throbber
Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 87 of 131
`
`87
`
`And, you know,
`
`this —— this —— in some ways,
`
`it's like a child for me where I was
`
`involved in the
`
`original conception and developmen- o_ it.
`
`And the
`
`that
`
`I became convinced that we actually had an
`
`opportunity here to make a business and help people with
`
`this technology, and that was exciting to me.
`
`What
`
`is your position at VirnetX?
`
`I'm the Chief Science 0 ”icer.
`
`What are your responsibilities?
`
`I'm —— I'm responsible for the design,
`
`directing the development, and I do a lot of
`
`the
`
`development on the —— on the Gabriel prodic .
`
`Q.
`
`And tell us again, what stage of development
`
`is your Gabriel product
`
`in?
`
`A.
`
`It's at
`
`the beta stage.
`
`Are you continuing to develop it?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`But, Dr. Short, do you believe that
`
`Gabriel produc'
`
`can be successful
`
`in internet
`
`applications i- Microsoft continues to infringe your
`
`patent?
`
`MR. %O%ROW:
`
`I need to object.
`
`assumes that Microsoft, again,
`
`is infringing.
`
`THE COURT: Overruled.
`
`Can you repeat
`
`the question, sir?
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. — Exhibit 1028, p. 1101
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1028, p. 1101
`
`

`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 88 of 131
`
`88
`
`(By Mr. Cawley) Yes, sir.
`
`Do you believe that your Gabriel product can
`
`be successful
`
`in internet applications it Microsott
`
`continues to infringe your patent?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`No, sir.
`
`Why not?
`
`I don't believe that —— that —— number one,
`
`don't believe we can compete with them,
`
`i: they decide
`
`to compete head—to—head with us.
`
`The other is,
`
`I
`
`think it's going to be
`
`di
`
`'icult,
`
`it not
`
`impossible,
`
`to team with other
`
`companies who have ‘o invest
`
`in this e "ort when they
`
`see the potential o: having to compete against
`
`Microsott.
`
`Q.
`
`And finally, Dr. Short,
`
`in —— in developing
`
`products such as Gabriel, did you try to avoid
`
`in‘ringing others’ patents?
`
`A.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`We were really caretul.
`
`comes to our attention that we need to license so.
`
`and we need to license the capability, we do that.
`
`Q.
`
`Thank you, Dr. Short.
`
`MR.
`
`TY:
`
`I'll pass the witness.
`
`T 3 CO QT: All right.
`
`Cross—exam.
`
`M<.
`
`%O <OW:
`
`Thank you, Your Honor.
`
`Your Honor, may I approach the witness
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. — Exhibit 1028, p. 1102
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1028, p. 1102
`
`

`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 89 of 131
`
`89
`
`with a notebook?
`
`T E COURT: Yes, you may.
`
`W lNfiSS:
`
`Excuse me.
`
`fiXAM NAl ON
`
`%ROW:
`
`Dr. Short, good morning.
`
`Good morning.
`
`My name is Jerry 3obrow.
`
`I represent
`
`have some questions :
`
`you this morning.
`
`And I wanted to start,
`
`i
`
`" might, with some
`
`questions about what you believe that you invented, and
`
`want
`
`to then take you back to around the year 2000
`
`when you filed your patent applications, okay?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay. Yes, sir.
`
`So I believe that your first patent was
`
`in February o: 2000, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`Now, certainly by that time,
`
`there were a
`
`number o:
`
`technologies that were already in existence
`
`for securing communications over the internet;
`
`is that
`
`fair?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`One o_
`
`-hose technologies —— and you alluded
`
`to it a little bit —— is the technology that was called
`
`https, correct?
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. — Exhibit 1028, p. 1103
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1028, p. 1103
`
`

`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 90 of 131
`
`90
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And you've already told us,
`
`i: we can keep all
`
`o:
`
`these letters straight, what https stood ior.
`
`And
`
`think you said it was something like hypertext trans:er
`
`protocol secure;
`
`is -ha- right?
`
`A.
`
`I believe
`
`-'s right.
`
`I may not be exactly
`
`right.
`
`Q.
`
`All right.
`
`And i‘
`
`" understand what you're
`
`saying, before your patents were filed, users oi
`
`the
`
`internet,
`
`like the people in this courtroom,
`
`i.
`
`-hey are
`
`at home or what—have—you,
`
`that they could use h -ps to
`
`set up a secure connection on the internet;
`
`is
`
`right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And one of the things that you could do to set
`
`up a secure connection on the int rn t b for
`
`th
`
`y ar
`
`2000, before you filed your patents, was you could be at
`
`your, say, home computer and you could type in something
`
`called a domain name;
`
`is that right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`So I could have a web browser opening like
`
`Internet ?xplorer;
`
`" could type in www.amazon.com; and
`
`that would take me
`
`to a website, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And with https, what
`
`I could do is type in
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. — Exhibit 1028, p. 1104
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1028, p. 1104
`
`

`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 91 of 131
`
`91
`
`https:\\www.amazon.com, and that would take me
`
`to a
`
`secure page at Amazon, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And then I could conduct e—commerce.
`
`I could
`
`buy a book;
`
`I could buy whatever product that was being
`
`sold at Amazon, right?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And I could do that securely, correct?
`
`That's correct.
`
`The credit card information, any other
`
`intormation " needed to enter that was priva-e -o me
`
`would be secure over the internet from my computer to
`
`Amazon, because it was encrypted, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`That's correct, yes, sir.
`
`And part o:
`
`that connection, and one o:
`
`issues I wanted to ask you about,
`
`is that when
`
`home,
`
`to crea-e -haL secure connection, all I have
`
`is type in https www.amazon.com and hit enter, and
`
`connection was automatically created, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And not
`
`just the connection but
`
`the secure
`
`connection was aitomatically created, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`correct?
`
`Yes,
`
`it was.
`
`Users didn't have to do anything else,
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. — Exhibit 1028, p. 1105
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1028, p. 1105
`
`

`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 92 of 131
`
`92
`
`:'s correct.
`
`So from the user's standpoint before 2000,
`
`what
`
`I could do was type in what's called the domain
`
`name, hit enter, and have a secure, encrypted
`
`connection, right?
`
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`
`Q.
`
`And the technology doing that connection was
`
`something called SSL, right?
`
`believe that's correc , yes, sir.
`
`Secure socket
`
`layer, SS.;
`
`is that right?
`
`jrom the user's perspective,
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And a"
`
`wasn“
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`It was :ast?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And it was,
`
`from the user's standpoint, fast,
`
`e ”icient and,
`
`frankly, user—friendly, wasn't
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes,
`
`it was.
`
`And that whole system, https,
`
`that's not
`
`something that you invented or Mr. Munger
`
`invented or
`
`any o: your co—inventors invented,
`
`is it?
`
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`
`Q.
`
`Now,
`
`i: we might, I'd like to pull up
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. — Exhibit 1028, p. 1106
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1028, p. 1106
`
`

`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 93 of 131
`
`93
`
`that explanation you gave.
`
`Remember, you used some
`
`animations and some '?ower'
`
`?oin
`
`ts and the like?
`
`MR.
`
`%O
`
`%ROW:
`
`we could pull up one o:
`
`Right.
`
`think we need to dim the
`
`don't think we can see that.
`
`Thank you very m
`
`Jch.
`
`Q.
`
`(Qy Mr.
`
`Qobrow)
`
`Now,
`
`Dr. Short,
`
`this is a
`
`_
`
`image
`
`from the presentation you gave in response
`
`'ainti
`
`"s counsel earlier today;
`
`is that right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And
`
`want
`
`to make sure
`
`understand the
`
`various elemen
`
`o_
`
`this,
`
`okay?
`
`A.
`
`Yes.
`
`Q.
`
`SO i"
`
`"'ve go:
`
`this right,
`
`up in the upper
`
`le‘t corner,
`
`have what
`
`you're calling a remote user,
`
`right?
`
`A.
`
`Q .
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`The remote user,
`
`think you even said it
`
`might be somebody at home,
`
`may be somebody at an
`
`airport,
`
`may be somebody at
`
`a hotel;
`
`this is somebody
`
`who is remote,
`
`correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q .
`
`A.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`Seeking access to the internet,
`
`right?
`
`Yes.
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. — Exhibit 1028, p. 1107
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1028, p. 1107
`
`

`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 94 of 131
`
`94
`
`Q.
`
`And that remote user may —— in this example
`
`that you've illustrated,
`
`the idea here is that that
`
`remote user could use https to get
`
`to Acme, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And I
`
`think what you're showing us and what
`
`you told us earlier is that on the internet what you do
`
`to communicate is you don't use physical envelopes,
`
`o:
`
`course, but you use something that you call packets,
`
`right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And I
`
`think what you were saying was that an
`
`envelope and a packet were kind o: similar in that they
`
`have information on the outside o:
`
`them, and they
`
`have information on the inside o:
`
`them, right?
`
`A.
`
`Yes.
`
`Q.
`
`When you were describing here how the https
`
`system works, what you were saying,
`
`I
`
`think,
`
`is that
`
`there's a source address and a destination address on
`
`the outside o:
`
`the packet, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And on the inside o:
`
`the packet
`
`is the
`
`content, right?
`
`The payload it's sometimes called,
`
`think, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And what you're showing there is that the
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. — Exhibit 1028, p. 1108
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1028, p. 1108
`
`

`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 95 of 131
`
`95
`
`https system would encrypt or scramble up the inner
`
`content o:
`
`the packet, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`But
`
`the outer parts o:
`
`the packet,
`
`the source
`
`address and the computer that was sending the message
`
`and the destination address o:
`
`the computer that would
`
`receive the message, would be visible, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`So if there was a hacker o.
`
`-he -ype you
`
`described earlier,
`
`somebody who, unjor,unately in this
`
`day and age, may be pulling information o
`
`the
`
`internet —— that hacker would be able to see the source
`
`address and the destination address, right?
`
`A.
`
`That's correc .
`
`Q.
`
`And as a result o:
`
`that,
`
`it would know which
`
`two computers were communicating with each other,
`
`correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`All right.
`
`Now,
`
`I understand from what you
`
`said that this automated system —— this easy automated
`
`system called https is something yo; didn't invent,
`
`right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`That's correct.
`
`There were a number or other elements involved
`
`in internet communication, secured internet
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. — Exhibit 1028, p. 1109
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1028, p. 1109
`
`

`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 96 of 131
`
`96
`
`communication you didn't
`
`invent either, right?
`
`A.
`
`I'm sure that's correct.
`
`Q.
`
`The whole domain name system is something that
`
`you didn't invent,
`
`is it?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`No, sir, we did not.
`
`The use o: domain names was something you
`
`didn't
`
`invent, correct?
`
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`
`Q.
`
`Encryption is something that you didn't
`
`invent
`
`in these patents, correct?
`
`A.
`
`That
`
`is correct.
`
`Q.
`
`And another thing that you didn't
`
`inven'
`
`related to secure communication were the actual V?Ns
`
`themselves, correct?
`
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`
`Q.
`
`V?Ns were already known prior to 2000 when you
`
`‘filed the patents, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And they were known before September
`
`l999 when
`
`you had the train ride that you described earlier,
`
`correct?
`
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`
`Q.
`
`By September o:
`
`l999,
`
`there were a number o:
`
`'erent kinds of V?Ns, weren't
`
`there?
`
`A.
`
`I believe that's correct, yes, sir.
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. — Exhibit 1028, p. 1110
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1028, p. 1110
`
`

`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 97 of 131
`
`97
`
`Q.
`
`One o:
`
`them that you described and spent
`
`some
`
`time over there, when you were marking up on those
`
`large, white boards,
`
`that was
`
`a V?N that was called an
`
`9 SfiC tunnel—mode V?N, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`All right.
`
`That was one V?N that was out
`
`there at
`
`the time prior to the filing o: your patents
`
`and prior to the time that you had the idea that
`
`led to
`
`your patents, correct?
`
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`
`But that wasn't
`
`the only one, was it?
`
`That's correct. Yes, sir.
`
`There was also something that was available
`
`those times that was called a 9919 VBN,
`
`.319 V-
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`I understand that's trae, yes, sir.
`
`And a
`
`.919 VBN, and I
`
`think —— you were here
`
`‘or the opening statements, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`I was, yes, sir.
`
`And so you heard something about
`
`that context, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`All right.
`
`But that
`
`is your understanding
`
`that was
`
`a V?N that was available before the year 2000?
`
`A.
`
`That's what
`
`I understand, yes, sir.
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. — Exhibit 1028, p. 1111
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1028, p. 1111
`
`

`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 98 of 131
`
`98
`
`And there was also a V?N that was called an
`
`L2TL
`
`" " can just keep with the alphabet soup,
`
`an L2TL
`
`V?N that was also available before the time you filed
`
`your pa-en-s, right?
`
`A.
`
`I'm not sure "'m ‘amiliar with L2TL.
`
`familiar, but
`
`I can't answer yes or no on that.
`
`Q. Well, you mentioned that you did some research
`
`fore the time that your patent was filed, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, we did.
`
`You're not claiming your research in this
`
`‘field was comprehensive, was it?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`?robably not, no, sir.
`
`So you're not saying there that LZT? didn't
`
`exist; you're just saying you don't know either way;
`
`is
`
`that right?
`
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`
`Q.
`
`Now, when you were talking about
`
`the _a tunnel
`
`V?N earlier and you had all the boards Jp over there,
`
`that was not saying how to configure a 9919 VBN, was it?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`No, sir.
`
`None or
`
`those steps, none o:
`
`those pages o:
`
`bullet points and numbered paragraphs, none or that had
`
`to do with how you configure a 9919 VBN,
`
`righ .
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir; ‘hat
`
`is true.
`
`And none o:
`
`those steps that you described in
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. — Exhibit 1028, p. 1112
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1028, p. 1112
`
`

`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 99 of 131
`
`99
`
`that
`
`
`
`' boards that we wentlong list o:
`
`through, describe
`
`the steps
`
`for how to implement an L219 VBN, correct?
`
`A.
`
`We"1,
`
`don't know how to con:
`
`figure it,
`
`so
`
`don't know if any of
`
`those are relevant or not.
`
`Q.
`
`But
`
`what
`
`the document described and what you
`
`said was that those were the steps for an
`
`9 SfiC
`
`tunnel—mode V?N, not for any other V?N, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir,
`
`that's true.
`
`Now,
`
`I'd like to pull up,
`
`if we might, another
`
`graphic that you used as part of your explanation o:
`
`this process.
`
`And I
`
`think,
`
`i-
`
`was
`
`listening and paying
`
`attention to what you were saying
`
`was certainly
`
`doing my best, and I hope
`
`didn't get it wrong —— so
`
`tell me,
`
`believe this is a graphic of what you were
`
`describing as a basic V?N.
`
`Did I get that right?
`
`Yes.
`
`This was an example, sir.
`
`understand.
`
`And
`
`I'm just trying to make sure that
`
`fusing this image with an https image.
`
`So this is a V?N,
`
`right?
`
`Yes.
`
`Okay.
`
`Thank you very much.
`
`And what you've depicted here is a very
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. — Exhibit 1028, p. 1113
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1028, p. 1113
`
`

`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 100 of 131
`
`100
`
`typical situation wh r
`
`,
`
`v n
`
`b for
`
`2000,
`
`a user would
`
`want
`
`to use a V?N, correct?
`
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`
`Q.
`
`And what you're depicting here is,
`
`once again,
`
`the remote user up in the upper le:
`
`ft—hand corner, okay?
`
`Is that right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And, again,
`
`this could be someone who's
`
`seeking what's called remote access, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`All right.
`
`So this person has a computer at
`
`the airport, at
`
`a hotel, maybe at home, one of those
`
`types o;' places where you're seeking remote access.
`
`And what you're trying to get
`
`to by the remote access is
`
`you're trying to get —— ‘or in
`
`‘ormation, you're trying
`
`to access in:
`
`formation back at your company, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`So you want
`
`to get
`
`those resources that are at
`
`YOU]? company,
`
`but you're remo-e
`
`jrom your company,
`
`right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes.
`
`Or send information.
`
`And so
`
`think what you're depicting here is
`
`that here's this remote user.
`
`He or she is away from
`
`the Acme Company and wants to set up a V
`
`?N back into the
`
`Acme Company, correct?
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. — Exhibit 1028, p. 1114
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1028, p. 1114
`
`

`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 101 of 131
`
`1 0 1
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`Now, with the scenario that's painted here
`
`with th
`
`r mot
`
`us r
`
`s
`
`king remote access,
`
`that
`
`scenario,
`
`the common scenario for using a V?W, has
`
`absolutely nothing to do with the V?N configaration that
`
`you talked about with all those big poster boards when
`
`you were describing an
`
`9 SfiC tunnel V?N, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Can you repeat
`
`the question, please?
`
`will.
`
`Sure.
`
`Thank you.
`
`This scenario o: creating a V?N by a remote
`
`access user has nothing to do with the V?N that you were
`
`describing when you were using those —— the white poster
`
`boards and the red ink and you were going through the
`
`steps to create that
`
`9 SfiC tunnel V?N, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`I don't know i: that's true or not, sir.
`
`All right. Well, you certainly read —
`
`we can put it up —— Exhibi'
`
`?X983.
`
`Now, sir,
`
`I don't have those boards. Maybe
`
`they're over there, but what
`
`I'm showing you on that
`
`screen is an image o.
`
`-he document that you walked
`
`everybody in the courtroom through,
`
`to show all the
`
`di"'erent steps that are involved in creating an
`
`tunnel V?N, right?
`
`A.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. — Exhibit 1028, p. 1115
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1028, p. 1115
`
`

`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 102 of 131
`
`1 0 2
`
`With Windows 2000, right?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`All right.
`
`Now,
`
`this document
`
`is a Microsof
`
`document, as you said, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`document?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`When was the first time you read this
`
`A.
`
`I've never seen this document.
`
`An earlier
`
`version o: this document, back in the 2000 timeframe.
`
`Q.
`
`So not this version o.
`
`'- but an earlier
`
`version ‘rom 2000?
`
`A.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`I believe this is a revised
`
`version.
`
`Q.
`
`And that version back then and this version
`
`now we're describing, again,
`
`this
`
`9 sac :unnel—mode,
`
`right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`Now, what I'd like you to do —— I'd like to
`
`direct your attention to -he text
`
`that
`
`is underneath ——
`
`it's about
`
`the middle o.
`
`-he page, and there's a
`
`paragraph that begins: Windows 2000
`
`9 SfiC tunneling.
`
`MR. %O%ROW: Let's see how big we can
`
`make that.
`
`Can you make that any bigger, Chris?
`
`Thank you.
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. — Exhibit 1028, p. 1116
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1028, p. 1116
`
`

`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 103 of 131
`
`lO3
`
`Q.
`
`(Qy Mr.
`
`Qobrow)
`
`S
`
`o
`
`the first page o: this
`
`document
`
`is not a page that
`
`you marked up for the
`
`ladies o:
`
`the jury,
`
`'?
`COIIGCC .
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`All
`
`right.
`
`But you did read this page to
`
`yoursel:
`
`':her back in 2000 or recently,
`
`right?
`
`A.
`
`Q .
`
`I'm sure
`
`did,
`
`Y
`
`es, sir.
`
`What this paragraph says at
`
`the start is that
`
`Windows 2000,
`
`the
`
`_)
`
`S
`
`fiC tunneling is not supported
`
`:0]?
`
`client remote access V?N use.
`
`You see what
`
`__'m re‘erring to there, right?
`
`A.
`
`Yes. Yes, sir, b ecause the NRFCs don't
`
`provide the access solution.
`
`Q.
`
`Right.
`
`So what this is saying to people who are
`
`reading the Microso L
`
`in
`
`-0?
`
`mation
`
`is that the
`
`_)
`
`S
`
`fiC
`
`tunneling mode with Windows 2000 is not
`
`for use in the
`
`remote access V?N scenario,
`
`correct?
`
`A.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`Those two aren't.
`
`What it's saying instead is,
`
`don't use that
`
`don't use that
`
`_)
`
`S fiC tunnel—mode V?N.
`
`What this document says,
`
`does it no
`
`V?N, correct?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`What it says to do is,
`
`instead o: using the
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. — Exhibit 1028, p. 1117
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1028, p. 1117
`
`

`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 104 of 131
`
`1 0 4
`
`SEC tunnel—mode V?N that you showed on these boards,
`
`is
`
`that
`
`instead to use an 4219 VBN, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And what it adds is that there were several
`
`companies,
`
`including Microso_- and Cisco, who
`
`specifically developed the L291 VBN for the purpose o:
`
`providing client remote—access V?W connections, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`So what this document
`
`is saying is,
`
`forget
`
`the
`
`fiC VBN. Use the 4291 VBN when you want
`
`to have
`
`remote access o.
`
`-he -ype that you were describing in
`
`your graphics.
`
`When you want
`
`to do that, use the L2-
`
`correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And one of the things that it further adds is
`
`that
`
`in Windows 2000,
`
`it says that client remote—access
`
`V?N connections are protected using an aitomatically
`
`generated
`
`9 sec policy, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`So the user isn't creating that policy.
`
`That
`
`policy is automatically created, right?
`
`A.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`Now,
`
`I noticed that as you were going through
`
`the steps describing the
`
`9 SfiC tunnel VBN,
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. — Exhibit 1028, p. 1118
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1028, p. 1118
`
`

`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 105 of 131
`
`lO5
`
`wanted to through with you some o:
`
`the other V?Ns that
`
`were around at that time just so -ha- we're all clear
`
`about what you were trying to demonstrate to us.
`
`And —— and there was one technology that's
`
`been discussed —— you were here for at
`
`least part o; it,
`
`because it was
`
`in the opening —— was a technology that
`
`was called Aventail.
`
`Does that name ring a bell?
`
`Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
`
`Now,
`
`that
`
`lengthy protocol o: steps that you
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`went
`
`through with all these pages
`
`‘or
`
`9 SfiC tunnel
`
`mode,
`
`that was not describing how Aventail works, was
`
`No —— not
`
`to my knowledge, sir. No.
`
`To your knowledge, Aventail did not use an
`
`right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`I don't know one way or
`
`the other, sir.
`
`And so as far as you know, Aventail didn't
`
`that technology, correo
`
`A.
`
`That's correo
`
`Q.
`
`Now, I'd like you in your book, or you can
`
`simply look on the screen —— I want
`
`to direct your
`
`attention to Defendant's Exhibit 3121.
`
`Now,
`
`I know you said you did some research
`
`back in the day when you were looking to secure
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. — Exhibit 1028, p. 1119
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1028, p. 1119
`
`

`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 106 of 131
`
`106
`
`information, and you were looking at di
`
`technologies, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And you certainly had done enough research to
`
`have seen a prior version of this Windows 2000 exhibit
`
`that we
`
`just
`
`looked at a moment ago, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`All righ .
`
`So one o:
`
`the things I wanted to
`
`find out, Jr. Short, was,
`
`I put
`
`in front o_ you this
`
`exhibit, which is called Microsoft Windows NT Server
`
`Operating System,
`
`a white paper, and then underneath it
`
`says Microso - Virtual ?rivate Networking Using
`
`?oint—to—?oint Tunneling ?rotocol for Low—Cost, Secure,
`
`Qemote Access Across the Internet.
`
`Do you see that?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`All right.
`
`And if you would turn the page ——
`
`MR. %O%ROW:
`
`This is going to be hard
`
`‘Or,
`
`"
`
`think, everybody to read,
`
`so could you blow that
`
`up, Chris?
`
`How do you like that for a copyright page?
`
`Why don't we
`
`take a look,
`
`though, and
`
`blow that up if we can.
`
`Q.
`
`(Qy Mr. Qobrow) And you'll see in the very
`
`upper left,
`
`that this document bears a copyright date o:
`
`l996.
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. — Exhibit 1028, p. 1120
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1028, p. 1120
`
`

`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 107 of 131
`
`1 0 7
`
`Do you see that?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And if you go to the next page,
`
`there was
`
`some
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`formation available to folks to look at about
`
`-31-
`
`?NS.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Do you see what
`
`"
`
`ferring to?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And in the upper left corner,
`
`it talks about
`
`virtual private networking, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And it mentions the point—to—point
`
`tunneling
`
`protocol or
`
`.919, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And you understand that back in this time in
`
`l996,
`
`that was
`
`a technology that Microsoft was working
`
`on, _9l9 VBN.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And what this manual
`
`is telling people is that
`
`those .919 V9Ns were for remote users,
`
`i: you look in
`
`the third line, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`This technology was about allowing remote
`
`users to connect securely using a V?N, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And it describes those V?N connections using
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. — Exhibit 1028, p. 1121
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1028, p. 1121
`
`

`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 108 of 131
`
`108
`
`9 as being easy—to—implemen: solutions for creating
`
`are and encrypted communications across the internet.
`
`Do you see that?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`All right.
`
`Now,
`
`i-
`
`" direct your attention to
`
`?age —— and there are lots and lots of page numbers on
`
`these documents,
`
`so forgive me.
`
`need to direct your attention to a page
`
`that's called 3l2l.OO7.
`
`It's in the —— the page numbers
`
`are in the lower right corner.
`
`And it will be up on the
`
`screen, but feel
`
`free to look at it in your book,
`
`i; you
`
`wish.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`This is easier, actually.
`
`All right.
`
`And I wanted to first have you
`
`look at
`
`the top of
`
`the page where there's a figure, and
`
`that figure is describing some V?N connection scenarios
`
`using 9919, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`All right.
`
`And the scenario that
`
`is being
`
`painted here is one where you have remote users on the
`
`one hand trying to connect
`
`to corporate resources on the
`
`other hand, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And wha
`
`-his is saying is that back in l996,
`
`you could use -91-
`
`to connect remotely to corporate
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. — Exhibit 1028, p. 1122
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1028, p. 1122
`
`

`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 109 of 131
`
`lO9
`
`resources using a V?N, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`It describes doing that
`
`lower down on the
`
`MR. %O%ROW:
`
`"‘ we could show that.
`
`Q.
`
`(Qy Mr. Qobrow) This publication,
`
`ixhibit 3121,
`
`‘rom 1996 describes doing that as being
`
`easy, easy implementation, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`Now,
`
`i: we go to ?age ll,
`
`there's a —— the
`
`second paragraph from the top is called Making
`
`to Use.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Do you see that?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And that, once again,
`
`is describing that it is
`
`for clients and servers and for clients —— I'm
`
`sorry.
`
`It says that ease o: use has been built into
`
`V?N from its inception for both the server and client
`
`personal computer.
`
`Do you see that?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And right underneath that ——
`
`MR. %O%ROW:
`
`"‘ we can go down the page.
`
`Qobrow)
`
`—— it says that setting up the
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. — Exhibit 1028, p. 1123
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1028, p. 1123
`
`

`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 110 of 131
`
`1 1 0
`
`?N on Windows NT Server 4.0 is easy, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`So certainly,
`
`ixhibit 3121
`
`is describing and
`
`telling people that using .919 VBN,
`
`it was easy to make
`
`a remote access connection securely to corporate
`
`resources.
`
`That's what this is saying,
`
`isn't it?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And ‘inally,
`
`i-
`
`?age 3121.013,
`
`MR.
`
`"5 we can highlight
`
`the
`
`bottom paragraph.
`
`Q.
`
`(Qy Mr. Qobrow)
`
`—— this is, once again,
`
`talking about 9919, correct?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And creating V?N connections, correct?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And at
`
`the bottom o: this paragraph,
`
`it says
`
`that to "JYth€Y simplity use, both the use connection
`
`and the V?W connection can be set up and activated from
`
`one easy AJtoDial phone book entry.
`
`Do you see what "'m re‘erring to there?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And you were here when there was
`
`some mention
`
`Dial
`
`in the courtroom, correct?
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. — Exhibit 1028, p. 1124
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1028, p. 1124
`
`

`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 111 of 131
`
`1 1 1
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes,
`
`I was.
`
`All right.
`
`And what this is describing is how
`
`you can use AutoDial
`
`to easily create a V?N connection
`
`in that remote access V?N scenario, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And I
`
`take it that you understand that this
`
`kind o:
`
`a V?N, when you're talking about remote access
`
`and the like,
`
`-haL -his kind o:
`
`a system is using the
`
`DNS injrasLruc-ure that was already in existence,
`
`correct?
`
`A.
`
`That
`
`.919 was using the —— I don't know one
`
`way or
`
`the other, sir.
`
`Q. Well,
`
`let's take a look at ?age 20, and you'll
`
`see, at
`
`the bottom o.
`
`-haL page,
`
`there's a paragraph
`
`labeled summary.
`
`Do you see that?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And towards the bottom of that paragraph,
`
`in
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`talking about
`
`.319 V9Ns,
`
`it says that the security,
`
`reliability, ease o: use, and speed o; 9919—enabled
`
`Windows NT servers, combined with the DWS
`
`infrastructure
`
`provides significantly enhanced business—to—business
`
`communications across the internet.
`
`Do you see that?
`
`Yes, sir,
`
`I see that.
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. — Exhibit 1028, p. 1125
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1028, p. 1125
`
`

`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 112 of 131
`
`Q.
`
`So what
`
`'
`
`— so what this is saying is tha
`
`when you're using __
`
`_ and you have remote access,
`
`that
`
`that's taking advantage of
`
`the DNS infrastructure to
`
`create secure communications across the internet, right?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`Okay.
`
`And that was
`
`in l996, correct?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`That was three or maybe four years be:
`
`filed your patent application, right?
`
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`
`Q.
`
`Certainly,
`
`three years before you had the idea
`
`that
`
`led to your patent applications, correct?
`
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`
`Q.
`
`All right.
`
`Now,
`
`I wanted to shift subjects a
`
`bit, and I now wanted to ask you some questions abou'
`
`the demonstration that you were kind enough to show
`
`JS using the two computers that are over there, one
`
`that's in fron
`
`_ Mr. Munger and one that
`
`is on —— that
`
`was on tha- li
`
`easel or what—have—you over by the
`
`jurors.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`You know
`
`I'm talking about, right?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And I
`
`think what you told us was that both o:
`
`these computers in the courtroom were running what
`
`you're calling the Gabriel connection software;
`
`is that
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. — Exhibit 1028, p. 1126
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1028, p. 1126
`
`

`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 113 of 131
`
`1 1 3
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And this is the software that you've been
`
`working on for several years, right?
`
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`
`Q.
`
`This technology,
`
`this software includes the
`
`patented technology that
`
`is the subject of your patents,
`
`right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`Now, when you ran this demonstration in the
`
`courtroom,
`
`I trust that this was not
`
`the first time that
`
`you used the computer that
`
`is over by Mr. Cawley right
`
`now, was it?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`No, sir.
`
`And this wasn't
`
`the first time that Mr. Munger
`
`used the computer that's in front o_ him, was it?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`No, sir.
`
`I assume the two of you have communicated
`
`using these computers at various times over the last
`
`several years, right?
`
`A.
`
`No, sir.
`
`Those were just set up speci:
`
`for this demonstration.
`
`Q.
`
`Ah, okay.
`
`So —— so how old are those
`
`computers?
`
`How long have you had them?
`
`A.
`
`The one over on the easel, maybe for a month,
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. — Exhibit 1028, p. 1127
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1028, p. 1127
`
`

`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 114 of 131
`
`1 1 4
`
`and then this one,
`
`a couple of days now.
`
`Q.
`
`Now,
`
`I trust that when you first got
`
`those
`
`computers and you plugged them into the wall and you
`
`pushed the power button,
`
`I assume those computers were
`
`not ready at that time to do V?N communication, correct?
`
`A.
`
`That's correc .
`
`Q.
`
`You had to configure the computers in various
`
`to do a V?N communication even using your
`
`:ion, right?
`
`A.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`We had to download our software and
`
`install it.
`
`Q.
`
`There are things that you need to install on
`
`the computer, aren't there?
`
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`
`Q.
`
`And there are things that you need to activate
`
`on the computer, aren't there?
`
`A.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And that takes time, doesn't it?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`So the first time that you use something like
`
`this, and you create on your computer the various
`
`resources, as it were,
`
`that you needed to do a V?N,
`
`that
`
`takes time, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`You can't
`
`just click your fingers, click the
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. — Exhibit 1028, p. 1128
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1028, p. 1128
`
`

`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 115 of 131
`
`1 1 5
`
`mouse once when you first power up the computers, and
`
`have your
`
`invention work; you need to do some work
`
`behind the scenes, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`All right.
`
`I'd like you,
`
`if you would,
`
`please,
`
`to take a look at Exhibit 3578.
`
`It's in your
`
`binder.
`
`So I will apologize in advance jor the _ont
`
`size.
`
`This is as big as we got it from VirnetX.
`
`And
`
`hope you'll recognize this i: we maybe blow up the top
`
`title,
`
`that what this document
`
`is called is the Gabriel
`
`Connection Technology Beta Version 3 User's Guide by Vic
`
`Larson iron May o: 2009.
`
`Do I have that right?
`
`Yes, sir. That's what it says.
`
`Now,
`
`just to get our bearings here,
`
`i:
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Vic Larson is actually Dr. Vic Larson, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`He's one o:
`
`the coinventors on the patents
`
`that are involved in this suit, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And you're familiar with this docur
`
`2009,
`
`a little less than a year ago,
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. — Exhibit 1028, p. 1129
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1028, p. 1129
`
`

`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed

This document is available on Docket Alarm but you must sign up to view it.


Or .

Accessing this document will incur an additional charge of $.

After purchase, you can access this document again without charge.

Accept $ Charge
throbber

Still Working On It

This document is taking longer than usual to download. This can happen if we need to contact the court directly to obtain the document and their servers are running slowly.

Give it another minute or two to complete, and then try the refresh button.

throbber

A few More Minutes ... Still Working

It can take up to 5 minutes for us to download a document if the court servers are running slowly.

Thank you for your continued patience.

This document could not be displayed.

We could not find this document within its docket. Please go back to the docket page and check the link. If that does not work, go back to the docket and refresh it to pull the newest information.

Your account does not support viewing this document.

You need a Paid Account to view this document. Click here to change your account type.

Your account does not support viewing this document.

Set your membership status to view this document.

With a Docket Alarm membership, you'll get a whole lot more, including:

  • Up-to-date information for this case.
  • Email alerts whenever there is an update.
  • Full text search for other cases.
  • Get email alerts whenever a new case matches your search.

Become a Member

One Moment Please

The filing “” is large (MB) and is being downloaded.

Please refresh this page in a few minutes to see if the filing has been downloaded. The filing will also be emailed to you when the download completes.

Your document is on its way!

If you do not receive the document in five minutes, contact support at support@docketalarm.com.

Sealed Document

We are unable to display this document, it may be under a court ordered seal.

If you have proper credentials to access the file, you may proceed directly to the court's system using your government issued username and password.


Access Government Site

We are redirecting you
to a mobile optimized page.





Document Unreadable or Corrupt

Refresh this Document
Go to the Docket

We are unable to display this document.

Refresh this Document
Go to the Docket