MICHAEL NRANIAN - VOLUME II
`IN THE UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 196
`
`TOYOTA MOTOR CORP.,
` Petitioner,
` vs. Case IPR2013-00483
`LEROY G. HAGENBUCH, Patent U.S. 8,014,917
` Patent Owner.
`_______________________/
`
` VOLUME II
` ORAL DEPOSITION OF MICHAEL NRANIAN
` CHICAGO, ILLINOIS
` FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 19, 2014
`
`REPORTED BY:
`DEBORAH HABIAN, CSR, RMR, CRR, CBC
`JOB NO. 82994
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`1
`2
`3
`
`4 5
`
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`TOYOTA Ex. 1123, page 1
`Toyota v. Hagenbuch
`IPR2013-00638
`
`
`IN THE UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 196
`
`TOYOTA MOTOR CORP.,
` Petitioner,
` vs. Case IPR2013-00483
`LEROY G. HAGENBUCH, Patent U.S. 8,014,917
` Patent Owner.
`_______________________/
`
` VOLUME II
` ORAL DEPOSITION OF MICHAEL NRANIAN
` CHICAGO, ILLINOIS
` FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 19, 2014
`
`REPORTED BY:
`DEBORAH HABIAN, CSR, RMR, CRR, CBC
`JOB NO. 82994
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`1
`2
`3
`
`4 5
`
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`TOYOTA Ex. 1123, page 1
`Toyota v. Hagenbuch
`IPR2013-00638
`
`
`
` MICHAEL NRANIAN - VOLUME II
`
`Page 197
`
` September 19, 2014
` 9:35 A.M. CST
`
` Oral deposition of MICHAEL NRANIAN,
`held at the offices of Freeborn & Peters, LLP,
`311 South Wacker Drive, Suite 3000, Chicago,
`Illinois, pursuant to notice before
`Deborah Habian, CSR, RMR, CRR, CLR.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`1
`
`2 3 4 5 6
`
`7
`
`8 9
`
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`TOYOTA Ex. 1123, page 2
`Toyota v. Hagenbuch
`IPR2013-00638
`
`
`
`Page 198
`
` MICHAEL NRANIAN - VOLUME II
` A P P E A R A N C E S
`
`ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER:
` OBLON SPIVAK McCLELLAND MAIER & NEUSTADT
` BY: ROBERT MATTSON
` THOMAS YEBERNETSKY
` 1940 Duke Street
` Alexandria, Virginia 22314
`
`
`ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER:
` FREEBORN & PETERS
` BY: JONATHAN HILL
` 311 South Wacker Drive
` Chicago, Illinois 60606
`
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`1
`2
`
`3 4
`
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`TOYOTA Ex. 1123, page 3
`Toyota v. Hagenbuch
`IPR2013-00638
`
`
`
`Page 199
`
` MICHAEL NRANIAN - VOLUME II
` I N D E X
`WITNESS: PAGE
` MICHAEL NRANIAN
` Exam by Mr. Mattson ........... 200
`
` PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS
`NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
`Exhibit 1101 U.S. Patent 8,014,917 201
`
`Exhibit 1103 Aoyanagi reference 220
`
`Exhibit 1110 Steiner reference 200
`
`Exhibit 2060 Declaration of Michael 201
` Naranian
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`
`6 7
`
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`TOYOTA Ex. 1123, page 4
`Toyota v. Hagenbuch
`IPR2013-00638
`
`
`
` MICHAEL NRANIAN - VOLUME II
` (Witness sworn at 9:35 a.m. CST)
`
`Page 200
`
` MICHAEL NRANIAN,
`called as a witness herein by the Petitioner,
`having been first duly sworn, was examined and
`testified as follows:
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. MATTSON:
` Q. Good morning, Mr. Nranian.
` A. Hi.
` Q. I'm going to hand you some exhibits
`that have already been premarked to try to
`facilitate things. The first is the Steiner
`reference which is Exhibit 1110.
` A. You know what, can I go get my glasses
`real quick? I'm sorry. My reading glasses, I
`should have had them with me.
` MR. HILL: Oh.
` MR. MATTSON: Yeah, that's fine. Let's
`do that. Off the record.
` (Recess taken from 9:35 a.m.
` to 9:39 a.m.)
`BY MR. MATTSON:
` Q. Okay. I'm also going to hand you the
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`1
`2
`
`3 4
`
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`TOYOTA Ex. 1123, page 5
`Toyota v. Hagenbuch
`IPR2013-00638
`
`
`
`Page 201
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MICHAEL NRANIAN - VOLUME II
`Hagenbuch '917 patent, which is the patent
`that's being challenged in this proceeding.
`That's Exhibit 1101.
` A. Thank you.
` Q. I'm also going to hand you what's been
`premarked as Exhibit 2060.
` A. Thank you.
` Q. Is Exhibit 2060 the declaration that
`you submitted in this proceeding?
` A. Yes, sir.
` Q. Okay. I want to talk about the claim
`term "load on the engine."
` A. All right.
` Q. Did you form an opinion as to the
`construction of that term?
` A. Ah, hold on just a second.
` (Reviewing document.)
` Can you repeat that question?
` Q. Have you formed an opinion as to the
`meaning or proper construction of the term "load
`on the engine"?
` A. I guess I don't understand that
`question. Can you be more specific what you
`mean by that, what the meaning of the term "load
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`TOYOTA Ex. 1123, page 6
`Toyota v. Hagenbuch
`IPR2013-00638
`
`
`
`Page 202
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MICHAEL NRANIAN - VOLUME II
`on the engine" means?
` Q. Well, that's what I'm trying to ask
`you. I've got a meaning in my head, I've
`construed the term, it's in our papers. But I
`was wondering if in part of your analysis of the
`prior art and the '917 patent whether you had
`formed an opinion as to the meaning of the term
`"load on the engine"?
` A. (Reviewing document.)
` Yeah, I see it now. I'm sorry. I had
`to find the exact... "The Board has construed
`'a load on the engine' to mean at least a
`portion of the power output from or being
`consumed by the engine..."
` That's in paragraph 123.
` Q. Do you agree with that construction?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Would you agree that fuel consumption
`rate is an example of a load on the engine?
` A. It can be, but -- there's other factors
`that go into that, but it can be, yes. Just in
`and of itself, no, but it can give you a general
`idea of the load on the engine.
` Q. What are the other factors?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`TOYOTA Ex. 1123, page 7
`Toyota v. Hagenbuch
`IPR2013-00638
`
`
`
`Page 203
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MICHAEL NRANIAN - VOLUME II
` A. Well, you could have whether you're in
`freeway traffic, whether you're in city traffic,
`whether you're idling, what is the rpms that the
`motor's going at. You know, usually two or
`three thousand rpms is where you get the maximum
`amount of torque output and the maximum amount
`of work out of an engine.
` But in general, for example, like let's
`say if you're going down the highway, if you're
`towing a trailer you're going to consume more
`fuel than if you're just not towing a trailer.
`So you can use fuel consumption as an indication
`of load on the engine, but in and of itself it
`is not the only thing.
` Q. Would a sensor that outputs fuel
`consumption levels provide indication of load on
`the engine?
` A. It can, a general indication, but -- it
`depends on other factors too, but it can.
` Q. So a sensor that outputs fuel
`consumption levels would only provide a general
`indication of a load on an engine; is that
`right?
` A. Right. Yeah. It depends on what
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`TOYOTA Ex. 1123, page 8
`Toyota v. Hagenbuch
`IPR2013-00638
`
`
`
`Page 204
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MICHAEL NRANIAN - VOLUME II
`you're -- you know, what you're using the
`vehicle for.
` Like I said, if you're going down a
`highway and you're towing a trailer, you know,
`conceivably you could even be in a higher gear
`because now you're -- or a lower gear because
`now you're towing a trailer and so you're going
`to use up more fuel than if you're going down
`the highway without towing a trailer.
` I mean, I'm sure on trips when you've
`had trailers behind your vehicle you've seen
`that, you know what, I might be getting 11,
`12 miles to the gallon, where normally without
`going with a trailer I'm getting 19 miles to a
`gallon.
` Q. Yeah. Actually, I drive downhill to
`work and I get 20 miles a gallon and I drive
`home uphill coming home and I get 10.
` A. No kidding?
` Q. Can you please turn to the '917 patent
`that's Exhibit 1101.
` A. Yeah.
` Q. On the very last page do you see claim
`35?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`TOYOTA Ex. 1123, page 9
`Toyota v. Hagenbuch
`IPR2013-00638
`
`
`
`Page 205
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MICHAEL NRANIAN - VOLUME II
` A. Yes.
` Q. And it talks about "a load carried by
`the vehicle". Do you see that?
` A. (Reviewing document.)
` Yes.
` Q. Is that an example of a load on the
`engine?
` A. (Reviewing document.)
` It can be.
` Q. In your mind is there a difference
`between a load on the engine and the engine's
`load? Is that the same thing?
` A. Well, it depends on what context you're
`talking about. I mean, there's load on the
`vehicle like let's say for a dump truck and then
`there's load on the engine and, you know, engine
`load can also vary with let's say whether you
`have AC on, you know, whether you're charging
`the alternator or not, things like that. So,
`you know, it depends on how finely you want to
`granularize what you're meaning by "load."
` But in general, you know, throttle
`position, fuel consumption can be a general
`indication of engine load and load on the
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`TOYOTA Ex. 1123, page 10
`Toyota v. Hagenbuch
`IPR2013-00638
`
`
`
`Page 206
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MICHAEL NRANIAN - VOLUME II
`vehicle, but like I said, you know, it depends
`on what you're using it for and the context that
`you're taking it for.
` Q. Let's look at figure 2A of the '917
`patent.
` A. (Witness so doing.)
` Q. And there do you see "sensor 67C"?
`It's in the upper left corner of the page.
` A. Yes. "Engine fuel consumption."
` Q. Does that indicate that there is an
`engine fuel consumption sensor?
` A. Yeah.
` Q. What does that sensor output?
` Or let me state that differently. What
`does the engine fuel consumption sensor read?
` A. (Reviewing document.)
` Well, in general, figure 2A is a
`"schematic block diagram of the hardware
`architecture of the diagnostic system of the
`invention." Um... (reviewing document.)
` It's a production-related sensor. If
`you look at column 6, on line 33 "Engine fuel
`consumption," it says down on column 6, line 59
`"Each of the foregoing vital sign and production
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`TOYOTA Ex. 1123, page 11
`Toyota v. Hagenbuch
`IPR2013-00638
`
`
`
`Page 207
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MICHAEL NRANIAN - VOLUME II
`related sensors 73 and 67 is a well-known sensor
`that is commercially available. See Sensors
`Magazine, 1993 Buyer's Guide, November 2nd,
`1992, Volume 9, No. 12. Helmers Publishing,
`Peterborough, New Hampshire, 03458-0874
`(ISSN 0746-9462)."
` So their -- it's an engine fuel
`consumption sensor that is generally
`commercially available.
` Q. What does that type of sensor output?
` A. Engine fuel consumption.
` Q. Does that indicate the fuel level of
`the vehicle?
` A. It can.
` Q. Is that how one of ordinary skill in
`the art would have understood it when the -- at
`the priority date for the '917 patent,
`February 15, 1994?
` A. He may, but you'd have to look and see
`what's in Sensors Magazine, Buyer's Guide and
`Helmers Publishing, Incorporated.
` Q. Have you looked at that?
` A. No, I have not.
` Q. For expediency, when I talk about the
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`TOYOTA Ex. 1123, page 12
`Toyota v. Hagenbuch
`IPR2013-00638
`
`
`
`Page 208
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MICHAEL NRANIAN - VOLUME II
`filing date of the '917 patent, is it okay if we
`can understand that to mean the earliest
`priority date to which the '917 patent is
`entitled?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. Which is February 15, 1994,
`right?
` A. Yeah, I was looking for it. Hold on.
`Ah... (reviewing document.)
` Okay, yeah.
` Q. So the output of the engine fuel
`consumption sensor 67C, is that output an
`example of a load on an engine?
` A. Well, in the context of how I explained
`earlier, you know, it depends on what you're
`using the vehicle for. But generally it can be.
` Q. What if you're using the vehicle to
`haul a trailer?
` A. Yes. That would be an example, yes.
` Q. That would be an example of where the
`output of the engine fuel consumption sensor
`indicates a load on the engine?
` A. Yes. On a highway, for example, like I
`said, at a fixed speed as compared to not
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`TOYOTA Ex. 1123, page 13
`Toyota v. Hagenbuch
`IPR2013-00638
`
`
`
`Page 209
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MICHAEL NRANIAN - VOLUME II
`hauling a trailer, you're going to have more
`load on the engine and you're going to consume
`more fuel.
` Q. Let's turn to Steiner for a moment.
`That's Exhibit 1110.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Would you agree that Steiner is
`describing a trip recorder?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Does the trip recorder record realtime
`data?
` A. Some data at set intervals of...
`(reviewing document.)
` Q. And the interval can be either or 15 or
`60 seconds, for example, right?
` A. Yeah, some data. Some data.
`Specifically distance.
` Q. Well, isn't distance just the primary
`function? Couldn't it also record other types
`of information?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Such as speed, is that an example?
` A. Yeah, but it doesn't seem to record it.
`In fact, I think I address that. (Reviewing
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`TOYOTA Ex. 1123, page 14
`Toyota v. Hagenbuch
`IPR2013-00638
`
`
`
`Page 210
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MICHAEL NRANIAN - VOLUME II
`document.)
` Q. Just so it's clear, what I'm talking
`about in Steiner, I think you might know, but
`it's at column 7, lines --
` A. 29 to 30, yeah.
` Q. Exactly.
` A. Yeah.
` Q. Lines 29 to 30, it says "Distance is
`chosen as the primary function of this
`embodiment."
` A. Right.
` Q. So --
` A. The thing is is that it's distance when
`you said a sampling at 15 -- every 15 to 60, but
`the other parameters -- or the other data may
`not be recorded at that set time interval. It
`uses summary blocks.
` Q. So you don't believe fuel is recorded
`every 15 or 60 seconds, for example?
` A. Yes, I do not. I do not believe that.
` Q. Would one of ordinary skill in the art
`understand that fuel could also be a primary
`function?
` A. I don't believe so.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`TOYOTA Ex. 1123, page 15
`Toyota v. Hagenbuch
`IPR2013-00638
`
`
`
`Page 211
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MICHAEL NRANIAN - VOLUME II
` Q. Why is that?
` A. Because it's just a trip recorder. And
`Steiner even says in terms of fuel -- in fact,
`let me get to that point. Just a second.
`(Reviewing document.)
` It -- "Steiner does not teach
`collecting data for distance traveled, engine
`rpm, or fuel consumption in its high resolution
`recording scheme," first of all, which I know is
`a collateral answer to your question. But the
`other thing is... (reviewing document.)
` I actually touch on it in paragraph 95.
`"More particular, in Steiner's general data
`compression scheme, sensor input 630 for
`distance, rpm, and fuel uphold by microprocessor
`504 to detect any data from the sensors. The
`data received from the sensors in this manner
`are in the form of electronic pulses. The count
`the pulses receive from each sensor is retained
`in register location in area data memory 506."
`And I say "Because this feature of the Steiner
`device is directed towards the storage of pulse
`counts, the person of ordinary skill in the art
`would understand that each pulse most likely
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`TOYOTA Ex. 1123, page 16
`Toyota v. Hagenbuch
`IPR2013-00638
`
`
`
`Page 212
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MICHAEL NRANIAN - VOLUME II
`represents some fixed incremental value of the
`parameter being sensed. For example, a pulse
`from the distance sensor could indicate one
`wheel rotation. Any pulse from the fuel sensor
`could indicate some given drop of fuel level in
`the fuel tank. In this scheme, Steiner
`identifies distance as the primary function that
`will dictate in the event that the distance
`sensor provides no pulses over a sustained
`period of time when summary blocks must be
`created. Accordingly, at successive fixed time
`intervals, the count the pulses receive from the
`distance sensor during each fixed time interval
`is stored in memory buffer with data memory 506
`at contiguous locations and the registers used
`to accumulate the count is set to zero."
` So as I say in paragraph 96, "The
`registers for accumulating pulses from the fuel
`and rpm sensors operate in a manner different
`from the register for accumulating pulses from
`the distance sensor. Whenever there is zero
`data received from the distance sensor for a
`specified time period, a summary block is stored
`in the memory buffer instead of recording zero
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`TOYOTA Ex. 1123, page 17
`Toyota v. Hagenbuch
`IPR2013-00638
`
`
`
`Page 213
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MICHAEL NRANIAN - VOLUME II
`distance for the duration of time for which zero
`data is received from the distance sensor. When
`pulses are again received from the distance
`sensor, the process of storing distance resumes
`at the memory block following the summary block
`entry. This summary block contains the
`following data: A count of the number of fixed
`time intervals during which the distance data
`was zero, values representative of the total
`number of engine revolutions since the previous
`summary block entry, maximum rpms since the
`previous summary block entry, total fuel
`consumed since the previous summary block entry,
`and a data of time entry, the time at which
`recording of distance resumed."
` So it's really in the summary blocks
`where you're going to get total fuel consumed.
` Q. What does Steiner's distance sensor 640
`output?
` A. (Reviewing document.)
` If you look at Steiner, column 7,
`line 29, "At successive fixed time intervals,
`the count of pulses received from the distance
`sensor 640 during each fixed time interval is
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`TOYOTA Ex. 1123, page 18
`Toyota v. Hagenbuch
`IPR2013-00638
`
`
`
`Page 214
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MICHAEL NRANIAN - VOLUME II
`stored in memory buffer within data memory 506
`at contiguous locations and the register used to
`accumulate the count is reset to zero."
` Q. What do the count of pulses represent
`in that section that you just read?
` A. (Reviewing document.)
` It says "The data received from the
`sensors in this manner in the form of electronic
`pulses..."
` Q. Right. But you just read the section
`that starts at column 7, line 30 that says "At
`successive fixed time intervals, the count of
`pulses received from the distance sensor 640"
`and so on.
` What does the term "count of pulses"
`mean in that sentence that you read?
` A. (Reviewing document.)
` Q. In other words, the count of pulses
`represents something, right?
` A. (Reviewing document.)
` Could you restate your question? The
`count of pulses in terms of what? The distance
`sensor? I thought it was in context of the
`distance sensor.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`TOYOTA Ex. 1123, page 19
`Toyota v. Hagenbuch
`IPR2013-00638
`
`
`
`Page 215
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MICHAEL NRANIAN - VOLUME II
` Q. Yes, my question's in the context of
`the distance sensor. The sentence reads: "At
`successive fixed time intervals, the count of
`pulses received from the distance sensor 640
`during each fixed time interval is stored in
`memory buffer within data memory 506 at
`contiguous locations and the register used to
`accumulate the count is reset to zero." That's
`column 7, lines 29 to 35 of Steiner.
` A. Yeah. And Steiner --
` Q. My question is: What do the count of
`pulses in that sentence represent? Do they
`represent the distance traveled between
`successive time intervals?
` A. What it says in column 4 of Steiner on
`line 15: "Figure 3 is a memory map of the
`compression scheme referred to in the Summary of
`the Invention. This compression scheme allows
`the recording of realtime data while
`significantly reducing the amount of memory
`required for data storage and as a result is
`more readily adaptable for use with solid state
`memories. A single parameter is chosen and at
`fixed time intervals data representative of the
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`TOYOTA Ex. 1123, page 20
`Toyota v. Hagenbuch
`IPR2013-00638
`
`
`
`Page 216
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MICHAEL NRANIAN - VOLUME II
`total activity during that time interval are
`recorded in contiguous memory locations. The
`compression is achieved primarily by the fact
`that each record is a summary of" -- I'm losing
`my place here -- "the activity of the function
`during the time interval as opposed to being an
`instantaneous sample. In the case of vehicle
`speed, for example, one could record average
`speed during the time interval, or in the case
`of distance traveled" -- which I believe is the
`answer to your question -- "one could record the
`total distance traveled in each time interval."
` Q. So if fuel is selected as the primary
`function, then wouldn't the pulses represent the
`amount of fuel consumed during each time
`interval?
` A. No, not necessarily. It later says,
`for example... where's that?
` (Reviewing document.) Where does it
`say it?
` For example, in column 6, line 38 I
`think is where it starts: "There are provided
`address and data lines 619 and input-output
`line 618 to interconnect the various components
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`TOYOTA Ex. 1123, page 21
`Toyota v. Hagenbuch
`IPR2013-00638
`
`
`
`Page 217
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MICHAEL NRANIAN - VOLUME II
`of the VMU. Also shown are the sensor input
`630, discreet device input 631, user data entry
`switch input 633, and event switch input 632.
`The discreet device inputs may be used to sense
`the occurrences of brake applications,
`headlights on/off and the like, while the data
`entry switch inputs are provided for entering
`driver operational codes such as border
`crossing, amount of low beam carried and the
`like. Event switch inputs are used to trigger
`the high resolution scheme mentioned above
`automatically or manually when an accident
`occurs."
` So you know, just like what I said in
`the declaration in terms of the answer to that
`previous question -- (reviewing document) --
`"Because this feature of the Steiner device is
`directed toward the storage of pulse counts, the
`person of ordinary skill in the art would
`understand that each pulse most likely
`represents some fixed incremental value of the
`parameter being sensed, for example, some given
`drop of fuel level in the fuel tank."
` Q. But there's no description of that in
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`TOYOTA Ex. 1123, page 22
`Toyota v. Hagenbuch
`IPR2013-00638
`
`
`
`Page 218
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MICHAEL NRANIAN - VOLUME II
`Steiner, is there?
` A. That's the problem. Steiner doesn't
`tell you, does it? And the most you can get out
`of it is what I said here.
` Q. When you were reading earlier, you were
`reading about discreet device inputs 631, right?
`That was one of the things you were talking
`about. But the --
` A. Hold on. Hold on. 631. Let's see
`which one 631 is. (Reviewing document.)
` Q. You said "The discreet device input 631
`may be used to sense the occurrences of brake
`applications." You were reading from the
`patent, but I believe you left out --
` A. Right.
` Q. -- the reference number 631, right?
` A. Right.
` Q. Okay. Fuel 642 is an example of a
`sensor input 630, correct?
` A. It's in a little box and then it's got
`other parameters, in, out.
` Q. Right. Fuel is not an example of a
`discreet device input 631, correct?
` A. I don't read that to mean that.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`TOYOTA Ex. 1123, page 23
`Toyota v. Hagenbuch
`IPR2013-00638
`
`
`
`Page 219
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MICHAEL NRANIAN - VOLUME II
` Q. I'm not clear. You agree that fuel is
`not an example of a discreet device input 631?
` A. No, I don't agree with that.
` Q. Really. Does the patent anywhere say
`that fuel is a discreet device input 631?
` A. (Reviewing document.)
` One of ordinary skill in the art would
`understand that typically when you're looking at
`fuel consumption, you're looking at, for
`example, a fuel gauge. And a fuel gauge which
`is giving you what the level is in the fuel
`tank, and you know, when the fuel gauge drops,
`it's because the level of fuel dropped. It's
`not giving it -- it's not giving it to you in
`discreet time intervals.
` Q. Let's turn to figure 6 of Steiner.
`There within the box 630 is sort of the sensors
`inputs. Inside of the --
` A. Hold on. I'm sorry.
` Q. We're at figure 6 of Steiner.
` A. Okay.
` Q. You'll agree with me, won't you, that
`distance, rpm, and fuel are all depicted inside
`the box 630, right?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`TOYOTA Ex. 1123, page 24
`Toyota v. Hagenbuch
`IPR2013-00638
`
`
`
`Page 220
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MICHAEL NRANIAN - VOLUME II
` A. Yes, but there's additional things
`going in with fuel.
` Q. You'll agree with me that the box 631
`is outside of the box 630, correct?
` A. (Reviewing document.)
` In that diagram?
` Q. Yes.
` A. Where it says "D-I-S-C"?
` Q. Right.
` A. Yes.
` Q. Let's turn to Aoyanagi. That's
`Exhibit 1103 that I'm going to hand to you right
`now.
` Now, Aoyanagi on page 71 talks about a
`number of different parameters that can be
`sensed and monitored, right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And in column 1 Aoyanagi states that
`"The data described below are not at all times
`necessary, but just illustrative."
` A. Yes.
` Q. Would it have been obvious to one of
`ordinary skill in the art to add an engine fuel
`consumption sensor to Aoyanagi's system?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`TOYOTA Ex. 1123, page 25
`Toyota v. Hagenbuch
`IPR2013-00638
`
`
`
`Page 221
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MICHAEL NRANIAN - VOLUME II
` MR. HILL: Objection, vague.
` THE WITNESS: (Reviewing document.)
` No.
`BY MR. MATTSON:
` Q. Earlier you said that the engine fuel
`consumption sensor 67C in the '917 patent is
`described in that patent as a well-known sensor,
`right? Do you remember saying that?
` A. It's in the publications that they
`refer to, yes, in the context of those
`publications.
` Q. And the '917 patent refers to the
`engine fuel consumption sensor as an example of
`a well-known sensor, right?
` A. Specifically the '917 patent says "Each
`of the following vital sign and production
`related sensors 73 and 67 is a well-known sensor
`that is commercially available. See Sensors
`Magazine, Helmers Publishing." So in the
`context of that, he's referring to those
`publications. They're in those publications.
` Q. In the context of the '917 patent, the
`engine fuel consumption sensor 67C is an example
`of a well-known sensor, right?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`TOYOTA Ex. 1123, page 26
`Toyota v. Hagenbuch
`IPR2013-00638
`
`
`
`Page 222
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MICHAEL NRANIAN - VOLUME II
` A. I'm answering the question in the
`context of how he describes it. It's a
`well-known sensor within those publications. In
`other words, he's saying look at those
`publications and it'll give you an indication of
`what a fuel consumption sensor is.
` Q. Well, let's just suppose hypothetically
`that we added "engine fuel consumption sensor"
`to Aoyanagi and that's going to be one of the
`parameters we monitor in Aoyanagi.
` A. Okay.
` Q. You follow me?
` A. (No response.)
` Q. Would one of ordinary skill in the art
`have had a reasonable expectation of success
`that that modification to Aoyanagi would work or
`would one of ordinary skill in the art have had
`a reasonable expectation that that modification
`would be successful?
` A. Well, the thing is when you read
`Aoyanagi, for example, when you read the Field
`of the Invention, it says right there that
`"Records running distan- -- running data at the
`time when the vehicle has received shocks due to
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`TOYOTA Ex. 1123, page 27
`Toyota v. Hagenbuch
`IPR2013-00638
`
`
`
`Page 223
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MICHAEL NRANIAN - VOLUME II
`an accident or the like, while protecting those
`data from corruption."
` I mean what would fuel consumption have
`to do with that? That's what you've got to ask
`yourself. And really, you know, I wouldn't see
`why you would add that.
` Q. Right. I think I understand your
`opinion with respect to that. But let's suppose
`that someone told one of ordinary skill in the
`art before the filing date of the '917 patent to
`add an engine fuel consumption sensor to
`Aoyanagi, would that person of ordinary skill in
`the art have had a reasonable expectation of
`success in doing so?
` A. Adding it for what?
` Q. Just because he was told to.
` A. So just willy-nilly he was just told,
`Oh, by the way...
` Q. Right.
` A. Even though this has nothing to do with
`the investigation and crash data recording --
` Q. Right.
` A. -- I want you to look at a fuel gauge?
` Q. Right.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`TOYOTA Ex. 1123, page 28
`Toyota v. Hagenbuch
`IPR2013-00638
`
`
`
`Page 224
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MICHAEL NRANIAN - VOLUME II
` A. Just for that reason and that reason
`only?
` Q. Right.
` A. Even though it has nothing to do with
`what Aoyanagi does?
` Q. Right.
` A. So in that context, if he was told that
`he specifically had to add it? Okay.
` Q. There wouldn't be any technical
`difficulties in doing it? That's probably a
`better way to phrase that question. Isn't that
`right?
` A. It depends on what you're using it for.
`When you say "technical difficulties," what are
`you using it for?
` Q. Suppose --
` A. Is it just a fuel gauge that's in a car
`that registers what your gas gauge is at, empty
`or full? All cars have that. Is that what
`you're using it for? Are you now sampling that
`at a discreet rate at fixed time intervals?
` Q. Let's say --
` A. Which Steiner doesn't say to do and is
`not ever mentioned in Aoyanagi.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`TOYOTA Ex. 1123, page 29
`Toyota v. Hagenbuch
`IPR2013-00638
`
`
`
`Page 225
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MICHAEL NRANIAN - VOLUME II
` Q. Let's stick with Aoyanagi and not
`Steiner.
` A. Okay. Are you doing it for that? Now
`it's a different thing. Now you got to say:
`Okay, how am I doing this? How am I storing
`this? What am I doing with this thing? What's
`my sampling rate? Am I compressing that data or
`what my using that data for? You can't just
`make a sweeping statement like that.
` You could -- I mean cars all have fuel
`gauges, right, empty or full? So your question
`is, you know, could you have a fuel gauge in
`Aoyanagi? Yeah. But it depends. Aoyanagi is
`for a crash data recorder, right? Or whatever
`it's for. It's for --
` Q. Right. It's your opinion that it
`wouldn't be obvious to do that to Aoyanagi.
` A. Right.
` Q. I understand that. But if one of
`ordinary skill in the art were instructed to add
`an engine fuel consumption sensor 67C, for
`example, right out of the '917 patent, if one of
`ordinary skill in the art were instructed to add
`that to Aoyanagi's system and sense the output,
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`TOYOTA Ex. 1123, page 30
`Toyota v. Hagenbuch
`IPR2013-00638
`
`
`
`Page 226
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MICHAEL NRANIAN - VOLUME II
`would there be any technical difficulties in
`doing so?
` A. You have to define that better.
` Q. You're not aware of any, right?
` A. You'd have to define that better.
` Q. T
Accessing this document will incur an additional charge of $.
After purchase, you can access this document again without charge.
Accept $ Charge
Still Working On It
This document is taking longer than usual to download. This can happen if we need to contact the court directly to obtain the document and their servers are running slowly.
Give it another minute or two to complete, and then try the refresh button.
A few More Minutes ... Still Working
It can take up to 5 minutes for us to download a document if the court servers are running slowly.
Thank you for your continued patience.
This document could not be displayed.
We could not find this document within its docket. Please go back to the docket page and check the link. If that does not work, go back to the docket and refresh it to pull the newest information.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
You need a Paid Account to view this document. Click here to change your account type.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
Set your membership
status to view this document.
With a Docket Alarm membership, you'll
get a whole lot more, including:
- Up-to-date information for this case.
- Email alerts whenever there is an update.
- Full text search for other cases.
- Get email alerts whenever a new case matches your search.
One Moment Please
The filing “” is large (MB) and is being downloaded.
Please refresh this page in a few minutes to see if the filing has been downloaded. The filing will also be emailed to you when the download completes.
Your document is on its way!
If you do not receive the document in five minutes, contact support at support@docketalarm.com.
Sealed Document
We are unable to display this document, it may be under a court ordered seal.
If you have proper credentials to access the file, you may proceed directly to the court's system using your government issued username and password.
Access Government Site
