JOSHUA R. SMITH
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`Page 1
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`WINTEK CORPORATION,
`Petitioner,
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`vs. Case No. IPR2013-00567
` IPR2013-00568
` IPR2014-00541
`TPK TOUCH SOLUTIONS, INC.,
`Patent Owner.
`
`DISCOVERY DEPOSITION OF JOSHUA R. SMITH
`Taken on Thursday, September 4, 2014
`8:59 a.m.
`Job No. 83931
` ___
`BE IT REMEMBERED THAT, pursuant to the Washington Rules of
`Civil Procedure, the deposition of JOSHUA R. SMITH, was
`taken before Tia B. Reidt, #2798, a Certified Shorthand
`Reporter, and a Notary Public for the State of Washington,
`on September 4, 2014, commencing at the hour of 8:59 a.m.,
`the proceedings being reported at 601 Union Street,
`Seattle, Washington.
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`Wintek Exhibit 1026
`IPR201(cid:22)-00568
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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 1
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`WINTEK CORPORATION,
`Petitioner,
`
`vs. Case No. IPR2013-00567
` IPR2013-00568
` IPR2014-00541
`TPK TOUCH SOLUTIONS, INC.,
`Patent Owner.
`
`DISCOVERY DEPOSITION OF JOSHUA R. SMITH
`Taken on Thursday, September 4, 2014
`8:59 a.m.
`Job No. 83931
` ___
`BE IT REMEMBERED THAT, pursuant to the Washington Rules of
`Civil Procedure, the deposition of JOSHUA R. SMITH, was
`taken before Tia B. Reidt, #2798, a Certified Shorthand
`Reporter, and a Notary Public for the State of Washington,
`on September 4, 2014, commencing at the hour of 8:59 a.m.,
`the proceedings being reported at 601 Union Street,
`Seattle, Washington.
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`Wintek Exhibit 1026
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` JOSHUA R. SMITH
`APPEARANCES
`
`Appearing on behalf of the Petitioner
`Joseph Palys
`Uttam Dubal
`PAUL HASTINGS
`875 15th Street NW
`Washington, DC 20005
`
`Appearing on behalf of the Patent Owner
`Derek Tang
`QUINN EMANUEL URQUART & SULLIVAN
`50 California Street
`San Francisco, CA 94111
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` JOSHUA R. SMITH
`APPEARANCES CONTINUED
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`ALSO PRESENT:
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`Vivek Subramanian, University of California, Berkeley
`Jay Lo, Wintek
`Sophie Kuo, TPK Touch Solutions
`Nihat Deniz Bayramoglu, TPK Touch Solutions
`Huanyi Lin, TPK Touch Solutions
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` JOSHUA R. SMITH
` EXAMINATION INDEX
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`EXAMINATION BY PAGE
`Mr. Palys 5
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` EXHIBIT INDEX
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`EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION PAGE
`EXHIBIT 1019 14-page U.S. Patent No. 8,217,902. 115
`EXHIBIT 1020 1-page diagram drawn by Mr. Palys. 115
`EXHIBIT 1021 1-page diagram drawn by Mr. Palys. 116
`EXHIBIT 1022 16-page U.S. Patent No. 6,188,391. 116
`EXHIBIT 1023 38-page U.S. Patent No. 5,543,590. 119
`EXHIBIT 1024 19-page U.S. Patent Application 151
` No. US 2008/0309625.
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` JOSHUA R. SMITH
`DEPOSITION OF JOSHUA R. SMITH
`Thursday, September 4, 2014
`8:59 a.m.
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`Page 6
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`JOSHUA R. SMITH, having been first duly sworn, was examined
`and testified as follows:
`
`EXAMINATION
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Good morning.
` A. Good morning.
` Q. Could you please state your name and spell it
`for the record.
` A. Joshua R. Smith. J-O-S-H-U-A, R, S-M-I-T-H.
` Q. And can you please provide the reporter your
`current address.
` A. 1439 East Ward Street, Seattle, Washington
`98112.
` Q. Is it Mr. Smith? Dr. Smith? What do you prefer?
`Josh?
` A. "Dr. Smith" is fine.
` Q. Okay. You earned it. I'll call you
`"Dr. Smith."
` So Dr. Smith, you provided opinions relating to
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`U.S. Patent No. 8,217,902 on behalf of TPK; correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. Handing the witness a document that was
`previously labeled Exhibit TPK 2002 in relation to IPR
`2013-00567.
` Do you want a copy of these?
` MR. TANG: I would. Thank you.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Also handing the witness a document that was
`previously labeled TPK 2002 (Exhibit 2002) for IPR
`2013-00568.
` Dr. Smith, looking at the first Exhibit 2002 for
`IPR 2013-00567, I'm going to refer to these cases, the
`long case number, by the last these digits. So when I
`refer to the -567 case, matter, you understand that I'm
`referring to IPR 2013-00567; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And I'll do the same thing for the -568 matter.
`You would understand when I use the -568 matter or case,
`I'm referring to IPR 2013-00568?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And for the -567 matter, there's also another
`proceeding or case number that's associated with that, and
`that is IPR 2014-00541.
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` Do you understand that?
` A. Yep. Yes, I do.
` Q. Okay. So when I refer to the -567 case, that
`will also include the -541.
` A. Understood.
` Q. All right. Great.
` For the -567 Exhibit 2002, is this a copy of the
`declaration you provided on behalf of TPK?
` A. It looks like it.
` Q. And on the last page, is that your signature,
`sir?
` A. Second-to-last page?
` Q. Second-to-last page, right.
` A. Yes.
` Q. And the same question for the -568, Exhibit
`2002. Is that the declaration that you provided on behalf
`of TPK for the -568 matter?
` A. You said "2002." You're going to call this
`-568; right?
` Q. Yeah, I'll try. Since they have the same
`exhibit number, I'm going to refer to the -568 Exhibit
`2002 and the -567 Exhibit 2002.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Or I might just say your declaration or
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`testimony for the -567 matter.
` A. Okay.
` Q. You understand which document I'll be referring
`to; right?
` A. Yes. So this is -568 and -- yeah, it looks like
`my signature there on the second-to-last page, yeah.
` Q. Okay. Thank you.
` And you understand that your opinions in your
`declarations for the -568 and -567 matter relate to U.S.
`Patent No. 8,217,902; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And I'm going to refer to that patent as the
`-902 patent.
` Do you understand what I mean by that?
` A. That's fine, yeah.
` Q. Okay. Great.
` So Dr. Smith, regarding the -567 matter, your
`declaration in the -567 matter, what information did you
`review to support your opinions in that declaration?
` A. I reviewed the references that are listed in --
`not in these documents but in the list of exhibits in the
`TPK Patent Owner's Response.
` If you have that list, I can show you which ones.
` Q. Okay. Handing the witness a copy of Patent
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`Owner's Final Response to Petition for the -567 and -541
`matters.
` A. Thank you.
` Q. Is this -- the document that I just handed you,
`sir, is that the document you were referring to?
` A. I believe it is. And here's the list of
`exhibits that I was talking about.
` Q. On what page, sir?
` A. Page vii.
` And basically I reviewed things listed TPK -- you
`know, up to -- up to TPK 2016 (Exhibit 2016). And beyond
`that, these are not things that I reviewed -- or that I
`based my opinion on.
` Q. Okay. So Exhibits TPK 2001 through 2016
`(Exhibit 2016) identified on page vii of Patent Owner's
`Response for the -567 and -541 matter are the documents
`and information that you reviewed to support your opinions
`in your declaration for those matters; correct?
` A. Close. I mean, TPK 2002 is my declaration.
` Q. Okay.
` A. 2003 is my CV. I think the others are all
`references that I consulted.
` Q. Now, are there any other material or information
`that you reviewed to support your declarations for the
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`-567 and -541 matter?
` A. I mean, there are, of course, a lot of documents
`that I've read over the years that have just become part
`of my sort of background knowledge, and of course all of
`those are included, but nothing specifically otherwise.
` Q. Do you recall -- did you rely on any of these
`documents that you previously reviewed to support your
`opinions in your declarations?
` A. Not specifically. The specific references are
`the ones listed here.
` Q. Okay. Did you review the -902 patent?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And that's Exhibit 1001 in these matters,
`so I assume that's another document that you reviewed?
` A. [Speaking simultaneously] -- additional
`reference, yes.
` Q. Okay.
` THE COURT REPORTER: May I ask that you wait
`until he completely finishes his question before you start
`your answer? I can't write or hear when two people are
`talking at the same time.
` THE WITNESS: Okay.
` THE COURT REPORTER: Thank you.
`///
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`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Did you review the file history for the -902
`patent?
` A. No, I didn't.
` Q. Do you understand what the file history is, when
`I say that?
` A. I do.
` Q. Okay. And you're an inventor of several
`patents; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. So you understand the file history provides
`information on communications between an applicant and the
`patent office while a patent application is being
`prosecuted; correct?
` A. Yes, I understand that.
` Q. And you didn't review any of that information
`for the -902 patent?
` A. No, I didn't.
` Q. Have you ever looked at the file history for the
`-902 patent?
` A. No, I haven't.
` Q. So have you looked at anything to support your
`opinions regarding the -567 and -541 matters relating to
`the -902 patent other than the patent itself?
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` A. Can you clarify? I mean, we just talked about a
`long list of exhibits.
` Q. Okay. Let me rephrase the question for you.
`Other than the list of exhibits -- the documents in the
`list of exhibits that you identified to me and the -902
`patent, is there anything else -- any other information
`that you reviewed and relied upon to support your opinions
`in your -567 and -541 declaration?
` MR. TANG: Object to the form.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Do you understand my question, sir?
` A. I'm not sure I do understand the question.
` I mean, I already indicated that, you know,
`there's all kinds of background over the years that I've
`read. Certainly all of those things, you know, informed
`my opinions somehow.
` You know, I understand what capacitance is for
`all kinds of reasons. I can't possibly list every
`document that has informed my understanding of those
`things, but I've listed the things that I specifically
`consulted.
` Q. Did you look at -- did you review and consider
`any of the references that were identified on the front
`face of the -902 patent to support your opinions in your
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`declarations?
` A. I mean, some of them, I think, show up in other
`places. In other words, some of those references may show
`up here. I certainly didn't exhaustively go through and
`look at all the references that were listed on the front
`face.
` Q. Did you review any of the -- let me take a step
`back.
` Are you aware that there was an ex parte
`reexamination for the -902 patent?
` A. No.
` Q. So you didn't review any of the file history for
`the ex parte reexamination relating to the -902 patent in
`support of your opinions for your declarations; correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. Did you do any -- well, let me take a step back.
`Sorry.
` I've been asking you questions relating to the
`-567 and -541 matters in terms of what you reviewed to
`support your opinions in the declaration for those
`matters; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Would your answer be the same for those
`questions in relation to the -568 matter and your
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`declaration?
` A. Yes.
` Q. So other than the exhibits that you identified
`in the Patent Owner's Response and the -902 patent and
`possibly some of these -- information that you may know
`from your knowledge from your previous work, you didn't
`look at any other information to support your opinions for
`your declaration in the -568 matter; correct?
` MR. TANG: Object to the form.
` THE WITNESS: Correct. The answer is the
`same.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Same.
` A. -567 and -568.
` Q. Did you do any research to support your opinions
`in your declarations in the -567 and -568 cases?
` A. Could you clarify what you mean by "research"?
` Q. Sure. Okay. Let's start with, did you do a
`search for any information that might -- that you may have
`relied upon to support your opinions in the -567 and -568
`matters?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What type of research or what type of searches
`did you do?
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` MR. TANG: Object to the form.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Do you understand my question, sir?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay.
` A. I mean, I did -- I did some searching for
`articles that seemed relevant. I also looked at previous
`files I had already accumulated that cover the subject
`matter. I looked through those to see if there were
`documents that were relevant.
` Q. Okay. So you did -- excuse me. You searched
`for articles that you may have thought were relevant to
`the -902 patent; correct?
` A. Correct, and to the whole proceedings.
` Q. Patent proceedings.
` And you've also looked at some of your own
`personal files for any information that might be relevant
`to the -902 patent or these proceedings; correct?
` A. Correct. Some of those files contained articles
`that I previously, you know, found.
` Q. So that second part, the files that you had,
`these are files that were in your possession; is that
`correct?
` A. Correct.
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` Q. Either electronically or hard copies?
` A. Correct.
` Q. So both types?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. Just to clarify the record, the Patent
`Owner Response that you have in front of you for the -567
`and -568 matter, that is Paper No. 27 in those
`proceedings.
` MR. TANG: Did you mean -541?
` MR. PALYS: -567 and -541 matter, yes, the
`Patent Owner Response that -- let me clarify the record
`here.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. The Patent Owner Response that you've been
`looking at to answer some of the questions that I've asked
`you, sir, that you have before you that relates to the
`-567 and -541 matter, that is Paper No. 27 in those
`proceedings.
` Do you understand that?
` A. Paper No. 27 -- no, I don't understand that.
` Q. I'll represent to you that that's the paper
`number in the file at the proceeding.
` A. Okay.
` Q. And just to make sure the record is clear, I'm
`
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`going to hand you a copy of Patent Owner's Final Response
`to Petition for the -568 matter, and that is Paper No. 28
`in that proceeding.
` And Dr. Smith, on page vii -- or vi and vii of
`Patent Owner's Response for the -568 matter, Paper No. 28,
`there's list of exhibits similar to the list of exhibits
`that was on the -567 response; correct?
` A. Mm-hm. Yes.
` Q. Is it true that Exhibits 2001 through 2016
`(Exhibit 2016) include information -- include all of the
`information out of that list of exhibits that you reviewed
`and considered in support of your opinions for your
`declaration in the -568 matter?
` A. Yeah. Same answer as before.
` I reviewed the -902 patent as well.
` Q. Okay.
` A. Sir, turn to your declaration for the -567
`matter, Exhibit TPK 2002.
` Q. You provided -- well, let me start with this.
` You have a section called "Technology Background"
`that starts on page 8 of that declaration; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And that section goes from page 8 to page 30 of
`your declaration in the -567 matter; correct?
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` A. Yes.
` Q. You also -- if you turn to your declaration for
`the -568 matter, you also have a section in that
`declaration called "Technology Section," Section 4, that
`begins on page 8; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And that "Technology Background" section in the
`-568 declaration extends from page 8 to page 29 of your
`-568 declaration; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Is the "Technology Section" in the -567
`declaration, excuse me, the same as the "Technology
`Background" section in the -568 matter in your
`declarations?
` A. I believe so.
` Q. Okay. So I'm going to ask you questions in
`relation to the -567 declaration. I'm going to assume
`your answers relating to that section is going to relate
`to both the -567 and -568 matters; okay?
` If you have -- well, is that a "yes"?
` A. I acknowledge what you said.
` Q. Okay. If you have a question or you feel that a
`question that I ask you may not pertain to both matters,
`will you let me know?
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` A. I will -- I will attempt to do that, yes.
` Q. And we'll try to clarify which one -- which
`matter we'll be referring to, the -567 or -568 matter, in
`relation to my questions in the "Technology Background"
`section of your declaration; okay?
` A. Okay.
` Q. So let's look to your -567 declaration. Turn to
`page 8. And in Section 4A, you have testimony there
`regarding capacitive and capacitive touch panels; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And on page 9, paragraph 23, you mentioned that
`"Capacitive touch panels detect the location of touch as a
`function in change of capacitance."
` Did I read that correctly?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And you also testify that "Capacitance is a
`measure of the ability of an arrangement of conductors to
`store charge in response to an applied voltage"; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And in paragraph 24, you testify that "A
`capacitor is defined by the equation Q equals CV";
`correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. And what is Q in that equation?
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` A. Charge.
` Q. And what is V?
` A. Voltage.
` Q. And what is C?
` A. Capacitance.
` Q. In what values are capacitance generally
`measured?
` A. Farads.
` Q. What value is charge typically measured in?
` A. Coulombs.
` Q. Can you spell that for the reporter, please?
` A. C-O-U-L-O-M-B-S. Did I get it right?
` Q. I was using her an excuse, but it was for me
`too.
` And, sir, if you could please turn to page 35 of
`your -567 declaration.
` A. Okay.
` Q. You have a section, that section V.B, that's
`entitled "Interpretation of Terms in the -902 Patent";
`correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Is this section your opinions regarding the
`interpretation of terms used in the -902 patent? Correct?
` A. Yes, it is.
`
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` Q. And those -- your testimony begins on paragraph
`76 and extends to paragraph -- paragraph 84 ending on page
`39; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And you have a -- in the -568 declaration, you
`also have a section entitled "Interpretation of Terms in
`the -902 Patent"; correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. Are your opinions in the "Interpretation of
`Terms in the -902 Patent" section for the -567 matter the
`same as your opinions in that section for the -568 matter?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Did you interpret any terms in the -902 patent
`differently between the -567 and the -568 matters?
` A. No, I don't believe so.
` Q. Okay. So let's focus on the -567 declaration.
`On page -- I guess page 35, paragraph 76. Let's talk
`about your interpretation of these terms a little bit;
`okay?
` A. Mm-hm. Yes.
` Q. You provide an opinion in both the -567 and -568
`matters relating to the interpretation of the claim term
`"conductor cells"; correct?
` A. Correct.
`
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` Q. And you also provided an interpretation of the
`claim term "conduction lines" for both of these matters;
`correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. Can you explain to me the process that you went
`through to come to those -- interpretation of those claim
`terms?
` A. Can you clarify what do you mean by, you know,
`what -- what process did I go through? I mean...
` Q. Okay. So you were going to -- you provided an
`interpretation of the claim term "conduction cells";
`correct?
` A. Mm-hm.
` Q. What did you do first to come to that conclusion
`of your definition of the term "conduction cell"?
` A. Well, we -- I was in discussion with the
`attorneys about, you know, all the subject matter,
`including this, so we discussed this.
` Q. So the first thing you did when you went to
`interpret the claim term "conduction cell" was talk to
`attorneys; is that right?
` MR. TANG: Object to the form.
` You can answer, but I'll just caution the witness
`not to reveal privileged communications.
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` MR. PALYS: I'm not asking -- thank you.
` THE WITNESS: I understand.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. I'm not asking for the subject matter of that
`discussion. Just in general. I don't want to ask what
`you talked about with your attorneys.
` But is it your testimony that the first step you
`took to determine the interpretation of the term
`"conduction cells" was to speak to TPK's attorneys?
` A. Well, I don't recall exactly the details of how
`the opinions were formulated. I mean, there was a whole
`series of iterations of conversations, looking at
`materials, iterating back and forth, looking at other
`things, so I can't recall exactly what the first step was.
` Q. Okay. You mentioned you looked at materials and
`other things. What materials did you review to support
`your interpretation of the term "conductor cells"?
` A. Principally, the -902 patent itself.
` Q. Anything else?
` A. I would say that's the main -- that's the main
`one, plus, you know, just -- I guess I would say that's
`the main -- main thing that I looked at.
` Q. When you say "the main thing," is there anything
`else that you looked at?
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` A. Well, I don't recall specifically. You know,
`it's been a long iterative process, so...
` Q. Is it fair to say that the materials that you
`said that you reviewed to support your opinion regarding
`the interpretation of the claim term "conduction cells"
`is -- would be limited to the information that you
`identified to me earlier on all the materials that you
`looked at to support your opinions in relation to the -567
`and -568 matters?
` MR. TANG: Object to form.
` THE WITNESS: Can you ask the question
`again?
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Sure. I'll break it down.
` A. Or clarify it.
` Q. You testified that -- you looked at the -902
`patent to help you with your interpretation for the claim
`term "conduction cells"; correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. Okay. And then you mentioned that you looked at
`materials and other things to support that interpretation;
`correct?
` A. Correct. And throughout, of course, we were
`discussing these matters as well.
`
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` Q. Right. What I'm trying to do is understand what
`are these other materials that you looked at.
` Now, I understand you looked at the -902 patent,
`but what other materials did you review?
` A. I mean, there are many that are listed here.
`You know, for example, Walker, which is one of the
`exhibits, is one of the other things that I looked at.
` Q. So Walker, which is Exhibit 2008 in, for
`example, the -567 matter, you relied on information in
`Exhibit 2008 to support your opinion regarding your
`interpretation of the claim term "conductor cells"; is
`that right?
` A. Correct.
` Q. I'm handing the witness a document that was
`previously labeled Exhibit TPK 2008 in the -567 matter.
`It's entitled "Part 1, Fundamentals of Projected
`Capacitive Touch Technology" by Geoff Walker.
` Sir, Exhibit 2008, which I just provided to you,
`is this the Walker document that you referenced that you
`relied upon to help you with interpretation of the claim
`terms of the -902 patent?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And Exhibit 2008, another copy or version
`of that exhibit, was also provided in the -568 matter;
`
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`correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. So is your answer relating to your opinions on
`the interpretation of the claim term "conductor cells" for
`the -567 matter, is that the same answer you'd give in
`relation to the -568 matter?
` A. Actually, can we back up?
` Q. Sure.
` A. I don't know if this is the right Walker here.
` Q. Okay.
` A. This is June 2014. I know he's joined Intel. I
`see "Intel" branding on this. So actually, I'm not sure
`this is the correct Walker, although I'm sure there's
`plenty of good information in here.
` Q. Okay. You relied on Walker Exhibit 2008 to
`support your opinions in your declarations; correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. Okay. And do you believe that the information
`provided by Mr. Walker in Exhibit 2008 are accurate
`representations?
` A. Generally speaking, yes. And I also think that
`they represent, you know, kind of a view of how things are
`understood broadly in the industry.
` Q. And you agree with the information that's
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`presented in Exhibit 2008; correct?
` A. Generally speaking. There may be things that I
`don't agree with in there, but there certainly are some
`things that I think are correct and useful.
` Q. What information in Exhibit 2008 don't you agree
`with?
` MR. TANG: Object to the form.
` THE WITNESS: Yeah, I don't know -- I'm also
`confused. Is this the exhibit, or is this something else
`from Geoff Walker?
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. This is -- I'll get to that question about --
`there's another exhibit, by the way, from Geoff Walker in
`the record, but --
` A. So this is actually something new; right?
` Q. Let me -- sorry. I'll ask the question to make
`it clear for you.
` Have you ever seen Exhibit 2008 before?
` A. Is this 2008?
` MR. PALYS: Counsel, I'd appreciate it if
`you don't nod your head during the question because it
`kind of suggests the answer to the witness, so -- to
`clarify that.
`///
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`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. You can see on the bottom right-hand corner --
`do you see an exhibit label?
` A. Yes.
` Q. So that is a copy of Exhibit 2008.
` A. Okay.
` Q. So my question to you, just to make sure the
`record is clear and to make sure you're not confused, sir,
`is: Have you seen Exhibit 2008 before?
` A. Yes, I have. I haven't seen it printed out.
` Q. You've seen it electronically?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And getting back to Exhibit 2008, you
`mentioned that there's information in Exhibit 2008 that
`you may not agree with; correct?
` MR. TANG: Object to form.
` THE WITNESS: Well, simply, you know, this
`is -- this is quite a long document, so I can't
`necessarily say that, you know, I agree with everything in
`it.
` If there are specific things you can ask me, and
`I'll answer whether I agree with them.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. You reviewed and relied on Exhibit 2008 to
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`support your opinions in
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