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`Exhibit 2022
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`Exhibit 2022
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`______________________________________
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` WAVEMARKET, INC., d/b/a LOCATION )
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`LABS, )
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` Petitioner, )
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` vs. ) No. IPR2014-00199
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` LOCATIONET SYSTEMS, LTD., )
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` Patent Owner. )
`
`______________________________________
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` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF CRAIG ROSENBERG
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` 1 o'clock p.m.
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` December 8, 2014
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` 700 Fifth Avenue
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` Seattle, Washington
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`REPORTED BY:
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`Yvonne A. Southworth, CCR No. 2129.
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`JOB No. 1977186
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`PAGES 1 - 137
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`A P P E A R A N C E S :
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` EXAMINATION INDEX
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`By Mr. Chan 5 - 125
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`By Mr. Cummings 125 - 133
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`By Mr. Chan 133 - 135
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` PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS
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`Exhibit 1001 -- United States Patent 6,771,970
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`Exhibit 1003 -- United States Patent 6,245,039
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`Exhibit 1020 -- Declaration of Craig Rosenberg
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` ***** 12:26:39
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good afternoon. We are 12:41:14
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`going on the record at 12:42 p.m. on December 8th, 12:41:15
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`2014. This is the video recorded deposition of Craig 12:41:19
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`Rosenberg. My name is Lindsay Hitchcock, here with 12:41:23
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`our court reporter, Yvonne Southworth. We are here 12:41:27
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`from Veritext National Deposition and Litigation 12:41:29
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`Services at the request of the patent owner. 12:41:32
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` This deposition is being held at Kelley, 12:41:36
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`Goldfarb, Huck and Roth in Seattle, Washington. The 12:41:38
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`caption of this case is Wavemarket versus LocationNet 12:41:42
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`Systems, cause number IPR2014-00199. 12:41:46
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` Please note that audio and video recording 12:41:54
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`will take place unless all parties agree to go off the 12:41:56
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`record. Microphones are sensitive and may pick up 12:42:00
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`whispers, private conversations, and cellular 12:42:01
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`interference. I'm not authorized to administer an 12:42:04
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`oath. I'm not related to any party in this action, 12:42:07
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`nor am I financially interested in the outcome in any 12:42:09
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`way. 12:42:12
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` May I please have an agreement from all 12:42:13
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`parties that we can proceed? 12:42:15
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` MR. CUMMINGS: Agreed. 12:42:17
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` MR. CHAN: Yes. 12:42:18
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: At this time, will 12:42:19
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`counsel please identify themselves for the record, 12:42:20
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`after which, the court reporter can swear in the 12:42:20
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`witness. 12:42:23
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` MR. CHAN: I'm Andy Chan, representing 12:42:24
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`patent owner, LocationNet Systems. 12:42:26
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` MR. CUMMINGS: And I'm Scott Cummings for 12:42:30
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`the petitioner, Wavemarket. 12:42:32
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` 12:42:35
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`CRAIG ROSENBERG, having been duly sworn, 12:42:35
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` testified as follows: 12:42:35
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` 12:42:35
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` EXAMINATION 12:42:34
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`BY MR. CHAN: 12:42:35
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`Q Good afternoon, Dr. Rosenberg. 12:42:45
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`A Good afternoon. 12:42:46
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`Q Can you please state your name and address 12:42:48
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`for the record? 12:42:49
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`A Craig Rosenberg, 1574 Northeast 190th 12:42:50
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`Street, Shoreline, Washington, 98177. 12:42:54
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`Q Dr. Rosenberg, do you understand that you're 12:43:00
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`testifying today as if you were in a court of law? 12:43:03
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`A I do. 12:43:06
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`Q Have you ever been deposed before? 12:43:06
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`A I have. 12:43:08
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`Q If so, how many times? 12:43:09
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`A Three times previously. 12:43:10
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`Q Can you briefly describe each circumstance. 12:43:11
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`A Yes. One was Silver State versus four 12:43:15
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`square, IPR proceeding. Another one was Silver State 12:43:20
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`versus Garmin, patent litigation. And the third was 12:43:26
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`Select Retrieval versus Overstock.com, also a patent 12:43:34
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`dispute. 12:43:40
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`Q For the Silver State versus Foursquare 12:43:44
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`matter, which party did you represent? 12:43:46
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`A Silver State. 12:43:48
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`Q And was Silver State the patent owner? 12:43:50
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`A Yes. 12:43:53
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`Q And what was the subject matter of that 12:43:54
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`dispute? 12:43:57
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`A Location based services. 12:44:00
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`Q Can you be a little more specific about what 12:44:06
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`technology was involved? 12:44:09
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`A Just GPS tracking. Ability to track goods, 12:44:10
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`assets, and people. 12:44:18
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`Q And what specifically about location based 12:44:32
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`services was that case involving? 12:44:36
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`A I would have to review it more thoroughly to 12:44:43
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`recall the various aspects in general, but it had to 12:44:47
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`do with location tracking of goods, assets, and -- 12:44:54
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`assets and people. 12:44:59
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`Q How long ago was that? 12:45:01
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`A Oh, about a year ago. 12:45:03
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`Q You don't recall specifically what subject 12:45:06
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`matter it involved? 12:45:07
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` MR. CUMMINGS: Objection, form. 12:45:09
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`A No, I don't. 12:45:20
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`Q And in the Silver State versus Garmin 12:45:23
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`manner, can you briefly describe what subject matter 12:45:28
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`that involved? 12:45:33
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`A The same, basely location based services and 12:45:33
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`tracking of assets and people. 12:45:37
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`Q And, again, do you recall what specific 12:45:44
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`technology that involved? 12:45:46
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`A Just at that level of detail that I just 12:45:50
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`described. 12:45:53
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`Q Do you have any further recollection about 12:45:56
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`the specifics of the technology that was involved in 12:45:57
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`each of those matters? 12:46:00
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`A I don't, no. 12:46:02
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`Q And the Silver State versus Garmin matter, 12:46:05
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`how long ago was that? 12:46:10
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`A That was about a year ago. I need to amend 12:46:11
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`my answer. The -- I was confusing the two. The one 12:46:13
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`that was in the Foursquare matter was more recent than 12:46:17
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`that, than a year. The Garmin one was roughly a year 12:46:21
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`ago, perhaps a little more. 12:46:26
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`Q And the Select Retrieval matter that you 12:46:34
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`mentioned, what specific technology did that involve? 12:46:36
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`A It involved web servers in e-commerce. 12:46:39
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`Basically, it involved user interface design for 12:46:44
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`e-commerce websites and being able to selectively -- 12:46:48
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`to iteratively filter content that's displayed from a 12:46:54
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`database based on user action. 12:47:02
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`Q At the end of those three matters that you 12:47:17
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`described, do they relate specifically to location 12:47:20
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`determination technologies? 12:47:24
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`A The third matter, is that what you're 12:47:25
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`asking? The Select Retrieval matter? 12:47:27
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`Q Yes. 12:47:30
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`A No, it did not relate to location based 12:47:30
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`services. 12:47:33
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`Q And the first two, would you regard each of 12:47:33
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`those matters as relating to location determination 12:47:36
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`system technology? 12:47:39
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`A Yes. 12:47:40
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`Q And do you -- does it refresh your 12:47:42
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`recollection as to what the specific subject matter is 12:47:45
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`with regard to the Foursquare and Garmin matters? 12:47:50
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` MR. CUMMINGS: Objection. Asked and 12:47:53
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`answered. 12:47:53
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`A No. I didn't review those cases in 12:47:54
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`preparation for this matter, so I don't have more 12:48:01
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`specifics at this time. 12:48:05
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`Q Do you recall whether or not each of those 12:48:07
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`matters related to user interface subject matter? 12:48:09
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`A I do believe there were user interface 12:48:13
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`elements of them, of both of those cases, yes. 12:48:15
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`Q Do you recall anything else regarding the 12:48:22
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`specific technology relating to both the Foursquare 12:48:24
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`and Garmin matters? 12:48:27
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`A No. 12:48:29
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`Q You just recall that they related to user 12:48:31
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`interface type of technologies, correct? 12:48:34
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` MR. CUMMINGS: Objection, form. 12:48:36
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`A I know that they both involved location 12:48:39
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`based services. I believe they both involved 12:48:43
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`tracking. And I believe some of the detailed elements 12:48:46
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`of the case involved how the user interface was 12:48:51
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`implemented to accomplish those goals. 12:48:54
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`Q I'm sure your counsel has gone over the 12:49:00
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`rules for a deposition. I would like to remind you of 12:49:02
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`a few deposition things. 12:49:05
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`A Please. 12:49:07
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`Q So it's a question and answer process. I 12:49:08
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`would like to ask you some questions, and you get to 12:49:09
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`answer those questions. You're testifying under oath 12:49:12
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`as if you were -- as if you were at trial. If you 12:49:14
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`want to take a break, please let me know. And it's 12:49:18
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`important that we take turns speaking. As you know, 12:49:22
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`we have a court reporter here and a videographer, so 12:49:26
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`it's important to be clear. 12:49:29
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`A Yes. 12:49:30
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`Q Is there any reason why you cannot give 12:49:31
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`truthful and accurate testimony today? 12:49:33
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`A No. 12:49:35
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`Q Did you do anything to prepare for your 12:49:35
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`deposition today? 12:49:37
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`A Yes. 12:49:40
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`Q Can you tell me what you did? 12:49:41
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` MR. CUMMINGS: Caution the witness not to 12:49:45
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`reveal the substance of any attorney client 12:49:46
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`conversations. 12:49:48
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`A I reviewed my declaration. I reviewed the 12:49:51
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`'970 Patent. I reviewed the Elliott patent. I 12:49:56
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`reviewed the petition. And I spoke with Scott 12:50:02
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`Cummings. 12:50:13
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`Q Is that all? 12:50:21
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`A Yes. 12:50:27
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`Q Did you meet with your counsel in 12:50:29
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`preparation for your deposition today? 12:50:33
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`A Yes. 12:50:35
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`Q When did that meeting take place? 12:50:36
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`A Yesterday. 12:50:38
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`Q And how long did that meeting last? 12:50:39
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`A Approximately three hours. 12:50:42
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`Q Who else was present at that meeting? 12:50:47
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`A Nobody else. 12:50:50
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`Q Just Scott Cummings was -- 12:50:52
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`A Yes, yes. Oh, yes. Of course. 12:50:53
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`Q I would like to introduce Exhibits 12:51:16
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`previously marked for the proceeding as Exhibit 1001. 12:51:19
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`It's the patent, the '970 Patent. 12:51:24
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` And while I'm at it, I'll also mark Exhibit 12:51:34
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`1003, it's the Elliott patent, Patent Number 12:51:38
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`6,243,039. And also I would like to introduce Exhibit 12:51:43
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`1020, declaration of Craig Rosenberg, Ph.D. in support 12:52:04
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`of petitioner's reply. 12:52:24
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` Mr. Rosenberg, please take a look at Exhibit 12:52:27
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`1001, US Patent Number 6,771,970. Do you recognize 12:52:31
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`Exhibit 1001? 12:52:42
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`A I do. 12:52:45
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`Q And what is it? 12:52:45
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`A It is a patent from Dan. 12:52:48
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`Q It's the '970 Patent? 12:52:52
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`A The '970 Patent, yes. 12:52:54
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`Q Did you consider the entirety of the '970 12:52:55
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`Patent in forming your opinions in this matter? 12:52:58
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`A I did. 12:53:00
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`Q This is the patent that's being challenged 12:53:05
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`in this matter, is that right? 12:53:07
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`A That is correct. 12:53:10
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`Q And briefly turn to Exhibit 1003. Do you 12:53:10
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`recognize Exhibit 1003? 12:53:17
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`A I do. 12:53:20
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`Q What is it? 12:53:21
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`A This is the '039 Patent. 12:53:22
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`Q Did you consider the entirety of the '039 12:53:25
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`Patent in forming your opinions in this matter? 12:53:27
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`A Yes. 12:53:29
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`Q This is the alleged prior art being asserted 12:53:30
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`in this matter, correct? 12:53:33
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`A Correct. 12:53:34
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`Q And if you briefly turn to Exhibit 1020. 12:53:35
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`A Yes. 12:53:41
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`Q Do you recognize Exhibit 1020? 12:53:41
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`A I do, yes. 12:53:44
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`Q That's the declaration you submitted in this 12:53:45
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`matter, correct? 12:53:47
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`A That is correct. 12:53:48
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`Q Exhibit 1020 contains your opinion in this 12:53:50
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`matter regarding the '970 Patent and the '039 Patent, 12:53:52
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`correct? 12:53:58
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`A That is correct. 12:53:58
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`Q Did you personally draft your declaration? 12:53:59
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`A I was in -- intimately involved with the 12:54:03
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`drafting of this declaration, and all the opinions in 12:54:08
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`this declaration are my opinions. 12:54:13
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`Q Can you briefly describe to me the 12:54:14
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`circumstances by which it was created? 12:54:17
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` MR. CUMMINGS: Again, caution the witness 12:54:24
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`not to reveal the substance of any attorney client 12:54:25
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`communications. 12:54:28
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`A Yes. I had various telephone meetings with 12:54:30
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`Scott Cummings about the case in general. I was sent 12:54:34
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`the '970 Patent and '039 Patent in the petition and a 12:54:40
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`few other documents that are listed in paragraph two 12:54:51
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`of my declaration. And I created this declaration to 12:54:53
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`reflect my opinions that were in the case, my opinions 12:55:15
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`surrounding this case. 12:55:21
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`Q Can you tell me when you were engaged in 12:55:23
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`this matter? 12:55:26
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`A It was relatively recently. I would say 12:55:30
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`within the last two or three months. 12:55:33
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`Q And can you describe briefly how that 12:55:41
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`occurred? 12:55:44
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`A I am working through an expert witness 12:55:49
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`agency, if you will, that finds expert witnesses for 12:55:53
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`attorneys. And they contacted me about a potential 12:56:00
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`case, which was this case. They asked if I had any 12:56:04
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`conflicts. They asked if the subject matter was in my 12:56:07
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`area of expertise. I informed them that I did not 12:56:13
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`have any conflicts, and that the subject matter was 12:56:17
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`well within my area of expertise. Relayed that back 12:56:20
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`to the patent firm -- I'm sorry -- the agency that 12:56:25
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`finds experts for attorneys. They set up an interview 12:56:29
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`with Scott Cummings and myself. And that's how the 12:56:34
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`engagement started. 12:56:40
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`Q Do you know of others who have helped you in 12:56:49
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`drafting your deposition -- or declaration? Sorry. 12:56:53
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`A Can you rephrase the question? I'm not sure 12:56:56
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`I understand. 12:56:58
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`Q Are there anybody -- is there anybody who 12:56:59
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`helped you in drafting your declaration? 12:57:01
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`A The -- well, Scott Cummings was involved 12:57:09
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`with many discussions surrounding the declaration. 12:57:19
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`But, again, all of the opinions in this declaration 12:57:26
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`are mine. And I stand by every -- every word and 12:57:33
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`every sentence. They truly reflect my thoughts on 12:57:37
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`this case. 12:57:40
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Mr. Rosenberg, would you 12:58:07
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`mind straightening the microphone? It's brushing 12:58:09
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`against something. Thank you. 12:58:13
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` THE WITNESS: You bet. 12:58:15
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`Q Is there anybody else you communicated with 12:58:19
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`regarding your declaration? 12:58:22
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`A Not that I recall. Not that I recall, no. 12:58:27
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`Q You only communicated with Scott Cummings 12:58:37
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`regarding your declaration, correct? 12:58:39
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`A Yes. I hesitate just for a moment, because 12:58:40
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`I am working on another case that is involving several 12:58:43
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`lawyers who are working on the case, but I don't 12:58:48
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`believe that was the case -- I believe Scott Cummings 12:58:49
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`is the only attorney that I've communicated with 12:58:53
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`regarding this case. 12:58:56
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`Q Okay. Take a look at Exhibit 1020, your 12:59:02
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`declaration. 12:59:04
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`A Yes. 12:59:05
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`Q Let's turn to page 7 of your declaration. 12:59:07
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`A I'm looking at 1020. 12:59:18
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`Q Page 7. 12:59:20
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`A All right. 12:59:21
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`Q On paragraph 13, direct your attention to 12:59:30
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`paragraph 13 there. And you state there, for example, 12:59:32
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`as noted on page 30 of the petition, Elliott disclosed 12:59:36
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`as, quote, a web server with its associated files 12:59:40
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`provides graphical maps capable of showing the current 12:59:44
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`and historical locations of the device, end quote. Do 12:59:47
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`you see that? 12:59:50
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`A I do see that. 12:59:50
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`Q Now, you put bold and italics on the partial 12:59:52
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`phrase, with its associated files provides graphical 12:59:57
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`maps. Why did you do that? 13:00:01
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`A I was pointing out that, to me, that shows 13:00:03
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`that there is a database that the associated files 13:00:08
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`includes map engine and a map database that's helping 13:00:13
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`to provide its functionality, and I wanted to add 13:00:19
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`emphasis to that section. 13:00:24
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`Q Now, the statement does not mention the term 13:00:25
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`database, correct? 13:00:29
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`A No. 13:00:30
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`Q Right? 13:00:34
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`A Correct. Correct. It does not mention 13:00:35
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`database. 13:00:37
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`Q I mean, it simply refers to a web server 13:00:38
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`with its associated files, correct? 13:00:42
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`A Yes, but that has meaning to me. 13:00:45
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`Q I understand, but it simply refers to a web 13:00:47
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`server with its associated files, correct? 13:00:50
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`A It does. 13:00:52
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`Q And you go on to state in paragraph 13, you 13:00:54
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`see that where it says, it is abundantly clear to one 13:00:58
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`of ordinary skill in the art that at least the above 13:01:01
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`mentioned associated files, quote, unquote, cited in 13:01:04
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`the petition that, according to the express language 13:01:08
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`quoted above include, quote, unquote, graphical maps, 13:01:12
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`satisfies the map database element recited in claim 18 13:01:19
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`of the '970 Patent. Do you see that? 13:01:23
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`A I do see that, yes. 13:01:26
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`Q And what do you mean when you state, at 13:01:27
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`least the above mentioned associated files? 13:01:29
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`A That there is more evidence within Elliott 13:01:35
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`that discloses the map database and a map engine. 13:01:43
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`Q And what are you referring to? 13:01:48
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`A Well, there's -- there's many other passages 13:01:52
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`that I point out in my declaration that speak to 13:01:56
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`disclosure of a map database and map engine, so I'm 13:02:03
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`referring to those other disclosures. 13:02:07
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`Q With respect to this phrase, the term -- the 13:02:14
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`phrase that we're talking about, a web server with its 13:02:17
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`associated files provides graphical maps, do you see 13:02:19
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`that? 13:02:23
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` MR. CUMMINGS: Objection, form. 13:02:23
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`Q Do you see that? 13:02:27
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`A I do see that, yes. 13:02:27
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`Q And then you have -- you opine that -- in 13:02:28
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`this statement, you opine that at least the above 13:02:33
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`mentioned associated files satisfies the map database 13:02:36
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`element. Correct? 13:02:38
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`A Yes, I see that. 13:02:49
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`Q So my question was with respect to the map 13:02:50
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`database element. You said -- or you stated that, at 13:02:55
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`least the above mentioned associated files? 13:02:56
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`A Yes. 13:03:00
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`Q My question to you is, what other disclosure 13:03:01
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`is there that you're referring to that meets the map 13:03:03
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`database element? 13:03:06
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` MR. CUMMINGS: Objection. Asked and 13:03:07
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`answered. 13:03:08
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`A This statement that -- this sentence from 13:03:12
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`Elliott and the portion that I emphasized talks about 13:03:16
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`providing graphical maps. It talks about with its 13:03:22
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`associated files. To provide graphical maps implies 13:03:29
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`to me, very strongly -- more than implies it. It says 13:03:36
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`to me that there's a map database and a map engine. 13:03:40
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`And there's other evidence as well, which I'm sure 13:03:50
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`we'll speak about. 13:03:54
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`Q Okay. Is your opinion that associated files 13:03:56
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`alone meets the map database limitation? 13:04:01
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`A Are you -- if you clarify the question, 13:04:07
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`please. 13:04:09
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`Q Well, you quoted, associated files in 13:04:10
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`quotations. Do you see that? 13:04:14
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`A I do, yes. 13:04:16
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`Q Is it your opinion that associated files, 13:04:17
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`quote, unquote, meets the map database limitation? 13:04:18
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`A I think it's one of several pieces of 13:04:23
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`elements of Elliott disclosing a map database. 13:04:31
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`Q And what are the associated files? 13:04:35
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`A Source code, programs, executables. All of 13:04:42
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`the additional files that would be needed to 13:04:50
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`accomplish the functionality that's described in 13:04:59
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`Elliott. 13:05:02
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`Q And where in Elliott does it describe source 13:05:12
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`code, programs, executables? 13:05:16
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`A I was just giving examples of what 13:05:40
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`possibilities of files are. I'm not saying that there 13:05:43
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`needs to be an explicit disclosure -- I mean, the 13:05:49
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`disputed portion of Claim 18 doesn't require that 13:05:52
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`Elliott disclose that there's source code. It seems 13:05:57
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`completely immaterial that they disclose there being 13:06:00
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`executable or source code. It just needs to disclose 13:06:05
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`that there is a map database and a map engine. And 13:06:09
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`that's what I'm talking about here.
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