CONFIDENTIAL VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF SHUKRI J. SOURI, Ph.D.
`CONDUCTED ON WEDNESDAY, APRIL 13, 2011
`
`\OOOQQLAJLWNH
`
`p—Ap—A"0
`
`p—Ap—AWN
`
`IN THE U\IITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
`
`FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA
`ALEXANDRIA DIVISION
`_______________________________X
`
`SPAN SION LLC,
`
`Plaintiff,
`
`V.
`
`)
`
`)
`
`SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO.,
`
`)
`
`LTD, et al.,
`
`) CiVil Action No.
`
`) 1:10-cv-881-LO-JFA
`Defendants.
`SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO.,
`)
`
`LTD,
`
`)
`
`Counterclaim Plaintiff,
`
`)
`
`V.
`
`)
`
`SPANSION LLC and SPANSION,
`
`)
`
`INC.
`
`)
`
`Counterclaim Defendants.
`
`)
`
`-------------------------------x
`
`CONFIDENTIAL -- ATTORNEYS‘ EYES ON'
`
`
`Washington, DC
`
`Wednesday, April 13, 2011 9:02 am.
`
`1 (Pages 1 t0 4)
`
`
`
`APPEARANCES
`
`ON BEHALF OF PLAINTIFF AND COUNTERCLAIM
`
`DEFENDANTS:
`
`STEPHEN K. SHAHIDA, ESQUIRE
`McDERMOTT WILL & EMERY LLP
`
`600 Thirteenth Street, Northwest
`
`Washington, DC 20005-3096
`
`Telephone: (202) 756-8000
`
`ON BEHALF OF DEFENDANT S AND COUNTERCLAIM
`
`PLAINTIFF:
`
`MICHAEL J. McKEON, ESQUIRE
`
`FISH & RICHARDSON P.C.
`
`11th Floor
`
`1425 K Street, Northwest
`
`Washington, DC 20005
`
`Telephone: (202) 783-5070
`
`District of Columbia.
`
`VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION of SHUKRI J. SOURI, Ph.D.
`
`A P P EA RAN C E S C ON T I N U E D
`
`OOOVOUIAUJNI—
`
`._I O
`
`,_I
`
`,_I
`
`Job No.: 1-197484
`
`Pages 1 — 317
`
`Reported By: Joan V. Cain
`
`Videotaped Deposition of SHUKRI J. SOURI,
`Ph.D., held at the law offices of:
`
`
`McDERMOTT WILL & EMERY LLP
`
`600 Thirteenth Street, Northwest
`
`Washington, DC 20005-3096
`
`(202) 756-8000
`
`Pursuant to Notice, before Joan V. Cain,
`
`Court Reporter and Notary Public in and for the
`
`
`ALSO ON BEHALF OF DEFENDANTS AND COUNTERCLAI
`
`PLAINTIFF:
`
`KAROLINA JESIEN, ESQUIRE
`FISH & RICHARDSON P.C.
`
`52nd Floor
`153 East 53rd Street
`New York, New York 10022-4611
`
`Telephone:
`
`(212) 765-5070
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
`
`Cali Day, Videographer
`
`EXHIBIT
`MACRONIX
`IPR2014-00108
`
`MX027-1013
`
`
`Merrill LAD - (800) 292-4789
`>”CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY“<
`
`CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS INFORMATION - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER
`
`SP89300869877
`
`IPR2014-00108
`Exhibit MX027-1013, p. 1
`
`

`

`CONFIDENTIAL VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF SHUKRI I. SOURI, Ph.D.
`CONDUCTED ON WEDNESDAY, APRIL 13, 2011
`
`2 (Pages5to 8)
`
`CONTENTS
`
`PROCEEDINGS
`
`EXAMINATION OF SHUKRI J. SOURI, PhD.
`
`PAGE
`
`By MR. McKEON
`
`8
`
`EXHIBITS
`
`(Attached to the Transcript.)
`DEPOSITION EXHIBITS
`
`OWNONUI-IAWNI—
`m-IAUJNI—«O
`
`I—ifi—iI—iI—iI—iI—i
`
`THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Here begins Tape No. 1
`
`in the deposition of Shukri SouI‘i in the matter of
`
`Spansion LLC versus Samsung Electronics Co, Ltd,
`et al., and the related counterclaim, in the United
`States District Court for the Eastern District of
`
`Virginia, Alexandria Division, Civil Action No.
`1:10-cv-881-LO-JFA.
`
`Today's date is April 13th, 2011. The time
`
`is 9:03 am. The video operator today is Cali Day.
`
`This deposition is taking place at McDermott Will &
`
`Emery, 600 Thirteenth Street, Northwest, Washington,
`DC. 20005.
`
`Would counsel please identify themselves
`
`and state whom they represent.
`
`MR. SHAHIDA: Steve Shahida, McDermott Will
`
`& Emery for plaintiff Spansion and for the witness
`
`t—dt—dt—dOO\]O\
`NNI—iI—«OVD & Richardson representing the Samsung parties.
`
`here today.
`
`MR. McKEON: Good morning. I'm Mike McKeo
`
`and with me today is Karolina Jesien, both from Fish
`
`NN
`
`K!)OO\]O\UI-I>-kfil\.>>—A
`
`_. o
`
`,_i
`
`,_.
`
`H N
`
`,_. w
`
`THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The court reporter today
`
`please swear in the witness.
`SHUKRI J. SOURI, Ph.D.
`
`having been duly sworn, was examined and did testify
`as follows:
`
`EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANTS A I
`
`COUNTERCLAIM PLAINTIFF
`
`BY MR. McKEON:
`
`Q Good morning.
`
`A Good morning.
`
`Q Would you state your full name for the
`
`record, please.
`A Yes. It's Shukri Souri.
`
`Q And who are you employed by?
`
`A I'm an employee of Exponent, Incorporated.
`
`\OOONGMJAUJNp—A
`LII-IkLRNt—‘O
`
`D—KD—KD—KD—KD—KD—K
`
`I—AI—Ap—a30\]O\
`NNt—At—AOND
`
`NN
`
`1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
`
`,_i O
`
`._I
`
`._I
`
`,_i N
`
`I—II—II—IUl-bw
`
`NNNI—II—II—‘I—INI—‘OKDOOQQ
`
`EXHIBITS CONTIN UED
`
`is Joan Cain of Merrill LAD. Would the reporter
`
`(Attached to the Transcript.)
`DEPOSITION EXHIBITS
`
`Merrill LAD - (800) 292-4789
`* * CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY>I< *
`
`CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS INFORMATION - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER
`
`IPR2014-00108
`Exhibit MX027-1013, p. 2
`SP89300869878
`
`IPR2014-00108
`Exhibit MX027-1013, p. 2
`
`

`

`CONFIDENTIAL VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF SHUKRI I. SOURI, Ph.D.
`CONDUCTED ON WEDNESDAY, APRIL 13, 2011
`
`©00\10\U14>UJ[\JI—
`NI—iI—ifi—iI—iI—iI—iI—iI—iI—iI—i
`OOOOQQUI-DUJNI—‘O
`
`60 (Pages 237 to 240)
`239
`
`So you would have to go back to figure 3B
`
`in this particular example discussed in the patent,
`
`and you can consider 310a to be poly-l proximate to
`
`the memory and 310b to be poly-l proximate to the
`
`periphery as -- as an example.
`BY MR. McKEON:
`
`Q Okay. And then claim 2, though, is etching
`
`poly-l layer proximate to said periphery. Do you
`see that?
`
`A Yes. So that would be accomplished as
`
`shown -- as an example, shown in figure 3C.
`
`Q Okay. And that's happening -- in terms of
`
`time, that's happening before etching said poly-2
`
`layer proximate to said periphery in claim 1,
`correct?
`
`MR. SHAHIDA: Objection.
`
`THE WITNESS: Sorry. Your question is as a
`
`sequence in time?
`BY MR. McKEON:
`
`Q Yes.
`
`A It can. yes.
`
`Q Well, I mean it does, right? It's not can.
`
`
`
`It actually does.
`
`A In this example. It's not limited to this
`
`example.
`
`Q Well, is there any -- is there any -- is it
`
`possible to etch poly-2 before poly-l and not etch
`
`poly- 1?
`
`I'm sorry. Is it possible to do what?
`Well --
`
`Poly-2 etch without poly-l?
`
`Right.
`Sure.
`
`Okay. So it's possible to etch poly-2 and
`
`only poly-2 and then subsequent to that in time etch
`
`poly -- poly-l?
`
`A You could, yes.
`
`Q Okay. Is that what's contemplated by this
`
`Q Okay. Well, let me ask you this question.
`
`In the -- going to 3E, for example, where's the
`
`poly-l layer that's proximate to the periphery in
`3E?
`
`MR. SHAHIDA: Objection.
`
`THE WITNESS: Sorry. Which figure again?
`BY MR. McKEON:
`
`Q Well, I'm looking at 3E by way of example,
`
`patent?
`
`but we can look at 3D or 3F if you'd like. Where's
`
`A I -- I -- I think what's contemplated by
`
`the poly-l layer that's proximate to periphery?
`
`this patent is something a person of ordinary skill
`
`MR. SHAHIDA: Objection.
`
`would understand to go beyond just what you're
`
`seeing here as an example in the embodiment. It'
`
`again?
`
`possible to etch poly-2 separately and first from
`
`Merrill LAD - (800) 292-4789
`>”CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY’I"I<
`
`CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS INFORMATION - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER
`
`IPR2014-00108
`Exhibit MX027-1013, p. 3
`SP89300869936
`
`IPR2014-00108
`Exhibit MX027-1013, p. 3
`
`

`

`CONFIDENTIAL VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF SHUKRI I. SOURI, Ph.D.
`CONDUCTED ON WEDNESDAY, APRIL 13, 2011
`
`241
`
`61 (Pages 241 to 244)
`243
`
`
`
`utilize the invention and various embodiments with
`
`various modifications as are suited to the
`
`particular use contemplated.
`
`So it's not limiting me as -- or one of
`
`ordinary skill upon reading this to performing it in
`
`specific -— to a precise -— to the precise forms
`disclosed.
`
`Q Let me ask you this question.
`A Yes.
`
`Q With respect to the etching steps in claim
`
`1 and then we have etching steps in claim 2, is it
`
`your viewpoint tha -- that the etching steps in
`
`those claims can all be done simultaneously and
`
`satisfy claims 1 and claims 2? One etching step,
`
`poly-1, poly-2, and you can meet claim 1 and 2?
`
`A In the hypothetical that you have just
`
`described, I'm assuming that we have poly-1 and
`
`poly-2 across from memory through interface throug
`
`periphery and that your question is whether I --
`
`whether it's my opinion that simultaneously etching
`
`through poly-2 and poly-1 on either side of the
`interface can I read that onto the claims?
`
`Q Yes.
`A Yes.
`
`Q Okay. So let's take it one at a time.
`
`Claim 1, is your testimony that claim 1 requires
`
`forming poly-2 layer above the substrate at an
`
`interface, et cetera, in the first element there,
`
`and then as a second step you can etch both
`
`proximate to the memory and proximate to the
`
`periphery simultaneously, and it's your viewpoint
`
`that that's covered by claim 1?
`
`MR. SHAHIDA: Objection.
`THE WITNESS: Yes.
`
`BY MR. McKEON:
`
`Q Okay.
`
`A I mean, one of ordinary skill would
`
`understand that that would be a good thing to do
`
`That would be saving etching steps.
`
`Q Now in terms of disclosure in the patent
`
`that supports that viewpoint, is -- you identified
`
`column 5, the bottom of column 5.
`
`I saw that.
`
`Anywhere else that you believe supports your
`
`viewpoint tha -- that simultaneous etching of
`
`poly-1. It's possible to etch them together at the
`
`same time. One of ordinary skill would understan
`that.
`
`It's also possible to -- there's a lot of
`
`things that one of ordinary skill in the area of
`
`semiconductors and in this field can do, can design
`
`a process to do.
`
`Q Okay. So let me -- let me ask you this.
`
`Is it your viewpoint then, with respect to claims 1
`
`and 2, that the order of the etching steps is not
`
`limited to any particular order, you can do it in
`
`any order you want?
`
`MR. SHAHIDA: Objection.
`
`THE WITNESS:
`
`I -- I think with respect to
`
`poly-l and poly-2 and also with respect to whether
`
`we're talking about proximate to periphery or
`
`proximate to memory array, one of ordinary skill and
`
`referencing and understanding the specification and
`
`the figures would understand that they can do it
`
`in -- as they see fit, and there's also support for
`
`that in the patent bottom of column 5.
`BY MR. McKEON:
`
`Q Where is that now?
`
`A Bottom of column 5, paragraph lines 54 till
`
`the end of the column. It says that the embodiments
`
`have been presented for purposes of illustration and
`
`description. They're not intended to be exhaustive
`
`or to limit the invention to the precise forms
`
`disclosed, and obviously many modifications and
`
`variations are possible in light of the above
`
`teaching.
`
`Q This is the form paragraph that's in almost
`
`every patent you're talking about; is that right?
`
`MR. SHAHIDA: Objection.
`BY MR. McKEON:
`
`Q I mea --
`
`A Maybe. I don't know about other patents.
`
`All I'm saying is that one of ordinary skill reading
`
`this would understand that, okay, I mean the patent
`
`is not limiting me to doing it in a particular
`
`manner, and it says the embodiments were chosen an
`
`described in order to best explain the principles of
`
`the invention and its practical application, to
`
`thereby enable others skilled in the art to best
`
`OWNONUI-PWNI—t
`NNNI—‘I—‘I—‘I—ii—ii—ii—ii—ii—ii—i
`NHCUDOON©UIJAUJNHO
`©00\lO\UI-I>UJ[\JI—d
`NNNI—iI—iI—iI—iI—iI—iI—ii—il—ii—i
`NI—OCOOQQUI-BUJNI—‘O
`
`\OOO\10\Ul-I>UJ[\JI—a
`NNNI—«I—«I—«I—«I—«I—«I—«I—«I—«I—aNi—oxooowcxmthi—o
`
`l 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
`
`NNNI—«I—«I—«I—«I—«I—«I—«I—«I—«I—aNr—ooooucxmgmNI—o
`
`Merrill LAD - (800) 292-4789
`>”CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY’I"I<
`
`CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS INFORMATION - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER
`
`IPR2014-00108
`Exhibit MX027-1013, p. 4
`SP89300869937
`
`IPR2014-00108
`Exhibit MX027-1013, p. 4
`
`

`

`CONFIDENTIAL VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF SHUKRI I. SOURI. PhD.
`CONDUCTED ON WEDNESDAY. APRIL 13. 2011
`
`62 (Pages 245 to 248)
`
`poly-2 is covered by claim I?
`
`A I'm not sure. It's possible, but I -- I
`
`can't find it right now if it exists.
`
`Q Okay.
`
`A But I think one of ordinary skill would
`
`understand that it's possible.
`
`Q Okay. Well --
`A It's reasonable.
`
`
`
`
`Mem'll LAD - (800) 292-4789
`* * CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY>I< *
`
`CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS INFORMATION - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER
`
`IPR2014-00108
`Exhibit MX027-1013, p. 5
`SP89300869938
`
`
`
`IPR2014-00108
`Exhibit MX027-1013, p. 5
`
`