D. Brahmbhatt
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 1
`
`--------------------------------x
`MACRONIX INTERNATIONAL CO.,
`MACRONIX ASIA LIMITED, MACRONIX
`(HONG KONG) CO., LTD., and
`MACRONIX AMERICA, INC.,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` - against - IPR2014-00108
` Patent 7,151,027 B1
`SPANSION LLC,
`
` Patent Owner.
`--------------------------------x
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
` DR. DHAVAL BRAHMBHATT
` New York, New York
` Wednesday, July 3, 2014
`
`Reported by:
`THOMAS A. FERNICOLA, RPR
`JOB NO. 81810
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide
`(877) 702-9580
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`Spansion Exhibit 2004
`Macronix et al v. Spansion
`IPR2014-00108
`Page 00001
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` D. Brahmbhatt
`A P P E A R A N C E S:
`
` WINSTON & STRAWN
` Attorneys for Petitioner
` 1700 K Street, NW
` Washington, DC 20006
` BY: ANDREW SOMMER, ESQ.
`
` ROPES & GRAY
` Attorneys for Patent Owner
` 700 12th Street
` Washington, D.C. 20005
` BY: J. STEVEN BAUGHMAN, ESQ.
`
` - and -
` ROPES & GRAY
` 191 North Wacker Drive
` Chicago, Illinois 60606
` BY: JANICE JABIDO, ESQ.
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
`
`Page 5
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` D. Brahmbhatt
` Petitioner and the witness.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court
` reporter please swear in the witness.
`
`D H A V A L J. B R A H M B H A T T,
` called as a witness, having been duly sworn
` by a Notary Public, was examined and
` testified as follows:
`BY THE REPORTER:
` Q. Please state your full name and
` address for the record.
` A. Dhaval J. Brahmbhatt. Address, 25
` North 14th Street, Suite 400, San Jose,
` California 95112.
`
`CROSS EXAMINATION
`BY MR. BAUGHMAN:
` Q. Good morning, Mr. Brahmbhatt.
` A. Good morning.
` Q. Just to start off, is there any
` reason that you're not able to answer questions
` fully and truthfully this morning?
` A. No.
` Q. And I understand you're testifying
`
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` D. Brahmbhatt
`
` July 3, 2014
` 9:01 a.m.
`
` Videotaped Deposition of DHAVAL J.
`BRAHMBHATT, held at the Law Offices of Winston &
`Strawn LLP, 200 Park Avenue, New York, New York,
`before Thomas A. Fernicola, a Registered
`Professional Reporter and Notary Public of the
`State of New York.
`
`Page 4
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` D. Brahmbhatt
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the start
` of tape labeled No. 1 of the videotaped
` deposition of Dhaval Brahmbhatt, in the
` matter of Macronix International Company
` Limited, et al., versus Spansion, LLC, in
` the United States Patent and Trademark
` Office before the Patent Trial and Appeal
` Board, Case No. IPR2014-00108.
` This deposition is being held at 200
` Park Avenue, New York, New York, on
` July 3rd, 2014, at approximately 9:01 a.m.
` My name is Robert Rinkewhich from TSG
` Reporting, Incorporated, and I am the legal
` video specialist.
` The court reporter is Tom Fernicola,
` in association with TSG Reporting.
` Will counsel please introduce
` yourselves.
` MR. BAUGHMAN: Steven Baughman from
` Ropes & Gray, counsel for Patent Owner.
` MS. JABIDO: Janice Jabido, also from
` Ropes & Gray.
` MR. SOMMER: Andrew Sommer with
` Winston & Strawn, on behalf of the
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` D. Brahmbhatt
` today in a proceeding that concerns U.S. Patent
` No. 7,151,027; is that right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. I'll put a copy in front of you so
` you can check that number for me. It's
` Exhibit 1001, already marked in this
` proceeding.
` And, again, for ease of reference,
` like we did with yesterday's deposition, I may
` refer to Exhibit 1001 as the ''027 patent.
` Is that understood?
` A. Yes.
` Q. So if I refer to that, you'll
` understand that I'm referring to Exhibit 1?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Thank you.
` And you submitted a declaration in
` this proceeding; is that right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And that is Exhibit 1002, which I'm
` handing you that's been previously marked.
` Is that Exhibit 1002 your corrected
` declaration?
` A. Yes.
`
`Page 8
`
` D. Brahmbhatt
` that while our cross-examination today is
` pending, you're not to consult or confer with
` counsel about the substance of your testimony?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Thank you.
` So, Mr. Brahmbhatt, turning to your
` declaration, Exhibit 1002, could you please
` take a look at paragraph 22? And it's on
` page 9, looking at the little numbers on the
` right bottom side of the page.
` A. (Document review.)
` Yes, sir.
` Q. In paragraph 22 you summarize your
` opinions relating to a number of prior are
` references in connection with the '027 patent;
` is that right?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. And I believe you've listed four
` patents there with bullets; is that right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Are you aware that the Patent Trial
` and Appeal Board has issued an order
` instituting trial in this matter?
` A. Yes, sir.
`
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`Page 7
`
` D. Brahmbhatt
` Q. And that is your sworn testimony in
` this matter; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And I know you were deposed
` yesterday, Mr. Brahmbhatt, in another matter.
` Because we stipulated there that some
` background information could be used in the
` proceeding we're talking about today, I'm going
` to skip some of that, but I have a couple of
` background questions for you.
` I know you've been deposed before,
` but you've been deposed a number of times; is
` that right?
` A. Yes, sir.
` Q. And you've been previously testified
` been deposed about the '027 patent that we're
` talking about today?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And you've provided opinions and
` testimony, including a witness statement, in
` the ITC about the '027 patent; is that right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay.
` And like yesterday, do you understand
`
`Page 9
`
` D. Brahmbhatt
` Q. And do you know how many references,
` how many prior art documents the Board has
` decided to make part of the proceeding that's
` going forward?
` MR. SOMMER: I object to form.
` A. You mean out of the four listed here?
` Q. Yes.
` A. Yes. I believe going forward
` Yuzuriha, Shukuri, and I believe Lee, maybe.
` Q. Mr. Brahmbhatt, I'm going to show you
` what's being marked now as Exhibit 2002.
` That's the decision instituting trial in this
` matter.
` Have you seen that before?
` A. Yes, I have.
` Q. If you look at page 33 of
` Exhibit 2002, I think it might be help identify
` the references that are part of the proceeding
` going forward.
` A. (Document review.)
` Q. Do you see on page 20 -- sorry, page
` 33, that there are three items listed under
` Conclusion, and they include a reference to
` Yuzuriha, the second reference to Yuzuriha and
`
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` D. Brahmbhatt
` Shukuri, and a third reference to Yuzuriha and
` Nakagawa. Is that --
` A. Okay, sir. Yes, you're right.
` Q. Okay.
` So, is it correct that in your
` understanding there are three references that
` remain in the proceeding we're talking about
` today?
` MR. SOMMER: I object to form.
` A. Okay. Yes, sir.
` Q. And just so we have clarity on the
` record going forward, the Yuzuriha document
` we're talking about is a patent that's been
` marked as Exhibit 1003 in this case; is that
` your understanding?
` I'm showing you Exhibit 1003.
` A. Yes, sir.
` Q. And that is marked as Exhibit 1005 in
` this matter; is that correct?
` I'm showing you 1005.
` A. That is correct.
` Q. I'm going to show you Exhibit 1006.
` Is that the Nakagawa prior art
` reference that's discussed your declaration?
`
`Page 12
`
` D. Brahmbhatt
` Q. 61.
` MR. SOMMER: I object to form.
` A. Did you ask 3, 9, 4 and 10?
` Q. Yes. We can break that up to address
` counsel's objection.
` So in paragraphs 58 and 59 you
` address the application of Yuzuriha to Claims 3
` and 9; is that correct?
` A. That is right.
` Q. And in paragraph 60 and 61 you
` provide your opinions about the applicability
` of Yuzuriha to Claims 4 and 10; correct?
` A. That's right.
` Q. Thanks.
` I want to ask you a few questions
` about your discussion in paragraphs 57 and 58.
` I'm sorry, actually, let me see here. I've got
` the wrong paragraph.
` 58 and 59. So in paragraph 58 --
` strike that.
` In paragraph 59 you refer to
` MX027-1003.
` Do you see that there in the second
` line?
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` D. Brahmbhatt
` A. That is correct.
` Q. Okay.
` Now turning in your declaration, I
` know you've got a lot of paper in front of you,
` let's get Exhibit 1002, your declaration.
` A. Yes.
` Q. If you could look at paragraph 43,
` please. And from paragraphs 43 to 57 of your
` declaration, would you agree that you're
` discussing the application of Yuzuriha to
` Claims 1, 2 and 8 of the '027 patent?
` A. May I check them?
` Q. Sure thing.
` A. Up through 57; correct.
` Q. Yes.
` So I was asking you about
` paragraphs 43 to 57.
` A. Yes, that is correct, sir.
` Q. Thank you.
` And while we are here looking at
` paragraphs 58 through 61, is that where, in
` your opinion, you discuss the application of
` Yuzuriha to Claims 3, 4, 9 and 10?
` A. So 58 until --
`
`Page 13
`
` D. Brahmbhatt
` A. Yes, sir.
` Q. That is a citation form that refers
` to what we just called Exhibit 1003 or
` Yuzuriha; correct?
` A. Oh, okay. That's right.
` Q. I just want to make sure we're all on
` the same page here.
` A. Correct.
` Q. Okay. Thanks.
` Now, turning to the patent, the '027
` patent that's Exhibit 1001 somewhere in front
` of you there.
` Got it?
` A. Yes, sir.
` Q. Okay.
` If you look at Claims -- Claim 3,
` would you agree that Claim 3 generally adds the
` limitation of a stacked gate etch to its base
` Claim 1?
` MR. SOMMER: I object to form.
` A. So the Claim 3 reads that the method
` as recited in Claim 1 wherein the said
` etching -- by performing a stack gate etch.
` So, yes.
`
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` D. Brahmbhatt
` Q. And, similarly, Claim 9 adds the
` limitation of a stacked gate etch to its base
` Claim 8; is that correct?
` MR. SOMMER: I object to form.
` A. That is correct.
` Q. Looking at Claim 4, does Claim 4
` generally add the limitation of a second gate
` etch to its base Claim 1?
` MR. SOMMER: I object to the form.
` A. Oh, I'm sorry. So the question was?
` I'm looking at --
` Q. Sure. I'll read it again.
` Looking at Claim 4, does Claim 4
` generally add the limitation of a second gate
` etch to its base claim, Claim 1?
` MR. SOMMER: Same objection.
` A. Yes.
` Q. And now looking at Claim 10, does
` Claim 10 generally add the limitation of a
` second gate etch to its base claim, Claim 8?
` MR. SOMMER: I object to form.
` A. Yes, sir.
` Q. Stepping back for a moment to the
` image on page 23 of your declaration, that's
`
`Page 16
`
` D. Brahmbhatt
` Q. I appreciate that.
` So, and just so the record is clear
` because it's a typed record and they can't see
` where we are pointing in the diagram --
` A. Right.
` Q. -- the image on page 23 of your
` declaration, Exhibit 1002, is Figure 9 of
` Yuzuriha that you've copied here and then added
` some notations to; is that right?
` A. Yes, sir.
` Q. We just talked about some vertical
` lines. I think there are two of them, each
` with a red arrow pointing down above it; is
` that right?
` A. You mean the dotted lines?
` Q. Yes.
` A. That is correct.
` Q. And you added the arrows and the
` dotted lines?
` A. Yes, sir.
` Q. And I think what you just testified,
` but please correct me if I'm mistaken, you said
` that the placement of the dotted lines is not
` exact?
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` D. Brahmbhatt
` Exhibit 1002, below your paragraph 55, if that
` helps, page 23.
` Do you have that?
` A. Yes, I do.
` Q. Thank you.
` On page 23 of your declaration you
` annotated in Figure 9 of Yuzuriha where you
` believe the memory is, the memory array, and
` that is on the left-hand side of the drawing;
` is that right?
` A. Yes, sir.
` Q. To the left of sort of a vertical
` dashed line?
` A. Oh, let me correct that.
` Q. Sure.
` A. So what we have are three areas that
` are identified in this Figure 9 that we're
` focusing on right now. And I want to just make
` sure we understand that we have memory
` transistor region on the left side of the
` diagram. The lines, the annotated lines are
` not exact; in other words, they are there to
` just illustrate. I just wanted to make that
` clear.
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`Page 17
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` D. Brahmbhatt
` A. I wanted to make that clear.
` Q. Understood.
` But what you've tried to indicate
` here is that to the left of that leftmost
` dotted line is generally what you're indicating
` is the memory array, as you read in it
` Figure 9?
` A. So my understanding would be that,
` generally speaking -- and I want to emphasize
` the dotted line is not an accurate position,
` but, generally speaking, the memory array, the
` first transistor I would say starts what is
` shown here at -- as 16, the first time around,
` left of the bottom going -- I mean, bottom
` pointed arrow. That's where the first memory
` transistor would come up at the end of the
` process; and, therefore, the memory array would
` begin for sure at that location.
` Q. Okay.
` If you don't mind, I'm going to
` actually hand you a pen --
` A. Yes.
` Q. -- just so we can indicate where
` you're talking about on that copy of
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`Page 18
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` D. Brahmbhatt
` Exhibit 1002, and we'll mark that so that
` everybody has a copy, as well.
` A. Oh, yes. So what I was trying to
` say, Counsel --
` Q. Yes.
` A. -- was that for sure this is where,
` and I'm drawing an arrow and I'm showing it to
` you.
` Q. Yes. Thank you.
` A. This is where, at the end of
` processing, would be the location of the memory
` transistor for the array, either you call it
` the last one or the first one, but it doesn't
` matter, but that's where.
` Q. And so, could I ask you to put a
` letter "M" next to that arrow just in case we
` end up putting any more marks on it.
` A. Okay. Should I write the "M" inside
` the yellow or just on --
` Q. Why don't you put it at the end of
` your arrow --
` A. Oh.
` Q. -- away from the figure there so we
` can trace back to it pretty easily. Wherever
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`Page 20
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` D. Brahmbhatt
` find the one that has your marks from
` today.
` (Spansion's Exhibit 2003, Copy of
` Exhibit 1002 with markings, was marked
` for identification.)
` A. Sure. Should I put it on the top?
` Q. That's fine. Thank you.
` Sorry, bottom right.
` A. Bottom right?
` Q. Sorry. Thank you.
` A. One thing over here --
` Q. Right above the other one.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Thank you.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Great. Thanks so much.
` So, again, turning to page 23 of
` what's now Exhibit 2003, you have added a blue
` arrow and a letter "M" just to the right of one
` of the transistors --
` A. Right.
` Q. -- in Figure 9.
` A. Right.
` Q. And I think you've indicated that at
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`Page 19
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` D. Brahmbhatt
` is good.
` A. Is that good enough?
` Q. So you added a blue "M" next to your
` arrow and you're saying that to the left of
` that arrow in the drawing --
` A. Yes.
` Q. -- would at least be the memory
` region?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay.
` And between that point, that "M"
` you've just added, and the rightmost dotted
` line that you've included in your figure here
` on page 23, is that what you would call the
` interface area?
` A. Oh, I'm sorry. Can you repeat the
` question?
` Q. Sure.
` Before we do that, let's actually go
` ahead and mark that so we don't lose track of
` the number.
` MR. BAUGHMAN: So I'm going to mark
` the copy you have of Exhibit 1002 as
` Spansion Exhibit 2003, just so that we can
`
`Page 21
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` D. Brahmbhatt
` least to the left of that, you would consider
` the memory region?
` A. Right.
` Q. Essentially you were just clarifying
` or maybe moving the line that you had initially
` drawn in the diagram somewhat to the left?
` A. I'm not moving anything. All I'm
` saying is that line is just drawing to make a
` point and it's not going to be accurate.
` That's all. It's just to illustrate.
` And it's in some ways similar to the
` lines that I see in '027, and these things are
` just to illustrate a point.
` Q. And just so I understand what you're
` indicating with "M," is that, the line you've
` drawn at "M," would you say that's more
` accurate about where the memory region begins?
` Is that your preference to use that as the
` mark?
` A. Well, I was just trying to correlate
` that to the '027. And when I look at '027
` patent diagrams over here, we -- if we try to
` correlate, if we look at Figure 3B, and I'm
` just going to agree with '027 for this
`
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`Page 22
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` D. Brahmbhatt
` discussion for the purpose of this discussion
` that the '027 would like to start the core over
` here and they would like to start the periphery
` over here.
` So what you have is similar situation
` here in -- in Figure 9 and --
` Q. Pardon me one second.
` (A Discussion was Held off the
` Record.)
` MR. BAUGHMAN: Maybe we should go off
` the record just for a moment to discuss
` this.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is
` 9:21 a.m. We are off the record.
` (Recess taken from 9:21 a.m. to
` 9:21 a.m.)
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is
` 9:21 a.m. We're on the record.
`BY MR. BAUGHMAN:
` Q. Mr. Brahmbhatt, sorry.
` A. So I wanted to bring out something to
` you.
` Q. Yes.
` A. This is pretty interesting. We look
`
`Page 24
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` D. Brahmbhatt
` drawing.
` Q. And you'd agree, Mr. Brahmbhatt, that
` other things are changing between, say,
` Figure 3D and 3E besides the location of the
` word "Core"; correct?
` A. As it relates to what aspect, sir?
` Q. Well, other aspects of the drawing
` have changed, including structures near the
` word "Core"; correct?
` A. Yes, there have been etching done.
` But I guess the point that I was trying to make
` over here is maybe they forgot to draw the
` dotted line over here because -- but still the
` word "Core" starts after the dotted line here,
` if you look over here, which is actually close
` to this edge.
` And then here the dotted line
` disappears, but the core moves over here. So
` my point over here is these are diagrams and
` that's how we should treat them.
` Q. I understand.
` Did you have Exhibit 1001 available
` to you while you were preparing Exhibit 1002
` which has now been marked as Exhibit 2003?
`
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` D. Brahmbhatt
` at -- and I'm now in '027 diagrams.
` Q. So you're in Exhibit 1001?
` A. Right.
` And if you compare on the left
` side --
` Q. Yes.
` A. -- of the Figure 3D, where you have
` the dotted line here, you see the dotted line
` over here is moved over here close to on this
` edge. And then when you go to Figure 3E, what
` is called core has now moved a little bit by
` itself to the left-hand side.
` I would like to show this. You can
` see on the top of the figure the dotted line
` that says "Core" with an arrow going left --
` Q. In Figure 3D?
` A. D, yes, sir, is more closer to this
` edge. And then when you go at the bottom, what
` is called Figure 3F --
` Q. Yes.
` A. -- it just moves over there.
` So my point was that this was just to
` illustrate. And so -- and I'm not saying that
` anything unusual about this. It's just a
`
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` D. Brahmbhatt
` MR. SOMMER: Sorry. Object to form.
` A. Oh, you mean did I have the patent
` copy in front of me when I was preparing my
` report?
` Of course, I did, yes.
` Q. Now, returning to Exhibit 2003,
` Mr. Brahmbhatt, again, page 23 in the annotated
` copy you've made now with the mark "M," is the
` interface area as you see it in Figure 9
` between "M" and the rightmost dotted line?
` A. Oh, what is the definition of the
` interface area?
` Q. As you've used it in your
` declaration, is that where the interface area
` is located in this diagram?
` A. The way I would look at the
` interface, it is the region that is located
` between -- and I'm trying to be consistent with
` the definition that is used in '027, wherein
` what is called periphery and what is called
` memory array.
` And then we know, reading through the
` '027, that there is etching that is a part of
` forming the interface that would then separate
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` D. Brahmbhatt
` the structure that would stay in the interface
` for sure.
` So we have, for example, here in
` Figure 3F, after the two etches, we have the
` interface region over -- I mean, the structure
` in the interface region remaining after the
` etches on the left-hand side and after the
` second etch on the right-hand side, meaning one
` etch here and the second etch here. That's why
` I use the word plural, etches. There is one
` here and one here.
` So I guess what I'm trying to say is,
` initially, we start out with one structure
` right here. Initially, when we look at the --
` and that's going to be consistent with the
` reference, as well, and I'll get there. But my
` point over here is initially, we start out with
` a single continuous -- continuous structure.
` And then after the etching steps that occur on
` this side, which is the left side, and on the
` right side, then we end up separating a
` structure.
` So that now, you've got an individual
` structure sitting in the interface area and
`
`Page 28
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` D. Brahmbhatt
` part has to be interface. I mean, that's my
` logic.
` Q. And, Mr. Brahmbhatt, you didn't give
` an explicit definition of interface that you
` opined about in this declaration, did you?
` A. That was my understanding. Now I do
` not -- I can go through the declaration and see
` if I did or I did not and make sure. I just
` don't recollect right now if it was defined or
` not.
` Q. If you look at paragraph 38 of your
` declaration.
` A. 38.
` Q. Please let me know when you're there.
` A. I'm on 38, sir.
` Q. And in 38 you list four terms for
` which you were asked to assume a construction;
` is that correct?
` A. That is correct, sir.
` Q. And you state in paragraph 38, the
` second sentence, "I have not been asked to form
` and I have not formed an opinion regarding
` these claim constructions"; is that right?
` A. At the time, yes, that is correct.
`
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` D. Brahmbhatt
` then you've got what is called core over here
` and you've got what is called periphery over
` here by the patent Figure 3F. So if we go just
` by the diagram of Figure 3F, and I'm going to
` take it on face value, then if this is the core
` and the patent calls this the last transistor
` in the memory area --
` Q. And you're pointing -- excuse me for
` interrupting. You're pointing to the left side
` of Figure 3F?
` A. I am right now right there my finger
` is underneath the word "Core." And the same
` thing over here, I'm going to put my finger
` underneath the word "Periphery."
` So if this is the core and if this is
` the periphery, as per the patent, then the
` remaining part, as per the patent, has to be
` interface, the reason being there is no other
` region identified.
` Now, somebody could call another name
` for this region, but the patent doesn't
` identify that. And so, we've got three
` regions. And we've got the core here, we got
` the periphery here, which means the remaining
`
`Page 29
`
` D. Brahmbhatt
` Q. And you have listed as one of those
` terms interface between a memory array and a
` periphery; correct?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. And the definition you've applied in
` your declaration, Exhibit 1002, is an area
` between an array of memory cells and a
` periphery; correct?
` A. That is correct, sir.
` Q. Okay.
` Now, in paragraph 55 of that
` declaration, and, again, we're looking at an
` annotated copy that's been marked as
` Exhibit 2003, can you indicate where in that
` figure the interface area is?
` A. I guess, going by that definition and
` going by our recent discussion, in which case,
` you know, also being consistent, not just with
` what I -- what we just read in the paragraph
` that you pointed out sir, which was --
` Q. Paragraph 38.
` A. Yes, paragraph 38. And I'm going to
` read that again. Paragraph 38 says, "An area
` between an array of memory cells," and also on
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` D. Brahmbhatt
` the other side it says periphery. And we just
` clearly identified what is periphery and we
` clearly identified what is memory array and we
` were just following the '027.
` So I would apply the same
` understanding over here. And, as I explained
` to you and even showed you the '027 dotted
` lines, these things, you know, even the authors
` here were placing it somewhere just in the
` opening of the etch.
` But for this discussion and to be
` consistent with 38, I would say that it says
` what it says in 38, which is it's a region
` between the memory cells and it's the region
` between the periphery.
` Q. And you applied that definition for
` your testimony in this matter?
` A. Yes, sir.
` Q. Okay.
` So turning back to page 23 in your
` annotated version of Figure 9 --
` A. Okay.
` Page -- yes, I'm there, sir.
` Q. Where is the interface area in that
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` D. Brahmbhatt
` Q. -- and is it your testimony that
` between the "M" and the "P" is now the
` interface area?
` A. Right.
` MR. SOMMER: I object to form.
`BY MR. BAUGHMAN:
` Q. You'll agree that in your annotated
` version of Figure 9 you submitted as
` Exhibit 1002, you have marked the interface
` area as being between two dotted lines that are
` not the same locations as the "M" and the "P"
` you just placed; correct?
` A. Well, and I had explained before and
` I could do that again, that these dotted lines
` were for illustration purposes. And I also
` pointed out a similar situation with the patent
` itself.
` So I believe that I'm being
` consistent and I don't see any inconsistency
` there.
` Q. The explanation you gave about the
` patent itself, that's not set forth in your
` declaration, Exhibit 1002, is it?
` A. Oh, because I was not asked this
`
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` D. Brahmbhatt
` annotated diagram?
` A. So with that definition in mind, I
` suppose I have to draw another line with -- and
` I'm going to put another arrow like you had
` told me. So that would mean, roughly speaking,
` and these are all approximate because -- okay.
` So this time I put the arrow on the
` top.
` Q. So you put an arrow --
` A. Pointing towards the other side.
` Q. On the rightmost yellow structure?
` A. Or nearby.
` Q. Nearby. Okay.
` A. Nearby.
` Q. And did you place a letter near that
` so we can figure out which arrow it is?
` A. I put on the top called "P."
` Q. "P." Okay.
` So you've made some marks on what was
` originally your Exhibit 1002 version of
` Figure 9 --
` A. Right.
` Q. -- to add an "M" and a "P" --
` A. Right.
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` D. Brahmbhatt
` question until now.
` Q. But you did present your testimony in
` this document about the location of the
` interface area; correct?
` A. Yes, sir.
` Q. Okay.
` In this page 23 figure, where would
` you now testify the periphery area is in
` Figure 9?
` MR. SOMMER: I object to form.
` A. Once again, being consistent with the
` '027 patent, the periphery will begin at the
` first yellow line over here that is on the --
` on the extreme right side over here.
` Q. And that's what you've marked with
` the letter "P" and a blue line; correct?
` A. My letter "P" is a little bit beyond
` that in the opening but nearby.
` Q. Okay.
` So in the very close vicinity of
` where you put the "P"?
` A. Close, yes.
` Q. Okay.
` A. Close vicinity. I just wanted to be
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` D. Brahmbhatt
` clear.
` Q. Understood. Thank you.
` A. And, once again, these are, you know,
` these are not the kind of magnifications we
` would see in a real microscopic world, so...
` Q. And, Mr. Brahmbhatt, on the next page
` of your declaration, Exhibit 1002, you have put
` a copy of Figure 10 from the Yuzuriha
` reference; correct?
` MR. SOMMER: I object to form.
` MR. BAUGHMAN: What's the objection?
` MR. SOMMER: In t