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`Case No. 2:12—CV—05680—AI
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`________________________________ X
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`:GHLY CONE
`i ” AI — ATTORNI
`1 £8 ON1Y**
`
`Tuesday, Cetober 15, 2013
`
`1650 Market Street
`
`Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
`
`Reported by:
`
`
`
`
`AYPfiTTfi GONHALfiH, KER, CLR
`
`J03 66673
`
`TSG Reporting — Worldwide
`
`877—702—9580
`
`Target Corporation Exhibit 1157
`
`Target v. DMC
`
`IPR2013-OO530, 531, 532, 533
`
`
`
`

`

`Page 24
`HENDRICKSON - FHGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS‘ EYES ONL
`
`DATE: October 15, 2013
`TIME: 10:46 a.111.
`
`Page 3+
`HENDRICKSON - FHGFEY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS‘ EYES ONL
`APPEARANCES:
`
`Highly Confidential - Attorneys Eyes Only Videotaped
`Deposition of LISA HENDRICKSON, held at the
`offices of DLA PIPER, 1650 Market
`Street, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania,
`pursuant to NOTICE, before AYLETTE GONZALEZ,
`a Registered Professional Reporter,
`Certified LiveNote Reporter and Notary
`Public of the States of New York and New
`
`Jersey.
`
`DLA PIPER
`Counsel for Plaintiff
`1251 Avenue of the Americas
`
`New York, New York 10020
`BY: TAMAR DUVDEVANI, ESQ.
`
`FAEGRE BAKER DANIELS
`Counsel for Defendants
`
`300 North Meridian Street, Suite 2700
`Indianapolis, Indiana 46204
`BY: TREVOR CARTER, ESQ.
`BY: MATTHEW ENNIS, ESQ.
`
`Page 4
`HENDRICKSON - FHGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS‘ EYES ONL
`THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This video
`
`deposition is now beginning. The date
`is October 15, 2013. The time is
`10:46. This is the video deposition
`of Lisa Hendrickson taken in the
`
`matter of Destination Maternity
`Corporation versus Target Corporation,
`et a1., in the United States District
`Court of Eastern Pennsylvania, Number
`2-12-CV-05680—AB.
`Counsel will now introduce
`themselves.
`
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Tamar Duvdevani,
`DLA Piper on behalf of Plaintiff,
`Destination Maternity.
`MS. HAN: Kristen Han of
`
`Destination Maternity Corporation,
`in-house Counsel.
`MR. CARTER: Trevor Carter from
`
`Faegre Baker Daniels on behalf of
`Target Corporation.
`MR. ENNIS: Matthew Ennis from
`
`Faegre Baker Daniels on behalf of
`Target Corporation.
`
` 2
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
`
`KRISTEN D. HAN, DESTINATION MATERNITY
`
`GERALD ALFE, Videographer
`
`Page 5
`HENDRICKSON - FHGFEY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS‘ EYES ONL
`
`LISA HENDRICKSON,
`
`called as a witness, having been
`first duly swom by a Notaly Public
`of the State of New York, was
`examined and testified as follows:
`EXAMINATION BY
`MR. CARTER:
`
`Q. Good morning, Ms. Hendrickson. How
`are you?
`A. Good morning.
`Q. Could you please state and spell
`your name for the record.
`A. Lisa Hendrickson; L-I-S-A,
`H-E-N-D-R-I-C-K-S-O-N.
`
`Q. Have you had your deposition taken
`before?
`A.
`
`I have not.
`
`Q. Okay. So, a few ground rules.
`I‘ll be asking questions. You‘ll be
`answering. From time to time, your Counsel
`may lodge objections. For the sake of the
`Court Reporter, only one of us should speak at
`a time. So, I will do my best not to
`interrupt anyone. So, just be mindful of that
`
`(Pages
`
`2 to 5)
`
`TSG Reporting — Worldwide
`
`877—702—9580
`
`Target Corporation Exhibit 1157
`
`Target v. DMC
`
`|PR2013-OO530, 531, 532, 533
`
`

`

`Page 64
`HENDRICKSON - FHGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS‘ EYES ONL
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`Page 7
`HENDRICKSON - FHGFEY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS‘ EYES ONL
`
`for the Court Reporter.
`I also see you're shaking your
`head, nodding?
`A. Yes. I should be saying, "I
`understand. "
`
`Q. Very common. Very common, but the
`Court Reporter can‘t take down nods so we‘ll
`need audible responses.
`A.
`I understand.
`Q. You can take a break whenever you‘d
`like. This isn‘t a marathon. So, the Court
`
`Reporter -- the Videographer said the tapes
`last one hour and 20 minutes so we may go
`close to that long. Ifyou need a break
`sooner, just let us know. The only exception
`is we don't break on a pending question.
`A.
`I understand.
`Q. So, ifyou want to take a break,
`please let me know before I ask another
`question.
`A.
`I understand.
`Q.
`If you don‘t understand one of my
`questions, please let me know and I‘ll do my
`best to rephrase it.
`
`I understand.
`A.
`If you answer one of the questions
`Q.
`I‘m going to assume that you understood the
`question.
`A.
`I understand.
`
`Q
`Is that fair?
`.
`A. Yes.
`Q
`. Okay.
`(Exhibit 40, Defendant‘s Notice of
`Rule 30(b)(6), Deposition of Lisa
`Hendrickson, marked for
`
`identification, as of this date.)
`BY MR. CARTER:
`Q. Ms. Hendrickson, I handed you a
`document marked Exhibit 40. Have you seen
`Exhibit 40.
`A.
`I don‘t know. I have -- you just
`handed it to me.
`(Exhibit 41, Defendant Target‘s
`Notice of the Deposition of Plaintiff
`Destination Maternity Corporation
`Pursuant to Fed.R.CiV.P.30(b)(6),
`marked for identification, as of this
`date.)
`
` 3
`
`Page 8
`HENDRICKSON - FHGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS‘ EYES ONL
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`Page 9
`HENDRICKSON - FHGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS‘ EYES ONL
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`BY MR. CARTER:
`Q. And the Court Reporter has also
`handed you a document marked as Exhibit 41.
`A. Correct.
`Q. Have you seen Exhibit 41?
`A.
`I don‘t know. You‘ve just handed
`it to me.
`Q. Please take a look at Exhibits 40
`and 41.
`
`A. This is going to take me a long
`time to read.
`
`Q. Have you seen Exhibit 41?
`A.
`I‘ve seen Exhibit 40, andI read
`Exhibit 40.
`Q. Okay. You haven‘t seen Exhibit 41
`before today?
`A.
`I don't know. You've given me a
`document of 19 pages, so...
`Q. Okay. Let me help you out. Ifyou
`skip to page 13, you see there‘s a heading,
`"Topics for Examination"?
`A.
`I do.
`
`Q. Okay. Have you looked at any of
`the topics listed on pages 13 through 19?
`
`A. You‘ll have to give me a few
`minutes to read it.
`Q. Okay. Let me see if I can short
`circuit this. Ifyou look at Topic 17.
`A.
`I have read 17.
`Q. Okay. You understand that you are
`here today as a witness on behalf of
`Destination Maternity --
`A.
`I do.
`
`-- for certain topics set out in
`Q.
`Exhibit 41?
`
`A. Yes, I have not read all of the
`topics of 41.
`Q. Okay. And then you also understand
`that you are here today for your deposition of
`your personal knowledge?
`A. That is correct.
`Q. Okay. If there is a point today
`when I ask you a question and your personal
`knowledge is different from your corporate
`knowledge, can you let me know that there is a
`difference?
`
`I will let you know if there is a
`A.
`difference.
`
`'
`
`'
`
`(Pages 6 to 9)
`
`TSG Reporting — Worldwide
`
`877—702—9580
`
`Target Corporation Exhibit 1157
`
`Target v. DMC
`
`|PR2013-OO530, 531, 532, 533
`
`

`

`Page 10;
`HENDRICKSON - FHGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS‘ EYES ONL
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`Q. Otherwise, when you give an answer,
`I will assume that your cmporate knowledge
`and your personal knowledge are one and the
`same?
`A.
`
`I understand.
`
`Q. Okay. Thank you.
`MR. CARTER: Counsel, just to
`short circuit this, can we go through
`and get on the record all the topics
`for Ms. Hendrickson in Exhibit 41?
`NS. DUVDEVANI: Sure.
`
` 4
`
`MR. CARTER: 32, in part.
`MS. DUVDEVANI: 32, in part.
`MR. CARTER: 34, in whole.
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Yes.
`
`MR. CARTER: 35, in part. 44, in
`part. 45, in whole. 46, in whole and
`72, in part.
`I‘ll just add for
`MS. DUVDEVANI:
`the record that all of those topics
`are subject to the objections that
`were lodged by Destination Maternity
`to those topics.
`MR. CARTER: And didI miss any
`topics for which Destination Maternity
`is providing Ms. Hendrickson as a
`corporate representative today?
`MS. DUVDEVANI: As far as I can
`
`tell, no. We did go through it prior
`to the deposition and it sounded like
`the same list, that sounded correct.
`MR. CARTER: Okay. Yes, I tried
`to read the same thing we discussed
`before the deposition.
`BY MR. CARTER:
`
`lVR. CARTER: So, Ihave
`Ms. Iendrickson as a corporate
`representative for Topic 17.
`IV S. DUVDEVANI: In part.
`NR. CARTER: 19, in part. 20, in
`whole. 23, in part. 28, in whole.
`30, in whole.
`IV S. DUVDEVANI: Hold on.
`
`A. Hard time following.
`IV S. DUVDEVANI: Okay. 28, in
`whole.
`
` N S. DUVDEVANI: Yes.
`
`MR. CARTER: 30, in whole?
`
`Page 12
`HENDRICKSON - FHGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS‘ EYES ONL
`
`Page 13
`HENDRICKSON - FHGFEY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS‘ EYES ONL
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`Q. All right. Ms. Hendrickson, what
`is your education, after high school?
`A.
`I have a four-year degree from Iowa
`State University, double majored in fashion
`merchandising and design.
`Q. And what year did you receive that
`degree?
`A. 1983.
`
`Q. Okay. Any other education other
`than your Iowa State degree?
`A. No.
`
`Q. And is that a Bachelors of Arts or
`Bachelors of Science degree?
`A.
`I‘m not sure I remember. I think
`
`it‘s a Bachelors of Science, but I‘m not sure.
`Q.
`It‘s a four-year degree?
`A.
`It is a four-year degree.
`Q. Okay. Do you have any other
`certifications or professional training that
`you have done since then?
`A. No.
`
`Q. Okay. What was your first job
`following graduation from Iowa State?
`A. My firstjob -- my firstjob was
`
`with a company called the Ingram Collection.
`Q. Okay. And what did you do for the
`Ingram Collection?
`A.
`I was an assistant to the
`
`production manager.
`Q. How long were you with the Ingram
`Collection?
`
`A. Maybe ayear.
`Q. So, 1983 to ‘84?
`A. Approximately.
`Q. What were your duties at the Ingram
`Collection as an assistant to the production
`manager?
`A. Chief gofer. I -- it was a catalog
`firm. I ran errands. Ipacked boxes. I did
`whatever I was asked to do.
`
`Q. Okay. You said a catalog firm.
`What do you mean by that?
`A. A merchandise catalog.
`Q. What kind of products?
`A. Women‘s wear.
`
`Q. Did the Ingram Collection
`manufacture products?
`A. We did not manufacture.
`
`(Pages
`
`10 to 13)
`
`TSG Reporting — Worldwide
`
`877—702—9580
`
`Target Corporation Exhibit 1157
`
`Target v. DMC
`
`|PR2013-OO530, 531, 532, 533
`
`

`

`Page 14;
`HENDRICKSON - FHGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS‘ EYES ONL
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`Page 15
`HENDRICKSON - FHGFEY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS‘ EYES ONL
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`Q. Have products manufactured?
`A.
`I don't believe so.
`
`Q. So, you were merely selling
`products that other vendors were providing?
`A. Correct.
`
`Q. Okay. Were you -- do you recall
`any maternity products being sold by the
`Ingram Collection when you worked there?
`A. No.
`
`Q. So, in this case -- are you aware
`of the products that are in dispute in this
`case?
`
`I am aware that Target has been
`A.
`infiinging on our patented Secret Fit Belly.
`Q. Okay. That‘s your opinion?
`A. That is my opinion.
`Q. Okay. And on what do you base that
`opinion?
`A. Based on seeing product that I
`believe is the same as our patented product in
`stores and online.
`
`Q. Okay. What about Target‘s product
`leads you to believe that its infringing?
`A.
`It has the key attributes of our
`
`Page 16
`HENDRICKSON - FHGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS‘ EYES ONL
`
`A. Not really, because it‘s always
`sort of right below the bust line. So it‘s
`kind of where the bust and the top of the
`abdomen meet. So, it‘s basically at the same
`place.
`It‘s not an exact measurement, but it
`is below the bust and at the top of the
`abdomen.
`
`Q. How do you define where the abdomen
`
`is?
`
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`A. The abdomen area is a person‘s
`abdomen where your stomach and organs and
`uterus, I guess, would be.
`Q. Okay. And where is the bottom of
`the rib cage compared to the abdomen in the
`ampire line?
`A.
`I don't know I mean I can feel in
`
`my own abdomen, butI don‘t really want to do
`that on camera.
`It‘s, I would say, the bottom
`of the rib cages, I guess in the middle of
`your abdomen.
`Q.
`Is the ampire line at the same
`place for all women?
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`
`product.
`Q. Okay. And what are those?
`A. They have a band, a belly band that
`expands with a growing abdomen. It comes up
`over the belly and reaches to almost the
`ampire line.
`Q. You said comes up over the belly?
`. To the ampire line.
`. Can you spell ampire?
`. Ampire, empire, A-M-P-I-R-E.
`. And what is the -- it isn‘t empire,
`
`it‘s --
`
`A. Ampire is how it is pronounced in
`the fashion business. And the definition is
`
`approximately where it‘s right below the bust
`line. So, it was in French fashion that was
`
`created the ampire silhouette.
`Q. Dose the ump --
`A. Ampire.
`Q. Does the ampire line change based
`on whether a woman is pregnant or not
`pregnant?
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`You can answer.
`
`Page 17
`HENDRICKSON - FHGFEY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS‘ EYES ONL
`THE WITNESS: Is that an
`
`objection?
`MS. DUVDEVANI: You can answer if
`
`you understand the question.
`A. Would you repeat it again, please?
`Q.
`Is the ampire line at the same
`place for all women?
`A. Not exactly the same place because
`every torso is different. Som it‘s at the
`same place, but you can‘t give a fixed
`measurement. My waist and abdomen is a
`different length than somebody who would be
`six-foot tall. But the general meeting
`between the bust and the abdomen is about at
`
`the same spot in everyone.
`Q. Okay. So you said somebody who‘s
`taller than you would have the ampire line at
`a different spot?
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`Q. Compared to you.
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`A. Not at a different spot, but if
`you‘re doing a measurement from high point of
`shoulder, the measurement would not be exactly
`
` 5
`
`(Pages
`
`14 to 17)
`
`TSG Reporting — Worldwide
`
`877—702—9580
`
`Target Corporation Exhibit 1157
`
`Target v. DMC
`
`|PR2013-OO530, 531, 532, 533
`
`

`

`Page 18;
`HENDRICKSON - FHGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS‘ EYES ONL
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`HENDRICKSON - FHGFEY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS‘ EYES ONL
`
`the same on everybody.
`Q. Okay. How about instead of
`measuring from top of the shoulder, is there a
`place where can you measure from below up to
`the ampire line?
`A. The standard point of measurement
`is from a high shoulder point if you‘re
`measuring down for bust point and ampire line,
`a waistline.
`
`Q. Okay. Can you measure from a point
`below the ampire line up to the ampire line?
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`A. You can measure different -- the
`measurement would be different if a woman was
`
`-- had no belly, was siX months pregnant, was
`pregnant with twins because you'd have to come
`up and over to measure to -- ifyou were
`measuring below.
`Q. So, is there a place on a woman‘s
`body where you‘re aware -- excuse me. That
`anyone has measured up to the ampire line?
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`A. Can you please repeat the question?
`Q.
`Is there a place on a woman‘s body
`
`where you are aware that anyone has measured
`up to the ampire line?
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`A. Not to my knowledge.
`Q. That isn‘t something that‘s done in
`the industry?
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`A. Generally. no.
`Q. And why is that? You had mentioned
`that if a woman was pregnant, that that would
`impact the measurement?
`A. Yes, if you were pregnant,
`depending on your torso length.
`Q. Anything else?
`A. Not that I can think of.
`
`Q. So, ifyou were pregnant, it would
`make a difference in measuring up to the
`ampire line?
`A. Depending on where you were
`measuring it from. yes.
`Q. And it would differ based on your
`stage of pregnancy?
`A. Correct.
`
`Q. And your torso length would also
`
` 6
`
`Page 20
`HENDRICKSON - FHGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS‘ EYES ONL
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`Page 21
`HENDRICKSON - FHGFEY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS‘ EYES ONL
`
`impact the measurement up to the ampire line?
`A. Correct.
`
`Q. Whalis the torso?
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`I don‘t know the technical
`
`A.
`
`definition, but torso generally means the
`upper half of your body, I believe.
`Q. Does torso include all of the
`abdomen?
`
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`I don‘t know technically. I would
`A.
`say yes, but I don‘t know technically.
`Q. Okay. Well, when you said torso
`length would impact measuring up to the ampire
`line, what were you referring to?
`A. The upper half of someone‘s body.
`Q. Okay. Would the abdomen length
`impact the measurement up to the ampire line?
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`I would guess, yes.
`A.
`Q. And when you‘re speaking of
`measuring up to the ampire line and saying
`there would be a difference based on stage of
`pregnancy; is that correct?
`
`A. Please say that again.
`Q. You were speaking of measuring up
`to the ampire line and you could have
`differences based on stage of pregnancy,
`correct?
`A. Correct.
`
`. Torso length?
`. Correct.
`
`. Abdomen length?
`. Correct.
`
`. Anything else?
`. Not that I can think of.
`
`Q. Okay. This measurement that you‘re
`speaking of, from what pointed are you
`starting this measurement?
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`I don't measure generally torso
`A.
`length and to the ampire is not measured from
`below. So, there are -- you could pick any
`measurement from below that you wanted. You
`could measure it from the crotch, from the
`knee, but that is not a standard industry
`measurement is to measure up.
`Q. How about measuring from the bottom
`
`(Pages
`
`18 to 21)
`
`TSG Reporting — Worldwide
`
`877—702—9580
`
`Target Corporation Exhibit 1157
`
`Target v. DMC
`
`|PR2013-OO530, 531, 532, 533
`
`

`

`Page 224
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`of the abdomen up?
`A. That would be a more typica --
`that is a measurement that we use in our
`bellies because you are measuring from a place
`underneath the pregnant belly to somewhere
`above the belly. So, in our belly
`measurements, you would measure the abdomen
`from below the belly.
`Q. Okay. Why didn‘t you mention that
`before when I was asking you where would you
`take measurements up to the ampire line?
`A. You didn‘t specifically ask me if I
`was. You said generally where do people
`measure from and most corporations don‘t
`measure from below.
`I‘m speaking specifically
`about a belly, not generally a measurement of
`a body and that‘s why.
`Q. Do you take the belly and abdomen
`to be one and the same?
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`A. No.
`Q. What is the difference?
`A. An abdomen is on a person. A belly
`is a garment or a covering of the abdomen. It
`
`doesn‘t cover the entire abdomen. It covers
`fi'om where the belly protrudes and an abdomen
`covers from -- I mean, it‘s not an exact
`science for a total -- I don‘t have a
`technical, medical knowledge of what is
`considered totally part of the abdomen.
`You‘re asking me to be very
`specific about more of a medical term of what
`is the size of someone‘s abdomen. I don‘t
`know that.
`Q.
`I just want to make sure I‘m clear.
`Does a person have a belly?
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`A. Everyone has an abdomen. I don‘t
`know that you would say that everyone has a
`belly. It depends. Some people have a very
`flat stomach and they don‘t have a belly.
`Q. But some people have a belly?
`A. Correct, some people have a belly.
`Q. So, for people who have a belly,
`how does the belly compare to the abdomen?
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`I don‘t -- I don‘t think that‘s a
`A.
`questionI can answer. Belly and abdomen
`
` 7
`
`Page 24
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`HENDRICKSON - FHGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS‘ EYES ONL
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`an abdomen is not -- does not consist of
`totally your belly. It consists of a whole
`area of internal organs. So, I don't think
`doctors‘ offices use the term, "belly" when
`they‘re describing the abdomen.
`Q. How would you describe the term,
`"belly" on a person as opposed to a garment?
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`I would say that a belly is
`A.
`generally thought of that it‘s somewhat
`protruding. That it has -- sometimes it‘s
`used in conteXt with a pregnant woman.
`Sometimes it‘s used in conteXt of a man with a
`beer belly. So, it generally connotes
`something protruding from the abdomen area.
`Q. Okay. Anything else?
`A. Not that I can think of right now.
`Q. Okay. When you talking about
`measuring up to the ampire line --
`A. Correct.
`Q.
`-- were you talking about measuring
`from -- you‘re talking the bottom of the
`abdomen, the bottom of the belly or both?
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`
`A. When you are talking about a
`maternity panel, we talk about the panel
`stalting below the belly and going up towards
`the ampire line.
`Q. Okay. And is the bottom -- how
`would you define where the bottom of the belly
`is?
`
`A. There‘s not a definite spot of
`where because every woman canies slightly
`differently. So, there isn‘t a specific
`measurement that you can create where you
`could say from the crotch, it‘s always five
`inches up. It depends on the type of fabric
`used. It depends on the height of the person.
`So, there‘s not a specific
`measurement where you start at the bottom of
`the belly. You would tend to start it where a
`belly starts to protrude.
`Q. Okay. The location -- I asked how
`you define where the bottom of the belly is
`and you said it depends on the type of fabric.
`How does the location of the bottom of the
`belly depend on the type of fabric?
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`
`'
`
`'
`
`(Pages 22 to 25)
`
`TSG Reporting — Worldwide
`
`877—702—9580
`
`Target Corporation Exhibit 1157
`
`Target v. DMC
`
`IPR2013-OO530, 531, 532, 533
`
`

`

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`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`It can be impacted by their body
`
`A.
`type.
`
`Q. How about, you had mentioned their
`body structure can impact where the bottom of
`the belly is?
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`A. Yes.
`
`Q. Their weight?
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`A. Yes, I would say.
`Q. And if they are pregnant, how they
`carry?
`A. Yes.
`
`Q. Anything else?
`A. Not that I can think of.
`
`Q. Now, for women, do women only have
`bellies when they are pregnant?
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`A. No, when they are heavy, they also
`might have a belly.
`Q. So, men aren‘t the only ones having
`the attribute of -- of having a non-pregnant
`Belize?
`
`Page 29
`HENDRICKSON - FHGFEY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS‘ EYES ONL
`
`for pregnant women, it will be impacted by how
`they carry?
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`A. Can you ask -- can you ask the
`question again?
`Q. Sure. So you did go through and
`list how the bottom of the belly is impacted
`-- strike that.
`You answered how the location of
`
`the bottom of the belly can differ between
`women who are pregnant. One of those
`differences was how a pregnant women carries.
`Other than how a pregnant woman
`carries, will the bottom of the belly
`difference between women be the same for
`
`non-pregnant women and pregnant women?
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection to form.
`I‘m sorry; I just don‘t understand
`A.
`the question.
`Q. Okay. So for pregnant women, you
`had said the difference in the bottom of belly
`location when you look at different women will
`be impacted by how someone carries, their body
`type -- sorry; you‘re nodding?
`
`(Pages
`
`26 to 29)
`
`TSG Reporting — Worldwide
`
`877—702—9580
`
`Target Corporation Exhibit 1157
`
`Target v. DMC
`
`|PR2013-OO530, 531, 532, 533
`
`A. When you have all pants, either
`pants, jeans or shorts, the only exception
`would be skirts, but on all bottoms, there is
`what‘s called a crotch. And so, you have a
`crotch measurement. The crotch measurement is
`
`different on different garments depending on
`the fabric. Ifyou have a very stretchy
`fabric, you have, most likely, a shorter
`crotch because when you pull it up, the fabric
`stretches. Ifyou have a rigid fabric, you
`would have a longer crotch seam because the
`fabric doesn‘t stretch. So, that would
`determine how low the panel started.
`Q.
`I‘m not talking about where the
`panel starts.
`I guess I‘m talking about on a
`person's body where the bottom of the belly
`is.
`
`A. Again, depending on the height or
`body structure of a person, the -- from my
`crotch to the bottom of my belly would be
`different than somebody who was taller,
`heavier. It depends.
`Q. So, the location of the bottom of
`the belly can be impacted by someone‘s height?
`
`Page 28
`HENDRICKSON - FHGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS‘ EYES ONL
`A. That‘s correct.
`
`Q. Every once in a while, we‘ll try to
`have a little humor.
`
`A. Okay.
`Q. For women who are not pregnant,
`where will the bottom of their bellies be
`located?
`
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`A. The bottom of ones belly doesn‘t
`necessarily change depending on whether you‘re
`heavy or you‘re not heavy.
`Q.
`I don‘t understand that, I‘m sorry.
`A. My belly, where I would say my
`tummy might start coming out doesn‘t change
`depending on whether I‘m fatter ir thinner
`stage. If I‘m heavier, my belly just
`protrudes more than if I'm thinner.
`Q. How about looking across different
`women, what will impact the location of the
`bottom of their belly?
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`A. Haven‘t I answered that already?
`Q.
`Is it -- is it the same for
`non-pregnant women and pregnant women except
`
` 8
`
`

`

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`
`Yes.
`Yes to both of those?
`Yes, to both of those.
`Their weight?
`Yes. Okay, yes.
`Their body structure?
`Yes.
`
`And their height?
`
`PpPpPpPpP Yes.
`
`ampire line and the bottom of the breast area?
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`It‘s not a define where there‘s a
`A.
`very specific measurement. It is an area of
`the body.
`Q. The ampire line?
`A. Correct.
`
`Q. And ifyou look, height wise, at a
`woman, what is the range in inches of where
`the ampire line area is located?
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`It is measured from the high
`
`A.
`
`shoulder point—
`III-l
`
`Q. And is that true for all women?
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`I don‘t have a hard fast.
`I‘ve not
`A.
`measured all women.
`It‘s a range.
`Q. So if you have a woman who‘s
`five-foot tall, do you know what her -- where
`her ampire line will be located?
`A.
`I do not.
`
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`O. For a woman who‘s siX-foot tall, do
`
` 9
`
`O. For women who are not pregnant,
`will the location of the bottom of their
`belly, looking at different women be based on
`
`their body type?
`A.Ym.
`
`Weight?
`Yes.
`Body structure?
`Yes.
`And height?
`Yes.
`Anything else?
`Not that I can think of.
`
`PpPpPpPp
`
`Q. Okay. The ampire line you were
`speaking of, is there a distance between the
`
`Page 32
`HENDRICKSON - FHGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS‘ EYES ONL
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`HENDRICKSON - FHGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS‘ EYES ONL
`
`you know where her ampire line will be
`located?
`
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`I do not.
`
`A.
`
`Q. But it‘s called an ampire line?
`A. Correct.
`
`Q. So, is the ampire line 011 a
`particular person not a line?
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection; asked
`and answered.
`You can answer.
`It‘s -- it‘s a line.
`
`It‘s not
`
`A.
`
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`
`necessarily a straight line. An ampire line
`
`— can be straight across, it can be slightly
`Q. On a particular woman, one woman,
`curved.
`is the ampire line a line that goes across the
`Does that answer your question?
`body or for a particular woman is the ampire
`Q. So, on a particular person, the
`line a range?
`ampire line is a line across a person‘s body,
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`but it doesn‘t have to be a straight line?
`A. State the question again, please.
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`Q.
`I'll use you as an example. Where
`A. Yes.
`is your ampire line?
`Q. What impacts for a particular woman
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`whether the ampire line is straight or curved?
`Is it -- is it a line or is it an
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`Q.
`area on you, looking height wise?
`MR. CARTER: Let me strike that.
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`Let me strike that.
`It‘s an area. It is under the
`O. For ampire lines going across a
`A.
`bust, above the abdomen.
`woman‘s body, what different shapes can the
`
`'
`
`'
`
`(Pages 30 to 33)
`
`TSG Reporting — Worldwide
`
`877—702—9580
`
`Target Corporation Exhibit 1157
`
`Target v. DMC
`
`|PR2013-OO530, 531, 532, 533
`
`

`

`Page 34;
`HENDRICKSON - IHGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS‘ EYES ONL
`line take?
`
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`HENDRICKSON - FHGIEY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS‘ EYES ONL
`
`It‘s part of the design of the
`A.
`garment. Does the creator want a straight
`looking line, does the creator want a curved
`line, does the creator want a V look.
`Q.
`I see. So the ampire line isn‘t
`necessarily a line on a woman‘s body, it is
`where someone making a garment wants a certain
`part of the garment to fall?
`A. Can you say it one more time?
`Q. Sure. Let me back up. I thought
`the ampire line was a place on a woman‘s body
`that you can look at and say that is the
`ampire line.
`A.
`It is.
`
`Q. And for the place on a woman‘s body
`for the ampire line, is that line -- can that
`line be straight, curved or a slight V?
`A.
`I would say it can be straight or
`curved. A V is really more of a fashion style
`line.
`
`I want to try to separate fashion
`Q.
`style lines on one side compared to the
`location of the ampire line on a woman‘s body.
`A. Okay.
`
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`I don‘t understand the question.
`A.
`Q. Well, you had said that the ampire
`line can go straight across a woman‘s body,
`correct?
`A. Correct.
`
`Q. And it can also be in a curved line
`across a woman‘s body?
`A. Correct.
`
`Q. Can it take any other -- can that
`line take any other shapes across a woman‘s
`body?
`
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`It can be in a slight V.
`.
`. Anything else?
`. Not that I can think of now.
`
`Q. For a particular woman, what
`impacts whether the ampire line is straight,
`curved or a slight V?
`A.
`It‘s not determined by a woman‘s
`body. It's determined by fashion style lines.
`Q. Okay. What do you mean by fashion
`style lines?
`
`Q. Does that make sense?
`A. Um-hum.
`
`Q. So, when you're looking at an
`ampire line on a woman‘s body, what impacts
`whether the ampire line is straight or curved?
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`A. A woman‘s body is not straight so
`there really are no perfectly straight lines
`in the human anatomy. So I guess technically
`it would always be a slightly curved line
`because nothing is straight in the human body.
`Q. Okay. Is it -- can we talk about
`the curve in the shape of a C?
`A.
`I don‘t understand what you‘re
`saying there.
`Q.
`I want to see which way the curve
`is going. Is the high point of the ampire
`line curve on a woman‘s body toward her head
`or toward her feet?
`
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`It can be either.
`
`A.
`
`Q. And what determines whether the
`ampire line on a woman‘s body has the curve --
`strike that.
`
`HENDRICKSON - IHGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS‘ EYES ONL
`
`Page 36
`
`Page 37
`HENDRICKSON - FHGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS‘ EYES ONL
`
`Are you familiar with the term,
`"concave"?
`
`A. Yes, I have to remember which is
`
`concave or convex, but, yes.
`Q.
`If we think about a C and the
`opening of the C facing down or the opening of
`the C facing up for a curve, is that a fair
`way to talk about this as opposed to concave
`and convex?
`A. Sure.
`
`Q. Okay. So, for some women the
`curved ampire line, the opening of the C faces
`up?
`
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`A. Again, it probably would be more of
`a style line that could face up.
`Q. Once again, Iwant to separate --
`A.
`I understand that, but you‘re
`trying to -- an ampire line is a measurement
`from the high shoulder point and it‘s over the
`bust and in a certain area.
`It‘s a one --
`
`it‘s a points of measurement so it‘s not
`really curved. Where it extends around the
`body can be curved or can look straight. So,
`
`TSG Reporting — Worldwide
`
`877—702—9580
`
`10
`
`(Pages 34 to 37)
`
`Target Corporation Exhibit 1157
`
`Target v. DMC
`
`IPR2013-OO530, 531, 532, 533
`
`

`

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`
`I‘m not really sure where -- what you‘re
`t1yi11g to get at.
`Q. Well, I‘m not trying to get at
`anything. I‘m just trying to figure out --
`you talked about an ampire line being a line
`on a woman‘s body, correct?
`A. Yes.
`Q. And you had said that the ampire
`line on a woman‘s body is straight or curved?
`A. Yes.
`Q. But then you changed it to say
`nothing is straight on a woman‘s body so
`they‘re all curved on a woman‘s body, correct?
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`I did say that.
`A.
`Q. And then we talked about whether on
`the curve of the ampire line on a woman‘s body
`ifyou think of the curve being a C shape,
`whether the opening of the C faces up and do
`ampire lines on a woman‘s body have a curve
`shape where the opening of the C faces up?
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`A. Yes. I know you don‘t want me to
`talk about the style lines, but that, when
`
`you‘re talking about Cs going up or Cs going
`down is really a style line on a garment.
`It‘s not -- you‘re not talking about how
`you‘re measuring.
`Q. Okay. We can talk about the
`fashion styles also. I‘m just trying to
`separate talking about on a woman‘s body.
`A. An ampire line can go up or down on
`a woman‘s body depending on what the look of
`the garment you want. So, from a measurement
`point ofview, the designer determines what
`the look of the ampire line they want or how
`they want it measured. So there is an area
`that‘s defined as below the bust and above the
`abdomen, that‘s the ampire area. But it can
`-- you can have style lines or measurement
`lines that go up or down depending on what
`you‘re looking for.
`Q. Okay. Aside from using this for a
`fashion style, without any clothes on a
`woman‘s body, can you look at a woman‘s body
`and see where the ampire line is?
`A. Yes.
`Q. Okay. And for some woman, will
`
`
`
`Page 40
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`
`that ampire line have the opening of the C
`facing down?
`MS. DUVDEVANI: Objection.
`A. Yes.
`Q. And for some women, once again,
`without clothes on, will they have the opening