`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 87 of 131
`
`87
`
`And, you know,
`
`this —— this —— in some ways,
`
`it's like a child for me where I was
`
`involved in the
`
`original conception and developmen- o_ it.
`
`And the
`
`that
`
`I became convinced that we actually had an
`
`opportunity here to make a business and help people with
`
`this technology, and that was exciting to me.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`What
`
`is your position at VirnetX?
`
`I'm the Chief Science Q "icer.
`
`What are your responsibilities?
`
`I'm —— I'm responsible for the design,
`
`directing the development, and I do a lot of
`
`the
`
`development on the —— on the Gabriel prodic .
`
`Q.
`
`And tell us again, what stage of development
`
`is your Gabriel product
`
`in?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`It's at
`
`the beta stage.
`
`Are you continuing to develop it?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`But, Dr. Short, do you believe that
`
`Gabriel produc'
`
`can be successful
`
`in internet
`
`applications i- Microsoft continues to infringe your
`
`patent?
`
`MR. %O%ROW:
`
`I need to object.
`
`assumes that Microsoft, again,
`
`is infringing.
`
`THE COURT: Overruled.
`
`Can you repeat
`
`the question, sir?
`
`Microsoft and Apple V. Vi1'netX, IPR2014-00403
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1101
`
`Microsoft and Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2014-00403
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1101
`
`
`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 88 of 131
`
`88
`
`(By Mr. Cawley) Yes, sir.
`
`Do you believe that your Gabriel product can
`
`be successful
`
`in internet applications it Microsott
`
`continues to infringe your patent?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`No, sir.
`
`Why not?
`
`I don't believe that —— that —— number one,
`
`don't believe we can compete with them,
`
`i: they decide
`
`to compete head—to—head with us.
`
`The other is,
`
`I
`
`think it's going to be
`
`di
`
`'icult,
`
`it not
`
`impossible,
`
`to team with other
`
`companies who have ‘o invest
`
`in this e "ort when they
`
`see the potential o: having to compete against
`
`Microsott.
`
`Q.
`
`And finally, Dr. Short,
`
`in —— in developing
`
`products such as Gabriel, did you try to avoid
`
`in‘ringing others’ patents?
`
`A.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`We were really caretul.
`
`comes to our attention that we need to license so.
`
`and we need to license the capability, we do that.
`
`Q.
`
`Thank you, Dr. Short.
`
`MR.
`
`TY:
`
`I'll pass the witness.
`
`T 3 CO QT: All right.
`
`Cross—exam.
`
`M<.
`
`%O <OW:
`
`Thank you, Your Honor.
`
`Your Honor, may I approach the witness
`
`Microsoft and Apple V. Vi1'netX, IPR2014-00403
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1102
`
`Microsoft and Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2014-00403
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1102
`
`
`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 89 of 131
`
`89
`
`with a notebook?
`
`T E COURT: Yes, you may.
`
`W lNfiSS:
`
`Excuse me.
`
`fiXAM NAl ON
`
`%ROW:
`
`Dr. Short, good morning.
`
`Good morning.
`
`My name is Jerry 3obrow.
`
`I represent
`
`have some questions :
`
`you this morning.
`
`And I wanted to start,
`
`i
`
`" might, with some
`
`questions about what you believe that you invented, and
`
`want
`
`to then take you back to around the year 2000
`
`when you filed your patent applications, okay?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay. Yes, sir.
`
`So I believe that your first patent was
`
`in February o: 2000, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`Now, certainly by that time,
`
`there were a
`
`number o:
`
`technologies that were already in existence
`
`for securing communications over the internet;
`
`is that
`
`fair?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`One o_
`
`-hose technologies —— and you alluded
`
`to it a little bit —— is the technology that was called
`
`https, correct?
`
`Microsoft and Apple V. Vi1'netX, IPR2014-00403
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1103
`
`Microsoft and Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2014-00403
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1103
`
`
`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 90 of 131
`
`90
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And you've already told us,
`
`i: we can keep all
`
`o:
`
`these letters straight, what https stood ior.
`
`And
`
`think you said it was something like hypertext trans:er
`
`protocol secure;
`
`is -ha- right?
`
`A.
`
`I believe
`
`-'s right.
`
`I may not be exactly
`
`right.
`
`Q.
`
`All right.
`
`And i‘
`
`" understand what you're
`
`saying, before your patents were filed, users oi
`
`the
`
`internet,
`
`like the people in this courtroom,
`
`i.
`
`-hey are
`
`at home or what—have—you,
`
`that they could use h -ps to
`
`set up a secure connection on the internet;
`
`is
`
`right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And one of the things that you could do to set
`
`up a secure connection on the int rn t b for
`
`th
`
`y ar
`
`2000, before you filed your patents, was you could be at
`
`your, say, home computer and you could type in something
`
`called a domain name;
`
`is that right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`So I could have a web browser opening like
`
`Internet ?xplorer;
`
`" could type in www.amazon.com; and
`
`that would take me
`
`to a website, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And with https, what
`
`I could do is type in
`
`Microsoft and Apple V. Vi1'netX, IPR2014-00403
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1104
`
`Microsoft and Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2014-00403
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1104
`
`
`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 91 of 131
`
`91
`
`https:\\www.amazon.com, and that would take me
`
`to a
`
`secure page at Amazon, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And then I could conduct e—commerce.
`
`I could
`
`buy a book;
`
`I could buy whatever product that was being
`
`sold at Amazon, right?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And I could do that securely, correct?
`
`That's correct.
`
`The credit card information, any other
`
`intormation " needed to enter that was priva-e -o me
`
`would be secure over the internet from my computer to
`
`Amazon, because it was encrypted, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`That's correct, yes, sir.
`
`And part o:
`
`that connection, and one o:
`
`issues I wanted to ask you about,
`
`is that when
`
`home,
`
`to crea-e -haL secure connection, all I have
`
`is type in https www.amazon.com and hit enter, and
`
`connection was automatically created, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And not
`
`just the connection but
`
`the secure
`
`connection was aitomatically created, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`correct?
`
`Yes,
`
`it was.
`
`Users didn't have to do anything else,
`
`Microsoft and Apple V. Vi1'netX, IPR2014-00403
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1105
`
`Microsoft and Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2014-00403
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1105
`
`
`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 92 of 131
`
`92
`
`:'s correct.
`
`So from the user's standpoint before 2000,
`
`what
`
`I could do was type in what's called the domain
`
`name, hit enter, and have a secure, encrypted
`
`connection, right?
`
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`
`Q.
`
`And the technology doing that connection was
`
`something called SSL, right?
`
`believe that's correc , yes, sir.
`
`Secure socket
`
`layer, SS.;
`
`is that right?
`
`jrom the user's perspective,
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And a"
`
`wasn“
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`It was :ast?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And it was,
`
`from the user's standpoint, fast,
`
`e ”icient and,
`
`frankly, user—friendly, wasn't
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes,
`
`it was.
`
`And that whole system, https,
`
`that's not
`
`something that you invented or Mr. Munger
`
`invented or
`
`any o: your co—inventors invented,
`
`is it?
`
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`
`Q.
`
`Now,
`
`i: we might, I'd like to pull up
`
`Microsoft and Apple V. Vi1'netX, IPR2014-00403
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1106
`
`Microsoft and Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2014-00403
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1106
`
`
`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 93 of 131
`
`93
`
`that explanation you gave.
`
`Remember,
`
`you used some
`
`animations and some
`
`'?ower'
`
`?oin
`
`ts and the like?
`
`MR.
`
`%O
`
`%ROW:
`
`we could pull up one o:
`
`Right.
`
`think we need to dim the
`
`don't think we can see that.
`
`Thank you very m
`
`Jch.
`
`Qy Mr.
`
`Qobrow)
`
`Now,
`
`Dr. Short,
`
`this is a
`
`from the presentation you gave in response
`
`"s counsel earlier today;
`
`is that right?
`
`Yes,
`
`sir.
`
`Q.
`
`And
`
`want
`
`to make sure
`
`understand the
`
`various elemen
`
`O
`
`_
`
`this,
`
`okay?
`
`A.
`
`Yes.
`
`Q.
`
`SO i"
`
`"'ve go:
`
`this right,
`
`up in the upper
`
`le
`
`‘t corner,
`
`have what
`
`you're calling a remote user,
`
`right?
`
`A.
`
`Q .
`
`Yes,
`
`sir.
`
`The remote user,
`
`think you even said it
`
`might be somebody at home,
`
`may be somebody at an
`
`airport,
`
`may be somebody at
`
`a hotel;
`
`this is somebody
`
`who is remote,
`
`correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q .
`
`A.
`
`Yes,
`
`sir.
`
`Seeking access to the internet,
`
`right?
`
`Yes.
`
`Microsoft and Apple V. Vi1'netX, IPR2014-00403
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1107
`
`Microsoft and Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2014-00403
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1107
`
`
`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 94 of 131
`
`94
`
`Q.
`
`And that remote user may —— in this example
`
`that you've illustrated,
`
`the idea here is that that
`
`remote user could use https to get
`
`to Acme, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And I
`
`think what you're showing us and what
`
`you told us earlier is that on the internet what you do
`
`to communicate is you don't use physical envelopes,
`
`o:
`
`course, but you use something that you call packets,
`
`right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And I
`
`think what you were saying was that an
`
`envelope and a packet were kind o: similar in that they
`
`have information on the outside o:
`
`them, and they
`
`have information on the inside o:
`
`them, right?
`
`A.
`
`Yes.
`
`Q.
`
`When you were describing here how the https
`
`system works, what you were saying,
`
`I
`
`think,
`
`is that
`
`there's a source address and a destination address on
`
`the outside o:
`
`the packet, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And on the inside o:
`
`the packet
`
`is the
`
`content, right?
`
`The payload it's sometimes called,
`
`think, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And what you're showing there is that the
`
`Microsoft and Apple V. Vi1'netX, IPR2014-00403
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1108
`
`Microsoft and Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2014-00403
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1108
`
`
`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 95 of 131
`
`95
`
`https system would encrypt or scramble up the inner
`
`content o:
`
`the packet, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`But
`
`the outer parts o:
`
`the packet,
`
`the source
`
`address and the computer that was sending the message
`
`and the destination address o:
`
`the computer that would
`
`receive the message, would be visible, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`So if there was a hacker o.
`
`-he -ype you
`
`described earlier,
`
`somebody who, unjor,unately in this
`
`day and age, may be pulling information o
`
`the
`
`internet —— that hacker would be able to see the source
`
`address and the destination address, right?
`
`A.
`
`That's correc .
`
`Q.
`
`And as a result o: that,
`
`it would know which
`
`two computers were communicating with each other,
`
`correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`All right.
`
`Now,
`
`I understand from what you
`
`said that this automated system —— this easy automated
`
`system called https is something yo; didn't invent,
`
`right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`That's correct.
`
`There were a number o: other elements involved
`
`in internet communication, secured internet
`
`Microsoft and Apple V. Vi1'netX, IPR2014-00403
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1109
`
`Microsoft and Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2014-00403
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1109
`
`
`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 96 of 131
`
`96
`
`communication you didn't
`
`invent either, right?
`
`A.
`
`I'm sure that's correct.
`
`Q.
`
`The whole domain name system is something that
`
`you didn't invent,
`
`is it?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`No, sir, we did not.
`
`The use o: domain names was something you
`
`didn't
`
`invent, correct?
`
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`
`Q.
`
`Encryption is something that you didn't
`
`invent
`
`in these patents, correct?
`
`A.
`
`That
`
`is correct.
`
`Q.
`
`And another thing that you didn't
`
`inven'
`
`related to secure communication were the actual V?Ns
`
`themselves, correct?
`
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`
`Q.
`
`V?Ns were already known prior to 2000 when you
`
`‘filed the patents, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And they were known before September
`
`l999 when
`
`you had the train ride that you described earlier,
`
`correct?
`
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`
`Q.
`
`By September of
`
`l999,
`
`there were a number o:
`
`'erent kinds o:
`
`?Ns, weren't
`
`there?
`
`A.
`
`I believe that's correct, yes, sir.
`
`Microsoft and Apple V. Vi1'netX, IPR2014-00403
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1110
`
`Microsoft and Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2014-00403
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1110
`
`
`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 97 of 131
`
`97
`
`Q.
`
`One o:
`
`them that you described and spent
`
`some
`
`time over there, when you were marking up on those
`
`large, white boards,
`
`that was
`
`a V?N that was called an
`
`9 SfiC tunnel—mode V?N, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`All right.
`
`That was one V?N that was out
`
`there at
`
`the time prior to the filing o: your patents
`
`and prior to the time that you had the idea that
`
`led to
`
`your patents, correct?
`
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`
`But that wasn't
`
`the only one, was it?
`
`That's correct. Yes, sir.
`
`There was also something that was available
`
`those times that was called a 9919 VBN,
`
`.319 V-
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`I understand that's trie, yes, sir.
`
`And a
`
`.919 VBN, and I
`
`think —— you were here
`
`‘or the opening statements, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`I was, yes, sir.
`
`And so you heard something about
`
`that context, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`All right.
`
`But that
`
`is your understanding
`
`that was
`
`a V?N that was available before the year 2000?
`
`A.
`
`That's what
`
`I understand, yes, sir.
`
`Microsoft and Apple V. Vi1'netX, IPR2014-00403
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1111
`
`Microsoft and Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2014-00403
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1111
`
`
`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 98 of 131
`
`98
`
`And there was also a V?N that was called an
`
`L2TL
`
`" " can just keep with the alphabet soup,
`
`an L2TL
`
`V?N tha' was also available before the time you filed
`
`your pa-en-s, right?
`
`A.
`
`I'm not sure "'m ‘amiliar with L2TL.
`
`familiar, but
`
`I can't answer yes or no on that.
`
`Q. Well, you mentioned that you did some research
`
`fore the time that your patent was filed, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, we did.
`
`You're not claiming your research in this
`
`‘field was comprehensive, was it?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`?robably not, no, sir.
`
`So you're not saying there that LZT? didn't
`
`exist; you're just saying you don't know either way;
`
`is
`
`that right?
`
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`
`Q.
`
`Now, when you were talking about
`
`the _a tunnel
`
`V?N earlier and you had all the boards Jp over there,
`
`that was not saying how to configure a 9919 VBN, was it?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`No, sir.
`
`None o:
`
`those steps, none o:
`
`those pages o:
`
`bullet points and numbered paragraphs, none of that had
`
`to do with how you configure a 9919 VBN,
`
`righ .
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir;
`
`that
`
`is true.
`
`And none of
`
`those steps that you described in
`
`Microsoft and Apple V. Vi1'netX, IPR2014-00403
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1112
`
`Microsoft and Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2014-00403
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1112
`
`
`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 99 of 131
`
`99
`
`that
`
`
`
`' boards that we wentlong list o:
`
`through, describe
`
`the steps
`
`for how to implement an L219 VBN, correct?
`
`A.
`
`We"1,
`
`don't know how to con:
`
`figure it,
`
`so
`
`don't know if any of
`
`those are relevant or not.
`
`Q.
`
`But
`
`what
`
`the document described and what you
`
`said was that those were the steps for an
`
`9 SfiC
`
`tunnel—mode V?N, not for any other V?N, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir,
`
`that's true.
`
`Now,
`
`I'd like to pull up,
`
`if we might, another
`
`graphic that you used as part of your explanation o:
`
`this process.
`
`And I
`
`think,
`
`i-
`
`was
`
`listening and paying
`
`attention to what you were saying
`
`was certainly
`
`doing my best, and I hope
`
`didn't get it wrong —— so
`
`tell me,
`
`believe this is a graphic of what you were
`
`describing as a basic V?N.
`
`Did I get that right?
`
`Yes.
`
`This was an example, sir.
`
`understand.
`
`And
`
`I'm just trying to make sure that
`
`fusing this image with an https image.
`
`So this is a V?N,
`
`right?
`
`Yes.
`
`Okay.
`
`Thank you very much.
`
`And what you've depicted here is a very
`
`Microsoft and Apple V. Vi1'netX, IPR2014-00403
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1113
`
`Microsoft and Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2014-00403
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1113
`
`
`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 100 of 131
`
`100
`
`typical situation wh r
`
`,
`
`v n
`
`b for
`
`2000,
`
`a user would
`
`want
`
`to use a V?N, correct?
`
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`
`Q.
`
`And what you're depicting here is,
`
`once again,
`
`the remote user up in the upper le:
`
`ft—hand corner, okay?
`
`Is that right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And, again,
`
`this could be someone who's
`
`seeking what's called remote access, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`All right.
`
`So this person has a computer at
`
`the airport, at
`
`a hotel, maybe at home, one of those
`
`types o;' places where you're seeking remote access.
`
`And what you're trying to get
`
`to by the remote access is
`
`you're trying to get —— ‘or in
`
`‘ormation, you're trying
`
`to access in:
`
`formation back at your company, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`So you want
`
`to get
`
`those resources that are at
`
`YOU]? company,
`
`but you're remo-e
`
`jrom your company,
`
`right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes.
`
`Or send information.
`
`And so
`
`think what you're depicting here is
`
`that here's this remote user.
`
`He or she is away from
`
`the Acme Company and wants to set up a V
`
`?N back into the
`
`Acme Company, correct?
`
`Microsoft and Apple V. Vi1'netX, IPR2014-00403
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1114
`
`Microsoft and Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2014-00403
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1114
`
`
`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 101 of 131
`
`1 0 1
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`Now, with the scenario that's painted here
`
`with th
`
`r mot
`
`us r
`
`s
`
`king remote access,
`
`that
`
`scenario,
`
`the common scenario for using a V?W, has
`
`absolutely nothing to do with the V?N configaration that
`
`you talked about with all those big poster boards when
`
`you were describing an
`
`9 SfiC tunnel V?N, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Can you repeat
`
`the question, please?
`
`will.
`
`Sure.
`
`Thank you.
`
`This scenario o: creating a V?N by a remote
`
`access user has nothing to do with the V?N that you were
`
`describing when you were using those —— the white poster
`
`boards and the red ink and you were going through the
`
`steps to create that
`
`9 SfiC tunnel V?N, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`I don't know i: that's true or not, sir.
`
`All right. Well, you certainly read —
`
`we can put it up —— Exhibi'
`
`?X983.
`
`Now, sir,
`
`I don't have those boards. Maybe
`
`they're over there, but what
`
`I'm showing you on that
`
`screen is an image o.
`
`-he document that you walked
`
`everybody in the courtroom through,
`
`to show all the
`
`di"'erent steps that are involved in creating an
`
`tunnel V?N, right?
`
`A.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`Microsoft and Apple V. Vi1'netX, IPR2014-00403
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1115
`
`Microsoft and Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2014-00403
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1115
`
`
`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 102 of 131
`
`1 0 2
`
`With Windows 2000, right?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`All right.
`
`Now,
`
`this document
`
`is a Microsof
`
`document, as you said, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`document?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`When was the first time you read this
`
`A.
`
`I've never seen this document.
`
`An earlier
`
`version o: this document, back in the 2000 timeframe.
`
`Q.
`
`So not this version o.
`
`'- but an earlier
`
`version ‘rom 2000?
`
`A.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`I believe this is a revised
`
`version.
`
`Q.
`
`And that version back then and this version
`
`now we're describing, again,
`
`this
`
`9 sac :unnel—mode,
`
`right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`Now, what I'd like you to do —— I'd like to
`
`direct your attention to -he text
`
`that
`
`is underneath ——
`
`it's about
`
`the middle o.
`
`-he page, and there's a
`
`paragraph that begins: Windows 2000
`
`9 SfiC tunneling.
`
`MR. %O%ROW: Let's see how big we can
`
`make that.
`
`Can you make that any bigger, Chris?
`
`Thank you.
`
`Microsoft and Apple V. Vi1'netX, IPR2014-00403
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1116
`
`Microsoft and Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2014-00403
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1116
`
`
`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 103 of 131
`
`103
`
`Q.
`
`(Qy Mr. Qobrow) So the first page o: this
`
`document
`
`is not a page that you marked up for the
`
`ladies o:
`
`the jury, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`All right.
`
`But you did read this page to
`
`yoursel:
`
`either back in 2000 or recently, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`I'm sure I did, yes, sir.
`
`What this paragraph says at
`
`the start is that
`
`Windows 2000,
`
`the
`
`9 SfiC tunneling is not supported :or
`
`client remote access V?N use.
`
`You see what "'m reterring to there, right?
`
`A.
`
`Yes. Yes, sir, because the NRFCs don't
`
`provide the access solution.
`
`Q.
`
`Right.
`
`So what this is saying to people who are
`
`reading the Microso L
`
`in'ormation is that the
`
`9 SfiC
`
`tunneling mode with Windows 2000 is not for use in the
`
`remote access V?N scenario, correct?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`Those two aren't.
`
`What it's saying instead is, don't use that
`
`don't use that
`
`9 sec tunnel—mode V?N.
`
`What this document says, does it no
`
`V?N, correct?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`What it says to do is,
`
`instead o: using the
`
`Microsoft and Apple V. Vi1'netX, IPR2014-00403
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1117
`
`Microsoft and Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2014-00403
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1117
`
`
`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 104 of 131
`
`1 0 4
`
`SEC tunnel—mode V?N that you showed on these boards,
`
`is
`
`that
`
`instead to use an 4219 VBN, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And what it adds is that there were several
`
`companies,
`
`including Microso_- and Cisco, who
`
`specifically developed the L291 VBN for the purpose o:
`
`providing client remote—access V?W connections, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`So what this document
`
`is saying is,
`
`forget
`
`the
`
`fiC VBN. Use the 4291 VBN when you want
`
`to have
`
`remote access o.
`
`-he -ype that you were describing in
`
`your graphics.
`
`When you want
`
`to do that, use the L2-
`
`correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And one of the things that it further adds is
`
`that
`
`in Windows 2000,
`
`it says that client remote—access
`
`V?N connections are protected using an aitomatically
`
`generated
`
`9 sec policy, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`So the user isn't creating that policy.
`
`That
`
`policy is automatically created, right?
`
`A.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`Now,
`
`I noticed that as you were going through
`
`the steps describing the
`
`9 SfiC tunnel VBN,
`
`Microsoft and Apple V. Vi1'netX, IPR2014-00403
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1118
`
`Microsoft and Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2014-00403
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1118
`
`
`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 105 of 131
`
`lO5
`
`wanted to through with you some o:
`
`the other V?Ns that
`
`were around at that time just so -ha- we're all clear
`
`about what you were trying to demonstrate to us.
`
`And —— and there was one technology that's
`
`been discussed —— you were here for at
`
`least part o; it,
`
`because it was
`
`in the opening —— was a technology that
`
`was called Aventail.
`
`Does that name ring a bell?
`
`Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
`
`Now,
`
`that
`
`lengthy protocol o: steps that you
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`went
`
`through with all these pages
`
`‘or
`
`9 SfiC tunnel
`
`mode,
`
`that was not describing how Aventail works, was
`
`No —— not
`
`to my knowledge, sir. No.
`
`To your knowledge, Aventail did not use an
`
`right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`I don't know one way or
`
`the other, sir.
`
`And so as far as you know, Aventail didn't
`
`that technology, correo
`
`A.
`
`That's correo
`
`Q.
`
`Now, I'd like you in your book, or you can
`
`simply look on the screen —— I want
`
`to direct your
`
`attention to Defendant's Exhibit 3121.
`
`Now,
`
`I know you said you did some research
`
`back in the day when you were looking to secure
`
`Microsoft and Apple V. Vi1'netX, IPR2014-00403
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1119
`
`Microsoft and Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2014-00403
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1119
`
`
`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 106 of 131
`
`106
`
`information, and you were looking at di
`
`technologies, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And you certainly had done enough research to
`
`have seen a prior version of this Windows 2000 exhibit
`
`that we
`
`just
`
`looked at a moment ago, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`All righ .
`
`So one o:
`
`the things I wanted to
`
`find out, Jr. Short, was,
`
`I put
`
`in front o_ you this
`
`exhibit, which is called Microsoft Windows NT Server
`
`Operating System,
`
`a white paper, and then underneath it
`
`says Microso - Virtual ?rivate Networking Using
`
`?oint—to—?oint Tunneling ?rotocol for Low—Cost, Secure,
`
`Qemote Access Across the Internet.
`
`Do you see that?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`All right.
`
`And if you would turn the page ——
`
`MR. %O%ROW:
`
`This is going to be hard
`
`‘Or,
`
`"
`
`think, everybody to read,
`
`so could you blow that
`
`up, Chris?
`
`How do you like that for a copyright page?
`
`Why don't we
`
`take a look,
`
`though, and
`
`blow that up if we can.
`
`Q.
`
`(Qy Mr. Qobrow) And you'll see in the very
`
`upper left,
`
`that this document bears a copyright date o:
`
`l996.
`
`Microsoft and Apple V. Vi1'netX, IPR2014-00403
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1120
`
`Microsoft and Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2014-00403
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1120
`
`
`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 107 of 131
`
`1 0 7
`
`Do you see that?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And if you go to the next page,
`
`there was
`
`some
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`formation available to folks to look at about
`
`-31-
`
`?NS.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Do you see what
`
`"
`
`ferring to?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And in the upper left corner,
`
`it talks about
`
`virtual private networking, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And it mentions the point—to—point
`
`tunneling
`
`protocol or
`
`.919, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And you understand that back in this time in
`
`l996,
`
`that was
`
`a technology that Microsoft was working
`
`on, 9919 VBN.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And what this manual
`
`is telling
`
`those .919 V9Ns were for remote users,
`
`i:
`
`the third line, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`This technology was about allowing remote
`
`users to connect securely using a V?N, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And it describes those V?N connections using
`
`Microsoft and Apple V. Vi1'netX, IPR2014-00403
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1121
`
`Microsoft and Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2014-00403
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1121
`
`
`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 108 of 131
`
`108
`
`9 as being easy—to—implemen: solutions for creating
`
`are and encrypted communications across the internet.
`
`Do you see that?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`All right.
`
`Now,
`
`i-
`
`" direct your attention to
`
`?age —— and there are lots and lots of page numbers on
`
`these documents,
`
`so forgive me.
`
`need to direct your attention to a page
`
`that's called 3l2l.OO7.
`
`It's in the —— the page numbers
`
`are in the lower right corner.
`
`And it will be up on the
`
`screen, but feel
`
`free to look at it in your book,
`
`i; you
`
`wish.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`This is easier, actually.
`
`All right.
`
`And I wanted to first have you
`
`look at
`
`the top of
`
`the page where there's a figure, and
`
`that figure is describing some V?N connection scenarios
`
`using 9919, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`All right.
`
`And the scenario that
`
`is being
`
`painted here is one where you have remote users on the
`
`one hand trying to connect
`
`to corporate resources on the
`
`other hand, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And wha
`
`-his is saying is that back in l996,
`
`you could use -91-
`
`to connect remotely to corporate
`
`Microsoft and Apple V. Vi1'netX, IPR2014-00403
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1122
`
`Microsoft and Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2014-00403
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1122
`
`
`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 109 of 131
`
`lO9
`
`resources using a V?N, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`It describes doing that
`
`lower down on the
`
`MR. %O%ROW:
`
`"‘ we could show that.
`
`Q.
`
`(Qy Mr. Qobrow) This publication,
`
`ixhibit 3121,
`
`‘rom 1996 describes doing that as being
`
`easy, easy implementation, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`Now,
`
`i: we go to ?age ll,
`
`there's a —— the
`
`second paragraph from the top is called Making
`
`to Use.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Do you see that?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And that, once again,
`
`is describing that it is
`
`for clients and servers and for clients —— I'm
`
`sorry.
`
`It says that ease o: use has been built into
`
`V?N from its inception for both the server and client
`
`personal computer.
`
`Do you see that?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And right underneath that ——
`
`MR. %O%ROW:
`
`"‘ we can go down the page.
`
`Qobrow)
`
`—— it says that setting up the
`
`Microsoft and Apple V. Vi1'netX, IPR2014-00403
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1123
`
`Microsoft and Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2014-00403
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1123
`
`
`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 110 of 131
`
`llO
`
`?N on Windows NT Server 4.0 is easy,
`
`correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`So certainly,
`
`?xhibit 3121
`
`is describing and
`
`telling people that using
`
`.919 VBN,
`
`it was easy to make
`
`a remote access connection securely to corporate
`
`JCGSOUJCCGS .
`
`That's what this is saying,
`
`isn't it?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And tinally,
`
`i-
`
`?age 3l2l.Ol3,
`
`MR.
`
`we can highlight
`
`the
`
`bottom paragraph.
`
`Q.
`
`(Qy Mr.
`
`Qobrow)
`
`this is, once again,
`
`talking aboit 3919,
`
`correct?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And creating V?N connections,
`
`correct?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And at
`
`the bottom o:
`
`this paragraph,
`
`it says
`
`that to 'irther simpli
`
`‘y use,
`
`both the "S9 connection
`
`and the V?W connection can be set
`
`up and activated from
`
`one easy AitoDial phone book entry.
`
`Do you see what
`
`"'m re‘erring to there?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And you were here when there was
`
`some mention
`
`Dial
`
`in the courtroom, correct?
`
`Microsoft and Apple V. Vi1'netX, IPR2014-00403
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1124
`
`Microsoft and Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2014-00403
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1124
`
`
`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 111 of 131
`
`1 1 1
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes,
`
`I was.
`
`All right.
`
`And what this is describing is how
`
`you can use AutoDial
`
`to easily create a V?N connection
`
`in that remote access V?N scenario, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And I
`
`take it that you understand that this
`
`kind o:
`
`a V?N, when you're talking about remote access
`
`and the like,
`
`-haL -his kind o:
`
`a system is using the
`
`DNS injrasLruc-ure that was already in existence,
`
`correct?
`
`A.
`
`That
`
`.919 was using the —— I don't know one
`
`way or
`
`the other, sir.
`
`Q. Well,
`
`let's take a look at ?age 20, and you'll
`
`see, at
`
`the bottom o.
`
`-haL page,
`
`there's a paragraph
`
`labeled summary.
`
`Do you see that?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And towards the bottom of that paragraph,
`
`in
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`talking about
`
`.319 V9Ns,
`
`it says that the security,
`
`reliability, ease o: use, and speed o; 9919—enabled
`
`Windows NT servers, combined with the DWS
`
`infrastructure
`
`provides significantly enhanced business—to—business
`
`communications across the internet.
`
`Do you see that?
`
`Yes, sir,
`
`I see that.
`
`Microsoft and Apple V. Vi1'netX, IPR2014-00403
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1125
`
`Microsoft and Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2014-00403
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1125
`
`
`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 112 of 131
`
`Q.
`
`So what
`
`'
`
`— so what this is saying is tha
`
`when you're using __
`
`_ and you have remote access,
`
`that
`
`that's taking advantage of
`
`the DNS infrastructure to
`
`create secure communications across the internet, right?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`Okay.
`
`And that was
`
`in l996, correct?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`That was three or maybe four years be:
`
`filed your patent application, right?
`
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`
`Q.
`
`Certainly,
`
`three years before you had the idea
`
`that
`
`led to your patent applications, correct?
`
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`
`Q.
`
`All right.
`
`Now,
`
`I wanted to shift subjects a
`
`bit, and I now wanted to ask you some questions abou'
`
`the demonstration that you were kind enough to show
`
`JS using the two computers that are over there, one
`
`that's in fron
`
`_ Mr. Munger and one that
`
`is on —— that
`
`was on tha- li
`
`easel or what—have—you over by the
`
`jurors.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`You know
`
`I'm talking about, right?
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And I
`
`think what you told us was that both o:
`
`these computers in the courtroom were running what
`
`you're calling the Gabriel connection software;
`
`is that
`
`Microsoft and Apple V. Vi1'netX, IPR2014-00403
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1126
`
`Microsoft and Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2014-00403
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1126
`
`
`
`Case 6:07-cv-00080-LED Document 390
`
`Filed 04/05/10 Page 113 of 131
`
`1 1 3
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`And this is the software that you've been
`
`working on for several years, right?
`
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`
`Q.
`
`This technology,
`
`this software includes the
`
`patented technology that
`
`is the subject of your patents,
`
`right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`Now, when you ran this demonstration in the
`
`courtroom,
`
`I trust that this was not
`
`the first time that
`
`you used the computer that
`
`is over by Mr. Cawley right
`
`now, was it?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`No, sir.
`
`And this wasn't
`
`the first time that Mr. Munger
`
`used the computer that's in front o_ him, was it?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`No, sir.
`
`I assume the two of you have communicated
`
`using these computers at various times over the last
`
`several years, right?
`
`A.
`
`No, sir.
`
`Those were just set up speci:
`
`for this demonstration.
`
`Q.
`
`Ah, okay.
`
`So —— so how old are those
`
`computers?
`
`How long have you had them?
`
`A.
`
`The one over on the easel, maybe for a month,
`
`Microsoft and Apple V. Vi1'netX, IPR2014-00403
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Ex. 1028, p. 1127
`
`Microsoft and Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2014-004