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`DEPOSITION OF HENRY HOUH, Ph.D., VOL. II - 12/02/2014
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`APPLE INC.,
`
`Petitioner,
`
`vs.
`
`EVOLUTIONARY INTELLIGENCE,
`LLC,
`
`Patent Owner.
`___________________________ !
`
`Case IPR2014-
`00086
`Patent No.
`7,010,536
`
`VIDEO CONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF
`
`HENRY HOUH, Ph.D.
`
`Tuesday, December 2, 2014
`
`VOLUME II
`
`REPORTED BY: BESS A. AVERY, RMR
`
`NOGARA REPORTING SERVICE
`5 Third Street, Suite 415
`San Francisco, California 94103
`(415) 398-1889
`
`<< NOGARA REPORTING SERVICE >>
`
`189
`
`Apple, Twitter, and Yelp v. Evolutionary Intelligence
`IPR2014-00086 & IPR2014-00812
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1010, p. 189
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`DEPOSITION OF HENRY HOUH, Ph.D., VOL. II - 12/02/2014
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`APPLE INC.,
`
`Petitioner,
`
`vs.
`
`EVOLUTIONARY INTELLIGENCE,
`LLC,
`
`Patent Owner.
`___________________________ !
`
`Case IPR2014-
`00086
`Patent No.
`7,010,536
`
`VIDEO CONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF
`
`HENRY HOUH, Ph.D.
`
`Tuesday, December 2, 2014
`
`VOLUME II
`
`REPORTED BY: BESS A. AVERY, RMR
`
`NOGARA REPORTING SERVICE
`5 Third Street, Suite 415
`San Francisco, California 94103
`(415) 398-1889
`
`<< NOGARA REPORTING SERVICE >>
`
`189
`
`Apple, Twitter, and Yelp v. Evolutionary Intelligence
`IPR2014-00086 & IPR2014-00812
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1010, p. 189
`
`
`
`DEPOSITION OF HENRY HOUH, Ph.D., VOL. II = 12/02/2014
`
`WITNESS
`
`DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
`
`I N D E X
`
`HENRY HOUH, Ph.D.
`
`BY MR. PATEK
`
`197
`
`AFTERNOON SESSION
`
`Page 275
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`E X H I B I T S
`
`(None marked)
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`* * * *
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`<< NOGARA REPORTING SERVICE >>
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`190
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`Apple, Twitter, and Yelp v. Evolutionary Intelligence
`IPR2014-00086 & IPR2014-00812
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1010, p. 190
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`DEPOSITION OF HENRY HOUH, Ph.D., VOL. II - 12/02/2014
`
`BE IT REMEMBERED THAT, pursuant to Notice of Taking
`
`Deposition and on Tuesday, December 2, 2014,
`
`commencing at the hour of 11:03 a.m. thereof, at the
`
`Law Offices of Sidley Austin LLP, 1501 K Street,
`
`Washington, D.C.
`
`20005, before me, Bess A. Avery,
`
`Registered Merit Reporter, personally appeared.
`
`HENRY HOUH, Ph.D.,
`
`called as a witness by the Patent Owner Evolutionary
`
`Intelligence, LLC, having been by me first duly
`
`sworn, was examined and testified as hereinafter set
`
`forth.
`
`APPEARANCE OF COUNSEL
`
`FOR APPLE INC.
`
`SIDLEY AUSTIN LLP
`
`1501 K Street, NW
`
`Washington, D.C. 20005
`
`BY:
`
`THOMAS A. BROUGHAN III, ESQ.
`
`202.736.8314
`
`tbroughan@sidley.com
`
`(Continued on page 192)
`
`<< NOGARA REPORTING SERVICE >>
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`191
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`Apple, Twitter, and Yelp v. Evolutionary Intelligence
`IPR2014-00086 & IPR2014-00812
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1010, p. 191
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`DEPOSITION OF HENRY HOUH, Ph.D., VOL. II - 12/02/2014
`
`FOR EVOLUTIONARY INTELLIGENCE,
`
`INC.
`
`GUTRIDE SAFIER LLP
`
`100 Pine Street, Suite 1250
`
`San Francisco, CA
`
`94111
`
`BY~ ANTHONY J. PATEK, ESQ.
`
`415.639.9090 (Appearing via video conference)
`
`anthony@gutridessafier.com
`
`FOR TWITTER,
`
`INC. AND YELP,
`
`INC.
`
`KILPATRICK TOWNSEND & STOCKTON LLP
`
`100 Peachtree Street, NE, Suite 2800
`
`Atlanta, GA
`
`30309
`
`BY: WAB KADABAu ESQ.
`
`404.532.6959
`
`wkadaba@kilpatricktownsend.com - and
`
`(Continued on page 193)
`
`<< NOGARA REPORTING SERVICE >>
`
`192
`
`Apple, Twitter, and Yelp v. Evolutionary Intelligence
`IPR2014-00086 & IPR2014-00812
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1010, p. 192
`
`
`
`DEPOSITION OF HENRY HOUH, Ph.D., VOL. II - 12/02/2014
`
`FOR TWITTER,
`
`INC. AND YELP,
`
`INC.
`
`KILPATRICK TOWNSEND & STOCKTON LLP
`
`1080 Marsh Road
`
`Menlo Park, CA
`
`94025
`
`BY: ROBERT ARTUZ, ESQ.
`
`650.462.5336
`
`(Appearing via telephone)
`
`rartuz@kilpatricktownsend.com
`
`Also Present:
`
`James Bullock, Videographer
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`<< NOGARA REPORTING SERVICE >>
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`193
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`Apple, Twitter, and Yelp v. Evolutionary Intelligence
`IPR2014-00086 & IPR2014-00812
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1010, p. 193
`
`
`
`DEPOSITION OF HENRY HOUH, Ph.D., VOL. II - 12/02/2014
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`P R 0 C E E D I N G S
`
`THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going on the
`
`video record. Today is the date of December the
`
`11:03AM
`
`11:03AM
`
`2nd, 2014. We are located at the offices of Sidley
`
`11:03AM
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`Austin, 1501 K Street, Northwest, Washington, D.C.
`
`11:03AM
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`We are taking the deposition of Mr. Henry Houh in
`
`11:04AM
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`the United States Patent and Trademark Office. The
`
`11:04AM
`
`case is Apple Inc -- Inc. versus Evolutionary
`
`Intelligence, Case Number IPR2014-00086.
`
`11:04AM
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`11:04AM
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`And the videotape is being produced on
`
`11:04AM
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`behalf of Anthony Patek. My name is James Bullock.
`
`11:04AM
`
`Our court reporter is Bess Avery. We are both
`
`11:04AM
`
`appearing on behalf of Nogara Reporting Service
`
`11:04AM
`
`located at 5 Third Street, Suite 415, San Francisco.
`
`11:04AM
`
`Telephone is number is (415) 398-1889.
`
`11:04AM
`
`At this time, I would like to ask the
`
`11:04AM
`
`persons present to introduce themselves for the
`
`11:04AM
`
`record. Please state your name, the firm you are
`
`11:04AM
`
`working for, the location of the firm, and whom you
`
`11:04AM
`
`are rep- -- representing in this matter.
`
`11:04AM
`
`MR. BROUGHAN:
`
`Thomas Broughan of Sidley
`
`11:05AM
`
`Austin in Washington, D.C., on behalf of Apple.
`
`11:05AM
`
`MR. PATEK: This is Anthony Patek from
`
`11:05AM
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`Gutride Safier LLP appearing on behalf of
`
`Evolutionary Intelligence.
`
`11:05AM
`
`11:05AM
`
`<< NOGARA REPORTING SERVICE >>
`
`194
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`Apple, Twitter, and Yelp v. Evolutionary Intelligence
`IPR2014-00086 & IPR2014-00812
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1010, p. 194
`
`
`
`DEPOSITION OF HENRY HOUH, Ph.D., VOL. II - 12/02/2014
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`MR. KADABA: This is Wab Kadaba with the
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`11:05AM
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`firm of Kilpatrick Townsend & Stockton, and I'm
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`11:05AM
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`appearing in the joint proceeding 2014 -(cid:173)
`
`IPR2014-00816, which is -- or sorry, 00812.
`
`So that's IPR2014-00812 on behalf of
`
`Petitioners, Twitter, Inc., and Yelp, Inc.
`
`11:05AM
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`11:05AM
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`11:05AM
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`11:05AM
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`And, Counsel, I believe you had noticed
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`11:05AM
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`this deposition for both proceedings.
`
`Is that
`
`correct?
`
`MR. PATEK: That is correct.
`
`11:05AM
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`11:05AM
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`11:05AM
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`MR. ARTUZ: This is Rob Artuz on the line
`
`11:06AM
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`with the law firm of Kilpatrick, Townsend & Stockton 11:06AM
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`appearing on the phone from Menlo Park, California,
`
`11:06AM
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`and also appearing in the same IPR proceeding as
`
`11:06AM
`
`Mr. Kadaba.
`
`THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you.
`
`11:06AM
`
`11:06AM
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`Andu Mr. Houh, are you aware that this
`
`11:06AM
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`deposition is being videotaped?
`
`THE WITNESS: Yes, I am.
`
`11:06AM
`
`11:06AM
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`THE VIDEOGRAPHER: And that you are still
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`11:06AM
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`under oath?
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`THE WITNESS: Yes, I am.
`
`THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you.
`
`11:06AM
`
`11:06AM
`
`11:06AM
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`We are following the California Code of
`
`11:06AM
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`Civil Procedureu Section 2025 Federal Rule.
`
`11:06AM
`
`<< NOGARA REPORTING SERVICE >>
`
`195
`
`Apple, Twitter, and Yelp v. Evolutionary Intelligence
`IPR2014-00086 & IPR2014-00812
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1010, p. 195
`
`
`
`DEPOSITION OF HENRY HOUH, Ph.D., VOL. II ~ 12/02/2014
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`Are there any stipulations that you would
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`11~06AM
`
`like to put on the record?
`
`MR. PATEK: None for Evolutionary
`
`Intelligence at this point.
`
`11~06AM
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`11~06AM
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`11~06AM
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`MR. BROUGHAN~ So this is under California 11~06AM
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`law?
`
`THE VIDEOGRAPHER~ That is my
`
`understanding.
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`11~06AM
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`11~06AM
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`11~06AM
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`MR. BROUGHAN~ I mean, to the extent ~~ I
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`11~06AM
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`mean, we would prefer that it be under D.C. law
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`11~06AM
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`since we are sitting here in D.C. But to the extent 11~06AM
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`there's a dispute
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`I can't imagine there being a
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`11~06AM
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`dispute over this later on but ...
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`11~07AM
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`MR. PATEK~ Yeah. To be honest, this is
`
`11~07AM
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`news to me. Since it's a federal proceeding, I
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`11~07AM
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`can't imagine it's going to matter one way or the
`
`11~07AM
`
`other. So I'm fine with it being under D.C. local
`
`11~07AM
`
`law. Or it's going to be under Federal Rules or
`
`11~07AM
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`PTAB Rules so
`
`11~07AM
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`MR. BROUGHAN~ Right, right. To ~~ to ~~
`
`11~07AM
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`MR. PATEK~
`
`from home.
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`MR. BROUGHAN~ Yeah, to the ~~ okay.
`
`Great. Thanks.
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`11:07AM
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`11~07AM
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`11~07AM
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`MR. PATEK: Yeah, I think we're cov= ~~ I
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`11~07AM
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`think we're governed by the PTAB's Trial Practice
`
`11:07AM
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`<< NOGARA REPORTING SERVICE >>
`
`196
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`Apple, Twitter, and Yelp v. Evolutionary Intelligence
`IPR2014-00086 & IPR2014-00812
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1010, p. 196
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`DEPOSITION OF HENRY HOUH, Ph.D., VOL. II - 12/02/2014
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`Guidelines so...
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`11:07AM
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`MR. BROUGHAN: Yeah, I think so, too. But
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`11:07AM
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`just to the extent that local rules would come into
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`11:07AM
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`play, the ones here rather than there. Okay?
`
`MR. PATEK: That 1 s fine.
`
`MR. BROUGHAN: Great.
`
`11:07AM
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`11: 07AM
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`11:07AM
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`THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Okay. All right.
`
`This 11:07AM
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`video deposition is ready to begin.
`
`The attorneys may proceed.
`
`HENRY HOUH, Ph.D.,
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`11:07AM
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`11:07AM
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`11:07AM
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`been having previously duly sworn, testified as
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`11:07AM
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`follows:
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`DIRECT EXAMINATION
`
`BY MR. PATEK:
`
`Q
`
`Okay. So, Dr. Houh, this is Anthony
`
`Patek. Good morning.
`
`Good morning, Mr. Patek.
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`A
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`Q
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`11:07AM
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`11:07AM
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`11:07AM
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`11:07AM
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`11:07AM
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`11:07AM
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`So I'm just -- you understand that you're
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`11:07AM
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`here today being deposed regarding the declaration
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`11:07AM
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`that was submitted in support of petitioner's reply?
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`11:07AM
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`A
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`I understand that this is a supplemental
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`11:08AM
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`dec-
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`declaration.
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`Is that what you mean?
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`Q
`
`Yes.
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`11:08AM
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`11:08AM
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`11:08AM
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`All right. Did you do any preparation for 11:08AM
`
`<< NOGARA REPORTING SERVICE >>
`
`197
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`Apple, Twitter, and Yelp v. Evolutionary Intelligence
`IPR2014-00086 & IPR2014-00812
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1010, p. 197
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`DEPOSITION OF HENRY HOUH, Ph.D., VOL. II = 12/02/2014
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`the deposition today?
`
`11~08AM
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`MR. BROUGHAN~ Hold on.
`
`I caution the
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`11~08AM
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`witness
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`I'll == I'll object to the question to
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`11~08AM
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`the extent it seeks protected information such as
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`11~08AM
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`information related to the preparation of his report 11~08AM
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`or communications with counsel.
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`And, you know, I instruct you not to
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`11~08AM
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`11~08AM
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`answer in a way that would reveal such information.
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`11~08AM
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`Subject to that, you can go ahead.
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`THE WITNESS~ I did prepare, yes.
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`BY MR. PATEK~
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`Q
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`Okay. About how long did you spend
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`preparing for the deposition?
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`Maybe 20 hours.
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`A
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`Q
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`11~08AM
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`11~08AM
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`11~08AM
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`11~08AM
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`11~08AM
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`11~08AM
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`All right. Did you review any materials
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`11~08AM
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`for the deposition?
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`A
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`Q
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`Yes, I did.
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`Okay. Can you identify for me what
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`materials you reviewed?
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`11~08AM
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`11~08AM
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`11~08AM
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`11~08AM
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`MR. BROUGHAN~ And just sort of == again,
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`11~08AM
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`the same objection as long as
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`11~08AM
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`Please don't reveal any communications
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`11~08AM
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`with counsel. And subject to that, you can answer
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`11~08AM
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`the question.
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`11~09AM
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`THE WITNESS~ I reviewed my supplemental
`
`11~09AM
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`<< NOGARA REPORTING SERVICE >>
`
`198
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`Apple, Twitter, and Yelp v. Evolutionary Intelligence
`IPR2014-00086 & IPR2014-00812
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1010, p. 198
`
`
`
`DEPOSITION OF HENRY HOUH, Ph.D., VOL. II - 12/02/2014
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`declaration.
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`I reviewed my original declaration.
`
`I
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`11:09AM
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`reviewed the Gibbs patent.
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`I reviewed the
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`11:09AM
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`patent-in-suit, the DeAngelo patent.
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`I reviewed the 11:09AM
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`institution decision.
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`I reviewed the
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`11:09AM
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`petitioner's -- sorry
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`the patent owner's reply,
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`11:09AM
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`the pat-
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`the Petitioner's response.
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`I reviewed portions of the Green
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`11:09AM
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`11:09AM
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`deposition transcript.
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`I reviewed portions of my
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`11:09AM
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`deportion -- my deposition transcript.
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`I reviewed
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`11:09AM
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`portions of the Gibbs declaration -- excuse me
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`11:09AM
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`the Green dec- -- Dr. Green's declaration, not
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`I
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`may have said Gibbs deposition transcript; I meant
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`11:09AM
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`Green deposition transcript.
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`11:09AM
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`I think that's what I reviewed.
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`I think
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`11:09AM
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`that's the list.
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`BY MR. PATEK:
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`11:09AM
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`11:10AM
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`Q
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`Okay. Do you remember which-- okay. Can 11:10AM
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`you identify for me what portions of the Green
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`deposition transcript you reviewed?
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`11:10AM
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`11:10AM
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`A
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`I reviewed portions that I cited in -= in
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`11:10AM
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`my supplemental declaration, and I may have looked
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`11:10AM
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`at a few other portions as well, maybe cited in
`
`other parts somewhere.
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`That's at least what I reviewed.
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`Q
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`Okay. And about how much time did you
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`11:10AM
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`11:10AM
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`11:10AM
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`11:10AM
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`<< NOGARA REPORTING SERVICE >>
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`199
`
`Apple, Twitter, and Yelp v. Evolutionary Intelligence
`IPR2014-00086 & IPR2014-00812
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1010, p. 199
`
`
`
`DEPOSITION OF HENRY HOUH, Ph.D., VOL. II ~ 12/02/2014
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`spend drafting your supplemental declaration?
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`MR. BROUGHAN: Again, I'll object to the
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`extent this seeks protected information such as
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`information related to the preparation of his report 11:10AM
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`or communications with counsel.
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`I instruct ~~ Dr. Houh, I instruct you not 11:10AM
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`to answer in such a way that would reveal such
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`information. But subject to that, go ahead and
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`answer.
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`THE WITNESS: Yeah.
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`I don't ~~ I don't
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`11:10AM
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`recall how ~~ how long it took.
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`BY MR. PATEK:
`
`Q
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`A
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`You have no idea, not even roughly?
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`Oh, I ~~ I can give you an order of
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`11:10AM
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`11:10AM
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`11:11AM
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`magnitude ballpark probably, but I ~~ I ~- I can't
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`say exactly how long.
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`It ~~ I don't even remember
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`the time frame around it at ~~ at the moment.
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`11:11AM
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`Q
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`So meaning you don't remember when it was
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`submitted?
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`A
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`You know,
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`I looked at the date.
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`I ~~ you
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`know,
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`I -- I do a lot of different work.
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`So I ~~ I
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`11:11AM
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`don't recall.
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`I don't recall at the ~~ at the
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`11:11AM
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`moment, you know, when it -- when it was exactly.
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`11:11AM
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`Q
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`All right. So just in terms of order of
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`11:11AM
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`magnitude, I mean, just a rough estimate, how long
`
`11:11AM
`
`<< NOGARA REPORTING SERVICE >>
`
`200
`
`Apple, Twitter, and Yelp v. Evolutionary Intelligence
`IPR2014-00086 & IPR2014-00812
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1010, p. 200
`
`
`
`DEPOSITION OF HENRY HOUH, Ph.D., VOL. II - 12/02/2014
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`do you think you spent preparing the supplemental
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`declaration?
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`A
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`I
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`it probably would have been, you
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`know, 20 to 50 hours.
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`I -- I can't remember
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`exactly, probably in that ballpark. It's an
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`estimate.
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`Q
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`Okay. Did you do any supplemental
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`11:11AM
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`11:11AM
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`11:11AM
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`11:11AM
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`research for the supplemental declaration, by which,
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`I mean, did you look at any materials outside of the
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`materials that you've already identified as having
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`11:12AM
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`reviewed for the deposition today?
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`11:12AM
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`A
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`I don't recall exactly, but I wouldn't --
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`11:12AM
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`I -- I think I would have at least looked at, you
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`know, some or all of the materials that I listed
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`11:12AM
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`today, the ones that were available to me at the
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`11:12AM
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`time.
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`11:12AM
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`Q
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`Okay. Did you do any research in terms of 11:12AM
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`looking at textbooks about object-oriented
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`programming?
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`11:12AM
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`11:12AM
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`A
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`I don't -- I don't recall.
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`I don't think
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`11:12AM
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`so.
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`Q
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`Did you do any research in terms of
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`11:12AM
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`11:12AM
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`looking at any independent materials relating to
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`11:12AM
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`object-oriented programming?
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`MR. BROUGHAN: Objection, form.
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`11:12AM
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`11:13AM
`
`<< NOGARA REPORTING SERVICE >>
`
`201
`
`Apple, Twitter, and Yelp v. Evolutionary Intelligence
`IPR2014-00086 & IPR2014-00812
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1010, p. 201
`
`
`
`DEPOSITION OF HENRY HOUH, Ph.D., VOL. II - 12/02/2014
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`THE WITNESS~ I -- it's possible.
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`I
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`don't -- I don't recall exactly.
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`BY MR. PATEK~
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`11~13AM
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`11~13AM
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`11~13AM
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`Q
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`So you can't remember whether or not you
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`11~13AM
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`looked at any research articles?
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`11~13AM
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`A
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`If I relied on something as the basis of
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`11~13AM
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`my opinions, I think I would have included that in
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`11~13AM
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`my declaration. But, you know, it's just what
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`people of ordinary skill and based on my own
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`background in -- in object-oriented pro(cid:173)
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`programming practices.
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`11~13AM
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`11~13AM
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`11~13AM
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`11~13AM
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`Q
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`Okay.
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`So does that mean that you looked
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`11~13AM
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`at any other materials or no?
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`11~13AM
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`A
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`I may have to refresh, you know, my memory
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`11~13AM
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`on certain things. But, you know,
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`I have a
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`11~13AM
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`background in object-oriented programming myself,
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`11~13AM
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`and so, you know, if ~~ if I would have relied on
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`11~13AM
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`something, I believe I would have cited it.
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`11~13AM
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`Q
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`Okay. And can you identify anyplace in
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`11~14AM
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`your supplemental declaration where you identify
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`11~14AM
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`such other material?
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`MR. BROUGHAN~ Objection, form.
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`11~14AM
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`11~14AM
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`THE WITNESS~ May I take a quick look at
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`11:14AM
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`my supplemental declaration, please?
`
`BY MR. PATEK~
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`11~14AM
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`11~14AM
`
`<< NOGARA REPORTING SERVICE >>
`
`202
`
`Apple, Twitter, and Yelp v. Evolutionary Intelligence
`IPR2014-00086 & IPR2014-00812
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1010, p. 202
`
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`DEPOSITION OF HENRY HOUH, Ph.D., VOL. II ~ 12/02/2014
`
`Q Well, do you remember, off the top of your 11:14AM
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`head, if you did?
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`11:14AM
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`A
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`To my recollection ~~ to the best of my
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`11:14AM
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`recollection, I don't think I did other than what's
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`11:14AM
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`cited, no.
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`Okay.
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`Yeah.
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`Q
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`A
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`Q
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`11:14AM
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`11:14AM
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`11:14AM
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`Okay. Do you remember testimony in your
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`11:14AM
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`dec~
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`supplemental declaration stating that: A
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`11:14AM
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`person of ordinary skill in the art would understand 11:14AM
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`that a logically defined data enclosure covers more
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`11:14AM
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`than just a logical description of another
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`container?
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`11:14AM
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`11:14AM
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`A
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`Q
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`I don't remember the exact words I used.
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`11:14AM
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`But do you remember testifying ~~ or
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`11:15AM
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`providing testimony in your supplemental declaration
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`11:15AM
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`on that general topic?
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`MR. BROUGHAN: Objection, form.
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`11:15AM
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`11:15AM
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`THE WITNESS: Generally, I think I ~~ I
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`11:15AM
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`provided some testimony using some of the words that 11:15AM
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`you used there.
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`BY MR. PATEK:
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`11:15AM
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`11:15AM
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`Q
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`All right. But you do ~~ you did provide
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`11:15AM
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`your testimony from the perspective of a person of
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`11:15AM
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`ordinary skill in the art? Yes or no?
`
`11:15AM
`
`<< NOGARA REPORTING SERVICE >>
`
`203
`
`Apple, Twitter, and Yelp v. Evolutionary Intelligence
`IPR2014-00086 & IPR2014-00812
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1010, p. 203
`
`
`
`DEPOSITION OF HENRY HOUH, Ph.D., VOL. II ~ 12/02/2014
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`MR. BROUGHAN: Objection, form.
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`11:15AM
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`THE WITNESS: My opinions were based on
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`11:15AM
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`what a person of ordinary skill in the art at the
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`11:15AM
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`time would have understood and known, and ~~ and
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`11:15AM
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`it's based on that person.
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`BY MR. PATEK:
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`11:15AM
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`11:15AM
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`Q
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`Okay. Do you remember testifying in your
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`11:15AM
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`prior deposition that you did not remember whether
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`11:15AM
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`or not there was an accepted definition of
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`11:15AM
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`"encapsulated" within object~oriented programming?
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`11:15AM
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`MR. BROUGHAN: Objection, foundation.
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`11:15AM
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`THE WITNESS:
`
`I recall a discussion or
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`11:16AM
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`or reading something somewhere about encapsulation
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`11:16AM
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`in terms of data networking, which I did remember we
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`either talked about or came up at some point. So
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`11:16AM
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`I -- I believe there was a discussion around, for
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`11:16AM
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`example, encapsulated data network packets or
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`something generally like that.
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`11:16AM
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`11:16AM
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`I don't recall how far we got with respect
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`to object~oriented programming.
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`BY MR. PATEK:
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`11:16AM
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`11:16AM
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`Q
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`So you don't remember what your testimony
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`11:16AM
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`was one way or the other?
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`MR. BROUGHAN: Objection, form.
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`11:16AM
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`11:16AM
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`THE WITNESS: Well, I think I just told
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`11:16AM
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`<< NOGARA REPORTING SERVICE >>
`
`204
`
`Apple, Twitter, and Yelp v. Evolutionary Intelligence
`IPR2014-00086 & IPR2014-00812
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1010, p. 204
`
`
`
`DEPOSITION OF HENRY HOUH, Ph.D., VOL. II - 12/02/2014
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`you what I believe I testified about, but that
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`11:16AM
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`that -- that deposition was a while ago, and I don't
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`recall everything I said at it right -- right now.
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`11:16AM
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`I mean, if you'd like to point me to a
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`part of my transcript, I'd be happy to take a look
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`11:16AM
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`at it.
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`BY MR. PATEK:
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`11:16AM
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`11:16AM
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`Q
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`That's okay. Maybe we'll do that later.
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`11:16AM
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`For now, I just want to ask, did you go
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`11:16AM
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`back and refresh your memory on whether or not there 11:17AM
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`was a definition for "encapsulated" within
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`object-oriented programming after your first
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`deposition?
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`MR. BROUGHAN: Objection, form.
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`11:17AM
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`11:17AM
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`11:17AM
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`11:17AM
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`THE WITNESS:
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`I don't recall doing that.
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`11:17AM
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`BY MR. PATEK:
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`11:17AM
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`Q
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`Okay.
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`So would it be fair to say that
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`11:17AM
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`your supplemental declaration does not rely on an
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`11:17AM
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`updated understanding of what the word
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`"encapsulated" means from the perspective of a
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`person of ordinary skill in the art of
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`object-oriented programming?
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`MR. BROUGHAN: Objection, form.
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`11:17AM
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`11:17AM
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`11:17AM
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`11:17AM
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`11:17AM
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`THE WITNESS: No,
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`I
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`I don't think I
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`11:17AM
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`would have changed my opinion or -- or anything
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`11:17AM
`
`<< NOGARA REPORTING SERVICE >>
`
`205
`
`Apple, Twitter, and Yelp v. Evolutionary Intelligence
`IPR2014-00086 & IPR2014-00812
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1010, p. 205
`
`
`
`DEPOSITION OF HENRY HOUH, Ph.D., VOL. II - 12/02/2014
`
`based on anything.
`
`I -- I -- I think I've been
`
`pretty consistent.
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`BY MR. PATEK:
`
`Q
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`Okay. And do you remember providing
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`11:17AM
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`11:17AM
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`11:17AM
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`11:17AM
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`testimony in your supplemental declaration regarding
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`11:17AM
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`examples of things that would be logically defined
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`11:17AM
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`data enclosures?
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`11:18AM
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`MR. BROUGHAN: Objection, foundation.
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`11:18AM
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`THE WITNESS:
`
`I recall providing a list in 11:18AM
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`my supplemental declaration.
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`I'm not sure it's
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`11:18AM
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`exactly how you characterized it using the words you
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`11:18AM
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`used.
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`11:18AM
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`But if -- if you'd show me my supplemental
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`11:18AM
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`declaration, I think I can point you to the
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`11:18AM
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`paragraph, or maybe you're looking at it right now.
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`11:18AM
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`BY MR. PATEK:
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`11:18AM
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`Q
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`Right.
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`So can you identify for me what a
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`11:18AM
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`class interface is?
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`11:18AM
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`MR. BROUGHAN: Objection, foundation,
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`11:18AM
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`form.
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`11:18AM
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`THE WITNESS: Do you mean with respect to
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`11:18AM
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`object-oriented programming?
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`BY MR. PATEK:
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`11:18AM
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`11:18AM
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`Q
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`I mean with respect to whatever it was you
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`11:18AM
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`were discussing in your supplemental declaration.
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`11:18AM
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`<< NOGARA REPORTING SERVICE >>
`
`206
`
`Apple, Twitter, and Yelp v. Evolutionary Intelligence
`IPR2014-00086 & IPR2014-00812
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1010, p. 206
`
`
`
`DEPOSITION OF HENRY HOUH, Ph.D., VOL. II - 12/02/2014
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`A
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`Well, so could you show me that -- that
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`11:18AM
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`that line, please, so I know exact -- the exact
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`11:18AM
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`context.
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`11:18AM
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`Q
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`Actually, I would prefer not to.
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`I just
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`11:18AM
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`want to see whether or not you can explain for me
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`11:19AM
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`what a class interface is based on your memory.
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`MR. BROUGHAN: Objection, form,
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`foundation.
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`11:19AM
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`11:19AM
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`11:19AM
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`THE WITNESS:
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`I'm just going to generally
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`11:19AM
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`talk about object-oriented programming and what I
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`11:19AM
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`understand a class and a class interface to be in
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`11:19AM
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`general object-oriented programming principles.
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`11:19AM
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`So generally speaking, in
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`in
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`11:19AM
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`object-oriented programming, there are these things
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`11:19AM
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`called classes which are objects that have certain
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`11:19AM
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`properties in an object-oriented program. They can
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`11:19AM
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`inherit from other classes, they can be inherited
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`11:19AM
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`from.
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`11:19AM
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`But they generally describe a type of
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`11:19AM
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`object or a class, a class of object, a type of
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`11:19AM
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`object that
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`that has similarities to each other
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`11:19AM
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`and -- and can be named and can be used. And
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`and 11:19AM
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`a -- a class interface would be the set of-- of
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`11:19AM
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`public -- publicly accessible methods within a class 11:19AM
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`that would -- would cause class instantiations to
`
`11:20AM
`
`<< NOGARA REPORTING SERVICE >>
`
`207
`
`Apple, Twitter, and Yelp v. Evolutionary Intelligence
`IPR2014-00086 & IPR2014-00812
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1010, p. 207
`
`
`
`DEPOSITION OF HENRY HOUH, Ph.D., VOL. II ~ 12/02/2014
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`execute, you know, some sort of code or return
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`values.
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`So generally speaking, in object~oriented
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`programming, that's ~~ that's ~~ that's what I ~~my 11:20AM
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`understanding of a class interface.
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`BY MR. PATEK:
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`11:20AM
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`Q
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`Okay. And how would you create a class
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`interface?
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`MR. BROUGHAN: Objection, relevance, form.
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`11:20AM
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`THE WITNESS: Again, I'm going to be
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`11:20AM
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`generally talking about object~oriented programming.
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`And, one, you know, it depends on the exact syntax
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`of the specific object~oriented programming language 11:20AM
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`you're using, but there are generally ways of
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`declaring and defining classes and de~ ~~ declaring
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`and defining the public methods of a class.
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`And so you would use a ~-you~~ you could 11:20AM
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`use a text editor and start typing.
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`It would have
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`to be syntactically correct for the compiler that
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`you're using, but you could type the dec~ ~~ the
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`class of declarations and all. And, of course,
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`you'd need all the other things in order to compile
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`the ~- the ~- the code itself.
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`11:21AM
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`But, you know, if you just want to declare 11:21AM
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`a class and define it and define ~~ and ~~ and ~~
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`11:21AM
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`<< NOGARA REPORTING SERVICE >>
`
`208
`
`Apple, Twitter, and Yelp v. Evolutionary Intelligence
`IPR2014-00086 & IPR2014-00812
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1010, p. 208
`
`
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`DEPOSITION OF HENRY HOUH, Ph.D., VOL. II - 12/02/2014
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`and write some -- some -- some of the interface
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`11:21AM
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`methods, then you could just start typing.
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`So
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`that's how a programmer would-- would define a
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`class interface or -- or create one.
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`BY MR. PATEK:
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`Q
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`And is it your understanding that in
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`creating a class interface, you could nest
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`containers within the class interface?
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`11:21AM
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`11:21AM
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`11:21AM
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`11:21AM
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`11:21AM
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`MR. BROUGHAN: Objection, form, relevance.
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`11:21AM
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`THE WITNESS: Well, in
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`in
`
`in
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`11:21AM
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`11:21AM
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`generally speaking, in object-oriented programming
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`methods, one can declare a class and de- -- and
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`11:21AM
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`declare members -- members of the class. Members
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`11:21AM
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`may be things such as variables or references to
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`11:21AM
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`other objects. They could be -- you can actually
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`copy in or create member =- member things as classes
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`11:22AM
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`and == and -= and have them resident inside a
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`specific instance of a class.
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`Or, again, I want to just draw the
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`distinction between how you define a class and what
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`11:22AM
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`you say is -= is part of it. And when you actually
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`run a -- a program and you instantiate a class and
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`11:22AM
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`you -- you create a new object inside the class,
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`then =- then, you know, another object would be
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`11:22AM
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`11:22AM
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`<< NOGARA REPORTING SERVICE >>
`
`209
`
`Apple, Twitter, and Yelp v. Evolutionary Intelligence
`IPR2014-00086 & IPR2014-00812
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1010, p. 209
`
`
`
`DEPOSITION OF HENRY HOUH, Ph.D., VOL. II - 12/02/2014
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`contained inside an in- -- a particular
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`instantiation.
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`BY MR. PATEK:
`
`11:22AM
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`11:22AM
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`11:22AM
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`Q
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`So when you talk about declaring things
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`11:22AM
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`within a class, what do you mean?
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`11:22AM
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`MR. BROUGHAN~ Objection, form, relevance.
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`11:22AM
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`THE WITNESS: Well, sometimes -- well, I
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`11:22AM
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`mean, classes have state. You can create classes
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`11:23AM
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`that have state, and states are contained in -- in a
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`11:23AM
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`description of the class. But when you instantiate
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`11:23AM
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`it, the -- the -- the -- the state variables or
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`11:23AM
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`member variables or whatever the objects are that
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`11:23AM
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`are declared to be -- you know, part of the members
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`11:23AM
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`of that class get instantiated and -- and have value
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`11:23AM
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`that would be separate and distinct from other
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`11:23AM
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`instantiations of that class in an object-oriented
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`11:23AM
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`program that's running.
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`Of course, these are all abstract
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`11:23AM
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`11:23AM
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`concepts.
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`In an actual program that's running, the
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`11:23AM
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`program that's running is compiled code. That's
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`11:23AM
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`machine code for a particular processor or a
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`11:23AM
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`platform, and that code itself doesn't understand
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`11:23AM
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`what class members are.
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`It just executes
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`11:23AM
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`instructions that the compiler put in to access what
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`11:23AM
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`the compiler understands the objects to be, but in a
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`11:23AM
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`<< NOGARA REPORTING SERVICE >>
`
`210
`
`Apple, Twitter, and Yelp v. Evolutionary Intelligence
`IPR2014-00086 & IPR2014-00812
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1010, p. 210
`
`
`
`DEPOSITION OF HENRY HOUH, Ph.D., VOL. II ~ 12/02/2014
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`running system, it's just commands to a processor.
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`11:24AM
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`BY MR. PATEK:
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`11:24AM
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`Q
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`Okay. But the commands are executed based 11:24AM
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`on the code as written. Correct?
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`11:24AM
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`MR. BROUGHAN: Objection, relevance, form.
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`11:24AM
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`THE WITNESS: Well, when someone, you
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`11:24AM
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`know, is programming an object~oriented code, it
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`11:24AM
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`typically would be compiled, and then, you know,
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`11:24AM
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`there's other instructions that aren't directly
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`11:24AM
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`those ~~ those instructions that the programmer was
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`11:24AM
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`typing but ~~ but that are able to ~~ the compiler
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`11:24AM
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`is able to translate the ~~ the
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`the style of
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`11:24AM
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`language, the input language, the object~oriented
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`11:24AM
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`programming language into, you know, a target
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`11:24AM
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`processor or ~~ or platform by code instructions for
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`11:24AM
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`a processor.
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`11:24AM
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`And ~~ and so that code isn't aware of any
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`11:24AM
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`of these concepts.
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`It's ~~ it's really, you know,
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`11:24AM
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`the tra~
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`translation between, you know, someone
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`11:25AM
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`who defines the language and who writes the language
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`11:25AM
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`and ~~ and the compiler which understands that
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`11:25AM
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`language that knows how to take and translate one
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`11:25AM
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`form of computer programming instructions into
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`11:25AM
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`another form of computer programming instructions
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`11:25AM
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`which can be directly executed by a processor or ~~
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`11:25AM
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`<< NOGARA REPORTING SERVICE >>
`
`211
`
`Apple, Twitter, and Yelp v. Evolutionary Intelligence
`IPR2014-00086 & IPR2014-00812
`P
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