lPR20 14-00 l7l-lPR20 14-00 177; lPR20 14-00237-!PR20 14-00238
`
`January 8, 2014 Teleconference
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`1
`
`RPX CORPORATION
`Pe titione r,
`
`v .
`VIRNETX INC.
`Patent Owne r .
`
`RPX CORPORAT ION
`Peti tione r,
`
`v.
`VI RNETX INC .
`Patent Owner .
`
`RPX CORPORAT ION
`Pe ti tioner,
`
`v .
`VI RNETX INC .
`Patent Owner .
`
`RPX CORPORATION
`Petitioner ,
`
`v.
`VI RNETX INC.
`Patent Owner .
`
`RPX CORPORATION
`Petit i oner ,
`
`v .
`VIRNETX I NC.
`Patent Owner .
`
`Cas e I PR2014 -00171
`Patent 6 , 502, 135
`
`Case IPR2 014-00 172
`Patent 6 , 502,135
`
`Case I PR2014-001 73
`Patent 7 ,490,151
`
`Case IPR2014-00 1 74
`Patent 7,921 , 211
`
`Case IPR2014 -0 0175
`Patent 7,921,211
`
`(Caption continues on next page)
`
`Wedn esday , January 8 , 2014
`
`2: 1 5 p.m . EST
`
`Te leconfe rence befo re the Patent Trial and Appeal Board
`RPX Corporation Exhibit 1075
`RPX Corporation v. VirnetX, Inc. et al.
`Case IPR2014-00173
`
`202-220-4158
`
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`
`
`
`January 8, 2014 Teleconference
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`1
`
`RPX CORPORATION
`Pe titione r,
`
`v .
`VIRNETX INC.
`Patent Owne r .
`
`RPX CORPORAT ION
`Peti tione r,
`
`v.
`VI RNETX INC .
`Patent Owner .
`
`RPX CORPORAT ION
`Pe ti tioner,
`
`v .
`VI RNETX INC .
`Patent Owner .
`
`RPX CORPORATION
`Petitioner ,
`
`v.
`VI RNETX INC.
`Patent Owner .
`
`RPX CORPORATION
`Petit i oner ,
`
`v .
`VIRNETX I NC.
`Patent Owner .
`
`Cas e I PR2014 -00171
`Patent 6 , 502, 135
`
`Case IPR2 014-00 172
`Patent 6 , 502,135
`
`Case I PR2014-001 73
`Patent 7 ,490,151
`
`Case IPR2014-00 1 74
`Patent 7,921 , 211
`
`Case IPR2014 -0 0175
`Patent 7,921,211
`
`(Caption continues on next page)
`
`Wedn esday , January 8 , 2014
`
`2: 1 5 p.m . EST
`
`Te leconfe rence befo re the Patent Trial and Appeal Board
`RPX Corporation Exhibit 1075
`RPX Corporation v. VirnetX, Inc. et al.
`Case IPR2014-00173
`
`202-220-4158
`
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`
`
`
`~, ...... -----
`
`IJ>R10l4-00 l7l -lPR201 4-00 l77; lPR2014-00237-IPR2014-00238
`
`January 8, 2014 Teleconference
`
`2
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
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`6
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`7
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`18
`
`(Continued caption:)
`
`RPX CORPORATION
`Pe titioner ,
`
`v .
`VIRNETX I NC .
`Patent Owne r.
`
`RPX CORPORATION
`Pe t itione r ,
`
`v .
`VIRNETX INC.
`Patent Owne r.
`
`APPLE I NC .
`Petitioner ,
`
`v .
`VIRNETX INC. AND SCIENCE
`APPLICATION INTERNATIONAL
`CORPORATION
`Patent Owner .
`
`APPLE INC.
`Pet ition e r,
`
`v .
`VIRNETX I NC . AND SCIENCE
`APPLICAT I ON INTERNATIONAL
`CORPORATION
`Patent Owne r.
`
`Cas e IPR2014 - 00 17 6
`Patent 7,418,504
`
`Case IPR20 1 4 - 00 177
`Patent 7 , 418 ,504
`
`Inte r Partes Revi ew
`No. I PR2014 - 00237
`
`Patent 8,504 , 697
`
`Inter Partes Review
`No . IPR2014 - 00238
`
`Patent 8,504,697
`
`Wedne s day , January 8 , 201 4
`2:15p . m. EST
`
`Te leconference before the Patent Trial and Appeal
`
`19
`
`Boa r d , the proceedi ngs being recorded stenographical ly
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`by Jonath an Wonne l l , a Registe r e d Prof essional Cou rt
`
`Reporte r c(NCRA #8 35577 ) and No t ary Public of . tn~ State
`
`of Minnesota, and transcribed under his direction .
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`
`www.Jwndersonlegalservices.com ..
`
`
`
`IPR2014-00171-IPR2014-00177; IPR20!4-00237-IPR2014-00238
`
`January 8, 2014 Teleconference
`
`A P P E A R A N C E S
`
`0 F
`
`C 0 U N S E 1
`
`(All participants appearing by phone)
`
`3
`
`On beha lf of the Patent Trial and Appeal
`
`Boa r d:
`
`MICHAEL P. TIERNEY, ESQ., Administrative
`
`Pa ten t Judge
`
`STEVEN C. SIU , ESQ., Adminis trative Law
`
`J udge
`
`KARL D. EASTHOM, ESQ . , Administrative Law
`
`Judge
`
`On behalf of RPX Corporation:
`
`OLIVER R. ASHE, JR ., ESQ .
`
`Ashe P.C.
`
`11440 Isaac Newton Square North , Suite
`
`210
`
`Reston, Virginia 20190
`
`(703) 46 7- 900 1
`
`oashe@ashepc. com
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`. · \i.
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`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`.. ;~,
`
`
`
`IPR10 14-00 171-IPR10 14-00 177; IPR20 14-00237-IPR20 14-00238
`
`January 8, 2014 Teleconference
`
`A P P E A R A N C E S
`
`(Cont 'd)
`
`4
`
`On behal f of Virnetx Inc.:
`
`JOSEPH E. PALYS, ESQ.
`
`ELLIOT C. COOK, ESQ.
`
`Finnegan, Henderson, Farabow, Garrett &
`
`Dunner, LLP
`
`Two Freedom Square
`
`11955 Freedom Drive
`
`Rest on , Virginia 20190 -5675
`
`(571) 203- 2700
`
`joseph .pa lys@f innegan .com
`
`elliot.cook@finnegan.com
`
`-- and
`
`NAVE EN MODI, ESQ.
`
`Finnegan, Hend e rs on , Farabow, Garrett &
`
`Dunner , LLP
`
`901 New York Avenue, N.W .
`
`Washington , D. C. 20005
`
`(202} 408-4000
`
`naveen .modi@ finneg an.com
`
`-- and --
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`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`IPR20 14-00171-II'R2014-00177; IPR2014-00237- li'R2014-00238
`
`January R, 20 I 4 Teleconlerencc
`
`A P P E A R A N C E S
`
`(Cont'd )
`
`5
`
`On behalf o f Virnetx In c .
`
`(Con t'd )
`
`JAMES D. STEIN, ESQ.
`
`Finnegan , Henderson, Farabow, Garrett &
`
`Dunner, LLP
`
`3500 SunTrust Pla za
`
`303 Peachtree Street , NW
`
`Atlan ta, Georgia 30308 - 3263
`
`(404) 653 - 6400
`
`j ames . s t e in@fi nnegan.com
`
`On b eha l f of Appl e Comput ers:
`
`JEFFREY P. KUSHAN, ESQ .
`
`JOSEPH A. MICALLEF, ESQ.
`
`Sidley, Aust in , Brown & Wood
`
`1 501 K Street , N.W,
`
`Sui te 600
`
`Washington, D. C . 20005
`
`(202) 736-8000
`
`jkushan@sid ley. com
`
`jmi cal l ef@ sidley . com
`
`-- and --
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`202-220-4 I 58
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`www.hendersonlegalscrvices.com
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`
`
`
`IPR20 14-00171-IPR20 14-00 177; IPR20 14-00237-IPR20 14-00238
`
`January 8, 2014 T eleconterence
`
`A P P E A R A N C E S
`
`(Cont ' d)
`
`On behalf o f Appl e Computers (Cont'd)
`
`DAV ID E. MELAUGH, ESQ.
`
`App l e I nc.
`
`1 Infinite Loop
`
`Cupertino, Califo rni a 95014
`
`(408) 974-076 1
`
`ALSO PRESENT :
`
`PHOEBE NGUYEN , Legal Administ ra t o r,
`
`Ashe , P. C.
`
`JONATHAN WONNELL, Cou r t Rep orte r
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`202-220-4158
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`www .henderson legalservices.com
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`
`
`
`IPR20 14-00 171 -IPR2014-00177; IPR20 14-00237-IPR2014-00238
`
`January 8, 20 14 Teleconterence
`
`P R 0 C E E D I N G S
`
`7
`
`(2: 15 p. m. EST}
`
`JU DGE TIERNEY:
`
`Judge Tierne y o n t he
`
`l i ne.
`
`Is Judge Siu on t he l i ne?
`
`JU DGE SIU: Yes .
`
`I ' m o n t he li ne .
`
`J UDGE TIERNEY : Wel come t o the ca l l .
`
`I
`
`h ave Judge Easthom in my of fi ce so t h e pane l is al l
`
`set.
`
`I ' m going t o start o ff with a bri ef ro ll c all
`
`and make s u re t hat we have th e par t ies on t he l i ne ,
`
`keeping in mi nd tha t we h ave
`
`in my unders t a ndi ng
`
`we h ave RPX representatives , we ' re go ing to hav e
`
`Apple repr esenta tives a nd Virnetx r e p r esent atives .
`
`I ' m going to star t with RPX .
`
`Is t h e r e a
`
`r epresentat ive f r om RPX on t h e phone t oday?
`
`MR . ASHE : Yes . Th i s
`
`t h e Ol ive r Ashe .
`
`J UDGE TIERN EY: Wel come to the ca ll.
`
`MR . AS HE : Than k you .
`
`JUDGE TIERNEY :
`
`I s
`
`t here a n yone e l s e
`
`wi t h you today?
`
`MR . ASHE: My ass i stant , Phoebe Ng u yen.
`
`Ot her t han that , n o .
`
`JUDGE TIERNEY: Thank you . And then
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`202-220-4 158
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`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`
`
`
`IPR2014-00J 71 -IPR201 4-001 77; IPR2014-00237-IPR2014-00238
`
`.January 8, 2014 Teleconference
`
`l we'll go -- the next one, the next petitioner 1 wa s
`
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`Appl e . Do we have a repres e n t at i v e from Apple
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`today?
`
`MR. KUSHAN: Yes, Your Honor. Thi s
`
`i s
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`Jeff Kushan f r om Sidley Aus tin.
`
`I have with me Joe
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`6 Micalle f, my pa rtner, a nd I al so believe David
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`Me l augh from Appl e i s on t he phone .
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`JUDGE TIERNEY: What was the last name ?
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`MR . KUSHAN: Me laugh, M-e-1-a-u -g-h.
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`JUDGE TIERNEY: And then l a s t ly but not
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`least , Virnetx. Do we have a repres en tat i ve from
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`Vi rnetx h ere today?
`
`MR. PALYS: Yes , Your Honor .
`
`It ' s
`
`Joseph Pa lys with Finnegan Hender so n f or Virnetx.
`
`And with me is Naveen Modi, Ell iott Cook and James
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`Stein ca lling in from At l.a nta.
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`J UDGE TIERNEY: Welc ome to the phone
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`confere nce cal l today. For pu rposes of order g oing
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`on fo l lowing the ca l l, I 'm just go ing to put o n th e
`
`fi rst named p e r son that we had today rather t han
`
`have a compl ete l i st. But if you need a complete
`
`list l e t me know right now .
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`
`www.hcndersonlegalserviccs.com
`
`
`
`IPR10 14-00171 -IPR2014-00 177; IPR2014-00137-IPR2014-00238
`
`January S, 2014 Teleconference
`
`1
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`Not hearing any o bjection we 'll just go
`
`ahead and we ' ll have Mr. Ashe , Kush an and Pa l ys
`
`listed as represe ntatives fo r today along wit h
`
`othe r s and we'l l just have ot h ers.
`
`Starti ng off I d id as k f o r this ca l l
`
`6 with the p anel . We wanted t o tal k about
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`the
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`scheduli ng. We did receive a couple e-mai l s
`
`r ecently from the partie s suggesti ng we broaden o u t
`
`t h e pu r p ose o f the cal l.
`
`The f irst p oint, though ,
`
`I would l ike
`
`to - -
`
`MR. PALYS : Your Honor, I rea l ly
`
`apol og i ze t o int e r rup t you.
`
`I just want to let you
`
`know tha t we have a court r eporter o n.
`
`I don ' t
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`know if he' s iden ti f i ed hims e l f .
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`J UDGF: TTF.RNEY: Who
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`i s speaking, p l ease?
`
`MR . PALYS : Your Honor, this i s Joseph
`
`Palys. And I apologize f or interrupting you .
`
`I
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`j ust wante d to make s ure you ' re aware of that .
`
`JUDGE TIERNEY:
`
`I was n ot aware . And i n
`
`the futu r e could you please a l ert
`
`t he pane l before
`
`we have the call ?
`
`202-220-4 158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`ll'R20 14-00 171 -ll'R20 14-00 177; IPR20 14-00237-IPR20 14-00233
`
`January 8, 20 14 Teleconferenct
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`MR. PALYS : Yes , si r.
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`I apologi ze.
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`J UDGE TIERNEY: Not a probl em.
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`I t makes
`
`not e taking a li ttle bit easier, as you probab ly
`
`understan d .
`
`MR . PALYS:
`
`I under stand, si r. Sorry .
`
`JUDGE TIERNEY :
`
`So since we do have a
`
`court reporter you'r e aware we would want to h ave a
`
`copy o f the transcript file d as an e xhibit?
`
`MR. PALYS: Mm-hmm. Yes .
`
`JUDGE TIERNEY: Okay. As long as we are
`
`aware of tha L
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`MR. ASHE: Your Honor, t his is Oliver
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`13 Ashe. To the extent that we cover a ny mat eria l
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`that might be under the pro t ective order or
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`relating to seal ed ma teria l s ,
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`I think i t would be
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`appropriate for that exhibit t o also be sub je ct to
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`th at protective o r der.
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`JUDGE TIERNEY: Do we have any
`
`objecti on?
`
`MR. PALYS: No, Your Honor.
`
`JUDGE TIERNEY: Okay. Not hearing any
`
`object i on , Mr. Palys, did you ale rt t he ot her
`
`202-220-4158
`
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`
`
`
`IPR2014-0017 1-IPR20 14-00177; IPR2014-00237-IPR2014-00238
`
`January 8, 2014 Teleconference
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`par ties t ha t you were going t o have a court
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`repo r t e r
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`t oday?
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`MR . PALYS : Ye s .
`
`J UDGE TI ERNEY: Okay.
`
`I ass ume I ' m
`
`go ing to RPX and a repr es e nta t ive from App l e . Any
`
`objectio ns ?
`
`MR . ASHE: Not fr om RPX , You r Hon or .
`
`MR. KUSHAN: Not fr om Apple .
`
`JU DGE T I ERNEY : Okay.
`
`I juste d wan t
`
`t o
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`10
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`make sure s ince we do have -- I do r e call t h e
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`mot ion to sea l bein g brought
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`i n .
`
`Okay .
`
`So we will proceed with t h e
`
`unde r sta nd i ng t hat the tr ansc ript t o th e e xte nt o f
`
`if i t 's ne eded t o be fil ed tha t it wil l be f ile d a s
`
`a n exhibit. Provis i o na ll y h av e
`
`i t unde r seal just
`
`in c ase we cove r anything. At
`
`t he e nd o f the ca ll
`
`I wo uld re comme nd t h a t
`
`t he r epresenta t i ves f rom RPX
`
`and Apple chime i n ,
`
`i f they hear an yth ing t h at t h e y
`
`b e l i eve shou l d be under sea l a l ert u s so t h at we
`
`don ' t acc i denta l l y have some t hin g g o i n g into a
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`transcr ipt that i s ma rked as publi c when i t should
`
`act u a lly be ma r ke d as p ri vate .
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
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`www.hcndersonlegalservices.com
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`JPR2014-00171-IPR20 14-00 177; JPR20 l4-00237-IPR20 14-00238
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`January 8, 2014 T cleconference
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`Any comme nts on that b e fore I begi n?
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`Going t o RPX?
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`MR . ASHE: No . We'r e fine with t hat,
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`Your Hono r.
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`J UDGE TIERNEY: Any f r om Apple?
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`MR . KUSHAN: No . We ' re f i ne wi th that
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`procedure.
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`JUDGE TIERNEY : Virnetx ?
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`MR. PALYS: No , Your Honor .
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`J UDGE TIERNEY : Okay .
`
`So t he first
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`qu estion we h ad toda y ,
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`I 'm go i ng t o s ta rt off with
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`the quest i on that was posed o r i g ina l l y f or the
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`confe r ence cal l , whi c h was sch edu ling . My
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`u nders t a nd in g
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`I 'm loo kin g at the reco r d -- was
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`RPX had fi led the i r petit i ons Novembe r 20th and
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`then App le ha d f iled petition s to patents whi ch
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`c l aimed benefit o f certain p a tents that were
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`c ha l lenged in the RPX petiti on s .
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`Apple fi l i ngs we r e filed on December 6th
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`of 2013 . And t he qu es tion we were wan ting t o p ose
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`i s s h ould we p ut
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`them on a -- the same or a s imila r
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`schedul e goi ng f orward . And I wanted to pose t hat
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`202-220-4158
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`www.hendcrsonlegalserviccs.corn
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`IPR20 14-00 171-IPR20 14-00 177; li'R20 14-00237-li'R20 14-00238
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`.lanu31y 8, 2014 Teleconference
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`quest i on to the parties.
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`I will start with Vi r netx .
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`If you could
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`pl e ase gi v e us your thoughts on this .
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`MR. PALYS : Yes, Your Hono r. Thank you.
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`This i s Jo seph Palys f or Virnetx. The issue
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`regarding the schedule act ual l y dovetails into some
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`of the issues t hat we ra ised in our e-mai l
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`regarding the real part y in interest and p rivity .
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`We think that these issue s actually af fect t he
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`schedule in some form.
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`And I was wonde r ing if, some l eeway with
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`the board, if we ca n get from a high level to
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`e xpl ain why tha t would affect that schedule I can
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`get int o that .
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`JUDGE TIERNEY: Actua l ly, t he question
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`I ' vP. posed today is simply should they be on the
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`same schedule . And I unde rstand you ' re going to
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`want to go and tell us what the schedul e should be ,
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`but from a high l eve l point v i ew, do you want to be
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`on the same schedul e o r not?
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`MR. PALYS: Okay . Sure, Your Honor .
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`22 Wi th respe ct to the I PRs filed by Appl e and the
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`202-220-4158
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`www.hendersonlegalsel\'ices.com
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`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
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`fi'R2014-00 I 71-IPR2014-00 177; IPR2014-00237-IPR2014-00238
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`Janua1y 8, 2014 Teleconfen:ncc
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`IPRs fi le d by RPX, we don' t
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`t hink t hat t hey s h ould
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`be on t he same schedule. They have different
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`notice of fil ing dates . And, as you know, we have
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`nine IPR matter s that we ' re dealing with.
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`So between those two sets of matters,
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`it ' s Vi r netx ' s position tha t they should not be on
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`the same schedule .
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`JUDGE TIERNEY: And the rat ionale just
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`being because they were filed d if ferent dates?
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`MR. PALYS : They are dif fer ent patents ,
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`Your Honor. They address different issues .
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`They -- yes, one of t h e o th er reasons, they were
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`filed on d iffe rent dat es. They were f iled by a
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`different party. And we think that these i ss ues
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`coupled with -- a lot o f it is some of the
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`varianr.P.s hP.twe.en what these patents, which have
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`not been subject to a ny previous IPRs, were go ing
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`to require different i ssues.
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`Some of them there may be some overlap
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`ther e, Your Honor , but we don ' t th i nk that warrants
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`that they be on the same sch edul e .
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`JUDGE TIE RNEY: Go into overlap .
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`202-220-4158
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`IPR1014-00171-II'R20 14-00 177; IPR20 14-00237-IPR2014-00238
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`January 8, 20 14 Teleconference
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`*
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`*
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`*
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`*
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`*
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`(At this point the court r eporter ' s
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`phone dropped off the conference ca ll. With the
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`Judge's permission the result ing 40 seconds of
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`mi ssing p r oceedings a re omitted from t h e
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`transc ript.)
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`*
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`*
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`*
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`*
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`*
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`JUDGE TIERNEY:
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`amount of overlap
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`between the two proceedin gs . For exampl e, c laim
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`construct ions , spec ifications, understanding what
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`they mean, one of ordinary skill i n the art, et
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`cetera, et cetera.
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`MR. PALYS: Yes. We ll, th ere cer ta inly
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`i s over l ap . We're not suggesting that there isn't
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`any overlap as far as they rely on the same
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`specifications from ~ h A s~mA fAmi l y . But there are
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`different claims, c l aim terms. We think that may
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`require -- int roduce different claim constructions
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`that are not common to the other matter.
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`That ' s jus t to begin with.
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`I apologize.
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`I'm looking through my notes right now , You r Honor .
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`So - -
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`202-220-41 58
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`www.hendcrsonlegalservices.com
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`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
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`IPR2014-00 17 1 -IPR20 14-001 77; II'R2014-00237-IPR201 4-00238
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`January 8, 20 I 4 T elccontcrence
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`JUDGE TIERNEY:
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`I ' m j ust cur i ous. For
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`consistency p u rposes , wouldn' t you s a y that for
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`wh e re the re ar e common terms being used in the
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`c l aims, since they are going back t hrough common
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`specification s for bene f it, that we would want to
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`be cons istent in our dec i s i ons to institute or to
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`not insti tute?
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`MR. PALYS : Yeah, go ahead . My partner,
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`Naveen Modi , wants t o chime in , Your Honor.
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`10
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`MR . MODI : Your Honor , th is i s Navee n
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`11 Modi. Ma ybe I can address some of your ques tions .
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`I gene r a l ly agree with you that obviously to t h e
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`extent c l aim te r ms are t he same across these
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`patents they should be construed cons i stently .
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`I
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`guess what we're trying t o get at is that we don 't
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`disagrP.P. wi t.h y()ll tha t there ' s o v erlap.
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`We just thin k, you kno w,
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`t here are
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`',
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`obvious l y nine pending IPRs right now and we h ave
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`seven with RPX and two naming Apple .
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`Just there ' s
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`a lot of volume, you know , a lot of material here.
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`And I think what we ' re t rying to ge t
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`i s, t he
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`issues , yes ,
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`they do over l ap , but they are
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`202-220-41 58
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`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
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`www.hendcrsonlegalservices.com
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`IPR2014-00171-IPR20 14-00177; !PR20 14-00237-!PR20 !4-00D8
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`January S, 2014 Teleconference
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`di f ferent.
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`For example , the Apple I PRs raise a new
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`primary reference , Wes inger , Your Honor, that ' s no t
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`part of
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`t he App le IPRs .
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`So from t hat pe r spective ,
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`the issues are diffe r ent. And that' s what we we r e
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`getting at.
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`I don ' t know if -- you know, I guess
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`wha t does the board have in mind whe n you ' r e sayin g
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`you wanted to align t he schedul es? And if you
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`could s h ed some light to t ha t, that wou l d be
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`he lpful .
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`JU DGE TIERNEY: Unders t ood.
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`I can
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`c l ari fy . We ' re l ooking at having potential l y
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`and this i s why we wanted to 'talk to t h e part i es
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`today
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`b asically the t i me for f il ing the patent
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`owner prel iminary response should be f i l ed o n the
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`same d a te f or a l l the p r oceedings as one opti on.
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`And we were contemplating to try a nd keep thes e
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`case s cons i sten t in t he ir anal ysis by the board,
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`and t h at ' s why we're havi ng t h e d iscu ssion on t h i s
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`point .
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`Maybe at this point maybe i t ' s better i f
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`202-220-4158
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`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
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`www.hcndersonlegalservices.com
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`; ·
`!
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`1·.
`I
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`IPR2014-00 17 1-1PR20 14-00 177; IPR20 14-00237-ll'R20 14-00238
`
`January 8, 2014 Teleconference
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`we
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`t a l ked t o RPX and App le a nd s ee what the i r vie ws
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`ar e a l so , becau se I thi n k we h ave you r view s
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`under stood unless there's s omethi n g el se y ou'd l ike
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`to say befo r e we move on .
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`MR. PALYS :
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`I think th a t's good , Your
`
`Honor .
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`THE REPORTER:
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`Judge Tie rney , sor r y to
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`i nterrupt . This is the court reporter . And my
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`phone cut out a li ttle bi t .
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`I d i d n't want to
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`interrupt .
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`JU DGE TI ERNEY : Oka y . Wha t would you
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`li ke to d o?
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`THE RE PORTER:
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`I gu ess I ' d leave tha t up
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`t o you . The r e wa s about a two minute portion whe n
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`I was of f the phone .
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`JU DGE TIERNE Y:
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`I th ink it' 3 be st we
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`just conti nue going f o r ward instead of trying to
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`r e c apture everyth ing, unless -- Mr. Pa l ys , would
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`you l ike f or th e record to make a ny s tatement abou t
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`the las t
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`t wo minutes that may no t hav e b e en
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`ca pt u red ?
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`MR. PALYS : No.
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`I thin k we ca n move on,
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`202-220-4158
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`www.hendersonlega lservices.com
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`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
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`IPR10 14-00 17l -IPR10 14-00 177; 1PR20 14-00237-1PR20 14-00238
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`January S, 2014 Teleconference
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`You r Honor.
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`THE REPORTER: Sorry about that .
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`J UDGE TIERNEY: Not a problem.
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`Apple, I ' l l begin with you . For
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`scheduling purposes , yours was fi led I believe a
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`l i ttle bit l ater in time, December 6th. What a re
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`your views on trying to have the same schedule fo r
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`patent owner preliminary response between the
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`two -- the t wo series of cases between Apple and
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`RPX ' s?
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`MR. KUSHAN : Thank you, You r Honor . Let
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`me - - so we generally are supportive of al i gn ing
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`these p roceedings and for some o f the reasons
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`you ' ve a lready foreshadowed. First , you know, the
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`disc l osure that ' s being relied on for all these
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`pa te nts is essentially th e same part of t he same
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`patent . They use s i mi l ar or very similar concepts
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`and terms .
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`While there are individual references
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`that may be dif fe rent among some of the p etitions,
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`there is
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`and each of the pa t ents have been
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`challenged by three common re ferences .
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`Those are
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`202-220-4158
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`II'R20 14-00 171-IPR20 14-00 177; IPR20 14-00237-IPR20 14-00238
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`January S, 2014 Teleconference
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`the Aventail, Beser and Kiuchi refe rences .
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`So there ' s a l ot of overl ap in the
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`patentability issues t hat are go ing to b e presented
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`and cons idered in the proceeding based on t h ose
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`three references. And i t make a lot of sense in
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`our v i ew t o treat t hem as what they are , which is a
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`very clos ely re l ate d set of patents that are goi ng
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`to present very similar pat ent
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`i ssue s.
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`I a l s o th i nk you shou ld be awar e
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`t ha t
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`there is a common expe rt used by both Apple and RPX
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`to support their various petitions . That' s Mike
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`Fratto. And in fact in our v i e w i t would p r obabl y
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`be even appropri a te in the context o f
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`t h ese c a ses
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`to conside r a j oinder type of procedure for the
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`va r ious proceedings gi ven the s imi lar it y of the
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`different patents and the i ssues they present .
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`You might a l so want to think abou t
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`joinder i n the se n se that it would obviat e some o f
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`the questions that h ave been raised by the iss ue
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`tha t Virne tx is attempting to manufacture about
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`privity be twe en App l e a nd RPX.
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`And final ly, when it ' s app ropri ate to do
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`202-220-4158
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`j·
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`IPR20 14-0017 I-IPR2014-001 77; IPR20!4-00237-IPR20 14-00238
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`January S, 20 14 Tdcconterence
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`so, I want t o bring your atten tion to the f act that
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`there are pending reex aminati ons involv in g the same
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`pat e nt s that a r e the subject of the RPX petit ions
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`which you should have in mind , as wel l as t he f ac t
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`that we have filed rec o n s ideratio n motions or
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`he ar i ng requ ests on pe titions we filed on the s ame
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`fou r patents t ha t are the s ub ject of t h e RPX
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`pe titions.
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`And so in our view those p etitions we
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`fi l ed l ast summe r are essential ly sti ll o n th e
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`tabl e for evaluat ion.
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`J UDGE TIERNEY : And correct me if I' m
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`wrong, but all t hose pe titio ns were denie d , that
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`the y were not insti tuted, and t h e re q uest for
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`he a r ing is t o c h ange those dec i sions f rom a
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`non-in s titut e to a n inst i t ute?
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`MR. KUSHAN: That is correct , Yo ur
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`Hono r .
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`JU DGE TIERNEY:
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`So a t
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`t hi s point
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`i n
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`time , we understand that t h e cases may not be
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`compl ete ly over, but for pu rposes of today the
`
`stat us o f
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`t he case
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`i s tha t
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`t h ere is not an
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`202-220-4158
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`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
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`www. hendersonlegalservices.com
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`IPR20 14-00 171-IPR20 14-00177; IPR201 4-00237-I PR2014-00238
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`January 8, 2014 Teleconference
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`inst i tution?
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`MR . KUSHAN : That ' s correct. They ' re
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`not i nst ituted . You know, obvi ous ly we th ink tha t
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`there is a ve r y s trong basis for changing t hat
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`d etermi nati on based on t he c i rcums t ances of t hose
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`peti tions which are presen ting some what novel
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`ques ti ons und er 315 (b), the trans ition dat e for
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`implementing t h e Al A.
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`JU DGE TIERNEY: And I be l i eve you're
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`familiar with at l e ast some of t he members on the
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`phone today are members of the pane l on those
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`cases . The board is aware of the othe r
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`I P r eexams
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`and t he other IPRs that were f i led and the status
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`of them . Could you please give us some background
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`as to wh a t you wan t us to do with th is particular
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`i nformation, though?
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`MR. KUSHAN: Sure. What we'd actual l y
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`like to see the board to consider is a moti on to
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`transfer t he reexaminat i on proceedings over to the
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`board. An d the reason for doing t hat is pre t t y
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`s imp l e . Those reexams were filed back in Augus t of
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`2011 . Each of the f ou r patent s has been subjected
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`202-220-4158
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`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
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`II'R20 14-0017 I -II'R20 I 4-00 177; I PR20 14-00237-IPR2014-00238
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`to reject i ons of all the ir cla ims fo r
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`unpatentabi li ty on a n umber o f the grounds t hat ar e
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`th e same as those rai sed in th e RPX and ou r prior
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`pe t itions fi l ed in the summe r.
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`A big problem we faced is t h e
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`u npredictable del ays in progres sing tho se
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`proceedings to compl etion. And we thi nk one big
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`re ason why there h ave been del ays is th e conduct of
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`9 Virnetx i n those cases. It may s hock you to l earn
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`tha t Vi rnetx to our count has fi l e d more tha n 45
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`petiti ons in four proceedings, those f our
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`reexamination proceedings .
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`I h ave to t ell you I ' ve
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`never see n a nyth ing like th is.
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`We have one of t h ose proceedings si t ting
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`wai ting -- and this is the '1 51 patent -- which has
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`h~~n s i tt in g for over a year wi th no acti on. Th e
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`' 135 paten t has been sitting there s ince t he summer
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`18 with no action, waiting for PTO action .
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`On the appeals t hat have act ually
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`progressed or sta r ted on the other two patents ,
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`21 Virnetx filed three consecutive exte nsi on of time
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`22
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`re qu ests just t o f ile their appeal brief .
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`I !i
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`202-220-4158
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`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
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`www .henderson lcgalservices.com
`
`
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`IPR20 14-00 171 -IPR20 14-00 177; IPR20 14-00237-IPR20 14-00238
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`January 8, 2014 Teleconference
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`24 i
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`JUDGE TIERNEY:
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`I unders ta nd you 're
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`saying t h a t
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`t h ey may n ot be a s d il i g e nt as you
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`wou l d li ke .
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`Ple as e e xp l a i n ,
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`t hough , why the board
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`would exerc i se i t s dis cre t ion to tran sfer t he cases
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`and t ake
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`j u r i sdi c tio n . Wha t wou l d we then do ?
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`6 Wou l d we then p r oceed to admi n i ster th e IP r eexarn
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`fr om t he board b ut h a ving b oar d personne l do
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`i t?
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`MR. KUSHAN: Well ,
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`two thou ghts .
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`Fi rst ,
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`you h ave th e a uthor it y u nd e r 31 5 (d ) to trans fe r the
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`proceedi n gs t o t he boa r d . And the r e ason you might
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`do tha t
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`i s tha t
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`t hey are add r es sing c ommon
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`pate ntabi lity i ss u e s
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`t o t h ose raised i n the
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`peti tions filed by RPX. The same pat ents ar e the
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`subject o f both the I P reexams and t h e concurrent
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`I P p et ition s .
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`The other var iab le t hat i5 rclcvun t is
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`that t he s ame - - many of t h e same p at entabili ty
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`issue s are presented . The re 's certain iss ue s in
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`the I P r e e x ams t h at ar e n ot s ubj e ct o f
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`t he RPX or
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`e arl ier Apple p e ti tions , but t he re a r e a
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`s i gn ifi c an t numbe r of i s s u es that ove r l ap on the
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`s ame p r io r ar t o r pate ntab i li ty ground s .
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`202-220-41 58
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`www .henderson leg a lserviccs.com
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`
`
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`IPR2014-00171-II'R20 14-00177; IPR20 14-00237-Il'R10 14-00238
`
`Januaty 8, 2014 Teleconference
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`25
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`As far as h ow yo u might d o that ,
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`i t
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`seems appropriate to esse ntial l y put t hem onto t h e
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`foo ti ng o f an IPR p r oceeding_ That would make in
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`our v i ew the most sense because tha t would allow
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`you to conduct those p r oceedings in li ne wit h th e
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`schedu l e and t he p rocedures you've a l ready
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`e stabl i shed f or IPR pe t i t i o n s .
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`I
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`t h ink the commona l ity of the
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`9
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`patent abi l i t y is s ue s
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`t ha t are prese n ted in both the
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`IP r eexams and i n the IP petitions is the hook t hat
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`gives yo u th e author i ty to move t h e cas es over to
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`t he b oard under 315(d).
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`And we obviously wou ld be open to your
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`guidance for wh e ther we wou l d be asked to p re sent
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`or narrow some of the is s ue s to a l ign to the is sues
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`t ha t would be presented i n the IPR . You know ,
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`I
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`t hink you have , as you probably recognize, a fair
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`amoun t o f discretion to procee d i n mu ltipl e a c t i ons
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`or mul tipl e activitie s involving th e same patent
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`that are pendi ng before th e Of fice .
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`JUDGE TIERNEY : Wel l ,
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`t h e panel has
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`h e ard the concerns. At t h is point in time becaus e
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`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Lega I Services, Inc.
`
`:
`
`.J
`•• ,;..,.,...;.....;'"'1:1"1:"::r.tllf!.Nr::":o:!';l.."l':$~W"..;":N~;:~r,:;'llo,.:.,...o;. •.• totOi.;,~~
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`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`li'JUO 14-00 171 -IPR20 !4-00 177; IPR2014-00237-ll'R20!4-0023S
`
`.January 8, 2014 Teleconference
`
`26
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`we have not insti t uted the cases we decline to
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`exe r cise jurisdiction and transfer the cases at
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`this point in time. Should we dec ide to insti tute
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`the cases , in parti cular the c hallenges that have
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`been brought f orth in the peti tions, we can revi si t
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`t he issue again during an initial co nference cal l.
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`MR. KUSHAN: Your Honor, just very
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`briefly, t his is ki nd of uncharted wa te rs I
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`t h i nk.
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`I don ' t th i nk I ' ve seen any act i vi t y b y the pane l
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`on a transfer issue.
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`I've seen some activity
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`relating to consolidation issues. Would it be
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`appr opriate f or us to a t least brief and pre sent a
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`1 3 motion f or transfer o f
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`t hese proceedings f or your
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`considerat i on?
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`JUDGE TIERNEY : Wel l ,
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`I do have a court
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`repo r t e r. I'll e l ucidate a little bit on the
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`reasoni ng so we can have it on the record a s to why
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`we wi l l not at this t i me exerc i se j urisdiction. We
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`have jurisdi ction . Exercise it in such a manner t o
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`t r ansfer t he cases to the board .
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`In particular at t h is point in time
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`22 we're ear ly in the proceeding . We have not had t he
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`202-220-4!58
`
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`
`
`
`IPR20 14-00 171-IPR20 14-00 177; WR20 14-00237-IPR20 14-00238
`
`January 8, 201 4 Teleconference
`
`27
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