Kramer, Richard A.
`
`September 2, 2014
`
`IPR 2014-00269
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`NETFLIX,
`
`INC.,
`
`Vs.
`
`OPENTV,
`
`INC.,
`
`Petitioner,
`
`IPR20l4—OO269
`
`Patent 6,233,726
`
`Patent Owner.
`
`Certified Copy
`
`DEPOSITION OF RICHARD A. KRAMER
`
`San Francisco, California
`
`Tuesday, September 2, 2014
`
`9:06 a.m.
`
`Reported by:
`
`SANDRA BUNCH VANDER POL, CSR #3032
`
`CMR, CRR, CLR, RSA credentialed
`
`202-220-415 8
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`wwwhendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`September 2, 2014
`
`IPR 2014-00269
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`NETFLIX,
`
`INC.,
`
`Vs.
`
`OPENTV,
`
`INC.,
`
`Petitioner,
`
`IPR20l4—OO269
`
`Patent 6,233,726
`
`Patent Owner.
`
`Certified Copy
`
`DEPOSITION OF RICHARD A. KRAMER
`
`San Francisco, California
`
`Tuesday, September 2, 2014
`
`9:06 a.m.
`
`Reported by:
`
`SANDRA BUNCH VANDER POL, CSR #3032
`
`CMR, CRR, CLR, RSA credentialed
`
`202-220-415 8
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`wwwhendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`Kramer, Richard A.
`
`September 2, 2014
`
`IPR 2014-00269
`
`Deposition of RICHARD A. KRAMER held at
`
`the offices of:
`
`DURIE TANGRI
`
`217 Leidesdorff Street
`
`San Francisco, California
`
`(415) 362-6666
`
`Pursuant to agreement, before SANDRA BUNCH
`
`VANDER POL, CSR No. 3032, RMR, CRR, CLR, RSA
`
`Credentialed
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`wwwhendersonlegalservices.com
`
`202-220-415 8
`
`Page 2 of 87
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`
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`Kramer, Richard A.
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`September 2, 2014
`
`IPR 2014-00269
`
`A P P E A R A N C E S
`
`ON BEHALF OF NETFLIX,
`
`INC.:
`
`CLEMENT S. ROBERTS, ESQUIRE
`
`LAURA E. MILLER, ESQUIRE (Portion)
`
`DURIE TANGRI
`
`217 Leidesdorff Street
`
`San Francisco, California 94111
`
`(415) 362-6666
`
`croberts@durietangri.com
`
`1mi11er@durietangri.com
`
`SCOTT T.
`
`JARRATT, ESQUIRE
`
`HAYNES BOONE, LLP
`
`2505 N. Plano Road, Suite 4000
`
`Richardson, Texas 75082-4101
`
`(972) 739-8663
`
`scott.jarratt@haynesboone.com
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`wwwhendersonlegalservices.com
`
`202-220-415 8
`
`Page 3 of 87
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`
`
`Kramer, Richard A.
`
`September 2, 2014
`
`IPR 2014-00269
`
`A P P E A R A N C E S
`
`(Continued)
`
`ON BEHALF OF OPENTV,
`
`INC.:
`
`JOSHUA L. GOLDBERG, ESQUIRE
`
`ALYSSA J. HOLTSLANDER, ESQUIRE
`
`FINNEGAN, HENDERSON, FARABOW, GARRETT &
`
`DUNNER, LLP
`
`901 New York Avenue, NW
`
`Washington, DC 20001-4413
`
`(202) 408-4000
`
`joshua.goldberg@finnegan.com
`
`alyssa.holtslander@finnegan.com
`
`JAMES B. MEDEK, ESQUIRE
`
`KIRKLAND & ELLIS, LLP
`
`300 North Lasalle Street
`
`Chicago, Illinois 60654
`
`(312) 862-7336
`
`James.medek@Kirkland.com
`
`202-220-415 8
`
`Page 4 of 87
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`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlega1serVices.com
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`
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`Kramer, Richard A.
`
`September 2, 2014
`
`IPR 2014-00269
`
`EXAMINATION OF RICHARD A. KRAMER:
`
`C O N T E N T S
`
`Examination by:
`
`MR. GOLDBERG
`
`BY MR. ROBERTS
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.henders0n1ega1serVices.corn
`
`202-220-415 8
`
`Page5of87
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`
`
`Kramer, Richard A.
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`September 2, 2014
`
`IPR 2014-00269
`
`P R O C E E D I N G S
`
`Whereupon, RICHARD A. KRAMER was called
`
`for examination by counsel and, after having
`
`been duly sworn/affirmed, was examined and
`
`testified as follows:
`
`———oOo———
`
`MR. GOLDBERG: Good morning. This is
`
`Joshua Goldberg for OpenTV.
`
`MS. HOLTSLANDER: This is Alyssa
`
`Holtslander for OpenTV.
`
`MR. MEDEK:
`
`Jim Medek, Kirkland & Ellis,
`
`for OpenTV.
`
`MR. ROBERTS: Clement Roberts,
`
`from Durie
`
`Tangri,
`
`for Netflix.
`
`MR.
`
`JARRATT: Scott Jarratt.
`
`I'm with
`
`Haynes and Boone for Netflix.
`
`CROSS-EXAMINATION
`
`BY MR. GOLDBERG:
`
`Q.
`
`Good morning. Mr. Kramer, could you
`
`please state your full name and address for the
`
`record.
`
`A.
`
`Richard Allen Kramer. My address is
`
`845 Sahalee Court, Southeast, Salem, Oregon 97306.
`
`Q.
`
`And do you understand that you're under
`
`oath this morning?
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlega1serVices.com
`
`202-220-415 8
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`Page6of87
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`
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`Kramer, Richard A.
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`September 2, 2014
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`IPR 2014-00269
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`A.
`
`Q.
`
`I do.
`
`And this means you are sworn to tell the
`
`truth as if you were in a courtroom with a judge
`
`and jury?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`I do.
`
`And there's nothing that will prevent you
`
`from giving me full and truthful answers today,
`
`right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Nothing.
`
`You haven't taken any medication that
`
`would prevent you from giving me full and truthful
`
`answers today, right?
`
`A.
`
`No.
`
`Q.
`
`Just to be clear on that.
`
`"No," as in you
`
`have not taken any medication?
`
`A.
`
`No, I have not taken any medication.
`
`Sorry.
`
`Q.
`
`Nos and yeses. Okay.
`
`Have you been deposed before?
`
`I have.
`
`How many times?
`
`Twice.
`
`So I'm not sure how your previous
`
`A Q
`
`.
`
`A
`
`Q.
`
`depositions went, but I'm not here to trick or
`
`confuse you.
`
`If you don't understand a question,
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.henderson1ega1serVices.com
`
`202-220-415 8
`
`Page'7of87
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`
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`Kramer, Richard A.
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`September 2, 2014
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`IPR 2014-00269
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`please ask me to clarify, okay?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`Is it fair for me to assume that if I ask
`
`you a question and you answer it, you understand
`
`what I asked you?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes.
`
`We will try to take breaks every
`
`60 minutes or so. Before we take a break today,
`
`I'd like you to complete your answer to any
`
`question that's pending;
`
`is that fair?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`That's fair.
`
`Also, please let me know if you need a
`
`break. Again,
`
`I just ask that you complete your
`
`answer to any question that's pending prior to the
`
`break. Okay?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`Now, during any break we take, you may not
`
`discuss the substance of your testimony with
`
`Netflix's counsel, okay?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`So, Mr. Kramer,
`
`I am handing you a copy of
`
`what's been marked as Netflix's Exhibit 1003.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Thank you.
`
`This is a complete copy of your
`
`declaration in this proceeding, right?
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.henderson1egalserVices.com
`
`202-220-415 8
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`Page 8 of 87
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`
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`Kramer, Richard A.
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`September 2, 2014
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`IPR 2014-00269
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`A.
`
`It appears to be.
`
`It was just handed to
`
`me.
`
`It looks like it's a complete copy, but I have
`
`not been through it thoroughly.
`
`Q.
`
`But it looks like all the pages are there,
`
`at least on your review?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes.
`
`Okay. Turning to page 70 of your
`
`declaration. Under the heading,
`
`"SIS Development,
`
`Inc.," do you see a list of intellectual property
`
`matters?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`I do.
`
`Aside from intellectual property matters
`
`for Netflix,
`
`is this a complete list of the
`
`intellectual property matters you have worked on?
`
`A.
`
`It is not a complete list.
`
`Some of my
`
`clients have asked that I retain them as
`
`confidential.
`
`Q.
`
`About how many clients has that been the
`
`case for?
`
`A.
`
`At least one. There's probably -- since
`
`this was published, I may have worked on one or two
`
`other cases as well.
`
`Q.
`
`Have you worked on any cases not listed
`
`here for which the client did not request to remain
`
`confidential?
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.henderson1ega1serVices.c0m
`
`202-220-415 8
`
`Page 9 of 87
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`
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`Kramer, Richard A.
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`September 2, 2014
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`IPR 2014-00269
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`10
`
`A.
`
`There are other cases I have worked on
`
`that are not listed here since this was published,
`
`and including where my clients have asked that
`
`their names not be —- and I've signed
`
`confidentiality agreements where I would not
`
`disclose their name.
`
`Q. What additional cases have you worked on
`
`since this was prepared for which the client did
`
`not request that they remain confidential?
`
`A.
`
`There is a case where I just simply
`
`provided consulting representing CBS Interactive,
`
`Google, Yahoo, and a consortium of others.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Any others? Any other cases,
`
`that is?
`
`A case called Transdata.
`
`Do you remember any other parties involved
`
`in that case?
`
`A.
`
`It's a —— it's a joint task force of,
`
`generally, electric utilities.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`And is that a district court litigation?
`
`It is.
`
`Okay. Any other cases?
`
`Not that I'm aware of. Other than one
`
`that I mentioned that I can't list.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`202-220-415 8
`
`Page 10 of 87
`
`Okay.
`
`And, frankly, for that case I haven't done
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.henderson1ega1serVices.com
`
`
`
`Kramer, Richard A.
`
`September 2, 2014
`
`IPR 2014-00269
`
`any work on the case.
`
`Q.
`
`Thank you.
`
`When did you start working on intellectual
`
`property matters for Netflix?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`When I developed these IPR declarations.
`
`And when you say "these IPR declarations,"
`
`are you referring to the declarations regarding
`
`U.S. Patent Nos. 6,018,768; 6,233,736; 7,409,437;
`
`and 8,107,786?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`That sounds correct.
`
`Have you done any other work for Netflix?
`
`MR. ROBERTS:
`
`I am going to object to the
`
`question to the extent it calls for work product.
`
`I am going to instruct the witness not to
`
`answer.
`
`BY MR. GOLDBERG:
`
`Q. Well,
`
`turning --
`
`MR. ROBERTS: Let me be clear.
`
`The
`
`witness may answer the question to the extent to
`
`which you have done work for Netflix, not at the
`
`request or direction of counsel.
`
`So if you have
`
`done any work for Netflix, other than for Netflix's
`
`outside counsel,
`
`the lawyers, you can answer the
`
`question.
`
`THE WITNESS:
`
`So outside of that,
`
`I have
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
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`202-220-415 8
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`Page11 of87
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`
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`Kramer, Richard A.
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`September 2, 2014
`
`IPR 2014-00269
`
`not done any work for Netflix.
`
`MR. GOLDBERG: Okay.
`
`Thank you.
`
`Q.
`
`How are you being compensated by Netflix
`
`for your work on these declarations?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`I am being paid an hourly rate.
`
`About how many hours have you spent
`
`working with respect to the declaration for this
`
`proceeding?
`
`A.
`
`For these --
`
`MR. ROBERTS: Objection. Vague.
`
`BY MR . GOLDBERG:
`
`Q.
`
`How many hours have you spent working on
`
`the declaration in the proceeding —-
`
`in the IPR
`
`proceeding associated with U.S. Patent
`
`No. 6,233,736?
`
`A.
`
`Approximately 50 hours to 75, I'd say,
`
`in
`
`that range.
`
`Q.
`
`Turning to pages 70 to 72 of your
`
`declaration.
`
`These pages list several places you
`
`have worked, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`That is correct.
`
`Have you worked anywhere not listed on
`
`pages 70 to 72 of your declaration?
`
`A.
`
`It's ancient history. But when I
`
`graduated from college, I worked at
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.henderson1ega1services.com
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`202-220-415 8
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`Page 12 of 87
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`
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`Kramer, Richard A.
`
`September 2, 2014
`
`IPR 2014-00269
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`General Electric for approximately nine months.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`And what did you do at General Electric?
`
`That was just an entry—level engineer in
`
`the Cellphone Division of mobile radio.
`
`Q.
`
`And is there anywhere else that you worked
`
`that is not listed on pages 70 to 72 of your
`
`declaration?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Not that I'm aware of.
`
`Looking at page 72 of your declaration,
`
`you indicate that you began working at Babcock &
`
`Wilcox in 1984, right?
`
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`
`What did you do at Babcock & Wilcox?
`
`A.
`
`I was an electronic design engineer, and I
`
`was promoted to senior design engineer.
`
`Q.
`
`Your work at Babcock & Wilcox did not deal
`
`with developing subscriber television solutions and
`
`technologies, correct?
`
`A.
`
`The work at Babcock & Wilcox involved
`
`instrumentation and control systems, which included
`
`video cameras and surveillance of the internals of
`
`nuclear power plant cores.
`
`Q.
`
`What year did you begin working on the
`
`instrumentation and control systems which included
`
`video cameras and surveillance?
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.henders0n1ega1serVices.com
`
`202-220-415 8
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`Page 13 of 87
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`
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`Kramer, Richard A.
`
`September 2, 2014
`
`IPR 2014-00269
`
`A.
`
`To my best recollection, as soon as I
`
`started there.
`
`The name of the organization was
`
`Special Products Integrated Field Services. And so
`
`our job was to develop instrumentation and control
`
`systems for being able to go into nuclear power
`
`plant cores and make repairs.
`
`Q.
`
`Who used these instrumentation and control
`
`systems that you worked with?
`
`A.
`
`Primarily we did. We had field
`
`technicians.
`
`I was a design engineer. We, for
`
`instance, developed a system called Roger, which
`
`was a robot that went into reactor -- actually,
`
`the
`
`heat exchangers within nuclear power plants, which
`
`were prone to leaking nuclear wastewater. And the
`
`robots would make repairs remotely.
`
`We would run a cable back about 500 feet
`
`to a trailer, and technicians would then operate
`
`the system guided by video cameras and other
`
`intelligence that mounted to Roger the robot.
`
`Q.
`
`And these technicians were with Babcock &
`
`Wilcox?
`
`A.
`
`That is correct.
`
`It was part of our field
`
`services.
`
`So we were hired by the nuclear power
`
`plants to come in and make repairs usually during
`
`fuel -- refueling and other outages.
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`wwwhendersonlegalservices.com
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`202-220-415 8
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`Page 14 of 87
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`Kramer, Richard A.
`
`September 2, 2014
`
`IPR 2014-00269
`
`15
`
`Q.
`
`Did anyone outside of Babcock & Wilcox use
`
`the systems?
`
`A.
`
`I doubt it. We were highly trained on how
`
`to use the systems ourselves. We installed them.
`
`It wouldn't be normal for the power plant operator
`
`to operate them. We would make repairs,
`
`then,
`
`based on —- we would use the robots to make
`
`repairs.
`
`Q.
`
`When did you stop working on those Video
`
`systems?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`When I left in 1987.
`
`Thank you.
`
`And to clarify,
`
`those systems was the ones
`
`at Babcock & Wilcox.
`
`Q.
`
`Thank you.
`
`Now, still on page 72, you indicate that
`
`you began working at Schlumberger —— I'm not sure
`
`how you pronounce it.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Schlumberger.
`
`It's French.
`
`In 1987 you began working at Schlumberger,
`
`That is correct.
`
`And what did you do at Schlumberger?
`
`A. Well, I had a series of positions.
`
`I
`
`started as an electronic design engineer.
`
`Through
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.henderson1ega1serVices.c0m
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`202-220-415 8
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`Page 15 of 87
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`
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`Kramer, Richard A.
`
`September 2, 2014
`
`IPR 2014-00269
`
`16
`
`a series of promotions, I became senior electronic
`
`design engineer,
`
`then hardware manager for a group
`
`called Recorders and Translation Systems, and then
`
`ultimately engineering manager of Residential and
`
`Commercial Metering.
`
`Q.
`
`During your time at Schlumberger, did any
`
`of your work deal with developing subscriber
`
`television solutions and technologies?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Not at Schlumberger.
`
`Did you work anywhere else during your
`
`time at Schlumberger?
`
`A.
`
`From --
`
`MR. ROBERTS: Objection. Vague.
`
`THE WITNESS:
`
`Can you clarify?
`
`BY MR. GOLDBERG:
`
`Q. Were you employed by anyone other than
`
`Schlumberger between 1987 and 1995?
`
`A.
`
`In '95 I was —— took the position, on the
`
`next page, at Scientific—Atlanta. Between the time
`
`of '87 and when I left Schlumberger, which was in
`
`'95, I did not work on subscriber television
`
`systems. But in '95 I did.
`
`Q.
`
`Just to clarify that.
`
`You said between the time in 1987, when
`
`you left Schlumberger, and 1995 you did not work on
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.henderson1ega1services.com
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`202-220-415 8
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`Page16of87
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`
`
`Kramer, Richard A.
`
`September 2, 2014
`
`IPR 2014-00269
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`Schlumberger television systems.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Subscriber.
`
`Subscriber television systems.
`
`You left Babcock & Wilcox in 1987 and then
`
`you started at Schlumberger in 1987, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`
`So --
`
`Yeah.
`
`I was just commenting. You said
`
`1987 to 1995 I didn't work on subscriber television
`
`systems. Or at least that's what I understood you
`
`to say.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Yes.
`
`In '95 I did, because that's when I
`
`started at Scientific—Atlanta.
`
`Q.
`
`During what month in 1995 did you start at
`
`Scientific—Atlanta?
`
`A.
`
`It was early.
`
`I don't remember the exact
`
`month. But it would have been the first quarter,
`
`from my recollection.
`
`Q.
`
`Let's turn to page 5 of your declaration.
`
`In paragraph ll you state, "In my opinion,
`
`the level of ordinary skill in the art needed to
`
`have the capability of understanding the scientific
`
`and engineering principles applicable to the '736
`
`Patent," right?
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.henderson1ega1services.com
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Page 17 of 87
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`Kramer, Richard A.
`
`September 2, 2014
`
`IPR 2014-00269
`
`I'm sorry. Where are you reading that?
`
`Is that an accurate quote?.
`
`At the beginning of paragraph ll,
`
`"The
`
`level of ordinary skill in the art needed to have
`
`the capability of understanding the scientific and
`
`engineering principles applicable to the '736
`
`Patent."
`
`A.
`
`It says, "In my opinion,
`
`the level of
`
`ordinary skill in the art needed to have the
`
`capabilities of understanding the scientific
`
`engineering principles applicable to the '736
`
`Patent."
`
`Q.
`
`Yes.
`
`What are the scientific and engineering
`
`principles applicable to the '736 Patent?
`
`There's video signals.
`
`Anything else?
`
`Television systems.
`
`Anything else?
`
`A.
`
`Q A
`
`.
`
`Q
`
`Let the record reflect that the witness is
`
`looking at the '736 Patent, which is Exhibit 1001.
`
`A.
`
`I believe that captures, without going
`
`into every word in the patent,
`
`the primary
`
`emphasis.
`
`Q.
`
`So the scientific and engineering
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`19
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`principles applicable to the '736 Patent are video
`
`signals and television systems, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`At a high level.
`
`Moving to paragraph 10,
`
`the last sentence.
`
`Could you please read that sentence.
`
`A.
`
`Of paragraph 10, which starts, "I
`
`believe," on page 5; is that correct?
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Paragraph 10 that starts on page 4.
`
`I am sorry. You said the last sentence,
`
`which is on page 5, I believe.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Yes.
`
`So, "Unless otherwise stated, my testimony
`
`below refers to the knowledge of one of ordinary
`
`skill in the interactive television field in 1996,
`
`the year in which the parent patent application of
`
`the '736 was filed."
`
`Q. What do you define as the "interactive
`
`television field"?
`
`A.
`
`The television systems that I mentioned
`
`earlier.
`
`Q. What television systems are those?
`
`A.
`
`The question that you had asked me
`
`previously.
`
`Q.
`
`So the interactive television field is the
`
`field of video signals and television systems?
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`20
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`It relates to television systems.
`
`Q.
`
`Are you aware of any products available in
`
`the interactive television field in 1996?
`
`A.
`
`I was responsible for set—tops in
`
`North America for Scientific-Atlanta.
`
`I had a
`
`number of them.
`
`Q.
`
`Could you please list those systems that
`
`you were responsible for at Scientific—Atlanta.
`
`A.
`
`I was responsible for the product called
`
`the 8600X.
`
`I was responsible for a product called
`
`the 8600.
`
`I interacted with people on the systems
`
`for the development of the Explorer, which I
`
`believe was called Pegasus back then.
`
`I was —— in my tenure at
`
`Scientific-Atlanta, I was also then promoted and
`
`was responsible for the Advanced Video Systems
`
`Group, as far as the position I have listed here,
`
`where I was responsible for the envisionment,
`
`the
`
`development of next-generation products as well.
`
`Q.
`
`Are there any other products that you were
`
`responsible for at Scientific—Atlanta?
`
`A.
`
`Remote controls, I think, for everything.
`
`So that would have been for —— we had a audio
`
`system that was —— for using remote control for
`
`controlling audio, for, like, an audio jukebox.
`
`I
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`IPR 2014-00269
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`was responsible for remote controls for digital
`
`set—top boxes.
`
`I was responsible for remote
`
`controls for the set—top boxes that I was
`
`responsible for.
`
`Q.
`
`And are there any other systems at
`
`Scientific—Atlanta that you were responsible/for?
`
`A.
`
`I'm sure there was. But that's what comes
`
`Q.
`
`Are there any other systems that you were
`
`responsible for at Scientific—Atlanta that you can
`
`recall while sitting here today?
`
`A.
`
`There probably was some older legacy
`
`set—top boxes, and then there were a couple of
`
`products that we had in development that were never
`
`launched.
`
`Q.
`
`Do you recall the names of any of those
`
`legacy products?
`
`A.
`
`Not specifically.
`
`It would have been a
`
`derivative of the 8600 or a predecessor of that.
`
`And then there was new products that we
`
`were developing called the Power X and the Super X.
`
`Q.
`
`The Power X and the Super X were products
`
`that were never actually released?
`
`A.
`
`That's correct. Not to my knowledge.
`
`I
`
`left; so I shouldn't say.
`
`The technology could
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`22
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`have been carried forward.
`
`I'm not sure.
`
`Q.
`
`Were there any other systems that you were
`
`responsible for at Scientific—Atlanta that were
`
`never released?
`
`A.
`
`I'm sure there may have been.
`
`I don't
`
`Q.
`
`Aside from the products you worked on at
`
`Scientific—Atlanta, are you aware of any products
`
`available in the interactive television field in
`
`1996?
`
`A.
`
`We competed against General Instruments,
`
`which was acquired by Motorola, which was acquired
`
`by Google. We competed with Zenith. And I'm sure
`
`there were others, but those were the main ones.
`
`Q.
`
`Do you recall the names of any of the
`
`Zenith --
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`No.
`
`It's been --
`
`—— products in 1996?
`
`It's been a long time.
`
`I don't recall
`
`them by name.
`
`Q.
`
`And do you recall the names of any of the
`
`products at General Instruments in 1996?
`
`A.
`
`It would'have been, I believe, their DCT
`
`product, if.I recall that correctly.
`
`Q.
`
`Are you aware of any other products from
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`General Instruments in 1986?
`
`A.
`
`Their overall system. And Zenith the
`
`same.
`
`It wasn't just the set-top.
`
`It was the
`
`overall systems that were deployed.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`What do you mean by "overall systems"?
`
`They had headends.
`
`They had, you know,
`
`nodes,
`
`transport, scrambling, modulator,
`
`demodulators, their own flavors, their own
`
`techniques of inserting things into video signals,
`
`and the like.
`
`Q.
`
`And do you recall the names of any of
`
`those systems?
`
`A.
`
`It would have been the overall Zenith
`
`system or the overall General Instrument system
`
`that interfaced with those set—top boxes that I
`
`mentioned.
`
`Q.
`
`Aside from the products of
`
`Scientific—Atlanta,
`
`General Instruments, and
`
`Zenith, are you aware of any products available in
`
`the interactive television field in 1996?
`
`MR. ROBERTS: Objection. Vague. Are you
`
`asking him what he's aware of right now, or what he
`
`was aware of in '96?
`
`BY MR. GOLDBERG:
`
`Q.
`
`As of today, are you aware of any products
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`24
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`available in the interactive television field in
`
`1996, other than those of Scientific—Atlanta,
`
`General Instruments, and Zenith?
`
`A.
`
`As far as what lines up exactly with 1996
`
`and what was in my head then, I can't remember.
`
`There certainly was a plethora of
`
`different solutions coming into the marketplace,
`
`both over PCs as well as over cable systems, and
`
`systems overall, and hybrids of systems.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Can you name any of those systems?
`
`I can't name them specific to 1996.
`
`Can you name them any year previous to
`
`It would require me to speculate.
`
`Thank you.
`
`Let's turn to page 9 of your declaration.
`
`I will ask you to quickly review pages 9 to 18.
`
`Just let me know when you're done doing that,
`
`please.
`
`(Witness reviewing document.)
`
`I am.
`
`Thank you.
`
`I have not read every word but skimmed
`
`through it.
`
`Q.
`
`You listed on pages 9 to 18 of your
`
`declaration a number of means-plus—function terms
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`used in the claims of the '736 Patent, right?
`
`A.
`
`I have listed a series of
`
`means-plus—function patents -- or, sorry.
`
`I have listed a series of
`
`means—p1us—function claim terms.
`
`Q.
`
`For the team —— for the term "means for
`
`indicating to the user that an address is available
`
`for extraction from said electronic signal," listed
`
`on page 12, you determined the person having
`
`ordinary skill in the art would understand the
`
`corresponding structure for that term, correct?
`
`Can you repeat the term, please?
`
`Yes.
`
`Did you say on 12 or on 13?
`
`Starting on page 12.
`
`Okay.
`
`A.
`
`Q A
`
`.
`
`Q A
`
`Q.
`
`"Means for indicating to the user that an
`
`address is available for extraction from said
`
`electronic signal."
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Thank you.
`
`You determined a person having ordinary
`
`skill in the art would understand the corresponding
`
`structure for that term, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Can you show me where that's stated at?
`
`Well, on page 13, paragraph 35—b, you
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`26
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`found that the corresponding structure and
`
`specification is "a message or other indicator, or
`
`equivalents," correct?
`
`A.
`
`I indicated that the structure is "a
`
`message or other indicator, or equivalents."
`
`Q.
`
`So,
`
`in doing so, you determined a person
`
`having ordinary skill in the art would understand
`
`the corresponding structure, correct?
`
`A.
`
`In 35 I state, "It is therefore my opinion
`
`that a person of ordinary skill in the art would
`
`understand the broadest reasonable interpretation
`
`of —— of the means for indicating to the user that
`
`an address is available for extraction from said
`
`electronic signal in view of the specification of
`
`file history as follows."
`
`And then I state the structure, which is
`
`"a message or other indicator, or equivalents."
`
`Q.
`
`Did you find anything in the specification
`
`further limiting the corresponding structure of the
`
`term "means for indicating to the user that an
`
`address is available for extraction from said
`
`electronic signal"?
`
`A.
`
`I indicate my methodology in, I believe,
`
`paragraph 34. And I cite what -- what is listed as
`
`Netflix—1001, 3:60 through -63.
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`Q.
`
`So other than column 3,
`
`lines 60 to 63,
`
`you did not find anything in the specification
`
`further limiting the corresponding structure of the
`
`term "means for indicating to the user that an
`
`address is available for extraction from said
`
`electronic signal," correct?
`
`A.
`
`I'm not sure I -— I give my methodology.
`
`I didn't quite follow your question.
`
`I use this methodology, and I read the
`
`specification as a whole.
`
`Q.
`
`Is there any other structure in the
`
`specification beyond that disclosed in column 3,
`
`line 60 to 63,
`
`that corresponds to the means for
`
`indicating to the user that an address is available
`
`for extraction from said electronic signal?
`
`A.
`
`Again, I read the patent as a whole.
`
`I
`
`don't have the whole patent memorized.
`
`From my analysis,
`
`including this, this is
`
`what I felt that one -- an opinion that a person of
`
`ordinary skill in the art would understand the
`
`broadest reasonable interpretation to be.
`
`MR. ROBERTS: Counsel, when you are ready,
`
`can we take a quick bio break?
`
`MR. GOLDBERG: Yes. We can take a break
`
`right now.
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`MR. ROBERTS: Okay.
`
`(Recess taken at 9:43 a.m. back on the
`
`record at 9:51 a.m.)
`
`MR. GOLDBERG: Are you ready to get
`
`started again?
`
`MR. ROBERTS: Yes, sir.
`
`BY MR. GOLDBERG:
`
`Q.
`
`Welcome back, Mr. Kramer.
`
`Thank you.
`
`Q.
`
`Did you discuss anything with counsel for
`
`Netflix during the break?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`There were no words exchanged.
`
`And do you understand that you're still
`
`under oath?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes.
`
`Let's look back again in your declaration
`
`on page 12, and the term "means for indicating to
`
`the user that an address is available for
`
`extraction from said electronic signal."
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`I see that.
`
`In paragraph 34 you referenced column 3,
`
`line 60 to 63 of the '736 Patent, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`I see that I referenced 3, line 60 to 63.
`
`Paragraphs 32 through 35 make up the
`
`section entitled,
`
`"means for indicating to the user
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`29
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`that an address is available for extraction from
`
`said electronic signal," correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`I am sorry. Can you repeat that again?
`
`Paragraphs 32 to 35 make up the section
`
`that you entitled,
`
`"means for indicating to the
`
`user that an address is available for extraction
`
`from said electronic signal," correct?
`
`A.
`
`I'm not sure I would say it that way.
`
`There's a few paragraphs that I list where I
`
`summarize my opinion.
`
`Q.
`
`Are there any other paragraphs in the
`
`section entitled,
`
`"means for indicating to the user
`
`that an address is available for extraction from
`
`said electronic signal"?
`
`A.
`
`There are none other paragraphs in this
`
`section that summarize my findings that I show in
`
`35.
`
`Q.
`
`Does this section of your declaration,
`
`spanning paragraphs 32 to 35,
`
`reference any
`
`portions of the '736 Patent other than column 3,
`
`line 60 to 63?
`
`A.
`
`Again,
`
`this is a summary. And it's --
`
`that's what it is. And it lists 3:60 through -63.
`
`Q.
`
`And it does not reference any other lines
`
`in the '736 patents, correct?
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`30
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`A.
`
`It's a summary.
`
`So -- but in 34 it lists
`
`3:60 through -63. But the whole section is a
`
`summary of reviewing all of the matter.
`
`I understand that. But it's a simple
`
`"no" question.
`
`Are any of the other lines of the '736
`
`Patent beyond column 3,
`
`line 60 to 63,
`
`listed in
`
`paragraphs 32 to 35 of your declaration?
`
`MR. ROBERTS:
`
`I will object. Asked and
`
`answered. Also,
`
`the document speaks for itself.
`
`I
`
`mean,
`
`I'm not sure.
`
`You can answer the question.
`
`THE WITNESS:
`
`I'm not sure how your
`
`question is different than what
`
`I have already
`
`answered.
`
`You have asked me a question, and I
`
`provided feedback that this is based on my analysis
`
`of the patent at issue.
`
`I list some specific lines,
`
`the opinion
`
`was based, as a summary. This doesn't list the
`
`entire patent.
`
`It lists my analysis and the
`
`outcome of that analysis.
`
`BY MR. GOLDBERG:
`
`Q.
`
`You keep mentioning that these paragraphs
`
`are a summary of your opinion. There were no other
`
`lines that you found significant enough to include
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`in the summary in paragraphs 32 to 35, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Again, I feel I have answered that. But
`
`I'm not trying to be difficult.
`
`I -- I mean, we
`
`can read back the record, if you —- if you like.
`
`Q.
`
`We can do that in a second, if we need to.
`
`But this is the first time that I have asked about
`
`whether you deem any other lines significant enough
`
`to warrant including in your summary.
`
`A.
`
`Perhaps the question is —— is the same;
`
`perhaps it's different.
`
`The answer is the same of
`
`what this section represents that I previously
`
`answered.
`
`Q.
`
`So you are refusing to answer the question
`
`as to whether or not,
`
`in "yes" or "no" form, any
`
`other lines beyond column 3,
`
`line 60 to 63 --
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`I am not --
`
`—— were included in the section?
`
`MR. ROBERTS: Object to the form of the
`
`question. Argumentative.
`
`Improper.
`
`The witness can answer the question.
`
`THE WITNESS:
`
`I feel I have answered it.
`
`I'm not refusing to answer it.
`
`I feel I have
`
`answered it sufficiently.
`
`BY MR. GOLDBERG:
`
`Q.
`
`Let's move on to the bottom of page 13,
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`Kramer, Richard A.
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`September 2, 2014
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`IPR 2014-00269
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`32
`
`top of page 14. Will you please read the heading
`
`for us in your declaration.
`
`A.
`
`I assume you mean starting at the bottom
`
`of 13.
`
`"Means for extracting an address associated
`
`with an online information source from an
`
`information signal embedded in said electronic
`
`signal, and for automatically establishing,
`
`in
`
`response to a user—initiated command, a direct link
`
`with the online information source."
`
`Is that what you wanted me to read?
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes.
`
`Thank you.
`
`Thank you.
`
`And did you list in paragraph 41—b the
`
`corresponding structure for this term to be
`
`"hardware and/or software"?
`
`A.
`
`On page 16,
`
`in paragraph 41, I state,
`
`the
`
`"Structure: Hardware and/or software."
`
`Q.
`
`And there was no other structure that you
`
`thought important enough to put in your declaration
`
`with respect to this term?
`
`MR. ROBERTS: Objection. Vague.
`
`THE WITNESS:
`
`I wouldn't characterize it
`
`that way.
`
`In 41 I clearly state, "It is therefore
`
`my opinion that a person of ordinary skill in the
`
`art would understand the broadest reasonable
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`33
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`interpretation of
`
`‘means for extracting an address
`
`associated with an online information source from
`
`an information signal embedded in said electronic
`
`signal, and for automatically establishing,
`
`in
`
`response to a user initiated command, a direct link
`
`with the online information source’
`
`in View of the
`
`specification and the file history to be as
`
`follows."
`
`And then I list the function and then I
`
`list the structure, which is on pages 15 and 16.
`
`And I will also reiterate, "in V
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