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` U N I T E D S T A T E S P A T E N T A N D T R A D E M A R K O F F I C E
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` B E F O R E T H E P A T E N T T R I A L A N D A P P E A L B O A R D
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` ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
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`I n t h e M a t t e r o f :
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`C O N O P C O , I N C . , d / b / a U N I L E V E R ,
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` P e t i t i o n e r ,
`
` v .
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`T H E P R O C T E R A N D G A M B L E C O M P A N Y ,
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` P a t e n t O w n e r .
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`C a s e I P R 2 0 1 4 - 0 0 5 0 6 A N D C a s e I P R - 2 0 1 4 - 0 0 5 0 7
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` ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
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` T e l e p h o n i c h e a r i n g b e f o r e
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` J u d g e G r a c e K a r a f f a O b e r m a n n
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` J u d g e L o r a M . G r e e n
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` J u d g e R a m a G . E l l u r u
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` A u g u s t 1 9 , 2 0 1 4
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` 1 0 : 3 1 a . m .
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` T a k e n a t :
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` 1 3 0 1 E a s t N i n t h S t r e e t , S u i t e 1 0 0
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` C l e v e l a n d , O H 4 4 1 1 4
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` C h r i s t i n e M . K r a u s e
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`A P P E A R A N C E S :
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` O n b e h a l f o f t h e P e t i t i o n e r :
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` F O L E Y & L A R D N E R L L P , b y
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` M I C H A E L R . H O U S T O N , E S Q .
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` 3 2 1 N o r t h C l a r k S t r e e t
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` S u i t e 2 8 0 0
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` C h i c a g o , I L 6 0 6 5 4
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` 3 1 2 - 8 3 2 - 4 5 8 3
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` m h o u s t o n @ f o l e y . c o m
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` O n b e h a l f o f t h e P a t e n t O w n e r :
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` J o n e s D a y , b y
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` D A V I D M . M A I O R A N A , E S Q .
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` M I C H A E L S . W E I N S T E I N , E S Q .
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` J O H N V . B I E R N A C K I , E S Q .
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` N o r t h P o i n t
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` 9 0 1 L a k e s i d e A v e n u e E a s t , S u i t e 2
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` C l e v e l a n d , O H 4 4 1 1 4
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` 2 1 6 - 5 8 6 - 3 9 3 9
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` d m a i o r a n a @ j o n e s d a y . c o m
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` m s w e i n s t e i n @ j o n e s d a y . c o m
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` j v b i e r n a c k i @ j o n e s d a y . c o m
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`A L S O P R E S E N T :
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` E d w a r d S q u i l l a n t e , U n i l e v e r
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` R o n a l d K o a t z , U n i l e v e r
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` ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
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`www.veritext.com
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`888-391-3376
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`

`

` TRANSCRIPT INDEX
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`Page 3
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`APPEARANCES............................... 2
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`INDEX OF EXHIBITS ........................ none
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`REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE.................... 13
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`EXHIBIT CUSTODY
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`Page 4
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` THE COURT: Good morning. This is
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`a conference call in IPR 2014-00506 and
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`2014-00507.
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` This is the Judge Obermann. I have
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`Judge Green and Judge Elluru on the line with
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`me. I will start with the roll call.
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` May I hear who is on the line for
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`petitioner?
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` MR. SQUILLANTE: This is Ed
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`Squillante and Ron Koatz from Unilever.
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` THE COURT: Thank you.
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` MR. HOUSTON: And Michael Houston
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`of Foley and Lardner, also on behalf of
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`Unilever.
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` THE COURT: Thank you.
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` Anyone else for Unilever?
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` Okay. How about for patent owner?
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` MR. MAIORANA: Good morning, your
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`Honor, this is David Maiorana from Jones Day on
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`behalf of Procter and Gamble and I am joined by
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`John Biernacki and Michael Weinstein.
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` THE COURT: Okay. Has either side
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`retained a court reporter for this conference?
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` I will start with petitioner.
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` MR. HOUSTON: No, we have not, your
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`Page 5
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`Honor.
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` THE COURT: Patent owner?
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` MR. MAIORANA: We did, your Honor,
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`there should be one on the line, I hope.
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` THE COURT: Okay.
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` THE NOTARY: I am on the line.
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` THE COURT: Thank you very much.
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` I will ask counsel for patent owner
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`to please file a copy of the transcript as an
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`exhibit in due course.
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` MR. MAIORANA: Yes, your Honor.
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` THE COURT: Thank you.
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` Okay. This conference call was
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`requested by the patent owner and our
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`understanding is that the patent owner seeks
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`authorization to file written responses to the
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`request for a hearing that petitioner filed in
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`both cases.
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` So because the patent owner
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`requested the call, I will ask counsel for
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`patent owner to please go first and explain the
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`basis for the release that you request.
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` MR. MAIORANA: Thank you, your
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`Honor. Again, this is David Maiorana for
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`patent owner.
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`Page 6
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` The reason for the request to file
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`responses, we understand that, you know,
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`typically patent owners do not get a chance or
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`the opposing party does not get an opportunity
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`to file a response to a request for your
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`hearing ordinarily, but it's our view that the
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`petitioner here is asking for extraordinary
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`relief. They are asking for an expanded panel
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`to hear their request and -- which we don't
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`believe is provided for in the rules and we
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`would like an opportunity to explain why we
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`think that is. And they also, we feel, made an
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`improper communication to the chief judge by
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`sending a copy of their petition directly to
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`the chief judge.
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` We feel like those factors provide
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`a basis for the patent owner to provide a
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`response to these requests for a hearing in
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`this instance.
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` THE COURT: Okay. I will ask you
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`this, what I'm hearing is that you want to
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`respond only to those two particular things or
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`do you want to respond on the merits as well?
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`And if so, why?
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` MR. MAIORANA: Well, to be honest,
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`Page 7
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`your Honor, the case for responding on the
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`other issues is not as compelling. We think
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`that the board can deal with those other
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`aspects of the requests without hearing from
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`us. We would be happy to address all of those
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`if the board so requests us to, but our request
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`for our opportunity to file an opposition would
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`be related to this request in both petitions
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`for an expanded panel that would include the
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`chief judge to hear the request in the first
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`place.
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` THE COURT: Okay. And you would be
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`able to address the -- whether it is warranted
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`without reaching the merits of the request for
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`rehearing?
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` MR. MAIORANA: Yes, your Honor.
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` THE COURT: Okay. Anything else
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`from counsel for patent owner?
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` MR. MAIORANA: No. Thank you.
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` THE COURT: Okay. In that case I
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`will turn it over to counsel for petitioner.
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` We understand that you oppose
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`patent owner's request and I would like you to
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`please explain the basis for your opposition.
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` MR. HOUSTON: Sure, your Honor.
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`Page 8
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` First of all, I will just mention
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`that this is the first time that we have heard
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`the specific issues on which patent owner had
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`proposed to file an opposition. They simply
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`asked us about our permission for filing
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`opposition in general and our position was just
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`that such oppositions don't seem to be provided
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`for in the rules. And, therefore, we indicated
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`that we didn't think that was appropriate.
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` As to the specific issues that they
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`raised, they don't seem to be covered by the
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`rules specifically. And so, I suppose, I would
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`defer to the board. If the board was inclined
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`to hear the patent owner speak on those topics
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`then we certainly, you know, would not take a
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`position on that.
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` THE COURT: Am I hearing you to
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`withdraw any opposition to the filing of the
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`paper that is limited to the two issues that
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`were raised by patent owner's counsel?
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` MR. HOUSTON: Well, your Honor, it
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`certainly is our position that we don't think
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`that those oppositions are provided for under
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`the rules. But if the board is so inclined to
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`hear those oppositions, we would defer to the
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`Page 9
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`board's decision on the that topic.
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` THE COURT: Okay. Okay. I'm going
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`-- do you have anything else to add counsel for
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`petitioner?
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` MR. HOUSTON: No, your Honor.
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` THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. I'm
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`just going to mute the line for a few minutes.
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`Please stay on the line and then we will come
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`back. The panel is going to mute you.
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` (Short recess had.)
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` THE COURT: This is Judge Obermann
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`back on the line with Judges Green and Elluru.
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` We have taken this under
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`consideration. And the fact that petitioner
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`has styled their papers as a request for a
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`hearing by an expanded panel, including the
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`chief administrative patent judge, combined
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`with the fact that the paper was served upon
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`the chief administrative patent judge, that
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`alone tells us that there is something that
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`patent owner, I'm sorry, the petitioner deems
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`extraordinary about these requests to take them
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`outside of the normal course of things.
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` In view of that, we are going to
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`provide patent owner with the opportunity to
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`Page 10
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`file a five-page opposition to this -- limited
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`to the two issues that were raised here,
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`basically whether an expanded panel is
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`warranted and whether it was improper to serve
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`the chief judge and if so what release is
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`requested.
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` That brief will be due in five
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`business days, which will take us to, let me
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`just check the calendar here, I apologize, one,
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`two, three, four, next Tuesday, August 26th, we
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`will make that paper due.
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` I will start with counsel for
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`patent owner, do you have anything else to add
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`at this time?
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` MR. MAIORANA: No, your Honor,
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`thank you for your consideration.
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` THE COURT: Sure.
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` Anything from petitioner at this
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`time?
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` MR. HOUSTON: Yes, your Honor.
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` I would just like to ask, to the
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`extent that patent owner is going to suggest
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`that we have an improper communication with the
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`patent office, we would be afforded an
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`opportunity to reply to such a suggestion.
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`Page 11
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` THE COURT: We would be willing to
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`give you three pages if you think that reply is
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`necessary. And we would make that reply due on
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`-- would August 29th be okay or do you need
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`more time?
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` MR. HOUSTON: Let me see. I want
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`to make sure, is there an intervening weekend
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`there?
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` THE COURT: No, it would come in on
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`a Tuesday and then we would ask for it on a
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`Friday.
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` MR. HOUSTON: That should be fine,
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`your, Honor.
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` THE COURT: Okay. In that case, we
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`will permit a sir reply, I guess we would call
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`it, on the 29th if necessary. And we will
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`limit that to three pages.
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` If you have any questions about how
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`to calculate those page limits there is a rule
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`that tells you what is included in the page
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`limits, things like your signature block and,
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`you know, cover sheet don't count.
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` MR. HOUSTON: Sure.
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` THE COURT: Are there any other
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`issues that you would like to address since we
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`Page 12
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`h a v e a l l c o u n s e l o n t h e p h o n e a t t h i s t i m e ?
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` I ' l l s t a r t w i t h t h e c o u n s e l f o r
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`p a t e n t o w n e r ?
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` M R . M A I O R A N A : N o t h i n g f r o m t h e
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`p a t e n t o w n e r . T h a n k y o u , y o u r H o n o r .
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` T H E C O U R T : T h a n k y o u .
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` A n y t h i n g f r o m p e t i t i o n e r ?
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` M R . H O U S T O N : N o , y o u r H o n o r .
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`T h a n k y o u .
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` T H E C O U R T : O k a y . T h a n k y o u .
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` I w o u l d j u s t , a g a i n , r e q u e s t t h a t
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`p a t e n t o w n e r p l e a s e f i l e a c o p y o f t h e
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`t r a n s c r i p t a s a n e x h i b i t i n d u e c o u r s e . A n d
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`w i t h t h a t I w i l l c o n c l u d e t h e c o n f e r e n c e .
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` T h a n k y o u , c o u n s e l .
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` M R . M A I O R A N A : T h a n k y o u , y o u r
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`H o n o r .
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` M R . H O U S T O N : T h a n k y o u .
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`( T e l e p h o n i c h e a r i n g c o n c l u d e d a t 1 0 : 4 1 a . m . )
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`

`

` REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
`
`Page 13
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` I, Christine M. Krause, do hereby
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`certify that as such Reporter I took down in
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`Stenotypy all of the proceedings had in the
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`foregoing transcript; that I have transcribed
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`my said Stenotype notes into typewritten form
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`as appears in the foregoing transcript; that
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`said transcript is the complete form of the
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`proceedings had in said cause and constitutes a
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`true and correct transcript therein.
`
` ________________________________
`
` Christine M. Krause, Notary Public
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` within and for the State of Ohio
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`My commission expires January 19, 2019.
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`

`I do further certify that I am not a
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`relative, counsel or attorney for either party,
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`or otherwise interested in the event of this
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`action.
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`IN WITNESS WHEREOF,
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`I have hereunto
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`set my hand and affixed my seal of office at
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`Cleveland, Ohio, on this
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`2L2»
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`day of
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`
`
` Christine M. Krause, Notary Public
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`
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`.within and for the State of Ohio
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`My commission expires December 19, 2019.
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`100 1:21
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`13 3:8
`1301 1:21
`19 1:18 13:21
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`2 2:16 3:3
`2014 1:18
`2014-00506 4:2
`2014-00507 1:11 4:3
`2019 13:21
`216-586-3939 2:18
`26th 10:10
`2800 2:6
`29th 11:4,16
`3
`312-832-4583 2:8
`321 2:5
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`4
`44114 1:21 2:17
`6
`60654 2:7
`9
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`901 2:16
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`a.m. 1:19 12:19
`able 7:13
`add 9:3 10:13
`address 7:5,13
`11:25
`administrative 9:17
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`afforded 10:24
`apologize 10:9
`appeal 1:3
`appearances 2:1 3:3
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`appears 13:9
`appropriate 8:9
`asked 8:5
`asking 6:7,8
`aspects 7:4
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`11:4
`authorization 5:16
`avenue 2:16
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`b 1:6
`back 9:9,12
`basically 10:3
`basis 5:22 6:17 7:24
`behalf 2:2,10 4:13
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`believe 6:10
`biernacki 2:14 4:21
`block 11:21
`board 1:3 7:3,6 8:13
`8:13,24
`board's 9:1
`brief 10:7
`business 10:8
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`calculate 11:19
`calendar 10:9
`call 4:2,6 5:13,20
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`case 1:11,11 7:1,20
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`cases 5:18
`cause 13:11
`certainly 8:15,22
`certificate 3:8 13:1
`certify 13:5
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`chief 6:13,15 7:10
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`christine 1:23 13:4
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`clark 2:5
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`conclude 12:14
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`conference 4:2,23
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`constitutes 13:11
`copy 5:9 6:14 12:12
`correct 13:12
`counsel 5:8,20 7:18
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`count 11:22
`course 5:10 9:23
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`court 4:1,11,15,22
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`directly 6:14
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`east 1:21 2:16
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`either 4:22
`elluru 1:17 4:5 9:12
`esq 2:4,12,13,14
`exhibit 3:10 5:10
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`expires 13:21
`explain 5:21 6:11
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`extraordinary 6:7
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`feel 6:12,16
`file 5:9,16 6:1,5 7:7
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`first 5:21 7:10 8:1,2
`five 10:1,7
`foley 2:3 4:13
`foley.com 2:9
`foregoing 13:7,9
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`friday 11:11
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`[general - recess]
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`general 8:6
`give 11:2
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`going 9:2,7,9,24
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`happy 7:5
`hear 4:7 6:9 7:10
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`heard 8:2
`hearing 1:14 5:17
`6:6,18,21 7:4 8:17
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`honor 4:19 5:1,3,11
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`il 2:7
`improper 6:13 10:4
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`inclined 8:13,24
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`including 9:16
`index 3:1,5
`indicated 8:8
`instance 6:19
`intervening 11:7
`ipr 1:11 4:2
`ipr2014-00506 1:11
`issues 7:2 8:3,10,19
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`j
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`joined 4:20
`jones 2:11 4:19
`jonesday.com 2:19
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`4:5,5 6:13,15 7:10
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`judges 9:12
`jvbiernacki 2:21
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`karaffa 1:15
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`krause 1:23 13:4,17
`l
`lakeside 2:16
`lardner 2:3 4:13
`legal 1:20
`limit 11:17
`limited 8:19 10:1
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`line 4:5,7 5:4,6 9:7,8
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`llp 2:3
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`m 1:16,23 2:12 13:4
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`12:4,16
`marked 3:11
`matter 1:5
`mention 8:1
`merits 6:23 7:14
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`michael 2:4,13 4:12
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`minutes 9:7
`morning 4:1,18
`msweinstein 2:20
`mute 9:7,9
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`necessary 11:3,16
`need 11:4
`ninth 1:21
`normal 9:23
`north 2:5,15
`notary 5:6 13:17
`notes 13:8
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`obermann 1:15 4:4
`9:11
`office 1:1 10:24
`oh 1:21 2:17
`ohio 13:18
`okay 4:17,22 5:5,13
`6:20 7:12,17,20 9:2
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`opportunity 6:4,11
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`oppose 7:22
`opposing 6:4
`opposition 7:7,24
`8:4,6,18 10:1
`oppositions 8:7,23
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`outside 9:23
`owner 1:10 2:10
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`owner's 7:23 8:20
`owners 6:3
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`panel 6:8 7:9 9:9,16
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`paper 8:19 9:18
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`patent 1:1,3,10 2:10
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`position 8:6,16,22
`present 2:22
`proceedings 13:6,11
`procter 1:9 4:20
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`questions 11:18
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`r 2:4
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`Page 3
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`turn 7:21
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`united 1:1
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`v 1:8 2:14
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`view 6:6 9:24
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`want 6:21,23 11:6
`warranted 7:13
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`weekend 11:7
`weinstein 2:13 4:21
`willing 11:1
`withdraw 8:18
`written 5:16
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`[rehearing - written]
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`rehearing 7:15
`related 7:8
`release 5:22 10:5
`relief 6:8
`reply 10:25 11:2,3
`11:15
`reporter 4:23 13:5
`reporter's 3:8 13:1
`request 5:17,22 6:1
`6:5,9 7:6,8,10,14,23
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`requested 5:14,20
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`respond 6:22,23
`responding 7:1
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`retained 4:23
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`ronald 2:24
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`rules 6:10 8:8,12,24
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`s 2:13
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`trademark 1:1
`transcribed 13:7
`transcript 3:1 5:9
`12:13 13:7,9,10,12
`trial 1:3
`true 13:12
`tuesday 10:10 11:10
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