throbber
Page 254
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` __________________________
` :
` FACEBOOK, INC., LINKEDIN :
` CORP., and TWITTER, INC., :
` :
` Petitioners : Case
` : Nos. IPR2013-00478
` v. : IPR2013-00479
` : IPR2013-00480
` SOFTWARE RIGHTS ARCHIVE, : IPR2013-00481
` LLC, :
` Patent Owner :
` __________________________:
`
` Volume 2 of 2
`
` VIDEOTAPE DEPOSITION of PAUL S. JACOBS,
` Ph.D., taken before Ryan K. Black, RPR, CLR
` Notary Public, in and for the District of
` Columbia, at the offices of Rothwell, Figg,
` Ernst & Manbeck, P.C., 607 14th Street, N.W.,
` Washington, D.C., on Wednesday, August 6, 2014,
` commencing at 9:06 a.m.
`
` Veritext Legal Solutions
` Mid-Atlantic Region
` 1250 Eye Street, NW - Suite 1201
` Washington, D.C. 20005
`
`VERITEXT NATIONAL COURT REPORTING COMPANY
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`1
`
`2 3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`001
`
`Facebook, Inc. - EXHIBIT 1235
`
`

`

`Page 255
`
` A P P E A R A N C E S:
`
` ROTHWELL, FIGG, ERNST & MANBECK, P.C.
` By: MARTIN ZOLTICK, ESQ.
` MICHAEL JONES, ESQ.
` 607 14th Street, N.W., Suite 800
` Washington, D.C. 20005
` 202.783.6040
` Representing - Software Rights Archive, LLC
`
` DINOVO PRICE ELLWANGER & HARDY LLP
` By: VICTOR G. HARDY, ESQ.
` MITCH YANG, ESQ.
` 7000 North MoPac Expressway, Suite 350
` Austin, Texas 78731
` 512.539.2626
` Representing - Software Rights Archive, LLC
`
` KEKER & VAN NEST
` By: DAVID J. SILBERT, ESQ.
` 633 Battery Street
` San Francisco, California 94111
` 415.676.2261
` Representing - LinkedIn Corp. & Twitter, Inc.
`
` COOLEY LLP
` By: LOWELL MEAD, ESQ.
` 3175 Hanover Street
` Palo Alto, California 94304
` 650.849.5734
` Representing - Facebook, Inc.
`
` ALSO PRESENT:
`
` Edward A. Fox, Ph.D
` Amy Langville, Ph.D.
` Jason Levin, Legal Videographer
`
`VERITEXT NATIONAL COURT REPORTING COMPANY
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`1
`
`2 3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`24
`25
`
`002
`
`Facebook, Inc. - EXHIBIT 1235
`
`

`

`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 256
`
` I N D E X
`
` TESTIMONY OF: PAUL S. JACOBS, Ph.D
`
` BY MR. SILBERT.............................257
`
` BY MR. MEAD................................293
`
` BY MR. HARDY...............................389
`
` - - -
`
` E X H I B I T S
`
` - - -
`
` NUMBER DESCRIPTION MARKED
`
` Petitioner
`
` No. 1036 a document titled Text-based
`
` Intelligence Systems..............257
`
` Ptnt Owner
`
` No. 2116 an uncertified rough draft
`
` Transcript of Dr. Jacobs'
`
` deposition testimony given on
`
` August 5, 2014, morning session...388
`
` Ptnt Owner
`
` No. 2117 an uncertified rough draft transcript
`
` of Dr. Jacobs' deposition testimony
`
` given on August 5, 2014...........403
`
`VERITEXT NATIONAL COURT REPORTING COMPANY
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`003
`
`Facebook, Inc. - EXHIBIT 1235
`
`

`

`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 257
`
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This begins Volume
`
` 2 in the deposition of Paul Jacobs. The witness
`
` has been previously sworn in. We're going on
`
` record at 9:06 a.m.
`
` CROSS EXAMINATION (Cont'd)
`
` BY MR. SILBERT:
`
` Q. Good morning, Dr. Jacobs.
`
` MR. SILBERT: I'm going to ask the
`
` court reporter to mark this document as Exhibit
`
` 1036.
`
` (Petitioner's Deposition Exhibit No.
`
` 1036, a document titled Text-Based Intelligence
`
` Systems, was marked.)
`
` BY MR. SILBERT:
`
` Q. And, Dr. Jacobs, please review Exhibit
`
` 1036 as much as you'd like, but my question,
`
` when you're through reviewing it is, do you
`
` recognize this exhibit as a copy of the book
`
` that you edited, titled Text-Based Intelligence
`
` Systems? And then the subtitle is, Current
`
` Research and Practice in Information Extraction
`
` and Retrieval.
`
` A. Yes. I haven't reviewed the whole
`
` thing, but -- but, yes, I recognize it.
`
` Q. Okay. Could I ask you to please
`
`VERITEXT NATIONAL COURT REPORTING COMPANY
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`004
`
`Facebook, Inc. - EXHIBIT 1235
`
`

`

`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 258
`
` -- well, strike that.
`
` This book was published in 1992,
`
` correct?
`
` A. That's the -- that's the copyright
`
` date on the copyright page. I'm not sure if
`
` that actually means, necessarily, that it was
`
` published in that year, but -- but that's the
`
` copyright date.
`
` Q. Do you know when it was published?
`
` A. No. I'm not certain. And the reason
`
` I'm not certain whether it's 1991 or 1992 is,
`
` it's possible that it actually went to press in
`
` 1991, with a 1992 copyright date.
`
` Q. If it was -- if it went to press in
`
` 1992, do you know the month in 1992 that it went
`
` to press?
`
` A. I -- I don't recall. That was 22
`
` years ago, and I really don't recall exactly
`
` which month it would have been.
`
` Q. The book collects papers that were
`
` presented at a symposium in 1990; is that
`
` correct?
`
` A. I recall that this book was based
`
` on a AAAI symposium that I chaired, that I
`
` believe was in the AAAI spring symposium series.
`
`VERITEXT NATIONAL COURT REPORTING COMPANY
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`005
`
`Facebook, Inc. - EXHIBIT 1235
`
`

`

`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 259
`
` And to the best of my recollection, that
`
` symposium was held in the spring of 1990.
`
` Q. Yeah. I'm just looking at the -- if
`
` you look at the preface, which has the Page
`
` Roman Numeral vii, small vii, it's after the
`
` table of contents, it says, this volume started
`
` with a symposium in 1990, sponsored by AAAI,
`
` entitled, Text-Based Intelligence Systems.
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. Would you please turn to Page
`
` 127?
`
` Are you there?
`
` A. Mm-hmm.
`
` Q. Do you see the title of this paper is,
`
` Text Retrieval and Inference?
`
` A. Text Retrieval and Inference, yes.
`
` Q. And it's got two authors. One is W.
`
` Bruce Croft, and the other is Howard R. Turtle;
`
` is that correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And it says that Mr. Turtle worked for
`
` West Publishing Company, correct?
`
` A. That's what it says, yes.
`
` Q. And West Publishing Company is the
`
`VERITEXT NATIONAL COURT REPORTING COMPANY
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`006
`
`Facebook, Inc. - EXHIBIT 1235
`
`

`

`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 260
`
` company that publishes the Westlaw legal
`
` database, correct?
`
` A. Yes. But you said is, so I assume
`
` you meant at the time of this publication that
`
` that's what it would have been called.
`
` Q. Yes. Okay. Thank you. I had -- that
`
` is right.
`
` A. Right.
`
` Q. Thanks for that clarification.
`
` Yes. That at the -- at -- at the time
`
` of this publication, West Publishing Company
`
` published the Westlaw legal database; is that
`
` correct?
`
` A. That's my understanding, yes.
`
` Q. Okay. Would you please look at Page
`
` 130?
`
` Are you there?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. I'm going to start reading from the
`
` first full paragraph on that page. It says,
`
` within the information retrieval community, a
`
` number of techniques have been developed that
`
` can represent the content of documents
`
` and -- and information needs. These
`
` representations have a much different flavor
`
`VERITEXT NATIONAL COURT REPORTING COMPANY
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`007
`
`Facebook, Inc. - EXHIBIT 1235
`
`

`

`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 261
`
` than NLP representations. They are generally
`
` based on simple, very general features of
`
` documents; e.g., words, citations, and represent
`
` simple relationships between features; e.g.,
`
` phrases, and between documents; e.g., two
`
` documents cite the same document.
`
` And I'll stop reading there.
`
` Now, two documents citing the same
`
` document, that's the relationship known as
`
` bibliographic coupling, correct?
`
` A. Yes. In an abstract sense, if two
`
` documents cite the same document, they are
`
` bibliographically coupled.
`
` Q. Okay. And in the language of the
`
` patents, that's an indirect relationship between
`
` documents, correct?
`
` A. No. That's not really correct.
`
` Q. Why not?
`
` A. Because in the language of the patent,
`
` indirect relationships is used in claims that
`
` have other specific language related to objects
`
` in databases.
`
` Q. Okay. And do you recall in the
`
` patent -- the patents, and we can get them out,
`
` but they -- they provide a figure where they
`
`VERITEXT NATIONAL COURT REPORTING COMPANY
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`008
`
`Facebook, Inc. - EXHIBIT 1235
`
`

`

`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 262
`
` show a number of different relationships between
`
` documents?
`
` I believe it's --
`
` A. Yeah. Why don't you show me
`
` specifically what we're discussing?
`
` Q. Okay. Do you have any of the -- any
`
` of the patents in front of you?
`
` A. I believe the answer is, no, because
`
` my --
`
` Q. Oh, we had the water spillage.
`
` A. Yeah. We had the water damage
`
` yesterday.
`
` Let's see. No. No. No. I do have
`
` another. I think Dr. Fox gave me another copy.
`
` So I -- I have a copy -- oh, this is a different
`
` one. Yeah, I have a copy of the '494 patent.
`
` Q. Okay. Would you please look at Figure
`
` 6 of the '494 patent, which is titled, Schematic
`
` Representations of the 18 Primary Patterns?
`
` Do you have that in front of you?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Now, the second -- no, it
`
` would be -- do you see one of these that
`
` corresponds to bibliographic coupling?
`
` A. No.
`
`VERITEXT NATIONAL COURT REPORTING COMPANY
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`009
`
`Facebook, Inc. - EXHIBIT 1235
`
`

`

`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 263
`
` Q. Okay. Is it -- is it your opinion
`
` that bibliographic coupling between documents is
`
` not an indirect relationship between documents,
`
` as the patent uses the term indirect
`
` relationship?
`
` MR. HARDY: Objection; form.
`
` THE WITNESS: No. That's not my
`
` opinion.
`
` BY MR. SILBERT:
`
` Q. Okay. So then do you think that
`
` bibliographic coupling between documents is an
`
` indirect relationship between documents, as the
`
` patent uses the term indirect relationship?
`
` A. Okay. So your question says, as the
`
` patent uses the term indirect relationship, --
`
` Q. Well, we --
`
` A. -- so should we look at a particular
`
` claim where that's used so I can be more
`
` specific about it?
`
` Q. I don't mean to interrupt. If
`
` you'd like, you can look at the -- the PTAB's
`
` claim construction, which is relation -- of
`
` indirect relationships, which is relationships,
`
` where at least one intermediate object exists
`
` between two objects, and where the intermediate
`
`VERITEXT NATIONAL COURT REPORTING COMPANY
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`010
`
`Facebook, Inc. - EXHIBIT 1235
`
`

`

`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 264
`
` objects connect the two objects through a chain
`
` of citations.
`
` A. Okay. So which -- which institution
`
` decision are we talking about?
`
` Q. Well, this one --
`
` A. You're referring to the claim
`
` construction in the institution decision?
`
` Q. In the '352, --
`
` A. The '352 decision?
`
` Q. -- yeah, but I think it's the same.
`
` Actually, in the '494, it appears to
`
` be slightly different.
`
` A. Mm-hmm.
`
` Q. It's relationships that are
`
` characterized by at least one intermediate node
`
` between two nodes, so under either of those
`
` constructions.
`
` A. Either?
`
` And, again, are we talking about
`
` -- you said, as used in the patent, so can we
`
` refer to a specific claim?
`
` Q. I'm referring to the claim
`
` construction. I'm referring to the term as
`
` it's been construed by the P -- PTAB.
`
` A. Independent of -- you -- you did say
`
`VERITEXT NATIONAL COURT REPORTING COMPANY
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`011
`
`Facebook, Inc. - EXHIBIT 1235
`
`

`

`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 265
`
` the way it's used in the patent.
`
` MR. HARDY: Objection.
`
` BY MR. SILBERT:
`
` Q. My question is -- my question is,
`
` referring to the claim constructions of indirect
`
` relationship that I've just recited for you, is
`
` bibliographic coupling an indirect relationship
`
` between documents?
`
` MR. HARDY: Objection; form.
`
` THE WITNESS: You haven't given me
`
` enough information to say.
`
` BY MR. SILBERT:
`
` Q. Why not?
`
` A. Because, first of all, my opinions
`
` are based on the way the terms are used in the
`
` patent. And, second, the Board's construction
`
` refers to objects, in the case of '352, and
`
` nodes, in the case of the other example you gave
`
` me, which I believe was the '494.
`
` And bibliographic coupling, as I tried
`
` to explain in my earlier answer is -- is an ab
`
` -- describes an abstract relationship that could
`
` be just referring to the bibliographies
`
` of paper documents. So there's not enough
`
` information.
`
`VERITEXT NATIONAL COURT REPORTING COMPANY
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`012
`
`Facebook, Inc. - EXHIBIT 1235
`
`

`

`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 266
`
` Q. Okay. So your testimony is that,
`
` if two documents are bibliographically coupled,
`
` you're unable to tell whether that means they
`
` have an indirect relationship with each other
`
` under the PTAB's constructions of indirect
`
` relationship?
`
` MR. HARDY: Objection; form.
`
` Objection; scope.
`
` THE WITNESS: I said I would be able
`
` to if you gave me enough information.
`
` BY MR. SILBERT:
`
` Q. But they -- but -- but with the
`
` information that the two documents are
`
` bibliographically coupled with each other,
`
` you're unable to determine whether they're
`
` indirectly related under the PTAB's
`
` constructions of indirect relationship?
`
` THE WITNESS: Can you read back the
`
` question, please?
`
` THE REPORTER: Sure.
`
` (Referred-to testimony read back.)
`
` THE WITNESS: What do you mean by
`
` unable?
`
` BY MR. SILBERT:
`
` Q. Well, I thought you told me you
`
`VERITEXT NATIONAL COURT REPORTING COMPANY
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`013
`
`Facebook, Inc. - EXHIBIT 1235
`
`

`

`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 267
`
` couldn't answer the question.
`
` A. I said that I could not answer
`
` the question because there was not enough
`
` information.
`
` Q. Okay. Would you -- do you still have
`
` the '494 patent in front of you?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Would you turn to Column 14, please?
`
` Do you have that in front of you?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Would you look at Line 27, Pattern
`
` Number 2, it says, A cites C and B cites C.
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Does that correspond to bibliographic
`
` coupling?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. I'll state for the record,
`
` I -- it appears to me there might be a typo
`
` in Figure 6 of this patent, which I had never
`
` noticed before.
`
` But, in any event, would you please
`
` now turn back to Exhibit 1036, the copy of your
`
` book, and back to Page 130, which is the page we
`
` were looking at before?
`
`VERITEXT NATIONAL COURT REPORTING COMPANY
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`014
`
`Facebook, Inc. - EXHIBIT 1235
`
`

`

`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 268
`
` So just to get our frame of reference,
`
` again, I'll -- I'll, again, read the text that
`
` I'm focusing on. It's the first full paragraph
`
` on Page 130. It says, within the information
`
` retrieval community, a number of techniques have
`
` been developed that can represent the content of
`
` documents and information needs. These
`
` representations have a much different flavor
`
` than NLP representations. They are generally
`
` based on simple, very general features of
`
` documents; e.g., words, citations, and represent
`
` simple relationships between features; e.g.,
`
` phrases, and between documents; e.g., two
`
` documents cite the same document.
`
` Do you -- do you agree, based
`
` on reading this passage, that, as of at
`
` least 1992 when your book was published, using
`
` bibliographic coupling for search was nothing
`
` new?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Why not?
`
` A. So that's a very broad que --
`
` question. Would you like me to focus on this
`
` paragraph of my book, in particular?
`
` Q. Sure.
`
`VERITEXT NATIONAL COURT REPORTING COMPANY
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`015
`
`Facebook, Inc. - EXHIBIT 1235
`
`

`

`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 269
`
` A. Okay. So what -- this paragraph
`
` discusses techniques used in the information
`
` retrieval community. It's from the book, as
`
` we've discussed, that presents leading-edge
`
` research, at least as of 1990, in information
`
` retrieval. And -- and that's very broad-based.
`
` As you can see, it discusses Natural
`
` Language Processing and a variety of other
`
` techniques. My own research area was Natural
`
` Language Processing.
`
` And this discusses document
`
` representations. There is no question that
`
` the use of citations, and even co-citations, for
`
` example, as -- in -- in the general area of
`
` document representations, had been explored
`
` between at least -- well, in the case of
`
` bibliographic coupling, 1963; in the case of
`
` co-citations, at least 1972.
`
` So those concepts as concepts in
`
` the area of document representation, which is
`
` certainly a fundamental component of information
`
` retrieval, had been in existence for quite some
`
` time, at the time of publication of this, 27
`
` years.
`
` So this -- this paragraph does explain
`
`VERITEXT NATIONAL COURT REPORTING COMPANY
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`016
`
`Facebook, Inc. - EXHIBIT 1235
`
`

`

`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 270
`
` that the -- the use of bibliographic coupling,
`
` for example, in information retrieval, the part
`
` of information retrieval concerned with document
`
` representations was -- was not new. But that
`
` does not say that those representations were
`
` used in search, per se. It doesn't say anything
`
` about that.
`
` Q. Okay. Are -- are you familiar
`
` with this article that the -- that this
`
` quotation is from? I mean, you obviously read
`
` it some time ago. Have you read it recently?
`
` A. Okay. There were multiple questions
`
` in there. You want to take it apart so that I
`
` can answer?
`
` Q. Sure. How familiar are you, as you
`
` sit here today, with this Croft and Turtle
`
` article that we're looking at?
`
` A. I am not very familiar with it
`
` today, because I do not recall having reviewed
`
` this particular article since I read it in
`
` preparation for the publication of my book,
`
` which, as you saw, was around 1991.
`
` Q. Do you -- is it your testimony that a
`
` person of ordinary skill in the art, reading the
`
` passage that we've read, would not understand
`
`VERITEXT NATIONAL COURT REPORTING COMPANY
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`017
`
`Facebook, Inc. - EXHIBIT 1235
`
`

`

`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 271
`
` that a document representation, such as is -- is
`
` described here, could be used for search?
`
` A. Okay. I -- in order to answer
`
` that question, I really have to respond to two
`
` different aspects of the question. One is, can
`
` document representations be used for search?
`
` And the second aspect is, if there is research
`
` in a particular document representation, does
`
` that mean that that representation could be used
`
` for search.
`
` So with respect to the first part,
`
` one of ordinary skill would understand, in
`
` general -- I'm not sure how much this paragraph
`
` contributes, but one of ordinary skill would
`
` understand that document representations, in
`
` general, could be used for search.
`
` Now, that said, there was a great
`
` deal of research on document representations,
`
` and this mentions a number of different
`
` representations, and certainly implies that
`
` Natural Language Processing, for example, can
`
` be used as a way of contributing to a document
`
` representation -- now -- as well as some of
`
` these other methods, such as citations and
`
` phrases, which are characterized here as being
`
`VERITEXT NATIONAL COURT REPORTING COMPANY
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`018
`
`Facebook, Inc. - EXHIBIT 1235
`
`

`

`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 272
`
` separate Natural Language Processing.
`
` Now, the -- the fact that something
`
` can be used as a document representation,
`
` in theory, means that that might be used for
`
` search. But one of ordinary skill would
`
` understand that the results of using such a
`
` representation would depend on the quality of
`
` the representation and on empirical results in
`
` terms of whether it worked or not.
`
` So in the case, for example, of some
`
` of these advanced methods that we were exploring
`
` -- exploring, like, Natural Language Processing,
`
` a lot of the data indicated that, even if
`
` high-quality, high-accuracy representations were
`
` available using NLP, it -- it would likely fail
`
` to contribute to the empirical results and
`
` search accuracy. And the same happened to be
`
` true, as Dr. Fox's work showed, in the area of
`
` representations such as co-citation.
`
` So I don't think this particular
`
` paragraph sheds any light on whether a -- a
`
` particular representation should be used for
`
` search, and, at -- at most, in the abstract,
`
` says that -- that -- that these areas of
`
` different representations of documents have
`
`VERITEXT NATIONAL COURT REPORTING COMPANY
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`019
`
`Facebook, Inc. - EXHIBIT 1235
`
`

`

`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 273
`
` been explored.
`
` Q. Okay. So you -- in your opinion, this
`
` passage doesn't say anything about which is the
`
` best type of representation to use for search.
`
` Is that fair?
`
` A. Or even which ones would be effective
`
` or useful at all.
`
` Q. Okay. But -- but you agree
`
` that this passage does teach that a document
`
` representation that includes bibliographic
`
` coupling relationships has been used for search?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Why not?
`
` A. This paragraph says that within the
`
` information retrieval community, techniques for
`
` document representations, such as representing
`
` simple relationships between documents, such as
`
` two documents cite the same document, have been
`
` developed.
`
` So it -- it does say that the
`
` technique of representing relationships,
`
` such as bibliographic coupling in the
`
` information retrieval community had been
`
` developed. That does not say what those
`
` representations had been used for, and, in
`
`VERITEXT NATIONAL COURT REPORTING COMPANY
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`020
`
`Facebook, Inc. - EXHIBIT 1235
`
`

`

`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 274
`
` particular, does not say that they had been used
`
` for search. It doesn't say that co-citation has
`
` been used for search in this particular
`
` paragraph. So one of ordinary skill would not
`
` understand from this paragraph that it says
`
` that.
`
` Q. Okay. But it does say, you agree,
`
` that one representation form of a document is
`
` to include bibliographic coupling information in
`
` the representation, correct?
`
` THE WITNESS: Could you read back the
`
` question, please?
`
` THE REPORTER: Sure.
`
` (Referred-to testimony read back.)
`
` THE WITNESS: It's a little bit
`
` convoluted, but -- but, basically, it does
`
` say that you can include bibliographic coupling
`
` information in a document representation.
`
` BY MR. SILBERT:
`
` Q. Okay. Would you look down a few
`
` paragraphs to the one that starts, given?
`
` That sentence says, given the availability of a
`
` number of representation techniques that capture
`
` some of the meaning of a document or information
`
` need, our -- our basic premise is that decisions
`
`VERITEXT NATIONAL COURT REPORTING COMPANY
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`021
`
`Facebook, Inc. - EXHIBIT 1235
`
`

`

`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` about which documents match an information need
`
` should make use of as many of the representation
`
`Page 275
`
` forms as practical.
`
` A. Mm-hmm.
`
` Q. Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Doesn't that teach that what these
`
` authors are proposing is that people should
`
` use as many of the representation forms,
`
` including -- as possible, including the ones
`
` that they have just itemized above?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Why not?
`
` A. Because --
`
` THE WITNESS: Can you read back the
`
` question, please?
`
` THE REPORTER: Sure.
`
` (Referred-to testimony read back.)
`
` THE WITNESS: Okay. There
`
` are at least two problems with the way you
`
` characterized this paragraph. First is that,
`
` you're assuming the representation forms must
`
` include all of the representation forms that are
`
` mentioned elsewhere in this document. I don't
`
` know that that's correct.
`
`VERITEXT NATIONAL COURT REPORTING COMPANY
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`022
`
`Facebook, Inc. - EXHIBIT 1235
`
`

`

`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 276
`
` And the second problem is that, you
`
` used the word possible. And this specifically
`
` says, our premise is that decisions about
`
` what -- which documents match an information
`
` need should make use of as many of the
`
` representation forms as practical.
`
` Now, as I explained at the time of
`
` publication of this article, there's a lot of
`
` research that's reported here that -- that, in
`
` some ways, may have looked promising, but in the
`
` case of an information retrieval -- a particular
`
` information retrieval system, would have viewed
`
` as being impractical.
`
` So, for example, my own research
`
` area was semantic interpretation. There were
`
` elements of semantic interpretation that might
`
` have been useful and practical in information
`
` retrieval systems, but there were many others
`
` that would have been viewed as -- as not helpful
`
` and impractical. And, as I've said, many of
`
` these citation techniques could also be
`
` characterized as not helpful and impractical.
`
` So in the context of this
`
` statement, one of ordinary skill would, under
`
` no circumstances, have -- have assumed that it
`
`VERITEXT NATIONAL COURT REPORTING COMPANY
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`023
`
`Facebook, Inc. - EXHIBIT 1235
`
`

`

`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 277
`
` would have been practical to use, for example,
`
` bibliographic coupling. And so it really
`
` doesn't -- it really doesn't teach what you --
`
` what you said, in terms of using as many as
`
` possible at all. It teaches something contrary
`
` to that. The word very practical is different
`
` from possible.
`
` BY MR. SILBERT:
`
` Q. Can you go back to the paragraph
`
` above, the one we were reading previously, that
`
` refers to the representations that represent
`
` simple relationships between features and
`
` between documents; e.g., two documents cite to
`
` the same document?
`
` Do you have that language in front of
`
` you?
`
` A. I -- I -- I have the paragraph in
`
` front of me. I don't believe you read it
`
` correctly.
`
` Q. Yeah. Okay.
`
` The -- the next sentence says,
`
` the focus here is on simple but general
`
` representations that can be applied to most
`
` texts, rather than on specialized techniques,
`
` which capture more information, but are
`
`VERITEXT NATIONAL COURT REPORTING COMPANY
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`024
`
`Facebook, Inc. - EXHIBIT 1235
`
`

`

`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 278
`
` applicable only in narrow contexts.
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Do you understand that to say that
`
` the representations that are described in the
`
` preceding sentence or sentences are viewed by
`
` these authors as simple, general representations
`
` that can be applied to most texts?
`
`

This document is available on Docket Alarm but you must sign up to view it.


Or .

Accessing this document will incur an additional charge of $.

After purchase, you can access this document again without charge.

Accept $ Charge
throbber

Still Working On It

This document is taking longer than usual to download. This can happen if we need to contact the court directly to obtain the document and their servers are running slowly.

Give it another minute or two to complete, and then try the refresh button.

throbber

A few More Minutes ... Still Working

It can take up to 5 minutes for us to download a document if the court servers are running slowly.

Thank you for your continued patience.

This document could not be displayed.

We could not find this document within its docket. Please go back to the docket page and check the link. If that does not work, go back to the docket and refresh it to pull the newest information.

Your account does not support viewing this document.

You need a Paid Account to view this document. Click here to change your account type.

Your account does not support viewing this document.

Set your membership status to view this document.

With a Docket Alarm membership, you'll get a whole lot more, including:

  • Up-to-date information for this case.
  • Email alerts whenever there is an update.
  • Full text search for other cases.
  • Get email alerts whenever a new case matches your search.

Become a Member

One Moment Please

The filing “” is large (MB) and is being downloaded.

Please refresh this page in a few minutes to see if the filing has been downloaded. The filing will also be emailed to you when the download completes.

Your document is on its way!

If you do not receive the document in five minutes, contact support at support@docketalarm.com.

Sealed Document

We are unable to display this document, it may be under a court ordered seal.

If you have proper credentials to access the file, you may proceed directly to the court's system using your government issued username and password.


Access Government Site

We are redirecting you
to a mobile optimized page.





Document Unreadable or Corrupt

Refresh this Document
Go to the Docket

We are unable to display this document.

Refresh this Document
Go to the Docket