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` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`-----------------------------
`SkyHawke Technologies, LLC,
`
` Petitioner
`
`v. Case IPR 2014-00437
` Case IPR 2014-00438
`L&H Concepts, LLC,
` Patent 5,779,566
` Patent Owner
`------------------------------
`
` DEPOSITION OF CARL A. GUTWIN, PH.D.
` Austin, Texas
` November 14, 2014
`
`Reported by: Susan S. Klinger, RMR-CRR, CSR
`Job No. 86786
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`L&H CONCEPTS 2015
`SKYHAWKE TECHNOLOGIES V. L&H CONCEPTS
`IPR2014-00438
`
`
`
` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`-----------------------------
`SkyHawke Technologies, LLC,
`
` Petitioner
`
`v. Case IPR 2014-00437
` Case IPR 2014-00438
`L&H Concepts, LLC,
` Patent 5,779,566
` Patent Owner
`------------------------------
`
` DEPOSITION OF CARL A. GUTWIN, PH.D.
` Austin, Texas
` November 14, 2014
`
`Reported by: Susan S. Klinger, RMR-CRR, CSR
`Job No. 86786
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`L&H CONCEPTS 2015
`SKYHAWKE TECHNOLOGIES V. L&H CONCEPTS
`IPR2014-00438
`
`
`
` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
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`Page 2
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` November 14, 2014
` 9:06 a.m.
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` Deposition of Carl A. Gutwin, Ph.D. held
`at the offices of Fish & Richardson, 111
`Congress Avenue, Austin, Texas, before Susan S.
`Klinger, a Registered Merit Reporter and
`Certified Realtime Reporter of the States of
`Texas and California.
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` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
`A P P E A R A N C E S:
`
`Attorneys for Petitioner:
` Mr. Thomas Fisher
` OBLON SPIVAK McCLELLAND MAIER & NEUSTADT
` 1940 Duke Street
` Alexandria, Virginia 22314
`
`Attorneys for Patent Owner:
` Mr. David Morris
` FISH & RICHARDSON
` 111 Congress Avenue
` Austin, Texas 78701
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` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
` CARL GUTWIN, Ph.D.,
`having been first duly sworn testified as
`follows:
` MR. MORRIS: I would like to put an
` agreement on the record that Mr. Fisher and
` I have discussed that this deposition is
` going to apply both for IPR 2014-00437 and
` 2014-00438. We're combining those, so --
` presumably we're combining length, although
` I don't expect to use all of the length.
` MR. FISHER: Well, you noticed one
` depo today, both of them at the same time,
` so we're expecting we're going to complete
` this in one day.
` MR. MORRIS: I expect to complete it
` in one day.
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. MORRIS:
` Q. Please state your full name.
` A. Carl Andrew Gutwin.
` Q. Thanks for coming in today. My name
`is David Morris. I represent L&H Concepts,
`LLC. Do you understand that?
` A. Yes.
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` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
` Q. And who are you here on behalf of?
` A. The client is SkyHawke. The firm is
`Oblon Spivak.
` Q. Is it SkyHawke Technologies, LLC?
` A. I believe so.
` Q. And do you understand what IPR
`stands for?
` A. I do. I'm not sure I could
`pronounce the Latin properly, but I believe I
`understand what it means.
` Q. Do you understand it's an inter
`partes review process before the Patent Trial
`and Appeal -- the Patent Trial and Appeal
`Board?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Have you ever been involved in any
`capacity in any other IPRs?
` A. No. I've been involved in a
`district court ruling that I believe had an IPR
`attached to it, but I wasn't involved in
`that -- in that part of -- in that part of the
`case.
` Q. In the IPR case?
` A. That's correct.
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` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
` Q. What -- what was your involvement in
`that case, to the extent you can tell me
`without revealing any confidentiality?
` A. I did analysis of source code for an
`ITC hearing and a district court hearing.
` Q. Were you given any discussion of
`obviousness or analysis of obviousness?
` A. No.
` Q. And you understand that today you're
`being deposed in connection with both IPR
`2014-0437 and 2014-0438?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. And if I refer to them in short form
`as 437 and 438, you'll understand what I'm
`talking about?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And do you understand that these IPR
`proceedings were initiated by SkyHawke
`Technologies?
` A. Yes, I do.
` Q. And do you understand that they
`challenge certain claims of the U.S. Patent
`5,779,566 to Wilens?
` A. Yes, I do.
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` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
` Q. And I'm showing you what has been
`marked -- or what is Exhibit 1001 to this
`proceeding, the Wilens patent.
` MR. FISHER: Thank you.
` Q. Do you understand that when I refer
`to the '566 patent or Wilens, that I'm
`referring to this patent?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And have you reviewed this patent
`before?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Have you ever had your deposition
`taken before?
` A. Yes, I have.
` Q. How many times?
` A. Twice.
` Q. When was the last time?
` A. July of this year.
` Q. Was that in connection with the ITC
`case you told me about?
` A. The district case. ITC was previous
`to that.
` Q. Did you also have your deposition
`taken in the ITC case?
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` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
` A. I did.
` Q. So your two depositions were for the
`same case, essentially different -- in
`different forums?
` A. I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know if
`they're the same case or not, but it was the
`same parties.
` Q. What party were you working for?
` A. For Immersion Corporation.
` Q. And what was the -- what kind of
`software was that?
` A. It's smartphone software.
` Q. Any specific format? Was it Android
`or --
` A. Android.
` Q. Now, you understand the statements
`you make today are under oath, just as if you
`made them in a courtroom; correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Okay. And we don't have a video
`camera here today, so if you would try to
`answer with -- with words instead of nods or
`"uh-huhs" or "huh-uhs" --
` A. Okay.
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` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
` Q. -- we would very much appreciate it.
` Also, if you would do your best to
`let me finish my questions before you start
`answering, and I'll do my best to let you
`finish your answer before I ask another
`question, we have -- do we have agreement on
`that point?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And so it's not a torture session.
`If you need to take a break at some point, as
`long as there's not a question pending, we can
`take a break. Depending on how long we go
`today, we may either order some sandwiches or
`break for lunch, whatever you guys want to do.
`We can talk at the next break about that.
`The -- and typically lunch, we'll take a
`30-minute to one hour break, but I do expect
`we'll be able to wrap up today.
` A. Okay.
` Q. And do you understand that the rules
`for proceedings before the Patent Trial and
`Appeal Board require that as long as I'm
`conducting cross-examination, you're not
`allowed to confer with Mr. Fisher during
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` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
`breaks?
` A. Yes, I understand that.
` Q. And if I ask you a question and you
`don't understand it, it doesn't make sense to
`you, do I have your agreement that you'll let
`me know?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And is there anything today that you
`know of that might require you to cut your
`deposition short?
` A. No.
` Q. And is there any reason today,
`illness, medication, something personal going
`on that would prevent you from being able to
`give complete, accurate and truthful testimony?
` A. No.
` Q. You stated that you had twice
`testified in depositions. In both situations
`you were acting as an expert witness?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Have you testified in any other
`capacity?
` A. No.
` Q. Have you ever prepared an expert
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` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
`report in any other capacity, apart from this
`proceeding -- these proceedings?
` A. No. Well --
` MR. FISHER: Objection, form.
` A. -- these proceedings that we're
`talking about today --
` Q. Speaking of the 437 and the 438.
` A. I have prepared expert reports for
`the other matter, the ITC and district hearing
`where I'm working for Immersion.
` Q. And have you prepared reports for
`any other cases?
` A. No.
` Q. What did you do to prepare for your
`deposition today?
` A. I read over my declaration and the
`relevant source material.
` Q. When you say "the relevant source
`material," do you mean the exhibits that are
`referenced in your declarations?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And do you mean anything else?
` A. No, I don't think so.
` Q. You didn't do any independent
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` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
`computer research or call anyone or anything
`like that?
` A. Call anyone?
` Q. Yes.
` A. What's "call anyone"?
` Q. Call anyone.
` A. Call anyone, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
` Q. That's my Texas accent.
` A. Of course, I've done lots of that in
`the preparation of the report, but for
`preparation today, I worked with the
`declaration and -- and the references.
` Q. And in preparing for today, did you
`have any conversations with counsel? And I ask
`that you not reveal anything privileged to me.
` A. We discussed a variety of matters
`related to the -- to the declaration, yes.
` Q. And did you rely on any of those
`conversations in forming the opinions that you
`are providing today?
` A. The opinions today come from the
`declaration and the source material.
` Q. And did you rely on any of your
`conversations with counsel in reaching the
`
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` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
`opinions provided in your declarations?
` A. So the declarations were -- some
`portions of the declarations were carried out
`as a collaborative effort with some of the
`attorneys. That's not -- I'm not talking about
`the conversations over the last day or two.
`Are you asking about the preparation of the
`document itself?
` Q. Yeah. Let's talk about the
`declarations, and when I say "declarations,"
`you understand that I'm talking about the one
`for the 437 and the one for the 438; correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. And I'll be showing those to you at
`some point today, but I think we understand the
`ones I'm talking about.
` A. Okay.
` Q. So in reaching the opinions in
`the -- in both of those declarations, were any
`of those -- you said that those declarations
`were collaborative efforts between you and
`counsel?
` MR. FISHER: Objection, form.
` A. The way in which the documents were
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` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
`prepared was that I did a variety of background
`research, and then in some of the -- in some of
`the cases the attorneys provided material to me
`that I was able to review and incorporate into
`my report.
` Q. Which materials were provided to you
`by attorneys?
` A. The materials that were related to
`the petition.
` Q. Could you be more specific? What
`sort of materials are you referencing?
` A. Well, some of the materials from
`the -- the ways in which the -- the Palmer and
`Osamu and Vanden Heuvel relate to the '566 that
`come relatively -- you know, that were close to
`what was in the petition were done in
`discussions with -- with the attorneys.
` Q. When you say "materials," I'm still
`having trouble -- what are you talking about?
`Did somebody give you notes that explained
`things or explained how those references
`related to the petitions?
` A. There were a variety of things. We
`had verbal discussions about how these things
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` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
`worked, and there would have been -- it would
`have been some drafts of documents. I would
`have read the petitions as well and used all of
`those in preparing the report.
` Q. Have you ever met with any employees
`of SkyHawke?
` A. No.
` Q. Ever talked with any employees or
`emailed with any employees of SkyHawke?
` A. No.
` Q. Do you play golf?
` A. I do.
` Q. Golf outdoors on a golf course?
` A. Yes.
` Q. How long have you been playing golf?
` A. Since 1984.
` Q. About how often do you play?
` A. Just a couple of times a year now.
` Q. What would -- how would you define a
`game of golf?
` MR. FISHER: Objection, form.
` A. Well, it's a complex question, of
`course, because a game is a very broad concept,
`and so I'm not even sure how we define a game
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` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
`in all of its many forms. There are practice
`games and there are tournament games and there
`are -- you know, there are sports and there are
`board games, so I think that a game of golf
`could be considered to be a wide variety of
`things that involve some aspects of the -- some
`of the mechanics of the game of golf. Now I'm
`talking now about the game of golf sort of as a
`sport, and so we could define it that way and
`we could also define it as a particular
`instance of -- of playing golf, but, of course,
`there are many forms of the game of golf and
`you could play it in many different ways.
` Q. When you say, I'm going to go play a
`game of golf, what do you mean?
` A. In different situations that could
`mean very different things. I could be
`implying that I'm going to a golf course to --
`to walk around nine or 18 holes. I could mean
`that I'm going to mini golf or it could mean
`that I'm going to play a board game called
`golf, for all I know, so it's -- it's really
`open-ended.
` Q. How does a round compare to a game?
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` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
` MR. FISHER: Objection, form.
` Q. If I say I'm going to play a round
`of golf, what does that mean to you?
` A. Well, again, that -- that would be
`contextually dependent. And there is one
`meaning of "round" that would imply a certain
`number of holes at a golf course in -- under
`one context, but there may be many other ways
`that a round is defined in other kinds and
`other forms of golf.
` Q. Is a round a game?
` A. Again, the definition of a game is
`a -- is a very broad one. And so I think it's
`possible that a round could be considered a
`game, but in other situations, perhaps a round
`isn't a game. Maybe there is a game that
`requires multiple rounds, and maybe there are
`games that require not even a whole round. I
`think that there are many ways in which you
`could construct a game of golf or construct the
`rules of that game based on an agreement
`between the players or between some -- some
`overseeing organization that would change what
`those things mean.
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` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
` Q. When you have used "game of golf" in
`your declarations that we're talking about
`today, what did you mean?
` MR. FISHER: Objection, form.
` A. Well, I use it probably in a number
`of occasions, and it's probably context
`dependent. As I say, the word "game" can mean
`multiple things, and sometimes it depends on
`the context. If you would like to -- me to
`discuss a very particular instance of that, I
`would be happy to do so.
` Q. One term you used frequently is
`"pre-game." What does -- what does "pre-game"
`mean?
` MR. FISHER: Objection, form.
` A. So once again, just as game is a
`difficult concept to pin down, then pre-game
`would be similarly difficult, but there would
`be some notion of before that game, if we're
`talking about a temporal ordering, but again,
`that could be -- that could be many different
`things, depending on how the game itself is
`constituted.
` Q. What about with respect to the '566
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` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
`patent, the use of the term "pre-game" in
`there, how are you defining that?
` MR. FISHER: Objection, form.
` A. Well, in the '566, it's also used in
`a number of places and potentially in a number
`of ways as well. I think that it would have
`the same difficulty in being specific in all
`instances in just the way that the -- the
`general term "game" is difficult.
` Q. So you're saying you can't give me a
`specific meaning for pre-game as used in the
`'566 patent?
` MR. FISHER: Objection, form.
` A. No, that's not what I said. I said
`that the word "game" is difficult to pin down
`absolutely, and so the word "pre-game" would
`then necessarily be similarly slippery. And so
`it's possible that these could be pinned down
`from context if you would like to look at a
`specific instance.
` Q. Well, let's look on the abstract.
`The pre-game screens contain data input fields
`having predetermined sets of values. What --
` A. Can I just read the abstract, just
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` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
`to -- I see --
` Q. Sure, certainly.
` A. -- "pre-game" here in a couple of
`places, so I would like to see where you are
`reading.
` Q. Just on the first -- on the first
`page here on the --
` A. Yeah, yeah. I just want to read the
`abstract. (Reviewing document.) Okay. Could
`you repeat your question?
` Q. Yeah, sure. So you see in the
`abstract on the first page of the document
`here --
` A. Yes.
` Q. -- page 1 of Exhibit 1001, the
`pre-game screens contain data input fields
`having predetermined sets of values. Do you
`see that sentence about midway through the
`paragraph?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What does "pre-game" mean there?
`How are you interpreting that, or how are you
`constructing that?
` MR. FISHER: Objection, form.
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` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
` A. Well, so as I said, the word "game"
`is -- could mean many different things. And in
`general, prefixes like pre and post would imply
`a temporal relationship to another entity. And
`so if a game is a thing that happens in time,
`then a pre-game event is something that would
`happen before that game.
` But as I said, that doesn't really
`nail down much about what exactly this pre-game
`phase is, because a game could be so broad.
` Q. So you're -- are you telling me then
`that you can't commit to what it means in this
`use -- in this line in the abstract?
` MR. FISHER: Objection, form.
` A. No, I think that I did say that I
`was -- I was explaining to you that there --
`there is a temporal ordering by that prefix
`that suggests that something that happens in a
`pre-game phase is something that occurs before
`a different phase that we're calling a game.
` Q. So you can give the temporal
`element, but you can't give me the meaning of
`"game" in that hyphenated term "pre-game" in
`that sentence?
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` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
` A. I didn't say that I couldn't define
`what a game was. A game is -- is a concept
`that -- you know, that we're all familiar with.
`It's just that specifying exactly what that
`game is or what the details of that game are
`might depend on the context.
` Q. And I'm asking you about this
`context right here in this document.
` A. Okay. But --
` MR. FISHER: Objection, form.
` A. But this -- this patent doesn't
`really describe anything about what the game is
`in the claims of this patent. There is very
`little to -- to nail down a definition of what
`a game is and, in fact, the claims themselves
`don't really even talk about golf. And so
`it's -- I don't think it's -- it's -- I don't
`think that there is a clear definition of what
`a game is with respect to our discussions of
`the '566.
` Q. Let's look at the claims of the
`patent.
` A. Okay.
` Q. So if you could turn to the claims
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` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
`that begin on page 45.
` A. That's exhibit page 45?
` Q. I'm sorry, Exhibit 1001, page 45 --
`yeah, page 45 referenced in the bottom
`right-hand corner.
` A. Yes.
` Q. And let's look at Claim 4. Actually
`that will be on the following page.
` A. Okay.
` Q. It says, "Apparatus as defined in
`Claim 1, dependent claim." Do you need to --
`do you need to look back at Claim 1 or if you
`need a moment to --
` A. Sure.
` Q. If you'll just let me know when
`you're ready to discuss.
` A. Okay.
` Q. So back to Claim 4, an apparatus as
`governed in Claim 1 wherein the information
`screen stored in the memory comprised one or
`more pre-game parameter recording information
`screens, one or more game interactive recording
`information screens, and one or more post-game
`statistic report information screens.
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` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
` A. Uh-huh.
` Q. What does "pre-game" mean to you as
`used in this claim?
` MR. FISHER: Objection, form.
` Q. Or what meaning did you place on
`"pre-game" for purposes of your opinion?
` A. So as I've stated, the words "pre"
`and I believe they use "post" define the
`temporal relationship to another phase. And so
`if the pre-game phase and so the things that
`are occurring -- I guess some of these screens
`that involve a pre-game parameter recording is
`either related to or occurring before this
`other phase that involves the game itself.
` Q. But you can't tell me what the game
`is?
` MR. FISHER: Objection, form.
` A. Well, if we look at the definition
`in Claim 1, there is only a description of a
`self-contained computer unit and key means for
`doing various retrieval and data entry
`functions. And so there is no -- there is no
`definition in Claim 1 as to what activity is
`taking place here.
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` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
` Q. Claim 1 does reference golf
`information though; correct?
` MR. FISHER: Objection, form.
` A. So in the -- in the portions of the
`claim following the "consisting of," I don't
`see anything that -- that describes any game at
`all.
` MR. MORRIS: Objection,
` nonresponsive.
` Q. Claim 1 does reference golf
`information; correct?
` MR. FISHER: Objection, form.
` A. So I believe that's called the
`preamble to the claim, and it -- it certainly
`says that on the bottom of page 45. It uses
`the word "golf" in that -- in that paragraph.
` Q. But that doesn't inform you of what
`"game" means in Claim 4?
` MR. FISHER: Objection, form.
` A. Well, I was -- I was asked to look
`at these -- these issues in terms of what the
`elements of the claims indicated. And those
`don't indicate anything about the game of golf
`or really about any game in particular.
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` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
` Q. And did you read the patent in its
`entirety or just the claims?
` A. I read the patent in its entirety.
` Q. And did the abstract provide you any
`guidance with respect to what the claims were
`referencing?
` MR. FISHER: Objection, form.
` A. So I understand that the elements of
`the claims are separate from other aspects of
`the patent, and that the claims can be
`instantiated or they can be applied to
`particular domains of interest. And it is
`clear that in the '566, the claims are being
`applied to -- or illustrated in particular ways
`that involve the game of golf, but it appears
`that the -- the claim elements themselves do
`not make any reference to any particular game,
`including golf.
` Q. When you just referenced the game of
`golf, what did you mean when you said "game of
`golf"?
` A. Well, as I said, there are many ways
`that that could be constituted, but I think
`that there's -- we can imagine a general term
`
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` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
`that sort of encompasses a variety of different
`activities that people play with equipment and
`material and rules that are derived from one or
`more of the specific games of golf that -- that
`have been set down or have been instituted in
`history at some point.
` Q. When I asked you -- well, if I take
`away "game," if I say what is golf, is that
`easier for you to give me a specific answer?
` A. Well, in a way it's easy to give a
`specific answer in that golf is a game that's
`played by a lot of people around the world
`and -- you know, and involves many different
`rules that -- you know, that have to do with a
`set of factors -- probably a set of factors in
`common. I don't want to talk about all the
`different possible games of golf that are out
`there.
` The thing that you have to remember
`though is that there are many different kinds
`of golf. It -- it's -- it would not be easy to
`say that golf is this one thing. Even within
`accepted forms of -- of what we might call the
`sport of golf, there are many, many different
`
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` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
`rule variations. And imagine that if you go
`to, you know, another country, you might have a
`very different understanding of -- of what that
`word means.
` Q. Well, I asked you earlier if you
`played golf, and you smiled and said yes. What
`did you understand I was asking you about?
` A. I interpreted that question to mean,
`you know, do I carry out some kind of activity
`that's related to some of these -- some of
`these mechanisms. I noticed that you followed
`that up and you -- you had to specify when --
`that it wasn't clear in your mind what I meant
`when I said yes, I do. And so we have to be
`careful about, you know, what the rules are and
`what -- what type of game that we're playing.
` Q. What did you think I was asking
`about?
` A. Well, I immediately understood -- I
`immediately understood the broad strokes of the
`idea of golf. And we are familiar with many
`different things on TV that we see as golf and
`there are golf courses out in the world. So we
`have an innate understanding of what some of
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` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
`those different aspects of the game are, but in
`terms of a specific definition of playing a
`particular game, you might be talking about
`different rule sets or you might be talking
`about different requirements for the difference
`between mini golf and outdoor golf as you
`suggested yourself. I don't really know what
`indoor golf is, but presume there is some kind
`of game like that, or there are card games
`called golf. And there are many different ways
`in which that could be -- could be figured out.
` Q. But again, I've asked you what you
`understood me to be asking you about, and
`you -- and what did you reply "yes" to when I
`said do you play golf?
` MR. FISHER: Objection, form.
` Q. And you said "yes," you clearly
`believed you knew what I was saying.
` A. Yes. And as I said, I interpret
`that to mean sort of the larger idea of
`carrying out activities that involve some of
`the -- of the game mechanics or the rule sets
`that come from one of the many variants of
`golf. And so when I answered yes, I was
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` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
`answering yes, I have played a variety of
`different games that are related to this sort
`of larger picture of golf.
` Q. Well, you said you played golf --
`that you played golf about twice a year. What
`kind of golf were you talking about when you
`said that?
` A. I was being inclusive. I play on a
`variety of different courses and I play on a
`variety of different rule sets. And I don't
`know, I may have even been remembering a card
`game called golf that we played in there. I've
`certainly played -- you've mentioned the term
`"outdoor golf," and so at -- I have played golf
`at outdoor establishments that are -- that we
`would call golf courses that have, you know,
`mown green and holes and so forth. I've also
`played other forms of golf, you know, par 3
`golf or pitch and putt or mini golf or, you
`know, a practice game where we are going to the
`driving range and we decide that we're going
`to, you know, see who can hit closest to a
`particular marker or something like that.
` Q. So in each of these examples you
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` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
`have given, these are situations where you are
`outside physically holding golf clubs, and
`that's -- that's what you meant when you said
`you played golf twice a year; correct?
` MR. FISHER: Objection, form.
` A. Well, there are -- are many other
`ways to play golf than being outside and
`holding a golf club.
` Q. I'm asking what you meant though
`when you said, yes, I play twice a year?
` MR. FISHER: Objection, form.
` A. Well, as I said, I think that --
`that I was thinking of golf writ large there
`and thinking about all the different ways in
`which golf could be played. My kids play a
`game called pairs golf and that's -- that's a
`card game. So when you said the word, I was
`probably thinking of that as well. And so when
`I talk about playing golf several times a year,
`a few times a year I think is what I said, that
`sort of covers all the kinds of golf that I
`play.
` Q. Including pairs golf with cards with
`your kids?
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` GUTWIN - 11/14/2014
` A. Sure.
` Q. That's what you meant when you were
`responding to my question?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And so turning back to Exhibit
`1001 -- turning back to Exhibit 1001 you'll see
`in the other claims of the patent, if you can
`look at Claim 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, really the vast
`majority of the claims here make reference to
`pre-game, game interactive, or post-game
`screens.
` Do you -- what d
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