Page 1
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` Inter Partes Review Nos. IPR 2013-00593(SGW)
` and IPR 2013-00594(SGW)
` Patent Nos. 8,045,952 and 8,050,652
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
`YAMAHA CORPORATION OF AMERICA,
` Petitioner
` vs.
`BLACK HILLS MEDIA, LLC,
` Patent Owner
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF IVAN ZATKOVICH
` Tuesday, July 29, 2014 9:27 a.m.
` Regus
` 8 Faneuil Hall Marketplace, Boston, MA
`
`Reported by:
`Janet Sambataro, RMR, CRR, CLR
`JOB NO. 82332
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Yamaha Corporation of America Exhibit 1015 Page 1
`
`
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` Inter Partes Review Nos. IPR 2013-00593(SGW)
` and IPR 2013-00594(SGW)
` Patent Nos. 8,045,952 and 8,050,652
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
`YAMAHA CORPORATION OF AMERICA,
` Petitioner
` vs.
`BLACK HILLS MEDIA, LLC,
` Patent Owner
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF IVAN ZATKOVICH
` Tuesday, July 29, 2014 9:27 a.m.
` Regus
` 8 Faneuil Hall Marketplace, Boston, MA
`
`Reported by:
`Janet Sambataro, RMR, CRR, CLR
`JOB NO. 82332
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Yamaha Corporation of America Exhibit 1015 Page 1
`
`
`
`Page 2
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
`
` July 29, 2014
` 9:27 a.m.
`
` Videotaped deposition of IVAN ZATKOVICH,
`held at the offices of Regus, 8 Faneuil Hall
`Marketplace, Boston, Massachusetts, pursuant to
`Agreement before Janet Sambataro, a Registered
`Merit Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter,
`Certified LiveNote Reporter, and a Notary Public
`within and for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`1
`
`2 3 4
`
`5
`
`6 7 8 9
`
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`Yamaha Corporation of America Exhibit 1015 Page 2
`
`
`
`Page 3
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
`APPEARANCES:
`
`MORRISON & FOERSTER
`By Vincent Belusko, Esquire
` David Fehrman, Esquire
`707 Wilshire Boulevard
`Los Angeles, California 90017
`Counsel for the Petitioner
`
`PEPPER HAMILTON
`By Andrew Schultz, Esquire
` Thomas Engellenner, Esquire
`125 High Street
`Boston, Massachusetts 02110
`Counsel for the Patent Owner
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
`Leann McKeon, Videographer
`
`1
`2
`
`3 4
`
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Yamaha Corporation of America Exhibit 1015 Page 3
`
`
`
`Page 4
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
` P R O C E E D I N G S
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the start of
`tape labeled number one of the videotaped
`deposition of Ivan Zatkovich in the matter of
`Yamaha Corporation of America versus Black Hills
`Media, LLC in the U.S. Patent and Trademark
`Office, before the Patent Trial and Appeal Board,
`Patent No. 8,045,952, Inter Partes Review Number
`IPR 2013-00593(SGW) and Patent No. 8,050,652,
`Inter Partes Review Number IPR 2013-00594(SGW).
` This deposition is being held at Eight
`Faneuil Hall Marketplace, Boston, Massachusetts,
`on July 29, 2014, at approximately 9:27 a.m.
` My name is Leeann McKeon. I am the legal
`video specialist from TSG Reporting, Inc.,
`headquartered at 747 Third Avenue, New York, New
`York. The court reporter is Janet Sambataro in
`association with TSG Reporting.
` Will counsel please introduce yourselves.
` MR. BELUSKO: Vincent Belusko, and with
`me is David Fehrman, of Morrison & Foerster,
`representing Yamaha.
` MR. SCHULTZ: Andrew Schultz, and with
`me Tom Engellener, Pepper Hamilton, representing
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Yamaha Corporation of America Exhibit 1015 Page 4
`
`
`
`Page 5
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
`Black Hills Media.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court
`reporter please swear in the witness.
` IVAN ZATKOVICH,
`having been duly sworn, after presenting
`identification in the form of a driver's license,
`deposes and says as follows:
` DIRECT EXAMINATION
`BY MR. BELUSKO:
` Q. Good morning, Mr. Zatkovich.
` A. Good morning.
` Q. Let me just ask you, have you ever had
`your deposition taken before?
` A. I have.
` Q. Okay. On how many occasions, roughly?
` A. Eighteen, 19 times.
` Q. Okay. So you're familiar with the
`process. I'd invite you, if there's any time
`where you would like to take a break today,
`please feel free to ask.
` I would ask that you complete any pending
`question with an answer before we take your
`break. But, otherwise, don't feel the need to be
`uncomfortable, if you want to stretch your legs,
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Yamaha Corporation of America Exhibit 1015 Page 5
`
`
`
`Page 6
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
`wash up, whatever.
` A. I understand.
` Q. Is there any reason that you believe
`you can't give a good deposition today?
` A. No.
` MR. BELUSKO: I'm going to place before
`you a couple of exhibits. Exhibit 1 is a Notice
`of Deposition in connection with the '652 patent.
` (Notice of Deposition of Ivan
` Zatkovich marked Exhibit 1.)
` MR. BELUSKO: And Exhibit 2 is a Notice
`of Deposition in connection with the '952 patent.
` (Notice of Deposition of Ivan
` Zatkovich marked Exhibit 2.)
` Q. And I ask you whether you're familiar
`with those documents.
` A. Yes. I've seen these documents.
` Q. Now, in connection with your prior
`depositions, were they all in the context of
`expert depositions?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Have you ever appeared as an expert at
`a trial and testified?
` A. Yes, I have.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Yamaha Corporation of America Exhibit 1015 Page 6
`
`
`
`Page 7
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
` Q. And on how many occasions?
` A. Five times.
` Q. And what were the subject matters of
`those five trials?
` A. In some cases, patent litigation. In
`other cases, cell phone forensics.
` Q. Okay. And in connection with the
`patent litigation matters, what were the
`technologies involved?
` A. E-commerce, electronic transactions,
`and telecommunications.
` MR. BELUSKO: Okay. And let me go
`ahead and give you what's Exhibit 3. I don't
`mean this to be a memory test for you. This is
`in connection with the '952 patent. This is your
`declaration submitted in this matter.
` (Declaration of Ivan Zatkovich
` relating to U.S. Patent No. 8,045,952 marked
` Exhibit 3.)
` Q. I ask you if you're familiar with what
`I've handed you as Exhibit 3.
` A. Yes. This is the declaration that I
`wrote.
` Q. Okay. And I know it has a CV attached
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Yamaha Corporation of America Exhibit 1015 Page 7
`
`
`
`Page 8
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
`to the back of it, so if there's anything you
`want to refer to with respect to these background
`questions, please feel free.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Okay. When did you begin your work as
`an expert witness?
` A. I think the first case that I worked on
`was in 1999.
` Q. Since that time, to the present, have
`any of the cases you've been involved with
`concerned playlists?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Which cases?
` A. Well, the Black Hills ITC case
`involving the same patents we're discussing
`today. I worked on a case called Zamora Radio
`that involved playlists. And the Bear Creek
`Technologies case involved playlists in a
`subsidiary role.
` Q. Okay. What do you mean "involved
`playlists in a subsidiary role"?
` A. It involved the transmission, storage,
`and usage of media over the internet and
`telecommunication networks, and part of the
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Yamaha Corporation of America Exhibit 1015 Page 8
`
`
`
`Page 9
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
`analyses that I did was in the use of or access
`to video and audio information, which also
`included the use of playlists.
` Q. Okay. When you refer to video
`information, are you referring to, like, movies
`or something?
` A. Correct.
` Q. And the Zamora Radio matter, you said
`that involved playlists. In what -- in what way?
` A. Zamora Radio involved technology where
`you had the ability to play a group of songs.
`And the technology was related to how you could
`access a sequence of songs or a playlist and how
`you could manipulate the order and the sequence
`of the media.
` Q. Can you explain what you mean by
`"manipulate the order"?
` A. Sure. Zamora had more to do with the
`ability to access playlists without the need for
`a full media license. In other words, there's
`broadcast license and there's media license.
` The ability to do something similar to radio
`broadcasts, where you could listen once and move
`to the next song without backing up or
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Yamaha Corporation of America Exhibit 1015 Page 9
`
`
`
`Page 10
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
`re-listening to a previous song, that was the
`technology involved in that.
` Q. So was this ability to listen to things
`or, as you indicate, manipulate the order
`something that the user had the capability of
`doing?
` MR. SCHULTZ: Scope.
` A. There was a user interface involved.
`But there was also limitations placed on the
`software performing those functions.
` Q. What type of limitations?
` MR. SCHULTZ: Scope.
` A. The ability to allow the user to move
`forward, pause, but not move backwards.
` Q. So in connection with the playlist of
`Zamora, could a user skip songs?
` A. I don't recall.
` Q. When you say move forward and not
`backwards, what do you mean by "move forward"?
` A. Well, when you have a playlist,
`normally you have the ability to move to the next
`song, move back to the previous song, or perhaps
`shuffle, to random -- somewhat randomize the
`order of play.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Yamaha Corporation of America Exhibit 1015 Page 10
`
`
`
`Page 11
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
` In the Zamora case, you only had the ability
`to pause or move forward.
` Q. So if you move forward, did you skip
`something?
` A. It depends on how you define "skip."
` Q. But you used the term "skip," I think.
` A. I don't recall using the term "skip" in
`the Zamora case.
` Q. Oh, okay. Well, would you have the
`ability to move forward past the next song before
`it started to play?
` A. I don't recall.
` Q. Now, in Bear Creek Technologies, the
`media was both movies and -- and audio in some
`way. Is that right?
` A. Correct. Any -- any media, voice over
`internet, telecommunications, and data.
` Q. Okay. And all those things were in
`connection with a playlist? Is that right?
` A. No.
` Q. Okay. Were the movies in connection
`with a playlist?
` A. No.
` Q. What was in connection with a playlist
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Yamaha Corporation of America Exhibit 1015 Page 11
`
`
`
`Page 12
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
`in Bear Creek?
` A. The ability to access audio
`information.
` Q. Now, you stated that you had been
`retained in connection with an ITC matter
`involving Black Hills involving these same
`patents. Is that correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Okay. When were you retained in
`connection with that matter?
` A. Well over a year ago. I'd say perhaps
`a year and a half ago.
` Q. Okay. Who retained you at that time?
` A. A firm called Mintz, Levin.
` Q. What was your role in connection with
`that matter?
` A. I was retained as a testifying expert
`for three of the patents-in-suit.
` Q. Okay. Which three patents?
` A. The two Qureshey patents that we're
`discussing today and another patent called the
`Drutman patent regarding geolocation.
` Q. Okay. And specifically in connection
`with those patents, what subjects were you
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Yamaha Corporation of America Exhibit 1015 Page 12
`
`
`
`Page 13
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
`testifying on? Infringement? Validity?
` A. Ah. I was testifying on both
`infringement and validity.
` Q. Did you testify with respect to claim
`construction in any way?
` A. Testify, no. I did provide opinions in
`my report regarding claim construction, as I
`recall.
` Q. Did it include the term "playlist"?
` A. Yes, it did.
` Q. In connection with your report there
`and the definition of the term "playlist," is
`that definition the same one that you used in
`connection with your expert declaration,
`Exhibit 3 here?
` A. I believe it is. Yes.
` Q. Did you adopt that definition in
`connection with the ITC case from something that
`the Mintz, Levin people provided you?
` A. No. I was involved in the Mintz, Levin
`case very early on.
` Q. In connection with the instant matter,
`the IPRs involving the '952 and the '652 patents,
`when were you first retained?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Yamaha Corporation of America Exhibit 1015 Page 13
`
`
`
`Page 14
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
` A. I'd say about five or six months ago.
` Q. At the time you were retained, what did
`you understand the status in the PTO was?
` A. The status of?
` Q. The IPR petition.
` A. I don't -- I don't recall the specific
`status when I was first brought on board.
` Q. Do you recall whether the petition was
`granted at that time?
` A. I believe it was.
` Q. So if the petition was granted in March
`of 2014, would that help you understand when you
`were retained here?
` A. As I said, five or six months ago. So
`probably closer to five than six.
` Q. Okay. So you believe that the -- it
`was prior to the petition being granted, then?
` A. Again, I'm giving you an approximate
`date.
` Q. Okay. But as best you recall, sitting
`here, the petition had been granted before you
`were retained in this matter. Is that correct?
` A. Again, I don't recall specifically.
`But that's my recollection at this time.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Yamaha Corporation of America Exhibit 1015 Page 14
`
`
`
`Page 15
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
` Q. Well, in working with the issue of
`claim construction that's found in your
`declaration here, Exhibit 3, did you just rely
`upon your work in the ITC matter for the
`definition of "playlist"?
` A. I used my knowledge in the ITC matter
`to help form my opinions. I'm not sure I relied
`solely on that. No.
` Q. Well, was there anything else you
`relied upon?
` A. Yes. The documents in the matter in
`this case.
` Q. Well, were those documents that you had
`relied upon previously in connection with the
`opinion that you had provided as to what a
`playlist meant in the ITC matter?
` A. I'm sorry. Could you ask that question
`again?
` Q. Sure. I'm trying to understand whether
`there's anything new you relied upon in
`connection with this IPR proceeding that you did
`not rely upon in connection with the ITC
`proceeding in formulating your opinion as to
`"playlist"?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Yamaha Corporation of America Exhibit 1015 Page 15
`
`
`
`Page 16
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
` A. Well, I attempt to review all materials
`available to me before I form my opinions. In
`this particular matter, there were petitions
`available. There was the patent owner response.
` We can look at the other material that I
`reviewed, but those are examples of other
`material that I reviewed.
` Q. Okay. Now, when did you graduate with
`your EE degree?
` A. It was a computer science degree.
` Q. Oh, okay. And when was that?
` A. That was in 1980.
` Q. And do I understand correctly that that
`is the last degree you've received?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Now, you did some graduate work,
`though, subsequent to getting your computer
`science degree. Is that correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Over what period was that?
` A. That was 1980 to 1981.
` Q. And why -- why did you not complete
`your master's?
` A. I was presented with an offer from
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Yamaha Corporation of America Exhibit 1015 Page 16
`
`
`
`Page 17
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
`Digital Equipment Corporation to come and join
`them. It was a company that I've always wanted
`to work for. And basically it was an offer I
`couldn't refuse.
` Q. Now, in connection with Exhibit 3, you
`provide some discussion of who a person of
`ordinary skill in the art is. Correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Okay. If I can reference you, then,
`to -- I believe it's going to be in Paragraph 26.
` Do you see that?
` A. I do.
` Q. Okay. And you set out that it's your
`opinion that the relevant field with respect to
`the '952 patent is media file sharing. Correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. And then that the ordinary level of
`skill in the art is a bachelor's degree in
`computer science or electrical engineering or its
`equivalent and one to two years of experience
`with media file sharing. Is that right?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Okay. Now, do you disagree with
`Dr. Bove's opinion as to who a person of ordinary
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Yamaha Corporation of America Exhibit 1015 Page 17
`
`
`
`Page 18
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
`skill in the art is?
` MR. SCHULTZ: Objection. Basis.
` A. I don't think I would characterize it
`as disagreeing. I think it's just a little
`open-ended.
` Q. Would you consider Dr. Bove to be one
`of at least ordinary skill in the art?
` A. I don't think I performed that analysis
`to make that judgment.
` Q. Well, you sat through his deposition,
`didn't you?
` A. I did.
` Q. You've seen his CV?
` A. Briefly.
` Q. So do I understand that you have no
`opinion on whether Dr. Bove is at least one of
`ordinary skill in the art here of media file
`sharing?
` A. I have no reason to doubt that, but I
`haven't been asked to form an opinion on that.
`No.
` Q. Okay. Let me ask you about that. In
`terms of the opinions that you've formed with
`respect to the '952 patent, are all of those
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Yamaha Corporation of America Exhibit 1015 Page 18
`
`
`
`Page 19
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
`opinions in connection with this matter set forth
`in Exhibit 3?
` A. All the opinions -- I'm sorry. Could
`you ask that question again?
` MR. BELUSKO: Sure. Would you read it
`back, please.
` (The pending question was read by
` the reporter as requested.)
` A. In connection with this matter? Yes.
`I would say they're contained in my declaration.
` Q. Okay. So there's nothing missing that
`you're aware of, as you sit here today?
` A. Not that I'm aware of.
` Q. Is there anything in the report,
`Exhibit 3, that you believe is in error, as you
`sit here today?
` A. Other than some typos, perhaps, no, I
`don't -- I don't consider there to be any errors
`in the declaration.
` Q. Is there -- are there any corrections
`you wish to make to Exhibit 3, your declaration?
` A. Not at this time.
` Q. Now, in connection with the
`retention in this IPR matter, were you retained
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Yamaha Corporation of America Exhibit 1015 Page 19
`
`
`
`Page 20
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
`with respect to both the '952 and the '652
`patents at the same time?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And who first contacted you?
` A. Someone from the Pepper Hamilton firm.
`I don't recall specifically who contacted me
`first.
` Q. Okay. Well, whom at the Pepper
`Hamilton firm have you had contacts with
`concerning this matter?
` A. Counsel that's present here today.
` Q. Okay. Anybody else?
` A. Specifically regarding this matter, no.
` Q. At the time that you were retained in
`connection with the '952 and '652 IPRs, did you
`understand that it was your role to help uphold
`the validity of those patents?
` A. No. That was not my understanding.
` Q. Okay. What was your understanding of
`what your role was?
` A. My understanding was to examine the
`petition, examine the Bove report and provide my
`opinions accordingly.
` Q. Okay. In connection with the Black
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Yamaha Corporation of America Exhibit 1015 Page 20
`
`
`
`Page 21
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
`Hills ITC matter, had you previously testified
`before your work in this matter concerning the
`validity of the patents in that matter?
` A. I have.
` Q. Had you testified also with respect to
`infringement issues in that ITC matter with
`respect to the '952 and '652 patents?
` A. I had, yes.
` Q. Is it your understanding that the ITC
`has ruled that there was no infringement with
`respect to those patents?
` A. I'm not familiar with the ITC rulings.
`No.
` Q. Okay. Have you been informed about
`what the ITC has ruled at all?
` A. I have not.
` Q. In connection with your past work, have
`you ever provided declarations in any I- -- in
`any PTO proceedings?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. In which ones?
` A. I was -- served as an expert in a
`matter involving Progressive Insurance and
`Liberty Mutual. That was actually a CBM for
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Yamaha Corporation of America Exhibit 1015 Page 21
`
`
`
`Page 22
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
`two -- two different patents. Those are the only
`matters that I've completed at this time.
` Q. Okay. In connection with that, was
`your declaration in support of the patent claims
`or finding them not valid?
` A. They're in support of the respondent in
`that case.
` Q. The patentee, then?
` A. Correct. I'm sorry. I just recalled
`there's one other matter I'm working on, recent
`IPR.
` Q. Okay.
` A. SearchMetrics.
` Q. And have you already submitted your
`expert declaration in that matter?
` A. No. We're in the process of doing that
`now.
` Q. And are you working on behalf of the
`patentee?
` A. No.
` Q. Are you working on behalf of the
`petitioner in that matter?
` A. Correct.
` Q. In connection with Exhibit 3, I'll note
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Yamaha Corporation of America Exhibit 1015 Page 22
`
`
`
`Page 23
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
`for you that I believe it was submitted in June
`of this year.
` Over what period of time do you recall
`actually working on drafting that declaration?
` A. Over a period of approximately four
`months.
` Q. Were you provided a draft by counsel
`initially?
` A. No.
` Q. Did you do the original drafting of
`this Exhibit 3?
` A. Yes.
` Q. In connection with your preparation,
`other than counsel that you've mentioned, did you
`speak with anybody else in formulating your
`opinions here?
` A. Yes. I had an associate assist me.
` Q. And who was that?
` A. His name is Richard Irving.
` Q. Is he somebody that works with you?
` A. Correct. He's one of the consultants
`that I work with.
` Q. Did you speak with anybody else?
` A. No. Not that I recall.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Yamaha Corporation of America Exhibit 1015 Page 23
`
`
`
`Page 24
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
` Q. Okay. Did you ever have any
`communications with Gareth Loy in connection with
`your work here?
` A. I've met Gareth, but I don't recall
`having any conversation about the subject matter
`in this IPR.
` Q. Okay. And with respect to the six --
`well, let me -- let me get that, the '652
`opinion.
` MR. BELUSKO: Let's mark that just for
`consistency.
` (Declaration of Ivan Zatkovich
` relating to U.S. Patent No. 8,050,652 marked
` Exhibit 4.)
` Q. I've marked what is going to be
`Exhibit 4, which is a declaration of Ivan
`Zatkovich in connection with the '652 patent IPR
`and ask you if you're familiar with this
`document.
` A. Yes, I am.
` Q. And in connection with the preparation
`of your declaration in Exhibit 4, other than the
`two counsel you identified from the Pepper
`Hamilton firm, did you work with anybody else in
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Yamaha Corporation of America Exhibit 1015 Page 24
`
`
`
`Page 25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
`helping to formulate your opinions as expressed
`in this report?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And who?
` A. Richard Irving as well.
` Q. Okay. Anybody else?
` A. No.
` Q. In preparing that report, did you
`intend to make it consistent with the testimony
`that you have provided in the ITC proceeding?
` A. Intend to make it -- I'm not sure I
`understand the question.
` Q. Okay. Well, there are various opinions
`that have been expressed in what is found in
`Exhibit 3 and in Exhibit 4 of yours. And I'm
`asking, did you intend to make sure that the
`opinions expressed in Exhibit 3 and Exhibit 4
`would be consistent with testimony you had
`provided in the ITC hearing involving the same
`patents?
` A. I don't -- I don't recall having that
`as one of my objectives. No.
` Q. Well, did you check to make sure that
`what you said in Exhibit 3 and Exhibit 4 wouldn't
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Yamaha Corporation of America Exhibit 1015 Page 25
`
`
`
`Page 26
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
`contradict in any way anything that you had
`already testified about or provided a report
`about in the ITC matter?
` A. Did I specifically do a comparison? I
`don't recall. No.
` Q. Well, are you aware of whether
`Mr. Irving did such a comparison?
` A. No.
` Q. Are you aware of whether counsel did
`such a comparison? Yes or no.
` A. No.
` Q. In connection with your reports,
`Exhibit 3 and 4, did you pass those by any
`attorneys at Mintz, Levin?
` A. No.
` Q. Did you prepare for this deposition in
`any way?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And what did you do?
` A. Primarily reading my declarations and
`the material referenced in the declarations.
` Q. Okay. And by "the declarations," just
`for the record, you're referring to Exhibits 3
`and 4. Is that correct?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Yamaha Corporation of America Exhibit 1015 Page 26
`
`
`
`Page 27
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Did you meet with anybody in preparing?
` A. I met with counsel yesterday.
` Q. Okay. Who?
` A. Mr. Schultz and Mr. -- I'm sorry --
` MR. ENGELLENNER: Engellener.
` A. -- Engellener.
` Q. Anybody else?
` A. No.
` Q. Did you speak to Mr. Loy concerning his
`deposition yesterday?
` A. No.
` Q. Did you speak to counsel from Pepper
`Hamilton regarding the deposition of Mr. Loy
`yesterday?
` MR. SCHULTZ: Objection.
` A. Did I speak --
` MR. SCHULTZ: Yes or no.
` A. No. I don't recall.
` Q. Well, do you recall learning anything
`about the deposition of Mr. Loy?
` A. I remember a conversation taking place
`about the duration of the deposition, whether it
`was going to go the full duration or not.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Yamaha Corporation of America Exhibit 1015 Page 27
`
`
`
`Page 28
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
` Q. Anything else?
` A. I didn't engage in any conversation. I
`just happened to be in the room at the time.
` Q. Okay. Now, other than counsel from
`Pepper Hamilton, did you speak with counsel for
`Mintz, Levin in preparing for your deposition
`today?
` A. No.
` Q. And when did you begin your preparation
`for the depo?
` A. I'd say approximately two weeks ago.
` Q. And how much time have you spent
`cumulatively?
` A. In the preparation? I'd say maybe 25
`to 30 hours.
` Q. Let's refer to Exhibit 3. I believe
`it's the '952 declaration. And I want to point
`you to Page 25 on that exhibit.
` A. Okay.
` Q. And this is a section on "Opinions as
`to Claim Construction." Correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And is the only term in the '952
`patent that you have provided an opinion on as to
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Yamaha Corporation of America Exhibit 1015 Page 28
`
`
`
`Page 29
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
`its construction the term "playlist"?
` MR. SCHULTZ: The document speaks for
`itself.
` A. No.
` Q. What other term?
` A. I provided an opinion regarding
`"receiving a playlist assigned to the electronic
`device."
` Q. Okay.
` A. And I believe that's the terms that
`I've provided an opinion on.
` Q. Okay. Now, in connection with
`Exhibit 4, which is the '652 patent declaration,
`what terms did you provide an opinion as to their
`construction?
` A. The term "playlist" and "receiving a
`playlist assigned to the electronic device."
` Q. The same two terms, then?
` A. Well, actually, three terms.
` Q. Oh, okay.
` A. The phrase "receiving a playlist
`assigned to the electronic device," I broke that
`down into two parts, the first part being
`"assigned to the electronic device" and the
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Yamaha Corporation of America Exhibit 1015 Page 29
`
`
`
`Page 30
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
`second part being "receiving."
` Q. Is that somehow different than what you
`did with respect to the '952 patent?
` A. No. It would be the same.
` Q. Okay. Is it your understanding that
`the '952 and '652 patents are based on the same
`specification?
` A. That's my understanding. Yes.
` Q. Is it your belief that the claim
`construction for the terms found in those patents
`that you have opined on here should have the same
`construction for both the '952 and '652 patents?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Now, the PTO has provided a
`construction in connection with its granting of
`the petition with respect to the term "playlist."
`Correct?
` A. I'm sorry. Could you repeat that?
` MR. BELUSKO: Sure. Would you read
`that back.
` (The pending question was read by
` the reporter as requested.)
` A. Yes. I believe that's correct.
` Q. And your opinion, as set forth in both
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Yamaha Corporation of America Exhibit 1015 Page 30
`
`
`
`Page 31
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH
`Exhibits 3 and 4, is that that opinion -- let me
`restate it.
` And is it correct that it is your opinion,
`as set forth in Exhibits 3 and 4, that the PTO
`construction of the term "playlist" is wrong?
` A. I'm not sure I'd consider it wrong. I
`would -- may consider it incomplete.
` Q. Well, you consider it incorrect, don't
`you?
` A. I'm not sure I would consider it
`incorrect. I think there's some missing parts to
`it.
` Q. Well, let me reference you to Page 37
`of Exhibit 3, Paragraph 67. And I'll read, "I
`believe that the board's interpretation of
`'playlist' as a list of audio files or URLs... is
`incorrect for several reasons."
` So you do consider it incorrect. Right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Now, do you believe that it's -- well,
`let's start with what are those reasons that you
`believ
Accessing this document will incur an additional charge of $.
After purchase, you can access this document again without charge.
Accept $ Charge
Still Working On It
This document is taking longer than usual to download. This can happen if we need to contact the court directly to obtain the document and their servers are running slowly.
Give it another minute or two to complete, and then try the refresh button.
A few More Minutes ... Still Working
It can take up to 5 minutes for us to download a document if the court servers are running slowly.
Thank you for your continued patience.
This document could not be displayed.
We could not find this document within its docket. Please go back to the docket page and check the link. If that does not work, go back to the docket and refresh it to pull the newest information.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
You need a Paid Account to view this document. Click here to change your account type.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
Set your membership
status to view this document.
With a Docket Alarm membership, you'll
get a whole lot more, including:
- Up-to-date information for this case.
- Email alerts whenever there is an update.
- Full text search for other cases.
- Get email alerts whenever a new case matches your search.
One Moment Please
The filing “” is large (MB) and is being downloaded.
Please refresh this page in a few minutes to see if the filing has been downloaded. The filing will also be emailed to you when the download completes.
Your document is on its way!
If you do not receive the document in five minutes, contact support at support@docketalarm.com.
Sealed Document
We are unable to display this document, it may be under a court ordered seal.
If you have proper credentials to access the file, you may proceed directly to the court's system using your government issued username and password.
Access Government Site
