`BY MR. POLLACK: Okay.
`
`You haven't
`
`looked
`
`into that?
`
`A.
`
`No.
`
`:
`
`think that everybody's got their own
`
`ference on that.
`
`Q.
`
`And :
`
`think there's another kind o:
`
`maternity pants that are referred to as
`
`over—the—belly maternity pants;
`
`is that correct?
`
`A.
`
`Yes .
`
`.
`
`Okay. What —— what are those?
`
`Bfllfl
`
`;
`
`A.
`
`I
`
`think we have examples o:
`
`the Penney and,
`
`B%Z% ;
`
`f course, o‘ “estination going over the belly.
`
`B42” ;
`
`Q.
`
`What does it mean to be over the belly?
`
`Bfilfl
`
`Bfllfi
`
`;
`
`;
`
`A, Well, it would cover and encompass the
`
`ily portion where —— where the pregnancy is and
`
`841% L
`
`low the breast.
`
`Bfiiw L
`
`Q.
`
`Am I correct that over—:he—beliy pants,
`
`Bfiiw ;
`
`though, don’: necessarily go to the empire line?
`
`Bfiim ;
`
`M&. L:CHLjiTjR: Objection.
`
`Form.
`
`B436 ;
`
`Tlfi W TN%SS: Well,
`
`the empire line can Vary,
`
`U41“
`
`Bfilfl
`
`13314
`
`Bfilfl
`
`B41”
`
`B413
`
`just as under the breast area can vary.
`
`So you
`
`could have an empire line that might be 2
`
`inches
`
`below the breast or it could still be just above the
`
`waistline and be considered to be an empire line.
`
`So it's —— there's no measurement given to an empire
`
`line_
`
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`
`DMC Exhibit 2018_131
`
`
`
`FRANCES HARDER
`
`April 24, 2014
`
`11534
`
`841%
`
`8418
`
`8418
`
`841%
`
`8418
`
`8413
`
`8413
`
`841fl
`
`.
`
`BY MR. POLLACK:
`
`Sure.
`
`But back to my question.
`
`Am I correct that
`
`there are over—:he—belly pan-s -haL don't
`
`necessarily go to the empire line?
`
`Mk. L+CHL4 Tfikz Objection -o form.
`
`Tlfi W TN%SS:
`
`I'm not quite sure what you mean.
`
`it's over the belly.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`jY M&. BOLLACK: Uh-huh. Right.
`
`"” i-'s over the belly, it's over the
`
`841% ;
`
`waist.
`
`So that would be the empire line; correct?
`
`841% ’
`
`"s that what you're asking me?
`
`841% ;
`
`841m L
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`841m ;
`
`belly --
`
`1144I01
`
`I-
`
`841% ;
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`::'s over the waist --
`
`it's going over the belly. Over the
`
`Uh-huh.
`
`—— is above the waist.
`
`13:44:03
`
`:_
`
`.
`
`Okay.
`
`841% L
`
`A.
`
`So that would take it to the empire line.
`
`841% ;
`
`So anything above the waist is considered to be an
`
`841”
`
`8418
`
`8418
`
`841M-
`
`841%
`
`841W
`
`empire line.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay. Are there any over—:he—belly
`
`pants —— maternity pants that do not reach to just
`
`under the breasts?
`
`Mk. L%CHL% T%R: Objection.
`
`Form.
`
`Tlfi W TN%SS:
`
`I think you would have to decide
`
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`132
`
`DMC Exhibit 2018_132
`
`
`
`FRANCES HARDER
`
`April 24, 2014
`
`84¢”
`
`B4¢fl
`
`B443
`
`B4¢M-
`
`844%
`
`34¢”
`
`84¢“
`
`B4¢%
`
`on the types o
`
`”abrics used and the wearer,
`
`the
`
`size o:
`
`the wearer.
`
`Q.
`
`A,
`
`BY MR. POLLACK:
`
`Uh—huh.
`
`Some of i- might stretch —— the same pant
`
`might stretch on one person over the breast if she's
`
`a small woman.
`
`Some o” it,
`
`i” she's a big woman,
`
`is
`
`not going to reach.
`
`I: would depend on the wearer
`
`themselves as to —— or as to how much stretch the
`
`844%
`
`fabric had.
`
`844% ;
`
`Q.
`
`Okay. %ut
`
`am correct the wearers
`
`B4¢fl
`
`;
`
`normally would size their clothing; correct?
`
`B4¢% ;
`
`Mk. L%CHL+ Tfikz Objection.
`
`Form.
`
`B4¢% L
`
`B4¢%
`
`Tl: WiTNjSS:
`
`They would size their clothing,
`
`B4¢% L
`
`Q.
`
`jY MR. BOLLACK: Okay.
`
`So they would pick
`
`B4i% ;
`
`'
`
`”erenL si es -ha- are appropriate for them?
`
`845% L
`
`B4i% ;
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Correct.
`
`So given that, are you able to answer
`
`B4i% ;
`
`whether or not over—the—belly pants —— assuming the
`
`345%
`
`U450
`
`B45W
`
`B4iW
`
`845%
`
`B45”
`
`wearer's wearing the appropria:e size for them, are
`
`th r
`
`ov r th b lly pants that don't reach to just
`
`under the breasts?
`
`M_.
`
`.%CHL% Tfikz Objection.
`
`Form.
`
`3 a
`
`2N%SS:
`
`2 think you'll find that some
`
`I'm not being evasive, but some people
`
`CENTEXT LEGAL SERVICES
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`
`DMC Exhibit 2018_133
`
`
`
`FRANCES HARDER
`
`April 24, 2014
`
`B4ifl
`
`1
`
`have a lower torso or the breasts may be lower, and
`
`843% 2
`
`so anything over the waist, you know,
`
`is —— that is
`
`843% 3
`
`maybe considered to be under the breast.
`
`So it's
`
`B458
`
`4
`
`hard to say. And, plus, certain fabrics, as I've
`
`B4iW 5
`
`seen,
`
`they all stretch in di””erent ways, and you
`
`B459
`
`6
`
`can have ‘t s’t in a certain area that feels
`
`845% 7
`
`com‘ortab'e, but if you're a bigger woman --
`
`B4i% 8
`
`B4i% 9
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`BY MR. POLLACK: Okay.
`
`—— you pull it up.
`
`13:45:47
`
`:_o
`
`.
`
`Right. Right.
`
`B43“
`
`1
`
`Well, doesn't that —— given all those
`
`B45” '2
`
`”ac-ors, doesn't that mean that then that must be
`
`B438 ;3
`
`that over—the—belly pants, at least on some women,
`
`841% ;4
`
`don't reach to jist under the breast area?
`
`843% ;5
`
`&. L%CH1% l%R: Objection.
`
`Form.
`
`846% ;6
`
`“l4 W TN%SS: Well, of course, we have to de:
`
`846% ;7
`
`iader the breast area is.
`
`846% L8
`
`Q.
`
`5Y M4.
`
`9OLLACK: Okay.
`
`B46% ;9
`
`B4&% 20
`
`A
`
`Q
`
`Is it under breast --
`
`But whatever --
`
`B4&% 21
`
`A.
`
`—— or under the breast area?
`
`B46W 22
`
`B46W 23
`
`B46m 24
`
`Q
`
`A
`
`M
`
`Sure. Whatever definition you are using.
`
`Right.
`
`So : think --
`
`fiCHLfi ”%R: Objection to
`
`B4&U 25
`
`T 4
`
`TNfiSS: —- it wou'd sit ’
`
`‘jerent ways
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`8468
`
`on the breast —— on the wearer.
`
`8468
`
`846%
`
`846%
`
`846%
`
`8468
`
`846%
`
`846”
`
`8468
`
`Q.
`
`BY MR. POLLACK:
`
`"f you wanted to design a
`
`product that would go up to just beneath the
`
`breasts, what would you do?
`
`A.
`
`Probably : would get in some models and
`
`find out what
`
`the measurements are and do a fit and
`
`sort of do a techn’ca' analysis of what you would
`
`need to do and then also analy e _he fabrics to see
`
`which types o
`
`”abrics stretch better. And some o;
`
`846% ;
`
`them will stretch more than others and be —- and be
`
`846% ;
`
`comfortable on di
`
`”erent sizes.
`
`846% ;
`
`Q. Would you use mannequins, as well?
`
`846% ;
`
`something that's done?
`
`846% ;
`
`A.
`
`Yeah.
`
`You have mannequins with --
`
`84Tm ;
`
`sometimes they w"l have a strap—on pregnant belly
`
`84T% L
`
`or you can actua"y have mannequins made to
`
`84TW L
`
`di””erent sizes of the pregnancy.
`
`84T8 ;
`
`Q.
`
`Okay. And that would be part of
`
`the
`
`84TH ;
`
`process of designing a —— maternity pants that went
`
`84T8
`
`84T8
`
`84T8
`
`84T8
`
`84T%
`
`84?”
`
`to just under the breast area?
`
`A.
`
`That's right.
`
`They would check it on
`
`d’
`
`"erent sizes —— di"”erent sizes and di
`
`"erent
`
`t’m ng of the pregnancy,
`
`so six months, seven
`
`months, eight months, depending on that.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`Just ask a few more word questions.
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`B%T%
`
`13:47:49
`
`B4?”
`
`B4Tfl
`
`B4T%
`
`B4?“
`
`B4&m
`
`B4&H
`
`B%&B
`
`Do you know what a jersey knit is?
`
`yes _
`
`Okay. What is a jersey knit?
`
`A_
`
`Q.
`
`A, Well,
`
`there's wool jersey and there's
`
`di ”erent —— most o
`
`i, is applying to wool, wool
`
`jersey, and it's a knit, a knitted fabric.
`
`Q.
`
`And then I've also seen in the documents
`
`the phrase "ribbed knit."
`
`Do you know what that is?
`
`A.
`
`Ribbed knit is usually —— the rib is the
`
`B%&W ;
`
`bottom par- of a sweater or on the cu
`
`“s or it could
`
`B%&% ;
`
`be around the neck.
`
`B4&% ;
`
`B4&% ;
`
`BA&fi
`
`;
`
`m4&% ;
`
`.
`
`.
`
`,
`
`Is that also a knit that's in wool?
`
`Rib could be in any type o” “fiber.
`
`= kn=t,
`
`what's --
`
`B%&w ;
`
`A.
`
`So you can have a —— you could have a
`
`B4&@ ;
`
`spandex rib.
`
`B4&M-L
`
`B4&% ;
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Okay. What's --
`
`That would really stretch.
`
`B4&W
`
`B%&fl
`
`B4&%
`
`B4&W
`
`B%&”
`
`B49M-
`
`Q. What's d"‘erent about a ribbed knit
`
`from
`
`other —— a ribbed knit from other kinds of knits?
`
`Mk. L%CHL+ Tfikz Objection.
`
`Form.
`
`Tlfi W DN%SS: Well, on my experience,
`
`I would
`
`say that ribbed knit would probably expand,
`
`I would
`
`say, quite well because it's —— it typically expands
`
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`849%
`
`13:49:11
`
`849M
`
`B499
`
`B495
`
`13:49:19
`
`B499
`
`B493
`
`849%
`
`and it holds the body --
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`_5Y l\/H.
`
`JBOLLACK: Okay.
`
`—— it holds the shape.
`
`And what is it about
`
`the knit that makes it
`
`a ribbed knit? What is it about
`
`the way it's put
`
`together?
`
`A.
`
`It's the knitting technique.
`
`So it's not
`
`just straight knit.
`
`it's what we call knit one,
`
`purl one,
`
`so you get your ribbing.
`
`B493 i
`
`Q.
`
`Okay. And what about a jersey knit? What
`
`U493 L
`
`is it about a jersey knit that makes it a jersey
`
`B49% ;
`
`knit?
`
`B495 i
`
`A. Well,
`
`i
`
`think that's just a general
`
`B49% ;
`
`terminology.
`
`So jersey knit could be a hand knit,
`
`B49“ ;
`
`it could be a machine knit,
`
`so it's just a technical
`
`849% ;
`
`word.
`
`So it could be a wool knit or it could be
`
`849% ;
`
`synthetic, it could be a mixture.
`
`It's just a
`
`B498 ;
`
`general
`
`term ‘or jersey,
`
`jersey knit.
`
`B49% ;
`
`Q.
`
`Yeah, but,
`
`I mean, what does it mean? What
`
`349%
`
`349%
`
`B50“
`
`850%
`
`550W
`
`U503
`
`makes something a jersey knit?
`
`A. Well, it's like saying a woven or a knit.
`
`it's just a terminology to describe that type o:
`
`knitted garment.
`
`So you could have a woven garr
`
`that's —— that's a twili woven, and that's the
`
`terminology in the weaving.
`
`A jersey knit or a knit
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`850$
`
`B50fl
`
`B502
`
`13:50:27
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`ribbing is —— it's a terminology used for knit.
`
`Q.
`
`: mean, do you know what it is about how
`
`they knit it that distinguishes a jersey kni
`
`from,
`
`say,
`
`a twi '
`
`' kni t?
`
`850% 5
`
`Al Well, you dO1'fi get a twill knit.
`
`Twf
`
`B50N 6
`
`used for the woven. But, obv’ous'y, we're saying
`
`B503
`
`850$
`
`7
`
`8
`
`B50W 9
`
`B6&% ;O
`
`13:50:38 Z_l
`
`B6&% ;2
`
`di”"erent terminologies.
`
`A rib is —— it “ were to
`
`knit you one now with a needle --
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q .
`
`A.
`
`Right. Right.
`
`—— two needles --
`
`Uh-h 31h .
`
`—— it would be —— it would be purl one,
`
`B60“ L3
`
`knit one or knit one, purl one.
`
`13:50:40
`
`:_4
`
`859% ;5
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`13:50:45
`
`2-6
`
`rib.
`
`Right.
`
`And that —— you would then achieve that
`
`B5&% ;7
`
`Q.
`
`That would give the ribbed knit.
`
`How would
`
`B50“ '8
`
`" get
`
`the jersey knit?
`
`B59” ;9
`
`13150149 20
`
`B6&fl 21
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`The jersey knit?
`
`Yeah.
`
`The jersey knit, well,
`
`that's usually a
`
`Bfiflfl 22
`
`little bit thicker, and so that's —— that's probably
`
`860%-23
`
`the technician who sets the machinery up.
`
`So you
`
`B5&% 24
`
`would be talking to them as a designer, and you say
`
`Bfikm 25
`
`you would need a little thicker knit,
`
`so they would
`
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`FRANCES HARDER
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`135M”
`
`B5L%
`
`Bfikm
`
`B5kB
`
`Bfikfi
`
`B5LW
`
`85%”
`
`Bfikfi
`
`Bfikfl
`
`probably use a jersey knit method to create that.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`You don't know the technical details
`
`:
`
`how they get
`
`the jersey knit versus —— versus the
`
`ib? That's for the technical guy?
`
`A.
`
`The technical guy would be doing
`
`the jersey —— using the machine to build the
`
`technical fabrics, and then they would work with the
`
`designers to see whether or not that,
`
`in
`
`ac_, did
`
`what
`
`they did. And they would be playing with
`
`B51” L
`
`di”"erent threads and di””erent kinds of materials
`
`B513 L
`
`to find what
`
`they wanted.
`
`13:51:34
`
`Bfitfl
`
`:_
`
`;
`
`Q.
`
`"Right. Right.
`
`But that's oitside of your area?
`
`B5t% ;
`
`A.
`
`That's a —— that's probably a textile
`
`85%” L
`
`engineer's job.
`
`Bfikw ;
`
`Bstm ;
`
`Bfikfl
`
`;
`
`Q.
`
`A,
`
`Q.
`
`And you're not a textile engineer?
`
`NO_
`
`Other than this case, have you ever
`
`35%“ L
`
`consulted with Target?
`
`13354
`
`Bfikfi
`
`851%
`
`13304
`
`851%
`
`B533
`
`&. L%CH1% fl%R: Objection.
`
`Form.
`
`”{fi W TN%SS: Been on a case opposing them.
`
`.
`
`.
`
`.
`
`BY MR. POLLACK: What case was that?
`
`it was a copyright infringement.
`
`Is it —— you have some cases listed in
`
`CV on page 3.
`
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`DMC Exhibit 2018_139
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`
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`FRANCES HARDER
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`April 24, 2014
`
`B518
`
`B513
`
`B528
`
`B518
`
`852%
`
`13:53:04
`
`B51%
`
`B51”
`
`13:53:12
`
`A. Where is tha'
`
`Q.
`
`A_
`
`Q.
`
`it's Harder Deposition Txhibit
`
`lO.
`
`Okay_
`
`Is it —— is it any o:
`
`the cases that are
`
`listed there?
`
`A_
`
`Q.
`
`NO _
`
`:
`
`think you said you participated in
`
`six cases. Are there two cases that you didn't list
`
`On E/Qur
`
`861M ;
`
`A.
`
`I
`
`think th s
`
`w r
`
`th on s that went
`
`to
`
`Bfiiw L
`
`trial.
`
`That was why I had —— : had them listed.
`
`Bfiifl
`
`Bfiifi
`
`;
`
`;
`
`th nk " asked the attorneys,
`
`"Do you want me to have
`
`al' o‘ them down?" Because i have more than that.
`
`851W '
`
`"
`
`think th s
`
`w r
`
`tn on s that went
`
`to trial.
`
`851% ;
`
`Q.
`
`Were you deposed in the other —— in the
`
`Bfiifl
`
`;
`
`other two?
`
`13$32;_
`
`Bfiifl
`
`Bfiifi
`
`;
`
`;
`
`B51”
`
`851%
`
`B51“
`
`13:53:46
`
`B5$%
`
`13:53:48
`
`A”
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`yes_
`
`Okay.
`
`So you were deposed in six cases?
`
`More than that total over —— you know, but
`
`they didn't all go to trial.
`
`Q.
`
`Did you testify at trial
`
`in all
`
`these cases?
`
`_
`
`.
`
`_\lQ _
`
`Did you testify at trial in any o:
`
`CENTEXT LEGAL SERVICES
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`DMC Exhibit 2018_140
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`
`
`FRANCES HARDER
`
`April 24, 2014
`
`B51“
`
`851$
`
`Bfiifl
`
`B515
`
`B535
`
`B51“
`
`B5¢W
`
`35AM
`
`B5¢W
`
`A.
`
`No.
`
`They —— these went
`
`to trial, but
`
`I
`
`didn't have to testity.
`
`O.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`Do you know why not?
`
`No,
`
`I don't know why.
`
`Okay.
`
`Do you know whether you were
`
`excluded from testifying at trial in any of these
`
`cases?
`
`A,
`
`Q.
`
`No,
`
`: wasn't excluded.
`
`Okay. Did you know that motions were
`
`B5¢% L
`
`to exclude you it any of these cases?
`
`13:54:07
`
`:_
`
`B5¢% L
`
`B6¢W ;
`
`B5¢B ’
`
`B5¢W ;
`
`B5¢N ;
`
`B6¢H ;
`
`B5¢% L
`
`B5¢% ’
`
`B5¢%
`
`B5¢B
`
`B5¢%
`
`13:54:38
`
`85¢”
`
`B5i%
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`.
`
`.
`
`No.
`
`You didn't know that?
`
`No,
`
`: was not.
`
`No one ‘i ed to exclude me.
`
`— no one —— as far as I'm aware,
`
`there's
`
`I've never been told that I've been --
`
`tried to file to exclude me.
`
`Okay.
`
`You didn't know that there were
`
`'
`
`i think,
`
`in all four —— in three of the
`
`to exclude you?
`
`'
`
`'
`
`Q.
`
`And no one discussed with you what
`
`the
`
`outcomes were of any of those motions?
`
`A_
`
`NO _
`
`.
`
`Okay. Have you ever consulted with Liz
`
`CENTEXT LEGAL SERVICES
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`DMC Exhibit 2018_141
`
`
`
`FRANCES HARDER
`
`April 24, 2014
`
`1355106
`
`855%
`
`13:55:06
`
`B5i%
`
`855M
`
`B5iW
`
`11516
`
`355%
`
`B53“
`
`855% ;
`
`1&$45;_
`
`855% L
`
`*'.POS 'l' ON OJ:'J:' C*'.R: With who?
`
`R. POLLACK: Liz Lange.
`
`«.208
`
`ON ow cm:
`
`'l'hank you.
`
`“ 4 W EN%SS: No,
`
`that I'm aware o:.
`
`.
`
`BY MR. POLLACK: Have you ever consulted
`
`with a company Called Cherokee,
`
`Inc.?
`
`Ad
`
`Q.
`
`vO_
`
`lave you ever heard o:
`
`the term ":
`
`panel" in regard to maternity clothes?
`
`A.
`
`Q,
`
`A.
`
`Full panel?
`
`yeah_
`
`Full panel.
`
`I'm not quite sure.
`
`You gotta
`
`B558 ;
`
`put it in a sentence.
`
`i'm not sure whether it means
`
`13554 ;
`
`the panel for the —— panel for the maternity panel.
`
`355% ’
`
`"s that what you --
`
`355% ;
`
`B55” L
`
`B5i% ;
`
`Q,
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`yeS_
`
`—— are referring to?
`
`"'m re‘erring to the panel
`
`856% L
`
`the maternity panel.
`
`356%
`
`856%
`
`B56%
`
`856W
`
`B56“
`
`B56“
`
`A.
`
`Okay. Right. Okay. Yes,
`
`I have.
`
`.
`
`Okay. What does ‘ul' panel mean?
`
`A.
`
`:'m not quite sure o: your terminology i
`
`the full panel,
`
`so I'm hesitant to give you a 'u'
`
`description on that.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay. What does it mean to you? Forget
`
`CENTEXT LEGAL SERVICES
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`DMC Exhibit 2018_142
`
`
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`FRANCES HARDER
`
`April 24, 2014
`
`8568
`
`8568
`
`856%
`
`856%
`
`856%
`
`8563
`
`856M-
`
`856W
`
`856%
`
`about what it means to me. What —— in your
`
`understanding, what is a full panel?
`
`A, Well,
`
`a full panel, it could either go all
`
`the way around the body or it could be just in the
`
`front part of the body,
`
`fron- panel or a “ul'
`
`circumference panel.
`
`It would depend on how
`
`you would —— how you were using it and what
`
`terminology.
`
`Q. Well, what makes it full? What makes it a
`
`13:56:42
`
`'
`
`':U_'|'| panel?
`
`856% l
`
`A. Well, if it's a full panel circumferencing
`
`856% l
`
`the body or whether it's a panel just in the front
`
`856% l
`
`o:
`
`the pant.
`
`856% ;
`
`Q.
`
`So a full panel is one that goes around the
`
`8568 l
`
`entire body?
`
`856%-l
`
`A.
`
`l honestly —— l would prefer not
`
`to make a
`
`856W l
`
`judgment on that because I'm not sure how —— how
`
`856% l
`
`it's being referred to,
`
`in which terms, whether it's
`
`BSTW ;
`
`a full panel circumferencing the body or whether
`
`85T%
`
`85?”
`
`85?”
`
`85T8
`
`13:57:15
`
`mfirw
`
`it's a full
`
`front panel.
`
`Q. What's a full
`
`front panel?
`
`Al Well,
`
`that would be the panel
`
`talked about earlier that's sewn in to
`
`the pant ——
`
`Q_
`
`Okay_
`
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`DMC Exhibit 2018_143
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`
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`FRANCES HARDER
`
`April 24, 2014
`
`B5T%
`
`B5?”
`
`11930
`
`B5TB
`
`357%
`
`B5TN
`
`13:57:31
`
`B5?“
`
`A.
`
`—— or it could be a full panel that
`
`encompasses the whole body.
`
`Q.
`
`So for a —— ‘or a tull
`
`‘ront panel that is
`
`in the jront oi
`
`the pants, what makes it full? Why
`
`is it Called a ‘u_1 panel?
`
`A.
`
`Because it's encompassing the
`
`the pant _
`
`Q.
`
`{ow high —— is there anything special about
`
`13W34
`
`the height o" a
`
`”u11 panel or not really?
`
`Bfiffl
`
`;
`
`B5?“ ;
`
`Mk. L%CH1% Tfikz Objection to form.
`
`Tifi W TN%SS:
`
`I don't think there's a
`
`Bfiffl
`
`;
`
`measurement on it,
`
`so : co;ldn't give you a
`
`B5T% i
`
`definition.
`
`B5T% i
`
`Q.
`
`BY MR. POLLACK: Yeah.
`
`Bfifw ;
`
`: mean —— I mean, does a full panel go
`
`B5?“ ;
`
`higher than other kinds of panels on —— on the
`
`:_
`
`;
`
`;
`
`13:57:51
`
`Bfiffl
`
`Bfiffl
`
`B5?“
`
`85$“
`
`358%
`
`B5&W
`
`B5&W
`
`B5&U
`
`tojfsg?
`
`Mk. L:C1LjiTjR: Objection.
`
`Form.
`
`Tifi W wnassz Full pane; couid be the ‘u'1 panel
`
`that's to the pant
`
`top or it couid be extending
`
`above,
`
`so it depends on —— on how you're determining
`
`the structure around the full panel, how you're
`
`going to J88 it.
`
`Q.
`
`BY MR. POLLACK: Okay.
`
`So full panel could
`
`mean just extending to the top o:
`
`the pants?
`
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`FRANCES HARDER
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`April 24, 2014
`
`13:58:14
`
`B6&B
`
`1
`
`2
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes.
`
`Did you see any prior art that you reviewed
`
`B5&% 3
`
`for this case that had a ‘u’l panel?
`
`B5&M 4
`
`A.
`
`Let me review that.
`
`1id
`
`re‘erence that
`
`MDOW 5
`
`in my report?
`
`MOON
`
`14:00:01
`
`MOON
`
`MflO%
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`No,
`
`: don't think so.
`
`Okay.
`
`: was just wondering if you saw anything
`
`that had a full panel.
`
`MD&% ;O
`
`A.
`
`I don't reca".
`
`"'m just wondering i-
`
`M00% 1
`
`had it in my report, " you could refer -o it.
`
`MOON ;2
`
`Q.
`
`No. No.
`
`"
`
`’dn't see that term in your
`
`M008 ;3
`
`report.
`
`M008 ;4
`
`A.
`
`Okay.
`
`So I —— without reading everything,
`
`M005 ’5
`
`" have no reCol'eCt’on —— recognition o:
`
`of what
`
`MQQR ;6
`
`you mean by "‘u" panel," so it's hard for me to
`
`MDOH ;7
`
`give you a de‘in’tion.
`
`M003 L8
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`3ut,
`
`: mean, using your
`
`MDQM-;9
`
`understanding o
`
`"ull panel, did you see any prior
`
`M0&N 20
`
`art that had a ‘u'l panel?
`
`MQQE 21
`
`A.
`
`I'm confused to what you really mean by
`
`M005 22
`
`full panel," so it's hard for me to give you a
`
`MDOR 23
`
`or "no" on that.
`
`M009 24
`
`.
`
`Okay. Well, you saf
`
`ier it was --
`
`MDOM 25 well, let's take a full pane:
`
`fiull
`
`firont panel.
`
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`FRANCES HARDER
`
`April 24, 2014
`
`M00“
`
`M00“
`
`Mflfiw
`
`M003
`
`MDOW
`
`MOLW
`
`MDLW
`
`MOLW
`
`M0t%
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Jh—huh.
`
`“id you see any prior art that had a
`
`front panel?
`
`A.
`
`I
`
`think w ‘V
`
`s
`
`n vid nc s of panels in
`
`. Bowdry [sic] with a panel
`
`in the front --
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`n %rowder?
`
`—— and a panel
`
`in the back. Browder.
`
`. Which —— which figures in Qrowder show
`
`ful' panel —— a full
`
`front panel?
`
`MDLW ;
`
`. Well, whether it's full,
`
`" mean, you've got
`
`MDLU ;
`
`Figure l which has a panel
`
`in -he front.
`
`MDLM ;
`
`MOLW ;
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Okay. That's the control area?
`
`That's right. And then Figure 3 has got a
`
`Mfltm ;
`
`panel that circumferences the body. And then on
`
`MDLM ;
`
`Figure 5, you've got a panel
`
`in the front of the
`
`14:01:27
`
`:_
`
`skirt.
`
`Mflkfi
`
`MDLW ;
`
`MDLM
`
`MDLB
`
`Mflkfi
`
`M01”
`
`1¢m40
`
`MDEB
`
`MQLW
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q,
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q_
`
`A.
`
`Is '
`
`Jha'
`
`Qkay_
`
`is that a ful'
`
`front panel?
`
`'
`
`'1 front panei.
`
`And then 7 has a panel.
`
`is that a full
`
`front panel
`
`it looks like a full panel.
`
`okay,
`
`And then on Figure ll,
`
`the maternity pants,
`
`they have a panel
`
`in :he front.
`
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`
`FRANCES HARDER
`
`April 24, 2014
`
`morn
`
`MDLW
`
`Mflkfl
`
`MDEB
`
`MDLW
`
`M01“
`
`MDZW
`
`M0Z%
`
`M01”
`
`Q,
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`you __
`
`And l0,
`
`too.
`
`L0 and ll.
`
`Okay.
`
`So in l;, you would consider that --
`
`the non—control area there to be a ‘ull
`
`‘ront panel?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Correct.
`
`Okay. And what —— what is it that makes --
`
`let's take Figure ll. What is it that makes the
`
`panel
`
`in ?igure 1’
`
`a ‘ull
`
`‘ront panel?
`
`A.
`
`Because it encompasses the body —— the
`
`M01“ L
`
`torso, bottom part o:
`
`the torso,
`
`front panel.
`
`M019 ;
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`I have one other term I was hoping
`
`MQZW L
`
`to understand.
`
`Do you —— do you know the term
`
`M02“ L
`
`"high—rise front panel"?
`
`Mflln ;
`
`Mk. L%CHL% T%R: Objection.
`
`Form.
`
`MDZB ;
`
`Tlfi W TN%SS: High rise? High rise, as we
`
`MDZ% ;
`
`talked about
`
`low rise, would be the opposite o:
`
`MDZW ;
`
`low rise,
`
`so it would be rising above the waist.
`
`MDZM-L
`
`Q.
`
`BY MR. POLLACK: And how high does a
`
`Mfllw ;
`
`high—rise front panel go?
`
`Mfllm
`
`14W06
`
`M01”
`
`Mfllm
`
`Mflim
`
`M01”
`
`A.
`
`That varies again. Could be an inch, could
`
`be 2
`
`inches, could be 4
`
`inches, could be more than
`
`that.
`
`So a high rise could have an ending below the
`
`breasts,
`
`so it depends on the definition o: how
`
`rise —— how high you want the rise to be.
`
`Q.
`
`So it could be below the breast or it could
`
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`
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`FRANCES HARDER
`
`April 24, 2014
`
`M013
`
`be not below the breast?
`
`14%24
`
`Mfllfi
`
`M013
`
`H055
`
`Mfiifl
`
`M055
`
`Mfliw
`
`Mflifl
`
`.A.
`
`It could be mid —— yeah, mid—torso above
`
`the waist.
`
`it normally refers to above the waist.
`
`Q.
`
`Turn to paragraph l6 of your declaration.
`
`You say about midway down,
`
`"A POSA" —— P—O—S—A --
`
`"could make moditications to garments to render them
`
`suitable for use during pregnancy based on market
`
`demand for designs including speci"ic "eatures
`
`and/or design needs or market pressures to solve a
`
`Mflifi
`
`;
`
`problem with a finite number of solutions."
`
`Mfliw ;
`
`14%40Z_
`
`M03“ ;
`
`1¢%42j_
`
`Mflifl
`
`Mflifl
`
`Mflifl
`
`;
`
`;
`
`'
`
`M06% ’
`
`14%08
`
`MD&%
`
`14%09
`
`M068
`
`Mflflm
`
`Mflfim
`
`.
`
`.
`
`.
`
`,
`
`.
`
`.
`
`"
`
`"
`
`'
`
`'
`
`vid
`
`read that correctly?
`
`Correct.
`
`Okay. First
`
`f all, what's —— what's a
`
`Person of —— oh,
`
`I'm crazy.
`
`A person o:
`
`: don't know this one o”” my heart.
`
`Sorry.
`
`- getting a total blank.
`
`It's a person o:
`
`- being —— : don't know.
`
`i'm sorry.
`
`i'm
`
`Qkay_
`
`—— getting a mental —— a mental block here.
`
`No problem.
`
`Let me ask ——
`
`A.
`
`?erson of obvious —— it will come to me in
`
`M063
`
`a second.
`
`Sorry.
`
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`
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`FRANCES HARDER
`
`April 24, 2014
`
`14%24
`
`M06%
`
`M06”
`
`M06”
`
`M06”
`
`M06”
`
`M0&”
`
`M06”
`
`M06“
`
`.
`
`Okay.
`
`No problem.
`
`A.
`
`It will come to me in a minute. Okay.
`
`Go
`
`on with your question, and I'll come back to it.
`
`I'm sorry.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`No --
`
`know what it is, but I'm just --
`
`No problem.
`
`—— getting a mental block.
`
`Prior to —— prior to working on this case,
`
`Mfléfl
`
`l
`
`had you ever heard of anything called a POSA or
`
`14%fl6j_
`
`PQSA?
`
`M0&% l
`
`A.
`
`A person of —— yeah,
`
`I have heard o:
`
`M06” l
`
`But a person o‘ ordinary skills and arts or
`
`M0&% ;
`
`something like that.
`
`14:06:57
`
`l
`
`M0&% l
`
`14:07:00
`
`l
`
`14WO0I_
`
`Q .
`
`Right .
`
`A person of ordinary skill in the art?
`
`.
`
`.
`
`Yes .
`
`Okay.
`
`MDTW ;
`
`A.
`
`Okay. Got it. Yes,
`
`I have. But, you
`
`M0TW
`
`14W06
`
`M0T%
`
`M0TB
`
`M0T%
`
`M0TW
`
`know,
`
`l don't normally use it in every day, but
`
`have heard o‘ it.
`
`Q.
`
`Now,
`
`"
`
`think in here you gave a definition
`
`f a person o‘ ordinary skill in the art?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Right.
`
`{ow did you come up with that definition?
`
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`DMC Exhibit 2018_149
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`
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`FRANCES HARDER
`
`April 24, 2014
`
`MDT”
`
`MDTB
`
`Mfllfi
`
`Mfllfl
`
`M0?”
`
`M0?“
`
`MDT”
`
`Mfllfl
`
`A.
`
`Because we were —— I
`
`think we were
`
`discussing what it would need for an ordinary person
`
`in the arts to be able to take the existing --
`
`pre—existing artwork to come to the conclusion that
`
`was obvious to create a maternity pant with an
`
`extended tubular knit to go over tqe be "y.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`So you looked for -he kind of person
`
`who would come to a conclusion _ha_ it was obvious
`
`M0T%
`
`to come up with the invention at issue in this case?
`
`Mflfw ;
`
`Mflifl
`
`;
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Correct.
`
`Okay. Did you do that on your own or you
`
`MD&M-;
`
`did that with the assistance of counsel?
`
`M0&% ;
`
`A.
`
`i did that basically on my own because i'm
`
`M0&W ;
`
`probably the only one who would understand how to
`
`MD&fl
`
`;
`
`create that and how to come up with that,
`
`taking and
`
`M0&B ;
`
`putting it together and constructing it --
`
`Mo&w ;
`
`MD&W ;
`
`MD&N ;
`
`M0&M-
`
`M0&%
`
`M08“
`
`M0&%
`
`M0&W
`
`M0&W
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`O.
`
`Okay.
`
`—— with the materials that are available.
`
`Okay. Going back to 16, we were reading
`
`this sentence where i: says,
`
`"A POSA" —— or person
`
`of ordinary skill in the art —— "could make
`
`modifications to garments to render them suitable
`
`for use during pregnancy based on market demand..."
`
`Is it your view that
`
`the jact _haL it's
`
`technically possible to produce items to meet
`
`those
`
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`DMC Exhibit 2018_150
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`
`
`FRANCES HARDER
`
`April 24, 2014
`
`MD9%
`
`M09”
`
`Mfl9W
`
`M09W
`
`M090
`
`14:09:13
`
`M095
`
`M09W
`
`M093
`
`demands,
`
`is —— is that what makes the invention in
`
`this case obvious?
`
`Mk. L%CHL% Tfikz Objection to form.
`
`Tifi W TN%SS: What is the question? Sorry.
`
`Can
`
`you repeat twat?
`
`Q.
`
`3Y VIR. POLLACK: Yeah. Maybe
`
`rephrase it.
`
`is what you're saying here that a person o:
`
`ordinary skill has the ability to make or produce
`
`M993 ;
`
`products to meet market demands,
`
`is that what makes
`
`MD9fl
`
`;
`
`the invention in this case obvious,
`
`in your view?
`
`MD9% ;
`
`A.
`
`I
`
`thin< that taking all the prior art that
`
`M09“ L
`
`was available and also seeing the demand,
`
`that it
`
`M09% L
`
`would be obvious.
`
`MD9% ;
`
`M09” 1
`
`Q.
`
`Yeah.
`
`: understand that.
`
`Qut
`
`is it —— is it obvious because —— is
`
`MD9fl
`
`;
`
`what you're saying is —— is it obvious because a
`
`MD9% ;
`
`person of ordinary skill could technically make the